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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

well the thing is. to really kill you would need an assist to do 1 reset into death. cause the dizzy system dictates that.

The reason why fukua kills like that is because she will most times have the ability to DHC and kill ANY character
 
agent13 said:
fireball damage nerfs for fukua?
No. that wouldn't even do much. she'd still be stupid.
i can only speculate that scaling on shadows might do something? i honestly don't know at this point as to what can make fukua more fair?!
 
I'm pretty sure I can kill people for two bars with one reset with Eliza c.lk starter. And Cerebella, too, probably.
 
I'm pretty sure the characters that can are 50/50 or more.

If it was cheap and easy, wouldn't more people be abusing it? See abuse of Double, Fortune, Filia, Peacock at some point in this game's life.
 
I am confused at what you mean. Are you saying you don't think characters can do it, or are you saying more people should do it?
 
Dreamepitaph said:
No. that wouldn't even do much. she'd still be stupid.
i can only speculate that scaling on shadows might do something? i honestly don't know at this point as to what can make fukua more fair?!

Eh, i still think that needs a nerf anyways

Maybe further knockback on l. shadow so you can only continue the combo with a drill? I don't think that would kill her but limiting her options for massive damage won't hurt either and besides drill is positive you still have a set up situation
 
Mike_Z said:
Okay, let's see about these...

- I don't actually mind Cere j.HP not being an overhead. Mostly you get it as a reset accidentally when you screw up j.LP mash anyway, she pretty much doesn't use it as an instant overhead so I am not sure anyone would even notice if I did it and didn't say anything. :^P

I'm behind when it comes to reading this thread but pls no.

I run stop j.hp all the time, I also j.lp hold hp to glide then do it or j.lp into low.
 
dekillsage said:
mmm his corner damage is good, but his midscreen damage seems average to me. 2 stuns after parry shouldn't boost his damage by so much that its like wow this is dumb pls nerf, and atm fully scaled ssj does a little over 900 damage ( I believe 940?) without taunt.

I would like to see this tried out, because I feel it'll give more big band players the reward they should get for making a good read.

On another note, it would be nice if anyone could tell me how to use big bands j.punches. Other than, you can air to air with them sometimes and get a mix up that is. Because atm... they feel rather worthless, and are part of the reason I don't play big band even casually.


The thing that is problematic about this solution is it doesnt accomplish anything unless i parry. And since parries can be hard to come by the net result is kinda still the same. Though, yes id take it if that is all i could get.

@Spencer may well be right that it would increase BB damage a bit much. So maybe some scaling on the first or second soundstun.. Or something like a 10% nerf to his damage is something? Idk he just feels hard to combo with right now unless one takes into consideration: stage placement, soundstun starter or not, otg used or not and then throw in dizzy considerations as well.

It isnt that much more than what other characters have to learn, but the fact that so many of his moves have soundstun on them and that so many of them are also linkers makes it a real chore to keep track of along with everything else. Its like i have to have a different bnb for every sound stun starter that i use...
 
Same with me, @iLoli. But after the all of the tweaks made to it, I decided not to push the issue since it felt like a reasonable compromise. I don't know what my bottom line for damage would be. My favorite parts of the game are all of the fishing around for hits, confirming off the impossible, and finding your way in. Feels like a chess match at times. But like I said, I'm happy with it as a compromise.

Though it does seem like damage is trending higher again. Val might have got near 8k damage with beta. Eliza is near 8k. BB is over 8k. Fukua is near 8k.

@Dime_x I'm not saying not to try it for sure. I know not everyone agrees, but I think BB could use a buff. My only consideration with him is that once people get better with parry, he might get a lot better than we think at present. BBs from two months ago were free compared to the people still working on tech with him now.
 
dekillsage said:
How about big band gets 2 soundstuns in a combo if he lands a hit immediately after a parry? People parry -> beat extend anyways removing one soundstun in their combo right away.
This would be really neato IMO because I've found trying to mash a 5lp out after a parry ends up getting you counterhit, so the safe option is to start with Beat Extend, which cripples the rest of your combo capability.
 
