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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

Stuff said:
If only nerfs and buffs were based on tournament showings.

We'd have the most OP Fortune yet. and squigly. and big band.
Squigly and Big Band not so much, and they got to top 8 at EVO.

Some dumbass used them with point Fukua or something.
 
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Meter benefits for solo while nice, won't really make much meaningful impact (at least in my style of play) in comparison to all-round-useful red health regen factor that compliments the tank playstyle(Unless it's at a stupidly high rate) of a solo since the nature of solo ratio lacks meter reliant utility that are more lively present in Duo/trio matches.

It boils down to supers and occasional snapbacks (to eliminate massive red life injured tagged out teammates and punish stupid happy birthday sources) and as of now I never had matches where it makes me think "Damn wish I got a bit more meter" (this can vary between character though) as opposed to health since the natural higher solo damage output can offset the meter reliance to an extent.

Won't complain though if we get that because in the end it's a better deal of cards then what solo initially had and solo has always slowly gained indirect buffs when teams got nerfed.
 
Zidiane said:
Can't really talk about the red life changes too hard since I haven't played it, but I feel like losing all the red life off of stray hits or projectiles would suck. What if it was just grabs and supers that killed all the red health?

On meter gain, I don't know about other people, but I never really feel like meter is something I'm in need of as a solo. Don't need meter for DHC's or Alpha Counters like teams, so other than using supers in a combo there's rare use for meter. And not many characters have supers they can just use solo (unless they make a read with a reversal super and in fact have a reversal super), and between landing hits and getting hit you kinda have all the meter you need most of the time.

Yeah, that sounds harsh.

What about making it just like on teams? A double-snap removes all red health. Gives teams a reason to use the meter on a double snap in a solo match. Also gives a meaningful choice. Go for damage or eliminate the chance to regenerate. That actually sounds kind of fucking cool to me.

@Number 13

That's what I was talking about above. It will actually benefit PW since Thresher is a good reversal. It will probably benefit Squigs since she uses meter really well. But on some of the cast it would have almost zero effect.
 
Mike_Z said:
It's not a crossup now, though, and that's not the comparison used. It's a 17f safe-on-block overhead, and that's counting the jump startup frames.

I was going on the fact that when I was testing this last night, super jump IAD crossup j.HK was still working on most up backing not-tall members of the cast.

With today's stuff yeah this makes sense, Filia can use air dash to convert. Still, I don't know how many upbacking people are going to get hit by a same side j.HK and make the techable landing relevant. and again, from my experience j.HK is almost solely used as a mixup tool so doubt we'll see it, and in effect the techable bounch, in neutral at a relevant amount.

If she's going to not be able to crossup at ALL I almost don't see the point of techable bounce.

I won't pretend to have a good opinion until I've spent some time. OMW to play a set with someone and find out how same side Filia feels.
 
also I forgot ringlet spike buffs were a thing now

Them always being in the corner and not off-screen is a great quality of life change. I don't really know what making it +/- 0 on block adds. I won't complain, I just don't see why it should be.
 
Beamsprouts said:
also I forgot ringlet spike buffs were a thing now

Them always being in the corner and not off-screen is a great quality of life change. I don't really know what making it +/- 0 on block adds. I won't complain, I just don't see why it should be.
Because the slow startup, I would say. That way you can throw her before getting hit with it.
 
Beamsprouts said:
Still, I don't know how many upbacking people are going to get hit by a same side j.HK and make the techable landing relevant.

No one because upback becomes high block during pre-block, so same-side j.HK will just get blocked normally.

The other use that j.HK has other that being used for mixups/crossups is for movement.

You can extend your airdash with j.HK and pause your descent. It's kind of hard to do that now if you just stop at the opponent regardless of how high above them you are. I'm pretty sure most people don't play Filia to run away with her.
 
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worldjem said:
No one because upback becomes high block during pre-block, so same-side j.HK will just get blocked normally.
BULL

SHIT.

Up back gets hit by mids and highs. All the time. But I don't blame you, because your logic makes sense and is the logic I wish applied to chicken blocking.

Edit: Though the window to do so is small.
 
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worldjem said:
No one because upback becomes high block during pre-block, so same-side j.HK will just get blocked normally.

That's the point. I was being passive aggressive.
 
guitalex2007 said:
BULL

SHIT.

Up back gets hit by mids and highs. All the time. But I don't blame you, because your logic makes sense and is the logic I wish applied to chicken blocking.

Edit: Though the window to do so is small.
Only if those mids or highs are assists, projectiles, or done from outside pre-block range. (Way beyond Filia j.hk range for sure)
 
Beamsprouts said:
If she's going to not be able to crossup at ALL I almost don't see the point of techable bounce.
Didn't read that long thing I wrote? Glad to have wasted that time.

