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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

If only nerfs and buffs were based on tournament showings.

We'd have the most OP Fortune yet. and squigly. and big band.
 
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noaa said:
I'm surprised 80% of the talk in this thread is about Filia and Annie rather than the undizzy decay and ground tech changes.

Does anyone have a good guess what the idea with those changes is? People pretty much only do techable knock downs on kills and accidental drops aside from a handful of tech chase shenanigans. The only thing that made sense to me would be to leave a little undizzy after a tech so if someone does a wakeup super after teching it won't have the unblockable hitstop, but you could do that with a lot less than half undizzy (and it's half of your total undizzy, not just half of 240, so if you went way over the undizzy limit with the last chain or a max undizzy reset they could have most of a bar after teching).

Maybe just to make not-teching when you got knocked down with a ton of undizzy less attractive?
 
Broken Loose said:
That's literally a statement I could apply to Filia. She wasn't on every team during Evo top 4, nobody's every vocalized wanting her to get nerfed prior to this except bad players, and her neutral isn't good enough to hurt her linear pressure game even more.

(also lmfao at anybody actually recommending filia iad throw while in Getting Punched range anytime except when you have an assist actively covering you)
I think this whole thing is to try to get rid of really ambiguous cross ups to add a sort of "cross up protection", if thats the case Val's IAD J.HP might see the same treatment sometime in the beta
 
Arcana said:
I think this whole thing is to try to get rid of really ambiguous cross ups to add a sort of "cross up protection", if thats the case Val's IAD J.HP might see the same treatment sometime in the beta
and PW j.hk, and Bella j.lk, and Fukua j.hk, and
 
Painwheel is painwheel, Bella idk about, Fukua is hard to ambiguously cross up with now, thats what was nerfed in Eliza patch
 
Broken Loose said:
what the fuck? no seriously why filia and not parasoul, cerebella, valentine, peacock, or eliza?
Alright, let's bite.

I'm defending the thesis that Filia has the biggest amount of threats per second in the same timeframe than perhaps any other character.

Parasoul has half of her mixup game based on command normals that, because are inserted into a chain system, comes in a logic order. The real guess is which will come first. The lows are fast and the overheads are slow. Not a biggie. Her air-to-ground game is awesome for hitbox reasons, but nothing that will open someone up because it's fast. Also her cross up game is ridiculously easy to block/react with any button in almost any case.

I'll refrain from commenting about Cerebella and Valentine and Peacock 'cause I don't play them, even though I think Val's IAD j.hp is a really fair comparison to Filia's changes, yet it's much slower and actually reactable.

Eliza has similar stuff, but I don't feel like they're a problem for some reason. She's much slower overall or something. I haven't played with/against her enough to talk shit here.

Still, it's a topic I kinda wanna avoid. It's trivial to measure TOOLS in a game where assists work like Skullgirls does. Yes, there are strong individual stuff like Filia's j.hk and I'll get behind a specific change like this one for the sake of trying. In the end I feel like I overuse it indeed.

Now... changes like the undizzy ground tech are the ones I feel reluctant to accept. Safejumps on groundtechers, and any kind of okizeme are awesome stuff that I wish were more encouraged in this game. This change goes directly against those.

I'm about to get flamed so hard oh my god
 
i gotta try out bellas IAD j.LK! why did i never think of that?

makes sense that filia j.HK gives blue bounce now instead of red. brings it inline with para j.hp and fortune j.hk. that move is super frigging good.
 
noaa said:
Now... changes like the undizzy ground tech are the ones I feel reluctant to accept. Safejumps on groundtechers, and any kind of okizeme are awesome stuff that I wish were more encouraged in this game. This change goes directly against those.

How so? Everyone seems to never explain why "x change would make y happen or not happen and I don't like it" all it does is leave me curious.
 
