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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

What exactly changed Fortune gameplay-wise?

or maybe I should learn to read someday because I don't understand the joke.
 
@Stuff he's referring to the headless change and what not.

and to all fukua players.

so despite the damage and chip buff. you guys still don't like this change?
 
Getting a new s.HK back in MDE, being able to juggle the head, better sneeze, changes to her air throw I asked for long ago, etc. etc. etc.

I'm basically saying, "stop asking for so much even though I myself have already asked for a lot for my character. Or at least put more thought into your suggestions instead of 'Hey this would be cool but I haven't thought why this might be too good or why it should be experimented with.' We're all spoiled."

But I don't even play this game that often anymore and I'm not Mike, so take what I say however you will. Add on to the fact that I have a fake petition in my signature, hehe.
 
While it's still in beta and not retail, anyone have anything to say about Val's Dead Cross or Bypass experiments? They're both really really good imo, especially when combined with the recent cross/vial changes that allows for more crosses in neutral.

The dead cross change drastically helped me in Val vs. Fukua. As much as it annoys Domo, we both thought it was pretty good/fair in that matchup, but now that Fukua's ranged tools are getting tweaked even more, it may be more obnoxious for her. I don't think it's overpowered in Val's closer matchups like Pea or Para, but I'm ready to believe I'm biased in that since the Paras I play regularly are ridiculously good.

I haven't changed my routes much to utilize beta Bypass, but it does look super strong even after the scaling change. I think my number one concern about bypass mini launch is that it's a relatively cheap conversion from yolo bypasses that required meter/assist to convert before; if it hits you really only use your OTG to convert, if that at certain heights. If it doesn't, you spend the meter you would've spent on scalpel conversion to safety off with scalpels instead.

The sideswap utility is also extremely good, especially when considering how good Val's carry for happy birthdays already was pre-buff and that she's always been one of the best at avoiding someone's assists in neutral.

The fact that it's also an aerial knockdown that sends them upwards (and can be double-jumped out of) is also really strong; I think people are working just to get the raw damage out of it right now, but air resets using it in the future will be great. Retail combos have series of air buttons that are all restands, so you really only have as much setup time as the hitstun of your last move before a reset. Val can kinda position in a lot of new ways with no real concern for air jab/super mashing until a reset/restand.


tl;dr: Dead Cross is really fun/good and I'm happy with it, I hope it stays. Bypass is really good for a lot of reasons, and I'm a little worried it may be too good in the long run. I'm not sure where the line between QoL and stronger-than-intended is.
 
I really like the Val changes. Her combos are more damaging and you can still go for regular reset routes. You can still use the same old combos for corner carry and happy birthday.
I like the cross changes, too. The buff on lvl 2 is also good, even tho it's still a very specific tool.

The only other thing I would like to have is choosing the side you're going to fall when doing mortuary drop.
 
Jason said:
Meaty throw is not really what I'd call a hard read. I do it all the damn time. The only time Fukua is going to punish you for it is if she does wakeup j.HK <- THAT is a hard read since it loses to just about everything that's not a meaty throw. If you meaty throw against somebody doing up+back the situation basically goes back to neutral most of the time, not really all that risky.

It depends. Giving a character that has a strong neutral back her neutral is usually a small advantage for them, no? For example, if Peacock escapes your pressure, momentum has a habit of swinging her way vs a lot of the cast.

So if Fukua's neutral is solid, returning to neutral is a clear win for her.

Even in cases of a character without a good neutral, being back at neutral is far preferable to being in blockstun/hitstun. So at best, the return to "even" advantage is a loss for one character and a gain for the other.

In any case, I'm not actually arguing against anything you've said as I largely agree, just pointing out that a return to neutral isn't an even thing as one players wants to get back there and the other doesn't. In many cases, I'd rather put them into guaranteed blockstun with a lockdown or something and try to force something to happen instead of risking them slipping out. Of course... they aren't mutually exclusive I guess. Call the assist and go for a meaty throw.

I'm rambling now so I'll end here.

... who in the fuck makes someone work at a university library when no one is here...
 
Now that the fireballs have a recovery time (a little ball floating back to her), is each recovery time consistent with which fireball is used (light, medium, hard) or is it the same recovery time overall or does it just depend on placement and where the little ball is? (If I measured the frames I probably would have answered this question myself but I have a large margin of error to these things so I can't figure these things out on my own)

Edit: Never mind, I looked earlier in the thread. It depends on placement.
 
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You can even run away from the ball. There is no determined recovery time. If you dash torwards the ball you recover faster. If you dodge it, you recover slower. All the balls have the same speed, iirc.
 
Can we please skip suggesting ideas like giving Fukua a teleport? At least in threads I read? Thank you.

The tracking has been/will be improved, so the average recovery time at fullscreen is like 50f now and you can't really dodge it for very long even when trying.
 
I like the idea but not the current implementation where it is just a nerf. I know there isn't really much chance of it, but I'd either like the firefly to do something or the fireball to do something more (that isn't just damage) to justify it.
 
