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The Unofficial Official Beta Discussion Thread

Just gonna try and keep it brief per topic

Burst
I like the new punishable version of super gold burst much more than the previous beta, but still don't feel like it's an effective solution for annie and fortune looping burst bait/airthrow mix. It's still possible and now a potentially even worse spectator experience should the player fully commit, because even the burst bait option now forces more loops instead of likely killing immediately. I don't hate it as an overall modification to offense, but feel like targeted adjustment of the problem character's airthrow conversions would be a better solution.

Armor
This getting normalized kinda sucks for me, but i'm not really beat up about it. Between this and the brass adjustment, my assist calls gonna be taking markedly more damage. I would prefer everyone took reduced damage on armor, but it is what it is.

Band
If it had to be something, I'm glad it was just this, but I'm still not really happy with the changes beyond the initial parry & tympany nerfs. The beat extend adjustment especially worries me, because I think it makes annie H dp a significantly more attractive prospect at the teambuilding stage, and kinda relegates band to a brass dispenser role. I wanna play and experiment more with the beta, but would definitely be happy to see this experiment go.

Bella
New bella stuff is awesome, really happy with her. Was really really happy to see the j2MP experiment, wish we had it longer, not really brokenhearted about losing it now that the curse of stage 3 elbow is forever lifted. There are a few more things I would have liked to experiment with (L LnL & flick) but there's not really time for that. I will be saying "thank you liam" after every elbow in a scramble that doesnt give me a random red burst for the rest of my career.

Painwheel
I agree with Caio's post. I'd like to see PW get these QOL buffs and retain either the complete retail version of install or lose the majority of the nerfs it received. I don't think keeping retail HI along with these adjustments would make her problematic.

Annie
I think this character is in an extremely strong place right now and will probably be a prevalent glue character in the times to come. I don't hate Sonic's idea of her getting something on H DP in install; I thought she could airdash out of it already? Is that a mobile thing? I don't think that would be too crazy as long as she couldn't do it on block.

Fukua
Largely agree with Sonic's suggestions for fukua buffs too in light of shadow health drain being a thing again, albeit with more workarounds.

Marie
This character is a little strange to me, but I like her design overall bar the laser special and her supers. I think her evasiveness in neutral combined with the pure strength of the laser special and her jumping buttons makes her a chore to approach in neutral. Superjump back>dj jMK>214MK>falling JLP is really, really, really hard to chase or contest for the majority of the cast, and because of her weak defense and slower offense her players are heavily incentivized to basically do almost nothing but this, with a bunny in there every now and then, until she gets a hit. It's potentially too late to change this, but I really think it should change somehow.


Umbrella
Thank god she got reworked. Even if she stays roughly as strong as retail, as long as it's not in the same way or for the same reasons, I think shes fine. I'm kind of concerned that the current build gives her access to a few things that were objectionable about retail umby (primarily ravenous 2MP), but I do want to see how this version of her kit plays out for a bit longer. I think she's really strong right now.




tl;dr: I'm really happy with the beta overall. There are a few things I think are concerning, but the game is in a great spot overall right now.
 
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Kenin brought up buer consistency, I can understand hesitancy in doing more for the ground buers, but I think the air buers should get something, especially for some of her corner combos like the staircase series. Even if its like a buffer after grounded h buer hits so linking after it without a fly cancel is easier, or just adding a little taller hitbox to the buer cable on jl buer. It used to be so nice when buer didn't eat both fly cancels ;-;
 
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UnderratedOak said:
Maybe consider reverting Umbrella's overstuffed rush change? The bounce it gave was a game changer for overstuffed routing.

It solved a lot combo consistency issues that were present previously, especially when heavies are involved. On heavies, 5MPx2 6HP leaves them too far for a final 6LP string to connect and you don't have enough time to do 5MPx2 6HP M bubble into sns bubble pop to continue the combo.

Umbrella's overstuffed combo structure relies on a lot of juggles, making it inherently harder and more limiting on heavies. I believe rush giving a bounce into an OTGless confirm is a needed QOL change.
As much as I already miss the big boingy on OS HR, I think removing those routes was the point of the change. She was dispensing insane amounts of damage, and with the damage nerfs and those routes gone, she's much more in line with retail OS combos. It delegates the move as a DP you can combo off rather than a combo tool that works on every weight - characters being heavy and dropping out of optimal combos is a defensive mechanic for bigger, slower characters that already get hit by character specific mix. You can still get good damage on heavies, you just need to compromise like most other characters have to do, like subbing out 6LP for 5LP, Salt Grinder > M bubble pop for 5MP > M bubble pop, etc. As much fun as it was to use, I don't think it's a bad thing to see gone, being able to combo off her DP at any hunger state for no meter required is already a very powerful boon.
 