Mike_Z said:
Argus by itself does basically the same damage now. So you lost airthrow full combo (but you can still put them a full screen away with j.MK Argus) / teleport+assist / triple Argus / plus on block George, you keep fullscreen confirms for on average MORE damage at 1 bar since the Argus damage is from the big laser now, and you gain confirms with more damage from 2 bars at any distance or off a throw plus the chance to build meter with your combo rather than spend it.
I guess I don't see what you don't like, unless you disagree with the nerfs specifically. ?

I tested full screen triple bang into argus against Filia and compared the two versions, the beta on average did about 200-300 more, it's nice I suppose.
I understand making Lenny into Argus more consistent is a useful buff in retrospect but having to use 2 bars for a 7 K combo is not worth it in my eyes unless it would get the kill. A soid confirm into a single argus combo would do more damage and be more meter efficient. Sure she can also do it off a throw now, but in most scenarios I'd rather go for a mixup. Especially as her mixup potential got hindered quite a bit.

So what I don't like is that she is losing:
Airthrow full combo (less ways to start mixups, mixups get less threatening with a weak airthrow, and lowers the overall combos she gets to do)
Assist+Teleport (Less mixups, less confirms for combos, loss of movement, one less defensive option)
Damage on scaled Argus and on a couple moves (Bigger combos do about 1K less damage)
Triple argus (in most situations anyways)
Frame advantage on L george (seems minor, but definitely a bit scarier to be in the opponents face)
Damage on Lenny bomb when you use Argus (It didn't do much before anyhow, 1045 iirc)
Soid gets delayed after blockstun (Suppose it weakens her defense a bit more)
More startup on fake bomb (I used it as a semi-reversal upclose, the more invincibility on startup only makes it easier to react and grab her out of)

And in place of those she is getting:
A few hundred more damage on projectile confirms into Argus (It's a welcome boon tbh)
C.mk being a frame faster and has more range (It's nice but I don't see my uses for the move changing much)
C.hk being faster and more active (I've been using the sweep more during my blockstrings anyhow so it is good for me, however on block I see it being a risk as her LK bomb is negative now)
Taunt being super cancelable (It's cute to do before a round winning argus mid-combo, mostly just a "fun" buff)
Tenrai-ha only showing up after a full taunt and only once a level 3 is dropped (Makes her corner combos more consistent as a tenrai-ha had different properties)
J.MK being an overhead (It can catch people offguard as they haven't adapted just yet and maybe has some uses with a low assist, don't see it being too useful down the line though. I feel her lows are still too slow to do good mixups with it upon landing)
Decreased startup on s.mp and s.lk (Can be useful for some combos for sure, but I'm still going to use c.mp in the corner =p)
J.hp having a bit more reach (imo one of her better buffs, a good spacing tool made better.)
Lenny into Argus more consistent (Has it's uses for sure, I can see why you think it's really good. I just think it's a "need this kill no matter the cost" tactic only

I aim to be level headed in this post, honest. I acknowledge Peacock is a strong character but I just really feel she is getting some big nerfs to her gameplay, losing a lot of options and in return gets meter-expensive confirms for below average damage. Her mixup game was already weaker than most of the cast and it was made up by her damage. But now both her mixups and overall damage have been reduced and I just don't see her being able to compete with some other characters.
 
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I just wanted to say that it makes sense to make Peacock stuff more meter expensive, as she still has the most ridiculous meter gain in the game.

Nothing about her meter gain has changed AFAIK, she would still have like 3 meters more than you do when you've barely built half of a meter from blocking stuff that already did 60% of your characters life on chip.
 
TBH, the only thing I really didn't think was necessary was the airthrow nerf.

I'm still hung on up cerebella j.HP not being an overhead. I can't think of a single person before today that thought "hmm I think this is too good".
 
