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Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

Albus’ startup time after appearing reduced; startup of the entire move is now 35f; it is no longer possible to simply walk backward out of his grab range by attempting to stand-block if you think Eliza’s doing a Dive of Horus. :^P
--- Grab now causes sliding knockdown to give less weird results that don’t depend on stage position and to make pickups easier, even though it uses up her OTG. Plus it looks way cooler. :^)
YAY!

Oh. Is there any way we can remove the weird thing that happens where sometimes Cerebella can me normal
grabbed out of Grab Bag? Since little things here and there are getting fixed. That's the worst feeling in the world. Some kind of advantage over normal air grab would be nice Normal grab conversions can get more meter and damage even at max undizzy and give setups, so they are almost 100% more desirable in every situation

Really happy with these patch notes so far. Thanks for all the work, Mike!
 
YAY!

Oh. Is there any way we can remove the weird thing that happens where sometimes Cerebella can me normal
grabbed out of Grab Bag? Since little things here and there are getting fixed. That's the worst feeling in the world. Some kind of advantage over normal air grab would be nice Normal grab conversions can get more meter and damage even at max undizzy and give setups, so they are almost 100% more desirable in every situation

Really happy with these patch notes so far. Thanks for all the work, Mike!
Isnt grab bag harder to tech (4ish frames?), even if you know its coming?
Isnt that the reason to use it?
In the corner you still control what they do after wakeup
 
There's nothing related to this in the current changelist, but I what I'd like to see - and I hope it isn't too large of a wish - is some buffs to Parasoul's cHK. It feels unnatural to not get anything off a max range sLP or cMP, making her sweep combo off sLP[1] and cMP[1] would give you a way to get something off any stray ground hits you may get without having to fear your confirm whiffing somewhere on the way I wouldn't mind sLP getting slightly less range to compensate as long as you can get something reliable off it instead of praying to the spacing gods that your buffer doesn't whiff. Since Parasoul's cHK is rather bad at this point, improving its frame data shouldn't break anything big and it'd help her out against armor.
The specific changes might look like this:
- sLP, sLPLP hitstun up by 2f so that it can combo into 15f startup moves. This doesn't allow her to combo into anything relevant.
- cHK startup down to 15f, hitbox extended about half a foot in front of her foot to make it reach after sLP or cMP on all hitboxes.
 
idk if I'm missing something but I'm assuming the armor on giant step is intented to make it so it doesn't lose to projectiles QUITE as easily, but having an armored overhead seems like it would make his already very strong reversal-safe setup game even stronger. any particular reason why the giant step armor isn't only projectile armor?
 
Eliza's new grab will throw the opponent sliding behind her if too close. The range for being too close is actually pretty big, about the size of her c.lk.
Isnt grab bag harder to tech (4ish frames?), even if you know its coming?
Isnt that the reason to use it?
In the corner you still control what they do after wakeup
If I think someone is trying to tech, I tend to want to do j.lk/j.mp, j.hk instead, or j.lp mash to preserve the otg and end in an untechable knockdown (or do a burst bait). I don't want to go for the option that they may still successfully tech.

You only really get control vs corner, and in that case ending with copter, walk back gives basically the same control on wakeup. Copter is +43 and Grab Bag is +36, the only difference is how close you are to them when they wakeup.

Here are some damage comparisons while we're talking about it anyway. Of course, spending no bar at max undizzy without assists:
Grab Bag: 2700, ~33% bar
Grab ending in Copter: 2905, ~33% bar
Grab ending in Excellebella: 2809, ~40% bar
j.lk, j.hk corner: 4570, ~55% bar
j.lp x3, j.hp corner: 3557, ~40% bar
j.lk, j.hk midscreen: 4650, ~40% bar
j.lp x3, j.hp midscreen: 4493, ~55% bar
 
I am loving where this patch is going towards :)
Do have some more questions and suggestions, though

1.For Valentine, sMK(1) -> sHP combos in normal circumstances, so does sLK -> sHP and sMP(1) -> sHP
but if I freeze the opponent with syringe-less counter super, these links don't work anymore. Why does that happen?

