Hitstop Poll

[ClarenceMage]

Lol at terrible arguments being passed off as counters. Because yo, since it has a counter, it's auto a valid tactic and not something that stupid makes better.
THIS JUST IN!

Everything has a counter and therefor everything that has ever been in a fighting game should be included. Also infintes, being counterable by not getting hit, are totally fair since everyone has access to them.

Like, seriously, the fact that something has a counter doesn't make it auto a good choice to be in a game.

So because it can be read makes it valid? Say what.... Ok. No. Everything can be read. Being able to read something doesn't make that tactic valid.

You're comparing random super to infinites? Is this a joke?

Infinites are not even in the same league - notable infinites are often started from little to no risk starters, so avoiding them is just playing the game normally but because of their existence risk reward is heavily skewed towards characters with infinites when they get a hit.

Random super is a high-commitment option that costs meter and if you block it YOU GET TO KILL THEM.

Yeah give us a valid reason why the super hitfreeze is stupid now instead of just being indignant.

If Arty's still soiling you with mash super during your combos, STOP DROPPING YOUR COMBOS and GET SOME BURST BAITS.

 

[Mike_Z]

Hello all,

As it is, you're complaining that you can't block on reaction to a game-stopping 40-to-60f super freeze up close. I don't think you being able to block after such an obvious indication is justified when the opponent spent a meter, considering that if they did a 4f DP you'd have had 4 frames to block instead of 64...and they wouldn't have spent any meter...plus they could super-cancel it later.

Try approaching it like this:
The superflash is the first "active" frame.

You must block before the first active frame of any move - normals, specials, and supers.
Now you can react to a 4f DP as well as you could react to a 4f-flash super, which is the whole point.

Certain supers could possibly use a bit less hitstop so they aren't guaranteed post-flash from as far out, but this whole thing (unblockable post-flash) has been true of supers in most non-KOF games up until MvC3. I'm surprised people even have an issue with it.

Well, I'm not surprised Dime has an issue with it. Even though his character has one of the best supers because of it. :^)
Good bye!

 

[Dime]

You're comparing random super to infinites? Is this a joke?

Infinites are not even in the same league - notable infinites are often started from little to no risk starters, so avoiding them is just playing the game normally but because of their existence risk reward is heavily skewed towards characters with infinites when they get a hit.

Random super is a high-commitment option that costs meter and if you block it YOU GET TO KILL THEM.

Yeah give us a valid reason why the super hitfreeze is stupid now instead of just being indignant.

If Arty's still soiling you with mash super during your combos, STOP DROPPING YOUR COMBOS and GET SOME BURST BAITS.

I was comparing something counterable to something counterable. Be glad it wasn't gambit glitch or ww guile invisible throw (counter? Pick them first)


Also your mind games are fail in this context, I don't have troubles beating arty at this point and I've never had any troubles with him mashing super on me. Also, I've never said anything about dropping combos and having supers mashed on me... That is easy to beat by not dropping combos or by using burst baits.

In fact, MASHED supers aren't that big of a problem, if I got hit while sticking out a move, fair game. But getting hit while jumping, while being idle in the first forward motion of a dash, while being in a dash, while being in prejump frames, while being in neutral or double jump forward frames pre back inputs, sucks.

Also, super freeze hitstop afaik makes moves that are unpunishable by jabs even for 1 frame link punishes... Totally punishable by supers. Not that that is necessarily a bad thing, I think its one of the cooler things to come from sfh, but it's just one more thing to point out about unintended consequences of the mechanic.

Simply put it puts to much defensive power into random supers and makes random supers much more of a problem than they ever were or are in most games and I don't like that cause to me its a coddle to weaker players. Not neutral supers, just the fact that neutral supers are such a shallow guess right now... Like seriously all you need to do is predict anything but sit there.


I think he's going to "do something with his point character" is now a read. Rather than "I think he's going to stick something out"

Which I think is terrible.

 

[RemiKz]

Random super is a high-commitment option that costs meter and if you block it YOU GET TO KILL THEM.

Not really. Most players that do this do so because they have a safe DHC.

Let's face it, A LOT of teams run double, and most characters can do mashed super > catheads to combo off the super or make it safe and go for a mixup.

Just looking at the team Cerebella/Painwheel/Double, you have supers into safe DHC's every which way. Diamond Dynamo > painwheel install/catheads, Painwheel anything > catheads, Double's bandwagon > painwheel install (although bandwagon doesn't have the super hitstop issue like the others, its a full screen invincible attack lol).