Zidiane said:
Can't really talk about the red life changes too hard since I haven't played it, but I feel like losing all the red life off of stray hits or projectiles would suck.
Maybe play it before talking, then...?
There's always the option to not get hit, by say blocking, plus you have 1.5 seconds after recovering from hitstun or blockstun in which you can get hit and keep the red life.
I'm gonna wait and see what kind of difference the meter makes for like, Shin AT-Proof, probably.

If solos were going to work like teams then they would lose all remaining red health whenever their life went below 2/3 or 1/3 left, do 2/3 the amount of damage they currently do, and combos on them after a snapback wallbounce would not trigger IPS until they lost 1/3 of their lifebar. Hmm...

And yeah I'm not a fan of Filia stopping when she's nowhere near them vertically, I think I can fix that, but I wanted to see if I could get rid of it crossing up first. I don't want to do crossup protection because 1) I think it's a bad idea generally since it actively punishes the person who was able to set up a crossup, and 2) having it on only one attack in the entire game is weird. I'd rather leave her with the crossup if it comes to that.
Honestly I was fine with her having an IAD crossup, just not an ambiguous one off simple dashjump j.HK. If I can fix that it will probably be good enough.

guitalex2007 said:
Up back gets hit by mids and highs.
Upback gets hit by mid/high assists or moves that have the character standing outside preblock range, because those don't cause preblock. If they are standing next to you upback will not get hit by anything that is not a low, so same-side j.HK loses to upback fully.

Okay, enough Skullheart for now, reading everyone's dissenting opinions justified by shaky understanding of the game makes me envy Capcom's disengagement.
 
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Ok... Then I summon @cloudking to tell me how the fuck a Valentine j.hp hit me while up backing in the corner. On point.

Pretty sure you hit me out of prejump because I was still standing.

...wait isn't there a one frame unblockable against Val using Val?
 
It's because Val's j.HP can cross you up on the same side.
 
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worldjem said:
It's because Val's j.HP can cross you up on the same side.
..........I'm sure that's totally fine....

:-\
 
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Mike_Z said:
Didn't read that long thing I wrote? Glad to have wasted that time.

Yes, because I clearly didn't acknowledge what you have said or done at all, and haven't expressed that I'm thankful for all the work you put in.

Mike_Z said:
I am confused how "guessing wrong, taking the hit, and being able to ground tech if Filia did not airdash cancel or Gregor to combo" is not "getting hit by it".

Beamsprouts said:
With today's stuff yeah this makes sense, Filia can use air dash to convert.

I didn't acknowledge what you said about being able to convert not being a problem. I ignored your post.

Mike_Z said:
Filia - j.HK, 13f: large disjoint hitbox, safe on block, can be used as an instant overhead while rising, airdash cancellable to combo vs air without OTGing anywhere, can also Gregor or Hairball to combo after midstage, stops her momentum making it useful for movement. Not even gonna count the "could randomly crossup". Causes...red bounce, allowing free combos even if you are not fast enough to confirm the hit and combo without OTGing?

Beamsprouts said:
j.HK is almost solely used as a mixup tool

I brought this up because I am ignorant, not because the horizontal range and air to air power of a move are relevant to whether or not you should get to convert off it. I ignored your post.

Again. There's almost no situation where someone would get hit by a raw j.HK and the techable bounce would become relevant EXCEPT as a reset.

But, you know, what you said makes sense because jumping and using unchained j.HK a lot in neutral is currently giving Filia players so many free converts and combos.
 
can we not go the smart ass route?

Mike wanted input, we gave our sentiments and he replies with extensive detail.

my only question. why did it take you so long to change this one thing about filia?
 
Mike_Z said:
Maybe play it before talking, then...?
My Steam SG experience isn't so good, so I'll probably never play this change if it ain't permanent. There are precious few Solos around so I thought saying something would be better than not. Though my not saying anything about any beta change is probably fine too.
 
I'm not sure how to put into words how I feel about the newer j.HK change for Filia.

It feels... janky? I mean, I get that it just completely halts her if you are crossing over your opponent, but its just really weird that it does it at any height, or that it happens at all.

Is there an issue with her keeping the crossup from a super jump? Unless I'm mistaken, a SJ IAD j.HK is slower than one from a regular jump, no? Isn't Filia's "thing" supposed to be that she is hard to block once she is in your zone? Valentine has a close range cross-up overhead, and with this change, Filia wouldn't even have that.
 
RemiKz said:
I'm not sure how to put into words how I feel about the newer j.HK change for Filia.

It feels... janky? I mean, I get that it just completely halts her if you are crossing over your opponent, but its just really weird that it does it at any height, or that it happens at all.