2.For Squigly, I feel her Lv3 super should not stay out there forever. I have seen people dodge that thing for six or seven seconds,
kind of like doing a Metroid skip in Super Metroid, but have to block it in the end anyway.
I think people should be rewarded if they can dodge that thing for that long.

3.I can sometimes cross-up Big Band and Beowulf with moves that don't normally hit behind (Ex: Val's jMP and Squigly's jLK)
Not sure if it is intended. Doesn't seem fair for these characters to get random cross-ups by moves that shouldn't cross-up.

4.It would be very convenient if I can go to option menu while in a lobby.
I usually turn off game music while I was waiting for an opponent in a lobby, I want to be able to turn music on again when someone enters.

5."Characters that have appeared in multiple top 8s and 16s on multiple teams" huh...shouldn't Cerebella be one of these characters? @@
 
@Zidiane the fact that it is harder to tech is important.
If you are ending a combo and they are in kill range, it is smart to mixup grab bag and hard knockdown.

Its especially good for duos where that 2700 becomes massive
 
Just wondering, could the initial "Robo's H. laser doesn't go through BB's H.train" be applied to Painwheel's armoured normals instead? Or at least the Installed version? I get that the initial change was made to help BB and not nerf Robo, but I feel like if Robo's getting all these new zoning tools then the PW Robo match-up could skew really heavy in Robo's favour. I'm not that great at the game so I don't know the match-up at a high level, but this was my reasoning:

In the retail version Painwheel's charged s.Hp goes through H.Laser 100% of the time if you do it on reaction, and only gets stuffed if you do it pre-emptively, so why not just make it go through all the time? I also find it weird that the same is true for the Installed version; why is it that a fully charged move that has a 2 meter buff losing out to a projectile? Also, if a PW is close enough to Robo to hit her with s.Hp, I would think that Robo should be punished 100% of the time for choosing to laser in such close range. I forgot to test c.Hk but I'm pretty sure it low profiles H. Laser and can armour through L. laser.

With PW j.Hp, I feel like having installed version go through laser is a bit more complicated, since the uninstalled version always loses to it and it has mobility. That being said, if I spent 2 meter to buff it I feel like it should still go through.

Generally, if all of PW's fully charged Hard installed moves (she only has the 3 I mentioned) were projectile invincible (at least against Robo's lasers. I'm not sure if how it would affect other match-ups), I feel like it would make Hatred Install actually worth 2 meter. Maybe I'm just bad, but I would rather keep the two Thresher reversals or just keep the meter for someone else who can use it better.
 
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Advocating for all active frames on j hp to be armored with projectile soak armor
No. Also, Jhp is the only one that moves her forward, therefore, it's the only move that would benefit from projectile soak, none of the other moves would matter as you gain no ground

I would agree with the reverting j mk for big band back to the once per combo version. Not only does it scale, it doesn't look as cool when it's sped up. Would it be so bad to do a less damage nerfed version but allow 2 in a combo at old speed?
 
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Trying to suggest projectile soak armor for Painwheel's Hatred Guard Attacks

Last I checked, Painwheel has 4 Heavy Hatred Attacks, with the 4th you forgot about being c.HP. That hits overhead and causes ground bounce. Second, Painwheel has 9 armored normals. Her s.LP, s.MP, s.MK, c.LP & c.MP being the other five you're not mentioning. Additionally, Buer Overdrive has armor. If we're giving her heavies access to projectile armor then I have to ask if this also gets it. If you give that thing projectile invulnerability it is going to beat every single projectile super in the game. I mean considering that's a 5 meter play I'd be down but I don't know that it would be a healthy change for the game. Additionally, I haven't been able to pull off the special Hatred Install combos that exist, but I know they exist. You could make a case for giving her one or two projectile soak Hatred Attacks, but I don't thing it should be her j.HP. That thing is good enough without it.
 