All of these have huge payouts if you catch someone with the super flash and DHC, while giving you a safe transition into a mixup if they block. People will do this because the reward is so much greater than the cost of doing them and they are, for the most part, really safe to do.

Granted, people really need to get into the habit of using burst baits as actual reset options for this kind of stuff. It's really great against people that mash supers to escape things. My problem is when people use it in the neutral mostly or when I drop a combo and I eat shit (although that last part is mostly my fault).

 

[Age]

I'm surprised people even have an issue with it.

I think the reason people have issues with it is that it's basically a ~40-60f decrease in startup for those moves compared to the previous patch. For better or worse it's a pretty significant change to how people have to play around them.

 

[Mao]

If Arty's still soiling you with mash super during your combos, STOP DROPPING YOUR COMBOS and GET SOME BURST BAITS.

#shotsfired

Certain supers could possibly use a bit less hitstop so they aren't guaranteed post-flash from as far out, but this whole thing (unblockable post-flash) has been true of supers in most non-KOF games up until MvC3. I'm surprised people even have an issue with it.

Lack of hitstop + xfc in mvc3 is actually the bane of my existence (paaaart of the reason I dropped that game) really glad hitstop exists in some for (still probably need to get used to it though having to block things preflash) (maybe the hitstop on ekg could be adjusted though that could be a tad much)

 

[Alstein]

Not really. Most players that do this do so because they have a safe DHC.

Let's face it, A LOT of teams run double, and most characters can do mashed super > catheads to combo off the super or make it safe and go for a mixup.
.

The issue seems to be more cat heads than hitstop.

 

[GirlyStyle]

The issue seems to be more cat heads than hitstop.

this a lot. safe DHCs are NOT strong because the first super, its the other end of things. invincible super - safe super is super dangerous hitstop or not.

Essentially, like it or not, hitstop is in the game. Learn to deal with it for now, or continue to be ungood at skullgirls.

 

[Oreo]

Hello all,

As it is, you're complaining that you can't block on reaction to a game-stopping 40-to-60f super freeze up close. I don't think you being able to block after such an obvious indication is justified when the opponent spent a meter, considering that if they did a 4f DP you'd have had 4 frames to block instead of 64...and they wouldn't have spent any meter...plus they could super-cancel it later.

Citing frame data like that doesn't really apply when those 40 to 60 frames are during a super "freeze". The game doesn't exactly have a rapid cancel mechanic, so if you're in the recovery of something, you're still going to get hit. Making the super a valid punish. The problem is that now, instead of being a punish for a stupid decision, it's a punish for literally anything except blocking because you're essentially hit before the freeze animation. Walking, jumping, standing still, all punishable. So the oki game is pretty decimated, and the reset game is seriously nerfed (which may have been the intention, I'm not sure. Just observing.) It would still be reactable pre-flash, BUT...

Try approaching it like this:
The superflash is the first "active" frame.

You must block before the first active frame of any move - normals, specials, and supers.
Now you can react to a 4f DP as well as you could react to a 4f-flash super, which is the whole point.

Disregarding frame data for a moment, there are a lot of moves which don't have a reactable animation before the superflash. I'm thinking moves like Fenrir Drive, Diamond Dynamo, etc. There's very little tell here, even less than Updo. So even if you're at neutral, you're not going to have enough time to block. Which brings me to my next point:

Certain supers could possibly use a bit less hitstop so they aren't guaranteed post-flash from as far out, but this whole thing (unblockable post-flash) has been true of supers in most non-KOF games up until MvC3. I'm surprised people even have an issue with it.

A lot of supers from those games also had more obvious of an animation before the flash, or more startup time after the flash, but before the super was active. Currently, it's less like a raw super as a punish and more like an invisible 4f fullscreen hitbox (I know that's not actually what's happening, but it has the same effect). I would compare it to Phoenix Wright's level 3 from UMvC3 for dramatic effect, but even that move has a 10f startup. If you want supers to function better as a valid reversal, I'd recommend instead changing frame data either before or after the flash to make it faster rather than just making the flash itself a virtual hitbox. I really don't think having the flash itself cause hitstop is the optimal way to tackle the issue because it causes too much collateral damage to the metagame.

 

[Jason]

Disregarding frame data for a moment, there are a lot of moves which don't have a reactable animation before the superflash. I'm thinking moves like Fenrir Drive, Diamond Dynamo, etc. There's very little tell here, even less than Updo. So even if you're at neutral, you're not going to have enough time to block.