I absolutely sound like a broken record here but I know time is running out so I'd rather be too noisy than too quiet. If health drain is the only thing that gets messed with this beta that would be extremely frustrating since she has so many other flaws that remain unaddressed. I think many of them will stay and that's fine but one that has remained particularly frustrating is her very weak pre hit. I was discussing fukua the other day and I realized she is the only character that has to spend meter to get her offense started. Literally every other character in the game has some meterless method of converting off prehit mix except for fukua. The only other character in a similar boat is robo, but she can convert off throw with a myriad off assists relatively easily compared with fukua's two assists that allow difficult pickups (there's some gimmicky stuff you can do with assist body block with some assists but I'm not counting that for now). If there's any other thing that changes about her this beta cycle please touch her throw in some fashion. Literally anything to let her start offense off throw would go so far wether it be a combo or a hkd or whatever else it just needs to get changed. Once again I'll ask if there's any other plans for fukua or if what we have now is pretty much what we're getting on retail.
 
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I wanna start by stating that all the Painwheel buffs are amazing, there is no question about that. But as I stated before I already thought Painwheel was good so I wanna give my thoughts after these 2 days with beta Pain.

To me the most noticeable change was LBuer's hitbox, getting long range confirms on weird situations is far easier and some otg conversions doesn't require me to time a delay for LBuer.
Some Pain players will hate me but I don't care as much for the 7f normal, to me her having slow normals was a deliberate choice and that was always a weakness of hers that I'd mention to people who were having trouble with the match up. And speaking of faster normals, jLP got a rising ioh as of now and I'd suggest that instead of making it mid while rising just revert the buff or just make it 1f slower so it whiffs crouchers. And besides, it was already doing its job on air to air situations so I don't think that buff changed much.

LNail buff is also a godsend, I don't get drops anymore when I miss time it after 2MP.

But now to the nerfs...

Hatred Install nerfed as much as it was nerfed reduces Painwheel's team value by a lot, peaople can say that a DHC combo machine is boring but considering her traits that's THE strength of hers that you can and should exploit. Having her mid, hitting a character and killing them is a strong gameplan and then you get to keep her on screen with assists to play a weakened team on the other side. But now, almost half of the time you would kill a character on retail you don't get to kill on beta so your oponnent gets another chance to save their character and keep their options available. Having the meter to spend for a big punish and not being able to kill even with a full HI into DC combo feels pretty bad compared to retail Painwheel. So if I had to choose between Retail Pain and Beta Pain I'd 100% keep retail, as I said before, the buffs are amazing but her team value falling off so much for things to be easier/more consistent does not sound good to me.

And if there is any chances to revert a nerf, I'd at least ask to revert the recovery nerf on HI. Conversions that used to work are now gone and other conversions are now harder, and it still is plus on block after a blocked super into DHC HI so I still didn't quite understand the reasoning behind this nerf, if that's supposed to remove conversions and make other conversions harder I'm glad my team has work arounds to still combo into HI DHC.

And I can quite see the idea behind a new gameplan with her that Lugon mentioned, with HI not as good you might keep her as a fake anchor to combo into her tag and get a damage boost that way. She being a better point won't change her strength of being a damage machine, she boosts anyone's damage who can combo into her tag, and her point value is really weak with poor meter gain although she is very strong being a fly character who can easily dictate the pace of the match in some match ups, but you'd rather have a character that gets more meter so you keep getting more options as the game progresses.

To me this Painwheel is overall nerfed and I'd rather she stay the way she was. DC damage during HI on beta is depressing
 
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I just want to point out that it's been less than a week with these changes, I really want to ask you all to please play this patch for longer before going doomer mode immediately. Please give it a chance, it's way better than you're all thinking, I promise!

Also 7f 5LK is a godsend for max range double snaps, which was a huge issue for painwheel.
 
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Stuff said:
I just want to point out that it's been less than a week with these changes, I really want to ask you all to please play this patch for longer before going doomer mode immediately. Please give it a chance, it's way better than you're all thinking, I promise!

Also 7f 5LK is a godsend for max range double snaps, which was a huge issue for painwheel.
You're telling that to people who have been doing most of her extremely optimal things quite consistently, I don't think consistency buffs make up for the massive HI nerf for them, especially when running a very tight gameplan.
 
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And I would say that they've grown rather complacent in only playing Painwheel in the second slot. Patches change gameplans, it happens all the time. Rather than the second slot just being a combo tool point painwheel actually has a chance outside of just that. This consistency allows Painwheel to be a point two touch machine. Most if not all people rn won't agree that her defense and roundstarts are better but they truly are if you all just play the patch for longer than 3 days lmao.

Like I said before, it's worth trying, change is always feared. Please try it for longer.
 
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Stuff said:
And I would say that they've grown rather complacent in only playing Painwheel in the second slot. Patches change gameplans, it happens all the time. Rather than the second slot just being a combo tool point painwheel actually has a chance outside of just that. This consistency allows Painwheel to be a point two touch machine.

Like I said before, it's worth trying, change is always feared. Please try it for longer.
And I am telling you none of them are restricted to playing her as a DHC machine - Lugon himself has been playing her as a point in a duo for quite a while now and yet his point stands. Idk what to tell you, I do think that jumping straight to dooming is undesirable, but as multiple people have said, we do not have a lot of time on this beta cycle, so voicing the most immediate concerns - especially from people that are playing the character extensively - is valid and should not be dismissed as "give it time".
 