Negus Eyoel said:
can we just not do tracking shenanigans? i don't really see why she needs to have her fireballs nerfed at all.
Ex-per-i-ments, to see if there is something alleviate the bitching while maintaining (most of) the use. Not gonna say it again.
 
IsaVulpes said:
.. Ding Ding my "Weakness against Throws" now turns into a "Weakness against Lows", cus I have to upback more than other characters, which makes me kinda free to those, and hey Lows aren't scaled! What terror.


I see this as changing the goalposts. Anyone can see that a weakness to ground throws will also expose fukua to having to either throw tech or upback, both beaten by lows and lows being non scaled damage, the lows also beaten by invincible moves, of which fukua has only one fully invincible move, and it is so slow that a MEATY throw attempt will recover before the reversal hits.

Which is all well and good.

However, your supposition that her weakness to throws also makes her weak to lows, is false. Fukua is no more weak to lows than any other character. She has the same ability deal with lows as anyone else.

The problem here is the "this weakness turns this other thing into a weakness" thing as well. Because we could continue down this path and now say that since fukua is "weak" to lows and therfor needs to over defend against said lows, that shes also now weak to highs, and then that becomes that shes weak to pressure in general since shes all of a suddenly "weak" to throws and lows and highs... Shes weak to everything because of her 1 actual weakness having a butterfly effect on all of her other attributes...


This is circular logic. And while you are not incorrect that fukua will be hit by more lows cause of her weakness to throws, that doesnt mean that shes now ALSO weak to lows... This is easy to see because she has every ability to beat lows as any other non airdash character in the game.

Going on, this exact same thing could be said of painwheel. Painwheel doesnt have a completely invincible to throws attack reversal (she does have flight reversal though... Yeah, good luck with that) but ive never thought of pw to be particularly weak to throws since i have the ability to not be in throw range in the first place, and also have the ability to tech throws and also have the ability to upback throws... To me thats a lot of defenses to throws... Then there's the fukua case where her "weakness" to throws is a weakness that you have to get close to her to make any kind of substantial. This weakness on a character designed to keep people away and people will have to use moves to get close, moves that fukua is not weak against. She has fireball, her movement, her universal ability to pushblock and pbgc into her drill for dealing with people that try to get close to her and take advantage of her "weakness"

But these things arent the reason why i decided to post. This last point is THE reason why i decided to post... The rest of the stuff is just additional evidence so to speak:


The reason why i disagree (in spirit) with your argument as to "fukua has to open herself up to lows to avoid the throws"

Is that in your argument you act like the catalyst action that everything else resides on... Is doing full damage.

But NO, the catalyst action (throws) ARE NOT doing doing full damage. They are doing 50% scaled damage while also building fukua or her team should fukua die, fuckloads of meter. And this is the only point that NEEDS to be made.

Yes fukua is "weak" to throws, no in this game that isnt much of a weakness at all when the character with that weakness keeps you from the space where she can be hit by said weakness and when your reward for hitting with said weakness is scaled damage and a try at better damage.


And last but not least:

Even if you die to like 3-5 throw resets, you basically get sf4 ultra meter in the form of mucho super meter for having had your character die.

This "weakness" looks less and less like a MEANINGFUL weakness. As i said before i will sometimes elect to just let my character eat throw after throw and take the meter and my full undizzy incoming mixup.

This is of course only when i dont think i have a pattern read, i wont just let my character die for no reason... But if I'm slightly confused as to how to defend... Just sitting there and looking to react high/crossup while allowing the throw, is a disgustingly good defense. One that ive used with a decent amount of success.
 
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Dime_x said:
Even if you die to like 3-5 throw resets, you basically get sf4 ultra meter in the form of mucho super meter for having had your character die.

This "weakness" looks less and less like a MEANINGFUL weakness. As i said before i will sometimes elect to just let my character eat throw after throw and take the meter and my full undizzy incoming mixup.
They still died, duder. That is all. It can be a better choice than dying differently, but you took damage.
 
Mike_Z said:
Why? You don't like trying things to see if there's any improvements that can be made?
not when i feel something is fine as it is. and for the most part i feel like this game is fine where it is and doesn't really need to be changed at all. like fukua clone and damage nerfs i agree with but everything else i've found myself thinking why is this a thing
 
Mike_Z said:
They still died, duder. That is all. It can be a better choice than dying differently, but you took damage.

"Like" for Orgasmo reference.

For what its worth, I think Fukua's fine where she is before this last round of changes.

Though admittedly, I do like the new fireball mechanic if for no other reason than it is pretty damn unique.
 
With the exception to all the damage (and maybe ever so slightly the range on m clone) i think fukua is fine in retail. Even with the damage and m clone staying where it is and all the nerfs reverted back i think fukua is fine.

My argument about fukua was/is one of topical nature. She seems fine to me. A hell of a lot less annoying than peacock at the very least who has to be my least favorite character to play against in the cast, followed by filia.
 
Just wanted to say that I like Fukua's new fireball solely because I think the effect is pretty cool.