It doesn't matter how obvious the animation is, if its less then 10 frames its not going to be possible to block it on reaction anyway.

 

[bsobotka]

Learn to deal with it for now, or continue to be ungood at skullgirls.

Sorry we upset you and your God tier EVO champ abilities by having a different opinion than you.

This seems to show a pretty even divide between the community, so I think this could be a productive conversation. We don't need people spouting useless shit telling us we're bad for thinking differently about a controversial addition to the game.

 

[Dime]

^^well said @Oreo

And to add to that, the dp example is flawed because dp moves don't reach half screen in 4 frames... It's really the incredible range of the unblockable properties that is upsetting. Plus dp moves that reach near half screen can't be dhc into half damage supers. The opponent that I play against doesn't use a safe dhc, he just dhc into Gregor on hit, kills a character from a position he never would have been able to before. For doing things that shouldnt be dp punishable.

And if the first active frame = super freeze. Then that active frame has stupid range.

So comparing the worst offenders to dp moves is.... Not a great example because it doesn't take into account that these dp moves hitconfirm into full combo and regular dps don't, as well as have crazy range to back them up. I don't remember having a problem with fenrir. Cause fenrir has terrible range.

A better example would be Bella's devil horns giving hitconfirm into full combo. Because when meter isn't taken into consideration, that's exactly what playing against supers like fortunes cat scratch fever or fortunes air super, is like.

And it makes no sense.

I've played the old games and there are few equivalents to sg supers as they are now:

Crazy damage hitconfirm
Safe and full combo into damage or mixup, if unsafe is still the poker equivalent of all in and gives terribles a good chance at a win they never had before.
Stupid range
Anti damn near everything except preemptive blocking



This is basically comparable to low roundhouse custom combos, less range obviously, but if you put the right combination of supers into place, it has near the same effect for no execution like having to time a cr.hk to be unblockable.

And there's also the whole, doesn't hit low during footsies thing. But that entire strategy got nerfed to oblivion. For obviously good reasons.

If it stays in the game it's fine, I'm just designing teams to take advantage of it. But saying that it doesn't change the game for the worse or that it is good solid fighting game mechanics when it's anything but, is... Well it isn't good.

I'm hoping that if it completely stays in, in its current form, that bigband has some seriously stupid ways to take advantage of it.

 

[GirlyStyle]

Sorry we upset you and your God tier EVO champ abilities by having a different opinion than you.

This seems to show a pretty even divide between the community, so I think this could be a productive conversation. We don't need people spouting useless shit telling us we're bad for thinking differently about a controversial addition to the game.

maaaaaaannn

you aren't really taking in what i am saying, you're just getting mad for some reason because you think i am trying to personally get your goat or some shit.

i am not saying you can't have an opinion on what you like or don't like. nor have i ever. you don't like how a mechanic works? that's fine, and its fine to discuss it, but what i was saying is that it is currently in the game and it would be constructive to everybody's current ability to play the game if we talked about strategies around it.


you wouldn't be bad at playing skullgirls because you don't like something in it, you would be bad at playing skullgirls for ignoring how to manipulate a certain mechanic that you have trouble with to your advantage. i don't think saying as such is inflammatory at all. why is that so hard to understand? why do you feel the need to take that as a personal attack?

if i played sf4 and didn't like how focus attack work, then that's fine. but that doesn't change the fact that if i don't learn how to get around it/use it i will never be as good at sf4 as i could be.

ya dig?

 

[Hilary]

The paradigm for SG is just different.

Third Strike and Guilty Gear were the only 2d fighters I played seriously until Skullgirls. I get a little frustrated about eating supers, but it's never really something I'm mad at the game about; I can't take 3S oki principles into this game and expect the same things. SG is supposed to be fast-paced with a lot of meters thrown around, and sometimes you can (or have to) buy your way out of a 50/50 for a momentum change.

More importantly, it's not all bad. Over time, I'm learning how to coax people into burning a meter for nothing, only to burn more meter just to safety off with scalpels or try and buy momentum with cat heads. That's two meters just for standing there and looking imposing or thinking ahead and playing the situation.

I voted "tweak" because I don't think every character needs hitstop on their supers if they have access to a good invuln startup reversal (i.e., filia or fortune) as a special option, but I think it'd break other characters (i.e., Squigly or Painwheel) that don't necessarily have other options or depth of options.