Don't do that. You do not decide what gets tried - I do. I think sometimes people lose sight of this.
I don't want to do that, because I want projectile invincible things to go through them / projectile armor them, and I want them to be reflectable.

Lore - it's one of the souls, not a separate physical entity. Nyaah. :^P
This is all I heard reading that

On a serious note "projectile invincible things to go through them", what goes through shadows right now?
 
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@NaminoriTwister
Oh hello! Thank you for posting!

She can do high-low-left-right mixups with them that are VERY VERY GOOD. Getting 4-5k off one of those is bad.
Think of her as Zato in pressure, without the unblockable part.


I will see if we can translate them, at least Robo's. She got a HUGE AMOUNT of buffs.

Sorry for my late response, I was away. I love your game MikeZ!

I told players your response in your post.
And Robo-Fortune players are now start reviving since Robo part of change note in Japanese had come on twitter.
I hope they will make it.
Thank you for your rapid reaction to this issue, and sorry for miscommunication!
 
I don't think anyone really bothers with headless because of how well off they are starting off as head-on.

I think part of there not being more headless players is also because they don't want to learn both sides of the character (at least not right away).
70% of the Fortunes I see are head-on, while almost the rest are headless. It's almost never both, whether the reason would be having to find time to switch between the 2 or because they prefer only that version (if I'm gonna play a character, I'm gonna play the entirety of that character though). I don't think a damage nerf would be the solution here, because I don't think it would solve the problem, since headless players have to be smart to reach the same damage. (Nobody better suggest starting off as headless because that would require new intro animations).

I think both versions are perfectly fine the way they are, but I do think H El Gato needs a slight damage nerf.
 
(Nobody better suggest starting off as headless because that would require new intro animations).

Considering that there are pending new intro animations to be ported from the Mobile SG game, that's not an entirely valid reason to dismiss the suggestion. If anything it's a logistical thing to work out that ultimately may not be worth it. Head-on/Head-off isn't the same as reordering your team during the stage loading time window.
 
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Edit: I REALIZE THE ERROR OF MY WAYS. THIS IS SUPER WRONG. ABORT SUGGESTION.

Jhp is the only one that moves her forward, therefore, it's the only move that would benefit from projectile soak, none of the other moves would matter as you gain no ground

That was kind of the point. If you don't give installed j.Hp projectile invulnerability, then all of the invulnerable moves are close range and non-mobile. So basically H.lasering in range of those attacks would lose every time. You would either have to jump, block or use a non-projectile move that hits five times like Hp, which sounds reasonable to me given that it takes 2 meter.

Last I checked, Painwheel has 4 Heavy Hatred Attacks, with the 4th you forgot about being c.HP. That hits overhead and causes ground bounce. Second, Painwheel has 9 armored normals. Her s.LP, s.MP, s.MK, c.LP & c.MP being the other five you're not mentioning. Additionally, Buer Overdrive has armor. If we're giving her heavies access to projectile armor then I have to ask if this also gets it. If you give that thing projectile invulnerability it is going to beat every single projectile super in the game.

Oh yeah I forgot about c.Hp. And I deliberatively left out the lights and mediums because adding projectile invulnerability to every charged move seems broken at worst and pointless at best. The original idea was that it would only apply to charged heavies, since those have delayed startup and give you enough time to react, either by jumping, blocking or using a fast multi hit attack. In regards to beating supers, yeah that would be bad, which is why I suggested only making it on Robo.

Let me narrow it down to something that is potentially reasonable: Robo's lasers no longer stop Painwheel's charged heavy landed installed normals. Most of the time PW's heavies go through the lasers anyway, this would just stop the few times when the timing was perfect and they hit enough times to stop it. The idea would be to help PW players stay in once they get past her zoning, and encourage Robo players not to just through out a lasers when she has better options up close.