Uzu said:
I just wanted to say that it makes sense to make Peacock stuff more meter expensive, as she still has the most ridiculous meter gain in the game.

Nothing about her meter gain has changed AFAIK, she would still have like 3 meters more than you do when you've barely built half of a meter from blocking stuff that already did 60% of your characters life on chip.
She does indeed build meter better than everyone else, but you can't honestly think building up meter only to spend all her resources at first chance for mediocre damage is a good thing. If you played a character that needed to build up then spend 2 bars as her main way of getting combos only for it to do less damage than others can for 1 bar (or none even), I'd be surprised you weren't playing someone else by then.
 
Mike_Z said:
- I don't actually mind Cere j.HP not being an overhead. Mostly you get it as a reset accidentally when you screw up j.LP mash anyway, she pretty much doesn't use it as an instant overhead so I am not sure anyone would even notice if I did it and didn't say anything. :^P
/QUOTE]

I really would, jMP -> jHP (Fly) -> jHP hit being gone would take one of the few non low/throw mixups Bella has, and it's not like it always works, it's enough of a risk as is as you already get pushblocked from the jHP and eat an assist or you just get mashed out between hits. If jHP wasn't a high anymore there would be no reason to ever do this again :/.

Also @Elda Taluda has been using the jHP -> jHP thing after a knockdown for months, I would be sad if that was gone aswell.
 
RemiKz said:
I'm still hung on up cerebella j.HP not being an overhead. I can't think of a single person before today that thought "hmm I think this is too good".

...

...

...oh, you're being serious.
 
Back in sde i didnt care so much about instant j.hp since i could react block it then, but now that i cant i hate it and have always thought it was dumb to have a fast overhead on the command grab character.

But i mean, its low level dislike, like the same kind of dislike i have for many of the things in the game i dont agree with such as crossup gregor or some such... But they are only annoying, not necessarily a deal breaker.
 
Swiftfox-Dash said:
She does indeed build meter better than everyone else, but you can't honestly think building up meter only to spend all her resources at first chance for mediocre damage is a good thing. If you played a character that needed to build up then spend 2 bars for most of her combos/confirms only for it to do less damage than others can for 1 bar (or none even), I'd be surprised you weren't playing someone else by then.

I would certainly be surprised if I needed to spend 2 meters to do mediocre damage from opening people up at close range into a full combo, but Peacock can confirm from mid/fullscreen from stray projectile hits into Argus which not only gets you a respectable chunk of damage but fullscreen positioning again.

Perhaps that is the superior use of meter now, instead of using meter in combos that have opened people up? Spending meter to convert off of zoning seems more zoner-y, and spending meter to put characters at fullscreen is also very zonery. What isn't very zonery is having all the meter you stocked up from zoning to then be converted into a bullshit amount of damage when you successfully rush someone down, and that is perhaps what these changes are trying to accomplish.


guitalex2007 said:
...

...

...oh, you're being serious.

j.HP's best use isn't as an overhead, even though that's a good use. Its most oppressive use is its really good defensive hitbox to air-to-air use, and offensive keep-you-in-the-corner-as-you-try-escape use. If you block the overhead, it does have 5 million years of blockstun.... .... but pushblock exists so just pushblock it and you can act faster and bella's out+possibly punished.
 
Bella's j.HP is perfectly fine as is.
Swiftfox-Dash said:
She does indeed build meter better than everyone else, but you can't honestly think building up meter only to spend all her resources at first chance for mediocre damage is a good thing. If you played a character that needed to build up then spend 2 bars as her main way of getting combos only for it to do less damage than others can for 1 bar (or none even), I'd be surprised you weren't playing someone else by then.
Honestly, if Peacock wasn't a zoner, I'd agree with this more but... she's a zoner. 7k is still half a health bar, and the opponent already loses a sizable amount of health from blocking/tanking projectile hits to the face. She does seem less fun to play as, though. X_X
 
ClarenceMage said:
I would certainly be surprised if I needed to spend 2 meters to do mediocre damage from opening people up at close range into a full combo, but Peacock can confirm from mid/fullscreen from stray projectile hits into Argus which not only gets you a respectable chunk of damage but fullscreen positioning again.