I also think if people were actually using the alpha counter to fullest effect, they'd still be on the business end of a meter in a lot of the same scenarios but would have a completely different perspective on how "fair" it is just because someone blocked the first hit on wakeup or guessed the reset, when the end result is still largely the same.

 

[Broken Loose]

Citing frame data like that doesn't really apply when those 40 to 60 frames are during a super "freeze". The game doesn't exactly have a rapid cancel mechanic, so if you're in the recovery of something, you're still going to get hit. Making the super a valid punish. The problem is that now, instead of being a punish for a stupid decision, it's a punish for literally anything except blocking because you're essentially hit before the freeze animation. Walking, jumping, standing still, all punishable. So the oki game is pretty decimated, and the reset game is seriously nerfed (which may have been the intention, I'm not sure. Just observing.) It would still be reactable pre-flash, BUT...

Wait, what?

You know you can cancel normals into specials and supers, right? And specials into supers? And supers into teammates' supers?


And you know that that sort of canceling being done on reaction to a 60f animation was the precise reason hitstop was added to this game, right?


I'm just going to ignore the fact that you're attempting to claim that MvC2 supers are reactable pre-flash. Holy fucking shit. Have you even heard of Air Hyper Viper Beam? And you also know that the MvC2 super flash screen ate your inputs, right?


I want to be civil but you're saying incredibly ignorant things.

 

[Oreo]

Wait, what?

You know you can cancel normals into specials and supers, right? And specials into supers? And supers into teammates' supers?


And you know that that sort of canceling being done on reaction to a 60f animation was the precise reason hitstop was added to this game, right?

Yes. And in some cases, I would call that "a smart answer to an unsafe punish." Spending a bar when someone else spends a bar is a sacrifice of your resources to keep yourself safe. I don't understand why it's deemed necessary or wise to give a raw super the power to shift the entire flow of a match.

I'm just going to ignore the fact that you're attempting to claim that MvC2 supers are reactable pre-flash. Holy fucking shit. Have you even heard of Air Hyper Viper Beam?

I'm not claiming that all supers from MvC2 were reactable. A lot of them were, but a select few weren't. It was more of an example of the description I was making, since I felt like putting it into words didn't give the proper mental image of what I was implying.

And you also know that the MvC2 super flash screen ate your inputs, right?

For a lot of supers, that didn't matter. You're right though, there were a few supers in the game that were just not reactable.

I want to be civil but you're saying incredibly ignorant things.

I don't know why you're having trouble being civil. It's going pretty well for me. I'm just trying to hold a discussion while giving my opinion. If my opinion is swayed during the discussion I'll admit I was wrong and change my mind. That's why discussions take place.

 

[Broken Loose]

what

So if every special move in the game had a super flash with no accompanying hitstop, you wouldn't see a problem with it? The reality of the situation is that the thing that makes these moves unsafe is that they're minus on block and extremely minus on whiff, not that the game gives a QTE indicator to avoid them at low risk. As a result, it removes options from characters, it reduces the utility of supers, and it promotes a single incredibly sloppy and boring style of play.

Hey, let's just give every move in the game a super flash. I should be able to DP your jab on reaction because you just used a move with 6f startup and no invincibility against me. That's a smart answer to an unsafe punish! Heaven forbid a punish an invincible move with 3f startup not be a smart punish. What makes supers so special, other than that their usage is incredibly restricted to a limited ammunition gauge?

Anyway, no. No. Very few MvC2 supers were reactable, and extremely few were reactable with a counter-super. How can you say eating your inputs doesn't matter when it clears the buffer? Do you know what that means? It means that you need a minimum of 3 frames to react to any super with another super, because you have to input your reaction after the super flash is complete. Moves were fast as fuck back then, and it was still an incredibly impractical request to make of the players. Stop trying to pretend MvC2 is on your side, because it's not.

 

[bsobotka]

maaaaaaannn

you aren't really taking in what i am saying, you're just getting mad for some reason because you think i am trying to personally get your goat or some shit.

i am not saying you can't have an opinion on what you like or don't like. nor have i ever. you don't like how a mechanic works? that's fine, and its fine to discuss it, but what i was saying is that it is currently in the game and it would be constructive to everybody's current ability to play the game if we talked about strategies around it.

you wouldn't be bad at playing skullgirls because you don't like something in it, you would be bad at playing skullgirls for ignoring how to manipulate a certain mechanic that you have trouble with to your advantage. i don't think saying as such is inflammatory at all. why is that so hard to understand? why do you feel the need to take that as a personal attack?

if i played sf4 and didn't like how focus attack work, then that's fine. but that doesn't change the fact that if i don't learn how to get around it/use it i will never be as good at sf4 as i could be.

ya dig?