If I remember right, in the patch notes stream when Mike was explaining the change he said "Lasers no longer stop three hit armor moves." Maybe I'm misremembering, maybe he misspoke or maybe it was implied that it only applies to BB's H. A-Train since that what he was showing. However, if he did mean it generally as a means of nerfing Robo, then all of PW's charged landed heavies (even uninstalled) and her installed j.Hp would go through it, since they all have three hits of armor (correct me if I'm wrong on that). I know that the j.Hp going through lasers would make the match-up horribly skewed in PW favor, but it is only for the duration of the install and does cost 2 meter to do.

I just figured that since this kind of change was considered for BB but then changed because of reasons, I would suggest considering it for PW, since a the two main concerns I saw concerning A-Train (high mobility and sliding knockdown) don't apply to Painwheel's moves. Even the increased hitstop when the laser hits SSJ could work to prevent j.Hp from approaching to much. I feel like the PW vs Robo match-up is pretty even right now, and considering that Robo is basically getting all around buffs, this would help PW to get and stay in without having to rely on flying above the laser's range.
 
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So I played with beta briefly, particularly fukua and here's how i feel about it so far.

In this particular patch you made M shadow first lose its hitstun by 5 frames. Then you made it higher to eliminate M shadow set up completely. This is fine when you take into consideration the shadows mechanic she has. Then you changed c.mp and m shadow but this patch you changed M shadow to never pull forward.

My biggest issue is that since it pushes them out. I see no point in the launch height change now it makes her really awkward in terms of incoming setups (M shadow hold, cross under, release the shadow).

I am simply asking whether reverting M shadow height change would be no good. since it pushes the opponent back on hit, -5f hitstun, i would think that reverting it would be ok, but usually i am wrong.
 
If m shadow change is just to nerf her setups, can it still keep its old vacuum properties as an assist?
 
I'd personally rather keep the longer stun but leave the height if we are going one way or another simply because I'd rather use it for combo extensions rather than mixup potential. She already has enough mixup game now. Because of this, comboing off of m shadow is almost becoming impossible at some points.
 
thing
I knew that. That's not the same as Beowulf alone grabbing you as you call an assist and with no timing or specific assists or anything else just doing trashcan and you lose a character.

If m shadow change is just to nerf her setups, can it still keep its old vacuum properties as an assist?
No, because then everyone except Fukua gets corner crossups?

it doesn't look as cool when it's sped up
I actually think it looks cooler! :^P

On a serious note "projectile invincible things to go through them", what goes through shadows right now?
Everything projectile invincible or armored? Flesh Step, Kanchou slide, boat, couch, other shadows...

Because of this, comboing off of m shadow is almost becoming impossible at some points.
That's half the point.
 
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No, because then everyone except Fukua gets corner crossups?
Make the assist just not pull out against the corner but keep the vacuum midscreen? idk. It just doesn't feel fun to use now. I don't particularly care about being unable to pull them out of the corner for crossups (almost everyone can do that anyway, can't they?), I just liked using it for neutral. Using it doesn't feel good, now.
 
If m shadow change is just to nerf her setups, can it still keep its old vacuum properties as an assist?

Watch Liam's 2015 Para/Fukua matches. NWM and CB.

I would honestly rather deal with Fukua doing it on point than it being a part of Para, Filia, or Fortune's reset options.
 
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you mean if the shadow was held i assume?

The problem is that you will face M shadow setups as previous. it is not hard to hold the shadow now.
Right, it wouldn't COMPLETELY remove it's current utility, but it would cool it off a ton. If only the held version gets vacuum, you couldn't use it as a vacuum assist, or in the current always-end-in-m-shadow reset loop.
 