Broken Loose said:
what
like Painwheel is supposed to signify Aerial Dominance, giving her an ambiguous cross up fits with her in a sense but honeslty lets get off of that topic
 
I think the reasoning behind these things is obvious... But i could be wrong or oversimplifying... As i tend to do... Anyways:

The tech dizzy nerf. When an opponent is cornered, it is possible to cover both tech directions, thusly it makes sense that teching not get as harshly punished as it currently does.

Filia j.hk:

I'm not one who doesnt compared what one character has to another. That makes no sense to me. The filia j.hk imho is getting nerf considerations because of how many mixups on top of mixups that filia gets. And just how good filia j.hk is as a combo starter.

Lets look at painwheel as an example. Fly has 15 frame startup when done from the ground. 10 frame startup when done from the air. As compared to filia iad stuff which has 5 frame startup from the ground (and like no startup from the air?)

Filia j.hk doesnt scale combos and actually gives +100 undizzy to work with on ch. Painwheel j.hk scales combos in the extreme. Some of my combos have a damage difference of around 2k when started with j.hk versus cr.lk
Now thats just the j.hk. But no character is any one tool alone. Pw doesnt really have much of an unreactable low threat as far as faking high goes. But filia does. Painwheel doesnt have an instant overhead but filia does. Painwheel doesnt come with an updo assist and a level one dhc that does damage before filia hits the opponent.. Etc etc etc

Going back to j.hk, its a very good tool that doesnt make sense on a character as fast and all around as filia. Shes a good team character, a good anti zoner, good reversals, the best resets in the game, and some really good dhcs. The only weakness that she has is neutral. And with her being an anti zoner, her only neutral weakness is against dp assists and character that wield them well.


This is why i think her j.hk is being looked at. To bring filia more in line with what other characters can do.

And she still has disgusting resets.
 
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Stuff said:
How so? Everyone seems to never explain why "x change would make y happen or not happen and I don't like it" all it does is leave me curious.

I stated it in a post earlier... without specific examples.
noaa said:
And also, I would sincerely like to hear the reasoning behind the ground tech undizzy thing specifically. I know pressure can be relentless in some cases, but the presence of okizeme in this game is near zero, and I feel like Mike wants us to do stuff with it, right? What about that old beta air Gregor change?

Safejumps and... things after a sweep are scarcely used. I understand the need to halt aggression, but this one change is affecting things it shouldn't, in my honest opinion.
 
@Dime_x

Not to mention that j.hk crosses up in the corner and is half immune to pushblock unlike say PW who if she gets pushblocked is often better off backing off not going back in.
 
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Arcana said:
I think this whole thing is to try to get rid of really ambiguous cross ups to add a sort of "cross up protection", if thats the case Val's IAD J.HP might see the same treatment sometime in the beta
At the risk of being narrow sighted on how other people play Valentine, I don't think j.HP is that ambiguous. Especially in resets.

The entire point isn't to remove cross ups completely, it's to tone down Filia's one because she has it on top of everything else
 
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Also I know I'm just repeating myself but I honestly don't think Filia's resets should be nerfed much, just reward people for blocking. Making it more rewarding for a successful block means that people who can't block and people who are good at abusing the resets are unaffected.

BUT it rewards players who are bad at abusing her mix ups and players who are good at blocking.


Although a counter point I suppose is that Mike just wanted to slightly tap Filia for nerfs rather than bring out the nerf bat.
 
Broken Loose said:
(also lmfao at anybody actually recommending filia iad throw while in Getting Punched range anytime except when you have an assist actively covering you)

which is always dude come on lmao
 
Broken Loose said:
what the fuck? no seriously why filia and not parasoul, cerebella, valentine, peacock, or eliza?
Val and Eliza really?


That said I really have mixed feelings on the half Undizzy reduction from ground teching. Is it there to interact with the other experiment which makes supers blockable post flash so that wakeup supers don't wreck okis?

I didn't notice any difference in the undizzy drain, but the idea seems... odd. Wouldn't it make more sense to have it drain a bit slower when it's fully filled to reward early resets? Dunno how big of a fan I would be of the latter change.