Is there an issue with her keeping the crossup from a super jump? Unless I'm mistaken, a SJ IAD j.HK is slower than one from a regular jump, no? Isn't Filia's "thing" supposed to be that she is hard to block once she is in your zone?

it wouldn't surprise me if he blatantly said "i don't want j hk to be a mixup tool anymore"

i'm waiting for it.
 
Zidiane said:
My Steam SG experience isn't so good, so I'll probably never play this change if it ain't permanent. There are precious few Solos around so I thought saying something would be better than not. Though my not saying anything about any beta change is probably fine too.

Yeah this is how I felt too. I gave it the a college try yesterday, but the lobby wonked out on me, and I couldn't find another lobby/QM after that. Anything I say is a first impression, but I hope to get some in tomorrow (big test so can't play tonight, likely).
 
Mike_Z said:
There's always the option to not get hit, by say blocking, plus you have 1.5 seconds after recovering from hitstun or blockstun in which you can get hit and keep the red life.
I'm gonna wait and see what kind of difference the meter makes for like, Shin AT-Proof, probably.

@Pikmario kumite and a @Outlaw_Spike kumite

aggressive solo and defensive solo demos for health regen tests
 
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Hilary said:
@Pikmario kumite and a @Outlaw_Spike kumite

aggressive solo and defensive solo demos for health regen tests
Well it's meter right now...but who knows it could become health (with the same getting-hit restriction) at any moment, I guess. :^P

Beamsprouts said:
Again. There's almost no situation where someone would get hit by a raw j.HK and the techable bounce would become relevant EXCEPT as a reset.
But, you know, what you said makes sense because jumping and using unchained j.HK a lot in neutral is currently giving Filia players so many free converts and combos.
Firstly, what I meant was that the move has plenty of advantages as a poke or a neutral game tool. The fact that Filia's design allows her to land it vs standing characters after resets very often doesn't mean it is only used after resets, it means resets are often how she creates her next vs-ground neutral opportunity. That's the bit you entirely ignored.
I play Filia. I land plenty of instant j.HKs after say, blocked cr.LP or other blockstrings, if you mix with cr.MK. I hit it when someone goes for an aircombo->land->airthrow reset because it keeps Filia high up in the air so the throw is more likely to whiff, and because the startup is as fast as a lot of j.Ms. I occasionally see people miss an HK->airball in combos and only have it connect because of red bounce, or miss j.HK->airdash->j.L and still be able to tech chase because of red bounce. I use it as an easy answer to guess that they are going to reset me low or with a ground throw, because if I guess wrong I can still continue pressure. Each of those situations would change to me having to react with Gregor in order to follow up, or be more on-point with my execution, and none of those are resets.
Additionally, in order to tech the blue-bounce from an instant j.HK if you and Filia both started to jump on the same frame - putting you as high as is possible vs any kind of instant j.HK that's likely to hit as a reset - you need to hit a button on reaction within 23f of the frame she hits you (since hitting a button beforehand gets you hit). That's nigh-unreactable for most people. I see people miss techs on even Parasoul's j.HP a lot, and that's much longer than 23f before you land. However, that window is NOT un-hitconfirm-able for Filia, if she knows she has to Gregor on hit to continue. And since Gregor lets you continue even if they didn't jump, that's not a lot to ask.

Dreamepitaph said:
it wouldn't surprise me if he blatantly said "i don't want j hk to be a mixup tool anymore"
i'm waiting for it.
High low is not a mixup, to you? Only ambiguous crossups?
 
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Mike_Z said:
High low is not a mixup, to you? Only ambiguous crossups?
Would be if people would have fear to not jump right into j hk on purpose.

Look, i know what you want out of filia and filia players are forced to adapt like the fukua players.

out of pure curiosity can you make so that if filia air dashes then it will ALWAYS cross up?
having her stop at the apex height no matter what (it looks like 9. j hk from my eyes) looks and feels weird. If not, then i'll just wait till the nerfs hit retail or something.
 
So uh... while you're in an experimenting mood.

Is there a chance we can maybe test giving headless fortune her old fiber (if any part of fiber hits, you jump follow up but not on block) with current changes? I figure it'd be something neat to try since headless fiber is no longer hit invuln. Asking for this is probably a long shot but it doesn't hurt me to try. (or not too much I hope.)

I wish I had better reasoning other than curiosity
 
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Hey if Filia players don't appreciate having a ~19 frame instant overhead that's plus a million on block and easy to hit confirm just because they can't crossup with it anymore, you should just give it to Big Band instead. I'm sure he'll find a use for it.
 
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Not really anything to say other than being unable to crossup with j.HK is not fun at all, and is a bit extreme of a nerf. Now it looks EVEN WEIRDER when you airdash over them and j.HK flies past with its momentum, or stops dead in its tracks infront of them.