Perhaps that is the superior use of meter now, instead of using meter in combos that have opened people up? Spending meter to convert off of zoning seems more zoner-y, and spending meter to put characters at fullscreen is also very zonery. What isn't very zonery is having all the meter you stocked up from zoning to then be converted into a bullshit amount of damage when you successfully rush someone down, and that is perhaps what these changes are trying to accomplish.

Peacock has always been able to convert stray hits into argus for decent chunks of damage, and relatively that hasn't changed much. But if she ends up having that as her only reliable way of dealing damage then she is going to have a rough time against characters or players who can get around her zoning. Relying purely on chip and argus to get kills is a more ideal playstyle against the likes of Parasoul. Filia and even a good Cerebella will eventually open you up. Making her more zone oriented sounds nice but she has had her current zoning capabilities for awhile now, taking her other options away makes her way more linear and much easier to deal with. Little to no mixups and ways to start combos only to try and chip every character to death sounds very.... dull.
 
dekillsage said:
fully scaled ssj does a little over 900 damage ( I believe 940?) without taunt.
He has another super which does like 1200 fully scaled without taunt...but I don't expect you to remember these things.
And he can already do like 9.4 midstage with the correct assists, 1 bar, no taunt to start: c.LK->c.MK->s.HP /\ j.HP->j.HK, tech forward, c.MK->s.HP + Excellabella, taunt, j.LK->MK->MK(->HK/HP) xx Tympani, A-Train. And it doesn't even take full undizzy.

dekillsage said:
I would like to see this tried out, because I feel it'll give more big band players the reward they should get for making a good read.
Not sure what determines "after parry" to you, but that's not an easy thing to account for.
And anyway, in preliminary testing 2 sound stuns adds at minimum another 1k to any combo just by giving you another H Beat Extend later; I can get 11k midstage (and around 13.4k in the corner for 2 bars) without even trying. No sir.

About Fukua, prove she can reset to death you after one with some sort of amazing advantage.
Also, if you pushblock H drill you can make her like, -30 or something? And if you pushblock the drill into fireball super, same deal. And if you pushblock M clone anywhere but point blank she's out.

Swiftfox-Dash said:
Little to no mixups and ways to start combos only to try and chip every character to death sounds very.... dull.
Hi. Lemme be straight here - if you think losing teleport+assist mixups results in her having "little to no mixups" then you need to be more than 1-trick pony, second at Evo or not. (Go read the responses to Fukua losing crossup fireball combos and compare them to your argument here. Your stance strongly serves to justify that it's too strong as it is because it overpowers all other options, heh.)
She has IAD overheads, she has lows, and she has throws. There are mixups, ALL of which can lead into 7k+ and them being fullscreen again if you so choose, or up close with a held SoID.
j.MK (overhead that you can land-cancel!) + c.MK (faster low) or another j.MK, is a mixup. Hell, you can do a falling j.MK then land and throw them before the MK, which is still coming, even hits!
Having a held MP SoID makes everything up close even scarier, and being able to convert throws or any stray fullscreen hit into a full combo if you want...man.

I think you're very much glossing over the strength of 2 bar Lenny Argus, and you are entirely wrong about it not being a thing you'll want to do except to kill. I do agree about the lower damage on Lenny not being necessary, though.

As for chipping you to death...she's a zoning character, that's what zoning characters do.
 
Please don't touch bella's j.hp :/
I use j.mp > glide j.hp all the time and even though it doesn't always work, it's very nice to catch people who down back after the j.mp. And I make use of j.hp as an instant overhead reset. Bella doesn't have anything else like that (since pummel horse is so unsafe and slow,) unless I'm extremely mistaken.
 