Solos having regen is a neat idea, but if we're going to keep this then it should get toned down a bit. I'm not sure about 60f startup because I want it to take a moment before the regen kicks in, but I also don't want it to take so long that it goes fairly unnoticed with all the assist blocking shenanigans and whatnot.

On the subject of solos, I am also for the idea of giving them bonus meter gain in some way. Solos aren't meant (from my point of view) to have any extra utility compared to having a team. Some sort of meter gain increase would allow them to use their supers/tools more often. This would also fit with an idea I remember you bringing up a few months back of solo characters stealing red health from a snapped character, though I'm not sure how good that idea sounds in practice.

For real though, these are the most thoughtful beta experiments I've ever been able to try. I hope they don't dissapear tomorrow and instead get messed around with some more over the next few days (which I'm excited for, since messing around with experiments is fun)
 
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- Filia j.HK / dashjump j.HK is 18f from the time you press UF. Painwheel dashjump j.HK doesn't hit crouching characters until like 50f or after, and her fastest ground fly j.HK that'll crossup is 35f. Val fastest j.HP that'll crossup is about 35f also, even from backdash->airdash. Given the speed difference and the ease-of-execution difference, I don't think Filia should get a completely ambiguous crossup in j.HK.
- You're also overlooking the positive aspect of it, which is that you can't miss with j.HK or IAD HK this way. :^P
- I'd rather solos get meter then life, which I'll try, but if they stick with some sort of red-health-based thing then getting hit/thrown after your red health use has already started would bring your red life down to zero, so you wouldn't just get X bonus health for an entire lifebar regardless of gameplay.
- Slower undizzy drain I think I got backward, but the idea is to punish optimizers by making you have to wait longer to do another fully optimized long combo after doing a previous long combo, while trying not to affect short ones much.
- Leaving undizzy around after ground techs is more to protect the person on the ground than anything else, and also to do the previous thing a bit. It might make more sense to bring it down to a max of half, though, even if you're above half.
 
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So I guess SJ IAD j.HK was left in because its slower and that being Filia's cross up tool puts her more in line with others?

I guess that makes sense.
 
My stance on everything because I'm opinionated and silly:

Undizzy and hitstop things:
It's interesting and I actually think it's really cool in mash happy matchups, the wake-up and mid-combo blockability behind the idea is nice. What I'm not thrilled about is how a successful tech chases force me to reset more. Actually getting a hit after a tech forces me to reset more frequently even after I risked the initial mash this is supposed to be preventing. As such, my opponent knows I will have to reset and it forces me to risk their mash even more than before.

I think it would be good to experiment to:
  • Revert Undizzy decay and the current Ground tech undizzy model to retail versions
  • Have undizzy still make supers blockable from neutral state post-flash
  • For the first 30 frames of an opponent-induced ground tech, supers are blockable post flash
This would hopefully still leave plenty incentive to tech chase while accomplishing the same mission the current system is aiming for: reducing the strength of supers while under vortex and wakeup pressure.
(I also don't think it actually adresses the problem most players had with supers, but you say you don't want to make supers in neutral weaker, Mike, and I agree that what you think is important since you're the designer and all and I respect that and thanks for your constant hard work, but really SSJ and Scalpels and Twice Shy range makes no sense to me MKAY THANK YOU)

Of course I type this as you make your latest post and say things in the context of vortex and combo length and not super mash, but this is already typed up so I'll just leave it here.


Solo stuff:
Traditionally, solos lack the red health regen and utility teams get from having characters off screen. This health regen is cool because it actually addresses one of the inherent imbalances solos have to deal with.
The second thing is this utility, and like Dolfinh said, as far as I can see it can only really be addressed by giving solos some more meter, which yay you're interested in, too!!!!