Giving j.HK blue bounce makes sense since it's a great (if amazingly underused (because everyone is bad)) neutral/anti-reset tool.

WHAT IF j.HK instead of being not a crossup anymore had less blockstun so that it was -8 on block from instant j.HK. This would retain Filia's extreme five-way mixup abilities, but also make blocking Filia actually potentially rewarding if she uses her avoid-heaps-of-shit j.HK and has already used her airdash. It would force Filia to airdash if she just does instant j.HK which would make super punishes possible, and would make IAD/sj.IAD j.HK straight up punishable unless the Filia wants to be a bastard and cancel into HK Airball to frametrap, but that's punishable too so w/e.
 
Dreamepitaph said:
Would be if people would have fear to not jump right into j hk on purpose.
If someone is jumping you can hit them out of their jump with a low. It's still a 50-50 ~_~
 
JHK isn't as safe as everyone thinks it is.
If you chicken block it and L-Cancel the the blockstun you can act very fast and punish it.

Same applies to JLP JHP on Parasoul but people are slowly starting to L-Cancel that one into 2LK.
 
Dreamepitaph said:
Would be if people would have fear to not jump right into j hk on purpose.

Look, i know what you want out of filia and filia players are forced to adapt like the fukua players.

out of pure curiosity can you make so that if filia air dashes then it will ALWAYS cross up?
having her stop at the apex height no matter what (it looks like 9. j hk from my eyes) looks and feels weird. If not, then i'll just wait till the nerfs hit retail or something.

If people are jumping into it, why not exploit pre-jump frames?
 
Dreamepitaph said:
Would be if people would have fear to not jump right into j hk on purpose.
I learned today that chicken blocking only puts you in stand preblock if you are in range of an attack.

...doesn't put you in LOW preblock, if you know what I mean...


...

...

...

...

...do lows, damn it. Beat their jump.
 
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Lem said:
JHK isn't as safe as everyone thinks it is.
If you chicken block it and L-Cancel the the blockstun you can act very fast and punish it.

Same applies to JLP JHP on Parasoul but people are slowly starting to L-Cancel that one into 2LK.

Dash up j.hk was safe because you could airdash afterwards. Iad J.hk + assist is also safe. It's safe enough dude lmao

edit: Also, while that parasoul thing is unsafe, it becomes safe(r) if she just does tear toss after j.hp or uses another buttons after j.lp. Something people should also know
 
Was the super jump iad experiment unfulfilled in someway? I felt that was reactable and alot less ambiguous. Also is there no way to keep both super jump iad crossup j.hk, and the blue bounce?
 
dekillsage said:
Dash up j.hk was safe because you could airdash afterwards. Iad J.hk + assist is also safe. It's safe enough dude lmao
Increasing block stun won't fix either of those things then.
Not that you recommended the change, mind you!

I just don't think the 'Make it less safe and more negative' thing is a good solution and fixes nothing.
 
Lem said:
L-Cancel the the blockstun

L-Cancel is a Melee thing, not quite applicable here, it would be like calling multiple throw resets in a row a Chain Grab. Nah man nah.

Also, chicken blocking the j.HK consistently requires either Filia doing it really slowly to let you get in the air before startup frames, or for you to do neutral jump then block it which is much riskier. Yes it's potent but it's not easy.

Lem said:
Increasing block stun won't fix either of those things then.
Not that you recommended the change, mind you!

I just don't think the 'Make it less safe and more negative' thing is a good solution and fixes nothing.

Uh, yeah, of course it won't fix "filia can airdash to make it safe" and "filia can call an assist to make it safe" because being able to airdash cancel ANYTHING can make it safe, and assists can make EVERYTHING safe.

You are missing what happens when an opponent successfully blocks a j.HK without airdash available OR an assist available. It's +1 directly in their face, letting Filia do c.LP to beat everything they do unless it's an invulnerable move. If the opponent pushblocks j.HK which they probably always do to GET HER AWAY FROM ME ARGH, this puts Filia into greater positives letting her run a mixup again or bait a pbgc.

However, if it was -8, you MUST airdash cancel, or MUST call an assist to keep it safe.
 
Lem said:
Increasing block stun won't fix either of those things then.
Not that you recommended the change, mind you!

I just don't think the 'Make it less safe and more negative' thing is a good solution and fixes nothing.

It kinda doesn't huh. I don't know I think I'd be fine with Filia having IAD J.hk cross up as long as dash up j.hk doesn't work to cross up anymore and j.hk on hit in the air causes a blue bounce. Because then its still a 50-50 on whether you get hit high or low right???

If this is possible to even do that is. lol
 
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If you fail to tech a blue bounce, you can still be otgd for a combo
 
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