Okay cool. We're having issues with this thread because we're coming at it from two different perspectives. I was talking from the point of view that this game goes into beta stages and its very possible for us to change things that we don't like, so we can discuss it to see what people want and if we could get it changed or not.
You're coming at it from we have it and we can learn to deal with it. I completely agree with this, I just intended the object of the thread to be to see what people wanted and to see if we should change it or not.

Coming at it from your point of view I agree there is a lot we can do. Burst baits have gotten way more consistent since pretty much everyone mashes. This is a pretty obvious one. It's just sad when I pull off the same burst bait twice in one match because people never stop. I've been using different ones as a major reset point for almost all the quick matches I join and they almost always work.
Also reactionary supers. A lot of resets or drops are ones we've all seen. The easiest one for me to think of off the top of my head is the Valentine j.lk crossunder/non crossunder/grab stuff. I've found with the hitstop its a lot easier to pull off something to completely stop the reset instead of having to deal with it. They're pretty much never going to be blocking as they go for a reset, so I can do something like throw out a thresher and with the hitstop I'm fine and can probably capitalize on it. That's how I've been using it.

 

[Spencer]

Out of curiosity, how should I know when to burst bait? It seems like burst bait is only a viable strategy when I know that my opponent is mashing... I typically only learn that my opponent is mashing by eating a mashed super... so in other words, am I really supposed to eat (potentially a ton of) damage in order to learn that I'm supposed to burst bait?

I agree that burst bait can work, but it is hardly a great solution. I watch a fair amount of pro-games. I don't see a lot of burst baits, but I did watch Duck (the best this game has to offer) mash out some supers in the last Skullbats (I believe) which leads me to believe that the cost/benefit of mashing (at least occasionally) is pretty good.

Here is the great irony of hitstop/mashed supers, I've learned to deal with them... it isn't by burst baiting, it is by maximizing a huge combo and avoiding resets when possible (vs certain characters) which seems contrary to the vision of skullgirls from what I've read.

 

[Jason]

Also reactionary supers. A lot of resets or drops are ones we've all seen. The easiest one for me to think of off the top of my head is the Valentine j.lk crossunder/non crossunder/grab stuff. I've found with the hitstop its a lot easier to pull off something to completely stop the reset instead of having to deal with it. They're pretty much never going to be blocking as they go for a reset, so I can do something like throw out a thresher and with the hitstop I'm fine and can probably capitalize on it. That's how I've been using it.

A lot of characters can stop that reset just by pressing lk or lp on the way down, depending on how far its done from the ground. Its really not very tight. Not that I haven't been caught by it before.

 

[bsobotka]

Out of curiosity, how should I know when to burst bait? It seems like burst bait is only a viable strategy when I know that my opponent is mashing... I typically only learn that my opponent is mashing by eating a mashed super... so in other words, am I really supposed to eat (potentially a ton of) damage in order to learn that I'm supposed to burst bait?

Well its pathetic but you can pretty much guarantee them in quick match unless you recognize the name of who your'e playing. I start throwing them out after one reset that I got mashed out of. Usually if they mash, they'll always mash so it'll be the first one. I just change which bait I do. I think the key to baits is to make them really believable though. We've all seen the Squiggly one at the very end with her fire thing. Not only is it used a ton, but why? You can't combo off of it in a non burst situation. It isn't believable. You have to make them think you messed up.

 

[Jason]

Well its pathetic but you can pretty much guarantee them in quick match unless you recognize the name of who your'e playing. I start throwing them out after one reset that I got mashed out of. Usually if they mash, they'll always mash so it'll be the first one. I just change which bait I do. I think the key to baits is to make them really believable though. We've all seen the Squiggly one at the very end with her fire thing. Not only is it used a ton, but why? You can't combo off of it in a non burst situation. It isn't believable. You have to make them think you messed up.

Burst baits don't just catch people who are mashing. They also catch people who knee-jerk reaction burst when they see the IPS sparks. If you haven't see the burst bait setup before, it will pretty much catch you 100% of the time because there's no way to know if your opponent did a burst bait or if they legitimately messed up their combo.