Mike_Z said:
She has IAD overheads, she has lows, and she has throws. There are mixups, ALL of which can lead into 7k+ and them being fullscreen again if you so choose, or up close with a held SoID.
j.MK (overhead that you can land-cancel!) + c.MK (faster low) or another j.MK, is a mixup. Hell, you can do a falling j.MK then land and throw them before the MK, which is still coming, even hits!
Having a held MP SoID makes everything up close even scarier, and being able to convert throws or any stray fullscreen hit into a full combo if you want...man.



thats why suggested experimenting with hard knockdown from air grab.
 
Mike_Z said:
- I don't actually mind Cere j.HP not being an overhead. Mostly you get it as a reset accidentally when you screw up j.LP mash anyway, she pretty much doesn't use it as an instant overhead so I am not sure anyone would even notice if I did it and didn't say anything. :^P
I use this often for intentional resets, especially against parasoul's charging pillars while they are being hit.
 
ninja-nutria said:
thats why suggested experimenting with hard knockdown from air grab.
Wait, there isn't? Old air grab was sliding; if the opponent can just tech away this indeed sounds pretty bad. Is this new one worse than the old?
Just retested on SDE, must've misremembered that - was techable back then too

I didn't read through this entire thread, did Mike post somewhere whether that combo on Painwheel thing and in general combos with assists and blob was intended? I figure the assist thing is difficult to avoid without making combos with SoID not work ever..

Broseidon Rex said:
I use this often for intentional resets, especially against parasoul's charging pillars while they are being hit.
Möge der Blitz dich treffen, Flitzpiepe x[
 
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Messing around in training mode yesterday, found out that this update lets Peacock full combo anywhere off the punch move (qcf+MP xx qcf+KK, link qcf+PP, throw a projectile so good that it hits without using an OTG, teleport, do stuff). Favorite update if only for how mad this will make people + the inevitable thread on how do you beat M Gun (it's throwable).
worldjem said:
And make Cymbal Crash mid?
Nope

Although, a change Cymbal Clash could stand to get is making it trigger preblock. Sorta ridiculous that it hits both upback and downback. I never feel super proud of myself when I hit someone with Cymbals when they're just trying to jump.
ninja-nutria said:
@Mike_Z Could we experiment with Air grab hard knockdown?. just lauching the opponent like ground throw. that would get rid of peacocks full combo from air grab, but still gives her mixup/reset posibilities.
You can still full combo off air grab in the current beta. I have done it. You just need to be charging an item beforehand, and it's easy to charge an item mid-combo if you have

an

assist

:^)
dekillsage said:
Maybe we should rub our possessed ps3 pads together.
lewd
 
mcpeanuts said:
Although, a change Cymbal Clash could stand to get is making it trigger preblock. Sorta ridiculous that it hits both upback and downback. I never feel super proud of myself when I hit someone with Cymbals when they're just trying to jump.
What do you think of Peacock's new jMK :^)
 
IsaVulpes said:
What do you think of Peacock's new jMK :^)
Like I said earlier I need to play against someone who blocks to really get a feel for it. If it does the thing I just said about Cymbals then loooooool
 
IsaVulpes said:
Wait, there isn't? Old air grab was sliding; if the opponent can just tech away this indeed sounds pretty bad. Is this new one worse than the old?

you mean vanilla grab?that was not sliding, also right now you can hit with with j.mk and then argus. or combo with some assists...or combo with a precharged item, (though if you are solo you have to charge the item just after launching if you try charging before you have the chance to hit your opponent you dont get enough time.)
 
Mr. X said:
2 bars to start a fullscreen combo is something no one else has, for the same, more or less meter.

Filia can Drill into Gregor

but yeah an actual zoning character being able to convert into a full combo from full screen is kind of a big deal. That said, I'm not sure if it makes up for losing easy air throw conversions or not.
 
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Wait, Cymbals doesn't trigger preblock? I thought it was merely me being awful. I didn't realize it was actually catching me chicken blocking.
 
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