When an attack is blocked the attacker gains waaaaaaaayyyy more meter than the defender, and as far as I can tell chip damage doesn't even factor into the meter the defender gains, yet the attacker gets a sizable chunk. Solos under pressure from assist blockstrings and all that need to be feeling like their blocking is rewarding. Just like. Please. That. Up solo meter gain for blocking, and if you want to be generous think about upping the meter they gain from special moves and the meter gain whiffed normals provide when you don't have any bars. Maybe make solos an exception where they always gain meter from whiffed normals hmmmmmm???? Some combination of these or only one or something. Those are my thoughts.


j.HK Shenanigans:

I'm fine with the same-side instant j.HK change. I'm fine with having to super jump IAD to crossup. I agree ambiguous resets are silly. It's definitely now really clear that either, "Oh, all of her momentum stopped, this is same side" and "Oh, she went pretty high and is going for a crossup." Still hard to react to, but the clarity is very welcome.

The techable knockdown is cringe-worthy, though. The fact that upback beats an IAD j.HK reset is illogical in and of itself. Are we going to make this standard for every crossup? Wait, we can't, every other crossup will work the same. So this is a Filia specific nerf... on the character who's foundation is literally just to get in on you and look for a crossup.
At the end of the day, if someone up backs and gets hit by crossup j.HK, they were blocking the wrong way. It doesn't make sense to give you a free out because you made a mistake guessing a reset. When you guess a reset wrong, you should get hit by it, not gimmick your way out of it because of a character specific mechanic you know you can exploit.
Someone I talked to compared it to the exact same mechanic on Parasoul's j.HP, but frankly the comparison doesn't hold up. There is a huge difference between not being able to convert off an extremely powerful neutral game tool and not being able to convert off of a move that is almost exclusively used as a mixup. If you can't convert off of it consistently, why would you use it as a mixup?

Sitting on top of you and mixing you up is the only area that Filia thrives in as a point character. I don't think we should take out any of her options.

Inb4 people say go low as if that's something revolutionary and as if using mixups other than the one we're discussing at hand doesn't apply to literally any reset situation.

sorry that I'm awful and have awful opinions, thanks if you bother reading my walls of text
 
Mike_Z said:
- Slower undizzy drain I think I got backward, but the idea is to punish optimizers by making you have to wait longer to do another fully optimized long combo after doing a previous long combo, while trying not to affect short ones much.
I figured as much, and yeah you got that backwards then :P
Your current version punishes really short strings while not affecting Long Combo > Reset.

It might make more sense to bring it down to a max of half, though, even if you're above half.
Why?
I mean, I don't think it would matter "at all", since nobody ends their combos prematurely in techable stuff, so I doubt this would apply too often -
but I don't really see what's better about "If you end your combo in sweep @150 Ud, the opponent is at 115 now; if you do it @260 Ud, the opponent is also at 115 now" than ""If you end your combo in sweep @150 Ud, the opponent is at 75 now; if you do it @260 Ud, the opponent is at 130 now"?
Again, this doesn't seem to matter in 99% of cases (who ends their combo in sweep before being at full Ud? Either you reset somewhere, or you go through the full thing), and in the 1% of leftover cases, it punishes people heavily for doing a shorter combo?
 
Oh good I came back to Skullheart.

Beamsprouts said:
What I'm not thrilled about is how a successful tech chases force me to reset more.
You having to reset more after successfully tech chasing offsets the fact that they can no longer do a guaranteed reversal super (that people seem to think is complain-worthy) and instead have to go with potentially riskier options. Remember to look at it from both sides.

Which is exactly why
Beamsprouts said:
For the first 30 frames of an opponent-induced ground tech, supers are blockable post flash
that is never happening by itself.

Beamsprouts said:
The techable knockdown is cringe-worthy, though. The fact that upback beats an IAD j.HK reset is illogical in and of itself. Are we going to make this standard for every crossup?
It's not a crossup now, though, and that's not the comparison used. It's a 17f safe-on-block overhead, and that's counting the jump startup frames.