I don't play Fukua much, thus I don't have a good sense for how it effects her general gameplay. All I know is that it adds a bit of visual flair to her character and I like watching the little ball fly around the screen :D

I just spent the last 5 minutes seeing how long I could keep the little bugger away from me...
 
Negus Eyoel said:
not when i feel something is fine as it is. and for the most part i feel like this game is fine where it is and doesn't really need to be changed at all. like fukua clone and damage nerfs i agree with but everything else i've found myself thinking why is this a thing
I think you have to have faith that if the experiment is a failure and it doesn't make the game better, it won't make the jump from the beta to the main game.
 
Mike_Z said:
Ex-per-i-ments, to see if there is something alleviate the bitching while maintaining (most of) the use. Not gonna say it again.
Not sure if possible but since you're in an experimenting mood, is it possible for EX shadows that use meter but go full screen? Have stuff in my head percolating.
 
MegamanDS said:
Not sure if possible but since you're in an experimenting mood, is it possible for EX shadows that use meter but go full screen? Have stuff in my head percolating.
Does anyone else in SG have EX moves? Are there markers on the bar for how much an EX would cost? Nope. I mean you could do ones that cost a whole bar but why...

Negus Eyoel said:
not when i feel something is fine as it is. and for the most part i feel like this game is fine where it is and doesn't really need to be changed at all. like fukua clone and damage nerfs i agree with but everything else i've found myself thinking why is this a thing
Are you on the dishing-out end or the receiving end? Cuz y'know, character users generally have problems with nerfs.

You really don't have ANY faith that I have some idea what I'm doing, do you? Despite a year of this.
Oh wait, but you quit for part of that...
 
Mike_Z said:
Does anyone else in SG have EX moves? Are there markers on the bar for how much an EX would cost? Nope. I mean you could do ones that cost a whole bar but why...

i was thinking the way eliza's mini guy loses bar for moves, fukua would lose bar. and it doesn't have to flash or anything, just goes further
 
Dokurider said:
Imma just throw this out there.

When fighting Marie, any of Big Band's moves that Sound Stun should add extra stun to compensate for the fact he has no ground multi hit attacks. The only way to stun Marie with Big Band is with SSJ. Every other character can nail stun on Marie, some character can do so with such insulting ease.
Thank you for your input on the current new Endless Beta changes regarding player vs player competitive balance.
 
My 2 cents

I'm ok with current beta clones and pre-returning fireballs. I think my biggest issue with her is how little she commits with using j.HK in conjuncture with her fireballs. j.HK is REALLY GOOD in terms of hitbox and as a starter, which I'm ok with, but I feel like there should be a little more risk in tossing around an attack like that.

Mentioned it before, but I'd like to try her so she can only cancel j.HK into fireball on hit or block. Heck, even removing it on block wouldn't be the end of the world since she can still chain into j.HP and would be a harder conversion if the j.HP hits compared to using a fireball.
 
Dokurider said:
Imma just throw this out there.

When fighting Marie, any of Big Band's moves that Sound Stun should add extra stun to compensate for the fact he has no ground multi hit attacks. The only way to stun Marie with Big Band is with SSJ. Every other character can nail stun on Marie, some character can do so with such insulting ease.
I appreciate this. Wrong thread, but thanks!

@RemiKz
Ideally I'd like to not make an exception where nothing else in the game works like that just for j.HK.
 
That was initially my concern with it as well, but then again you have characters like Big Band who can't cancel j.HK outside of super either, although the functions of the attacks are pretty different.
 
RemiKz said:
That was initially my concern with it as well, but then again you have characters like Big Band who can't cancel j.HK outside of super either, although the functions of the attacks are pretty different.
His makes visual sense because he's entirely committed to the move and is active the entire way down, yeah. And he can't cancel it into ANYTHING after the first 2 active frames. Hers is neither of those, and the exception is less clear.
 
there's a visual bug in the new empty NMO arena:

the shooting stars that are supposed to be in the sky are being displayed in front of the arena's scaffolding.

maybe its just a because its a totally new stage still being worked on, but I figure I should mention it anyway.
 
so something I've been cur ious about is that certain characters have taunts that add positive things, but a bunch of the cast does not. I know mike is all about making things without exceptions, but is this a case you consider not an exception and just a character specific thing? Like, last night I was initially joking about how double should get taunt if she whiffs fridge and gets the growl off. Now I have no idea of what she would get from this, but I feel like little things like this could be added to characters from in game resources already made. Like a pw taunt could be her winpose, but sped up or something, filia's smug winpose next to Samson, brain drain sprite visiting fukua from pw intro, idk for fortunes, val, or psoul's. Squigs could be her winpose petting Lev or whatever. Bella idk as well. Just a thought. Idk if this should go into feature request or not, so mods can move this post there if necessary
edit:I'm making this post from my phone, sorry for bad grammar structure
 
I think every character will eventually get a taunt, they just currently have other priorities.

This got animated a while back (when Squigly was done but they couldn't yet continue with BB due to Konami things/similar, iirc)
hxKGWDY.gif
 
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