1.For Valentine, sMK(1) -> sHP combos in normal circumstances, so does sLK -> sHP and sMP(1) -> sHP
but if I freeze the opponent with syringe-less counter super, these links don't work anymore. Why does that happen?
OH HUH, there is literally a 1-frame difference between normal hit and hit-out-of-counter-freeze, and s.MK(1)->s.HP is frame-perfect. I will look at that! Thank you.
The alternative might just be extending the hitstun on s.MK(1) and s.MP(1) by 1f, but I'd like to fix the bug.

What if only the delayed M Shadow had vacuum?
Sonic is already doing basically the same M Shadow resets with delayed shadow midstage. You can totally do it in loops even as it is right now.

I don't particularly care about being unable to pull them out of the corner for crossups (almost everyone can do that anyway, can't they?)
Not with the same move that recovers you from hitstun, no.

The other alternative for M Shadow is just making it knock down, which fixes every reset problem. :^P

Using it doesn't feel good, now.
But using the rest of her feels way better, I'll take that trade.
 
@Kai
I mean I'm open to trying it. I'm just concerned on whether that will conflict with the goal mike is looking to achieve.
Whatever goes in beta i will simply test out.

M shadow's utility would be better if it didn't knock down.
 
But using the rest of her feels way better, I'll take that trade.
Bella neutral backed by (old) M Shadow was honestly one of my favorite (the funnest by far) things about my team. It was so fun that I learned the character and got as good as I am now with her. This is sad to hear.

I guess one last suggestion. What if comboing into it does what it does now to dampen reset potential, but hitting outside of a combo gives old hitstun?
 
The other alternative for M Shadow is just making it knock down, which fixes every reset problem. :^P

*MIB memory eraser click*
You will never have this idea pop into your head again. You will live a long happy life without ever thinking of changing m. shadow to a knock down.
 
If I remember right, in the patch notes stream when Mike was explaining the change he said "Lasers no longer stop three hit armor moves." Maybe I'm misremembering, maybe he misspoke or maybe it was implied that it only applies to BB's H. A-Train since that what he was showing. However, if he did mean it generally as a means of nerfing Robo, then all of PW's charged landed heavies (even uninstalled) and her installed j.Hp would go through it, since they all have three hits of armor (correct me if I'm wrong on that). I know that the j.Hp going through lasers would make the match-up horribly skewed in PW favor, but it is only for the duration of the install and does cost 2 meter to do.

No you have that wrong on account of Painwheel's Hatred Armor amounts. c.HK has only two hits of armor. With Install it has three. I asked about this on the debug thread while reporting a bug for Buer Overdrive, that is intentional. Furthermore, j.HP has one hit of armor which means with Hatred Install active it only has two hits of armor. I just checked this in the beta to be sure, and it still functions this way as always. First of all, I inherently disagree with having j.HP beat the H Beam but even with the context of 3 Armor moves beating it, j.HP is not on that list whether Painwheel has Hatred Install or not, but c.HK is on that list with Install, but not without Install. However that's not the end of it. Beur Overidrve, s.HP & c.HP all inherently have 3 hits or Hatred Armor. Additionally, s.MP, c.MP & s.MK all have two hits of armor, so they would ALSO need this property during Install because of their increased armor count. In other words, without Install there's Painwheel's two grounded Heavy Punches and Beur Overdrive with 3 Armor and the potential to have this property applied. With Hatred Install it accounts for all of her Hatred Guard moves except her grounded Light Punches and her j.HP. This is all assuming you remembered this right and H Beam simply isn't supposed to win against attacks with 3 armor.
 
Idk if this is a thing or like what the deal is? but i've noticed many times while doing L beam or M beam as robo against Parasoul's egret shield it will get rid of him and hit her after its been active for a couple frames?? idk its just weird or confusing and im not sure what the deal is
 
robo's beams now pierce like they're supposed to now (they're just a hitbox)
 
explaining how I everything I thought was wrong

Well damn. I totally forgot/was wrong about all of that. Never mind then.