Beamsprouts said:
When you guess a reset wrong, you should get hit by it, not gimmick your way out of it because of a character specific mechanic you know you can exploit.
I am confused how "guessing wrong, taking the hit, and being able to ground tech if Filia did not airdash cancel or Gregor to combo" is not "getting hit by it".
Have we somehow decided that single-hit damage is irrelevant, or that non-autopilot confirms are impossible?

Beamsprouts said:
Someone I talked to compared it to the exact same mechanic on Parasoul's j.HP, but frankly the comparison doesn't hold up.
Let's take a look at the air normals that knock down vs air, knockdown being a good thing since it lets you tech chase etc at the VERY least just for getting the hit:
Squigly, Peacock, Painwheel, Valentine, Double, Fukua - none. Fukua's j.HK is not an overhead, either.
Eliza - j.HK, 18f: knocks the opponent a full screen away, as air-to-air conversions are difficult at best and impossible at worst, cannot be used as an overhead unless IAD'd in which case you can't followup midstage, punishable if blocked. Causes red bounce.
Big Band - j.HK, 15f: very unsafe on block, cannot cancel at all after first 2 active frames and must use a super to do so during those frames, vulnerable until landing (and after), only positional combos possible. Causes red bounce.
Fortune - j.HK, 15f: can be airdash-cancelled to combo off it without OTG, can be IAD'd to be overhead, poor reach. Causes blue bounce when used by itself.
Parasoul - j.HP, 14f: large disjoint hitbox, cannot be used as an overhead while rising, cannot be airdash cancelled, impossible to combo from vs air. Causes blue bounce when used by itself.
Cerebella - j.MP, 14f: only knocks down if chained into, cannot be used as overhead while rising.
j.HP, 15f: stops all her momentum and impossible to combo off vs air unless in corner, can be used as an overhead, cannot be airdash cancelled.
j.HK, 13f: cannot be used as an overhead while rising, only comboable afterward vs air if falling, no airdash cancel possible (only cancel is Grab Bag), does not alter trajectory in any way. Causes red bounce.
and then you have
Filia - j.HK, 13f: large disjoint hitbox, safe on block, can be used as an instant overhead while rising, airdash cancellable to combo vs air without OTGing anywhere, can also Gregor or Hairball to combo after midstage, stops her momentum making it useful for movement. Not even gonna count the "could randomly crossup". Causes...red bounce, allowing free combos even if you are not fast enough to confirm the hit and combo without OTGing?
 
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Now that I'm thinking more about it, I'm starting to like the idea of getting meter regain instead of health for solos.
Well, giving more meter to solos who have 3 times less reasons to use meter than teams sounds...off, but it could really help some chars who struggle on solo, which seems to be the most meter-craved chars.
Bella would absolutely not care at all (I never felt meter craved, really), but squigly and filia may find it nice.
So yeah, let's try that too. Will make solos have to think a bit more than with current change, at least. Current change that, imo, really just feels like higher health pool. Just gimme 5000 more health, wouldn't see the difference.
 
The filia changes are interesting. I did not agree with them at first, but they seem mostly a fix for the "iad j.hk and filia doesn't even know it's going to crossup" crossup. The one thing that feels wierd is the techable bounce, but if that change is needed for that reset to not exist I'd deal with it
 
cloudKing211 said:
The filia changes are interesting. I did not agree with them at first, but they seem mostly a fix for the "iad j.hk and filia doesn't even know it's going to crossup" crossup. The one thing that feels wierd is the techable bounce, but if that change is needed for that reset to not exist I'd deal with it
Edit: second "fix" seems really drastic and if crossup j.hk Is not allowed, maybe no techable knockdown? Or vice versa?
 
dragonos451 said:
Now that I'm thinking more about it, I'm starting to like the idea of getting meter regain instead of health for solos.
Well, giving more meter to solos who have 3 times less reasons to use meter than teams sounds...off, but it could really help some chars who struggle on solo, which seems to be the most meter-craved chars.
Bella would absolutely not care at all (I never felt meter craved, really), but squigly and filia may find it nice.
So yeah, let's try that too. Will make solos have to think a bit more than with current change, at least. Current change that, imo, really just feels like higher health pool. Just gimme 5000 more health, wouldn't see the difference.