I wouldn't call that 'pathetic'.

 

[bsobotka]

A lot of characters can stop that reset just by pressing lk or lp on the way down, depending on how far its done from the ground. Its really not very tight. Not that I haven't been caught by it before.

Yeah I agree, I was just giving an example off the top of my head.
For a tighter example, I'll throw out a thresher when another Painwheel goes for the s.hk two hit fly grab. That's pretty tough to react to, but if you know that they have done it before, it can happen again. Throwing out a thresher (or any other air super) when they go for it gets you out and with the hitstop, they can't counter thresher you. That's a better example I guess.

 

[Spencer]

Burst baits don't just catch people who are mashing. They also catch people who knee-jerk reaction burst when they see the IPS sparks. If you haven't see the burst bait setup before, it will pretty much catch you 100% of the time because there's no way to know if your opponent did a burst bait or if they legitimately messed up their combo.

I wouldn't call that 'pathetic'.

I think that burst baits are overstated though. Yes, you'll catch some people with it. But most of us know better by now (and it is a fast lesson to learn) than to immediately hit a button on the first spark.

Like I said earlier, if this is such a good option, why aren't I seeing it at high levels of play? It is a band-aid answer to the problem of mashed supers.

 

[bsobotka]

Burst baits don't just catch people who are mashing. They also catch people who knee-jerk reaction burst when they see the IPS sparks. If you haven't see the burst bait setup before, it will pretty much catch you 100% of the time because there's no way to know if your opponent did a burst bait or if they legitimately messed up their combo. I wouldn't call that 'pathetic'.

But my point is, most people mash anyway, even without a bait. Go into quick match and most matches if you reset you'll get supered. I was calling the sheer number of people who solely rely on mashing pathetic because there are so many.
How I deal with knowing if a new one I haven't seen is a bait is I just wait a small amount of time to see if it looks like an actual drop or not then burst or wait.

Like I said earlier, if this is such a good option, why aren't I seeing it at high levels of play? It is a band-aid answer to the problem of mashed supers.

Most people at a high level don't mash too often. That's why regular resets usually work. And most people at a high level don't mess up combos and set off IPS too much.

 

[Jason]

I think that burst baits are overstated though. Yes, you'll catch some people with it. But most of us know better by now (and it is a fast lesson to learn) than to immediately hit a button on the first spark.

Like I said earlier, if this is such a good option, why aren't I seeing it at high levels of play? It is a band-aid answer to the problem of mashed supers.

The hidden benefit of burst-baits is that a burst-bait that's done with a move that knocks down on hit gives you a hard knockdown, effectivly. For example, if your burst bait is done with a sweep they can't tech-roll because it will activate the burst, giving you a nasty meaty steup and forcing them to stay in the corner. It also seems to work if you OTG with your burst-bait. So mashing or not, burst baits are useful.

 

[Spencer]

Most people at a high level don't mash too often. That's why regular resets usually work. And most people at a high level don't mess up combos and set off IPS too much.

Right, which is a big portion of my criticism of it. It effectively shifts the burden of knowledge (complicated knowledge at that relative to most of the game) onto weaker players.

 

[Alstein]

this a lot. safe DHCs are NOT strong because the first super, its the other end of things. invincible super - safe super is super dangerous hitstop or not.

Essentially, like it or not, hitstop is in the game. Learn to deal with it for now, or continue to be ungood at skullgirls.

People have vastly different ideas of what being "good at skullgirls" should be. That's why we have such a fundamental divide.

Personally, I think given the power of offense in this game, we need defensive options that are super-strong as well, especially given the ratio system. (This is more a general issue with SG- though some would call it a positive issue instead of a feature)

Coming at it from your point of view I agree there is a lot we can do. Burst baits have gotten way more consistent since pretty much everyone mashes. This is a pretty obvious one. It's just sad when I pull off the same burst bait twice in one match because people never stop. I've been using different ones as a major reset point for almost all the quick matches I join and they almost always work.
Also reactionary supers. A lot of resets or drops are ones we've all seen. The easiest one for me to think of off the top of my head is the Valentine j.lk crossunder/non crossunder/grab stuff. I've found with the hitstop its a lot easier to pull off something to completely stop the reset instead of having to deal with it. They're pretty much never going to be blocking as they go for a reset, so I can do something like throw out a thresher and with the hitstop I'm fine and can probably capitalize on it. That's how I've been using it.

Most folks use different resets, or there's enough of a variety in resets, that burst baits/resets will almost always work in a single-match environment. Set play, or play where you are familiar with your opponents playstyle and random ranked play where you've never seen your opponent in a goo while are two very different beasts.

Resets become much less effective when you know this is a spot where your opponent likes to use them, unless that opponent respects you enough to believe you'll respect the reset. Sometimes in those cases you just Damaramu Defense it and disrespect it anyways.

When playing a random, mashing works more, because they're more likely to drop their combo instead of going for a reset.

I do think this is another reason why Valentine is so good- her versatility in resetting neutralizes the familiarity you get from long sets (if the Valentine isn't a flowcharter- your average ham-n-egger- Valentine won't do this), something that more limited chars like say Cerebella can't do as well.

 

[Dime]

..... Just wow at all the fail in this thread. There is both failure to comprehend and failure to... Read.

In the situations I am talking about, burst baits do not work. They literally CANNOT work. Because I'm not talking about combo situations. I was never talking about combo situations. Getting a super mashed on me because I dropped a combo is extremely viable to me... It's my fault for dropping the combo. As I said before, getting my normal/special moves supered through isn't the problem. It's getting dashes, prejump frames, forward dash inputs before the dash comes out... Basically everything that isn't low or high block, beaten, that bothers me and really shouldn't be in the game.


Also, saying that we just have to deal with it only applies to a finished game... This game is in beta... So yeah... No point in that argument at all. It should never have been made.


So pls stop with the absolutely useless advice to use burst baits.., burst baits are fucking wack. They are almost all tricks that only work once and the best of them are midair so anyone good that knows about this will take the extra, scaled, hits in midair to verify that it isn't a bait, before they burst. I myself will allow myself to be hit up to 7to 8 more times before I midair burst.

Ground bursts are always the same:

Hurtbox bursts like what squigly and parasoul have where no one in there right mind will burst a Second time they see it. So it's a gimmick. Or invincible move bursts where the invincible move goes through the burst animation... But they aren't reactable in general and require a guess... But guess wrong and that's your ass.. so good players don't use them. Burstbaits are terrible. I have opponents with very creative burstbaits like rawtag bursts that give full combo... But after getting hit by them twice... They suck.

There are a few good ones... But those are extremely rare. At evo I didn't get hit by any, out here in AU I don't get hit by many. The last cool one I got hit by was wing zero at salty...filias launch burst against an already airborn opponent... But it's a trick like all of them.


And finally like I said, bursts can't work in the positions I was talking about because the positions I'm talking about are almost all from neutral or generally just after I win a priority battle like my air to air hit first but wasn't confirmable.


But people are still talking about burst baits... Burst baits are wack. If they were good you would be seeing them in high level play all the time... But you aren't because they are generally bad.


-edit. There is ONE good burst bait that I know of:

I don't remember the setup but filia can launch and then airthrow into full combo, or she can launch j.hp (opponent in burst) xx airdash back and if the opponent tried to tech the throw they wiff a burst and filia gets free punish. If they don't tech then filia gets a free throw reset.


That is THE ONLY burst bait reset. That I know of that is almost completely safe and a true 50/50. Most burst baits are safe but are anything bit 50/50 which is the problem when using burst baits. As I've aside before, burst baits are much more applicable when sitting head to head because the opponent can be heard mashing... At which point burst baits go waaaaay up in viability. (Cause you only do them when you hear people mashing)

 

[Jason]

Oh forgive us Dime X for not discussing the issue that YOU want to talk about.

Clearly we have all failed.

 

[Hilary]

I think that burst baits are overstated though. Yes, you'll catch some people with it. But most of us know better by now (and it is a fast lesson to learn) than to immediately hit a button on the first spark.

Like I said earlier, if this is such a good option, why aren't I seeing it at high levels of play? It is a band-aid answer to the problem of mashed supers.

You do see it at high levels of play, but only because it's there that they need the extra avenue of reset given how mapped out the other avenues are. I think it's pretty rare given that most of the games you see from higher level players, they're still getting mileage out of more traditional resets or other means of pressure.

The ones that really fuck me up are the Parasoul burst baits that actually look like corner carry combos with air-throw resets. I mash tech like crazy and burst instead. ;_;

 

[obregon]

I don't remember the setup but filia can launch and then airthrow into full combo, or she can launch j.hp (opponent in burst) xx airdash back and if the opponent tried to tech the throw they wiff a burst and filia gets free punish. If they don't tech then filia gets a free throw reset.