Yeah I'd be interested in trying it. Meter can be hard to come by for a lot of solos. Add to that, for a handful of solos their only reversal is metered meaning some solos end up quite starved at the end of a match.

My only concern is that while health is a mostly equal gain for all solos (getting health back is always nice), meter will benefit a few more than others. Squigly who can put meter to excellent use but can't gain it as well as some others would likely see a lot more benefit from meter than would Peacock who already gains meter fairly well but doesn't have amazing supers for solo.
 
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But she's a different character. :^)

Re: Filia j.HK
 
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I think I hate this change more for the fact that it fucks with her mobility than it actually being a crossup.
The j.HK stop works regardless of height, so it messes up her mobility high in the air.

What if j.HK was just flagged to be blockable both left/right if it crosses up?
 
can't you just start doing airdash j.lk -> hk instead?
 
dekillsage said:
can't you just start doing airdash j.lk -> hk instead?
well for one because it looks and feels rediculous that everyone keeps their momentum when they use their heavies? he's not proposing for an overhead(which i'm forced to assume that you read that correctly). he's simply proposing that J hk gets it carry motion like before. no cross ups just momentum.
 
so does j.lk not carry momentum or what cuz that's what I was talking about
 
Any and all forms of being able to do crossup j.HK have been completely removed.

no IAD j.L~HK
no sj.IAD j.HK

Nothing. You just stop. Regardless of height, too.
 
well for one because it looks and feels ridiculous that everyone keeps their momentum when they use their heavies?

Now normally someone would go the route of *why don't your character get the same treatment" but we're not here for that.

Now what is it that you got against J hk carrying momentum BUT you can still just block any which way?
it'd be like this patch in its own right (i could be clearly mistaken but please educate me on the matter).
 
Mike_Z said:
- I'd rather solos get meter then life, which I'll try, but if they stick with some sort of red-health-based thing then getting hit/thrown after your red health use has already started would bring your red life down to zero, so you wouldn't just get X bonus health for an entire lifebar regardless of gameplay.
Can't really talk about the red life changes too hard since I haven't played it, but I feel like losing all the red life off of stray hits or projectiles would suck. What if it was just grabs and supers that killed all the red health?

On meter gain, I don't know about other people, but I never really feel like meter is something I'm in need of as a solo. Don't need meter for DHC's or Alpha Counters like teams, so other than using supers in a combo there's rare use for meter. And not many characters have supers they can just use solo (unless they make a read with a reversal super and in fact have a reversal super), and between landing hits and getting hit you kinda have all the meter you need most of the time.
 
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Dreamepitaph said:
well for one because it looks and feels ridiculous that everyone keeps their momentum when they use their heavies?

Now normally someone would go the route of *why don't your character get the same treatment" but we're not here for that.

Now what is it that you got against J hk carrying momentum BUT you can still just block any which way?
it'd be like this patch in its own right (i could be clearly mistaken but please educate me on the matter).

because this means that if you iad j.hk in the air I can block it by holding forward???

Also I'm pretty sure valentines j.hk doesn't carry momentum either but I'd have to check and I'm not going too right now
 
dekillsage said:
because this means that if you iad j.hk in the air I can block it by holding forward???

Also I'm pretty sure valentines j.hk doesn't carry momentum either but I'd have to check and I'm not going too right now
standing block not crouch block. the problem is its abrupt stop. tell me any character that has that Sudden stop like they hit a wall.
 
Having the momentum stop happen globally in the SJ state is weird as hell because now it happens on incoming and in air recovery. I guess you'd get used to it eventually
 
Loss of hitstop with undizzy for tweaked undizzy behavior sounds alright but hoping the loss of hitstop doesn't stay but the undizzy tweaks stay. These Beta changes should stick around to be played.
 
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