That is THE ONLY burst bait reset. That I know of that is almost completely safe and a true 50/50.

There are tons of 50/50 meaty air throw vs. burst bait resets. I figure top players don't use them that much because they don't care about online play and console version flowchart stuff still works on everyone (including grounded crossups, which generally kill ground reversals). Plus undizzy considerations; a late combo air throw reset is basically just good for some super bar if you can only do two chains before the green burst and an early one might be low net benefit because of damage scaling.

 

[Mr. X]

Lol at superflash removal. Hopefully the confusion ends about thinking you should be able to block a 4 frame move because there's a second long tell.

 

[Dime]

There are tons of 50/50 meaty air throw vs. burst bait resets. I figure top players don't use them that much because they don't care about online play and console version flowchart stuff still works on everyone (including grounded crossups, which generally kill ground reversals). Plus undizzy considerations; a late combo air throw reset is basically just good for some super bar if you can only do two chains before the green burst and an early one might be low net benefit because of damage scaling.

... I don't have much time to post right now because of work... The only thing making me keep this shit short winded.

But just because you say something, doesn't make it true. How about you back up this claim of tons of 50/50 airthrow vs burst bait mixups? One per character would be nice.

I know of some lower level ones with painwheel and double..
Just seeing if you have actual knowledge of what you speak. I can say there are tons of dinosaurs still alive on earth... But that doesn't make it true.

 

[IsaVulpes]

Just seeing if you have actual knowledge of what you speak. I can say there are tons of dinosaurs still alive on earth... But that doesn't make it true.

 

[obregon]

You said that a specific Filia setup was the only one in the game. Filia has them out the ass with multiple normals and setups (good ones off of j.hps in the corner especially where she can get normal jump airthrow resets that let her call the assist to extend it without immediately being at combo stage 5), I know Double has them using a normal Painwheel also has. I play Filia and Double, but I found them in minutes of messing around once I got the concept. If a character has a disjointed air normal, there is no reason why they won't have bb/airthrow mixups. Do you really want me to go find them for every character? Incidentally, Double and Filia having them means about 75% of top players use teams that could be doing it if they cared and saw a purpose for it.

Edit - Here are the examples for Filia and Double that I know and have used:

Filia can do either launch (c.mp or s.hp) then clip the opponent with a IPS'd disjoint normal. IAD j.HP is one option, but j.LP from a neutral (depends on hitbox) or backwards normal jump works too. It's not necessary to airdash out of it, you can just clip them. j.LK cancelled into a back airdash can also burst bait in the same situation. The light normals work better because you can wait until the very end of the launch hitstun to be more ambiguous about the airthrow.

From a corner combo that has a j.HP in it at a low height (which is how most Filia rejump combos work) you can clip with j.LP in some cases (weight dependent) or either j.LP/j.LK back airdash can do it. IADing underneath with j.HP or j.LP can also work. Like I said this is nastier because you aren't in a superjump state.

With Double, dekillsage posted a good BB setup in the Double forums (launch, j.HP j.HK, rejump j.HP) and probably didn't even bother to post that you can double jump into a meaty airthrow instead of the rejump j.HP because it goes without saying.

I pretty much can't imagine that Parasoul and Painwheel don't have this stuff, at least in the corner, with their air normals/flight. Other characters, I guess it's possible they don't? But I doubt it. I seriously never imagined anyone hadn't already mapped this stuff out in console versions.

 

[Dime]

I liked your post because that's the first time anyone has come up with actual evidence to support their argument.

I know about all of those, but dont consider many/most of them since they are situation/corner specific as well as tend to lose power over the course of games..

But I asked and you replied with a pretty correct answer. Thank you for that. Everyone with the exception of myself (because I give specific situational references to pretty much everything I argue) could take a page out of your book.

@IsaVulpes

I think that refers more to you... I give examples. People just tend to ignore them. Good day, off to my 12 hour hell hole called work.

 

[Broken Loose]

I liked your post because that's the first time anyone has come up with actual evidence to support their argument.

oh shut the FUCK up dime_x

 

[Hilary]

@IsaVulpes

I think that refers more to you...

Did you really just resort to NO U when shown a picture of a mirror

 

[Spencer]

Just seeing if you have actual knowledge of what you speak. I can say there are tons of dinosaurs still alive on earth... But that doesn't make it true.

Crocodiles

... checkmate.