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Okay but I've also played this character extensively, so what? This should not matter.

I think there's more value to these changes than meets the eye. So again, I urge everyone to keep trying it because it's really good!
 
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I think the push for pw to go point at the expense of being played in another team slot is a weird direction, but also my teams a mess so that doesn't really matter. For me the big thing is just I feel like the HI nerf is pointless / unwarranted. If PW's assists got buffed like giving pinion assist multi hit or armor (I know L pin got buffed but that doesn't majorly change anything) or she got pinion back on point or some other new option, then the HI damage nerfs and loss of conversions would make sense. She obviously got buffed with the QOL, but nothing feels too major, and if feels like we just lost HI combos for no reason.
 
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Up up and away meta is getting stronger and most characters are not built for fighting it with the average engagement zones in SG, not fun to deal with or even just watch.
 
Nobody here is saying that the Pw buffs arent good, Lugon and Ikki are saying that these buffs, while extremely good for the character, are not worth killing Painwheel entire selling point, Hatred Install dhc.

Nerfing HI has repercussions on the entire character, not only her dhc function, but her point game aswell. With the recent nerfs to install damage, Ralph Install BnB on point, a staple combo for PW players, is doing less than 10k, a combo that requires 3 whole bars on a character with below average meter build and high execution, is doing just a little more than a Big Band Midscreen 1 bar BnB.

Her buffs make her more consistent and slighty less stressing to play, but she is still a high execution character, with below average defense, bad roundstart, mediocre at best assists and overrall, one of the weakest characters in the game.

Nerfing her dhc potential, the main and probably only selling point that she has right now, just makes her a worse Annie, which has better assists, better meterbuild, way easier execution and can easily 2 touch with optimazed and probably easier routes than any Painwheel combo.

Again, everyone that plays her is enjoying her buffs so far, but we can still agree that nerfing hatred install is nerfing the (probably) weakest character in the game for QoL changes, which makes a already unpopular character, way less desirable.
 
Yatoto said:
Nobody here is saying that the Pw buffs arent good, Lugon and Ikki are saying that these buffs, while extremely good for the character, are not worth killing Painwheel entire selling point, Hatred Install dhc.
You're all acting like that's all this character has.

Yatoto said:
Nerfing HI has repercussions on the entire character, not only her dhc function, but her point game aswell. With the recent nerfs to install damage, Ralph Install BnB on point, a staple combo for PW players, is doing less than 10k, a combo that requires 3 whole bars on a character with below average meter build and high execution, is doing just a little more than a Big Band Midscreen 1 bar BnB.
Then use her actual level 3? You get 10k if they don't burst your now true burst bait with 6HK after buer overdrive.

Yatoto said:
Her buffs make her more consistent and slighty less stressing to play, but she is still a high execution character, with below average defense, bad roundstart, mediocre at best assists and overrall, one of the weakest characters in the game.
She is now able to pick up from things you otherwise never could, this means you now get damage you would've never got before, is that nothing?
Yatoto said:
Nerfing her dhc potential, the main and probably only selling point that she has right now, just makes her a worse Annie, which has better assists, better meterbuild, way easier execution and can easily 2 touch with optimazed and probably easier routes than any Painwheel combo
Painwheel's meter gain is better because of the buers, she can build 64% now on a full combo instead of 52%, if you guys lab more you can find some cool things with that added meter gain even if it doesn't seem like much. jLP can now beat Squigly jLK, Painwheel can actually do something about val jMK and double jMK she can beat Filia jLP roundstart at times. jump back jMK is really good now. so idgi myself, I don't think she's better than Annie but Annie is broken so.
Yatoto said:
Again, everyone that plays her is enjoying her buffs so far, but we can still agree that nerfing hatred install is nerfing the (probably) weakest character in the game for QoL changes, which makes a already unpopular character, way less desirable.
My eyes only see people that put too much value in one thing and don't want to find value in the new thing we were graciously gifted.

It's looking like I'm the only guy who believes these changes do enough to warrant not having the mashy safe dhc combo tool be as good as it used to be to have more opportunities for this character pick up momentum she otherwise would never have.
 
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I just wanted to chime in on the PW changes and a QOL(actually a buff) idea:

PW Changes:
The character feels so much better with the changes to her normals and meter gain, she feels a lot more consistent both in neutral and fits more naturally as a point.
I don't really mind the HI DHC nerfs, while she lost a substantial amount of damage she still hits harder that most of the cast.
The only change that I'm not sure about is the reduced minimum scaling on HI lvl1s, mostly because it hits her point combo damge as well, but it's not a deal breaker.
Overall opinion: 9/10 and we might be want to look at rising jlp Ioh.

QOL\buff:
Would it be possible to have Pinion assists stay active after they reach the corner? This would be make the assists easier to use and open new corner routes (Example: Cerebella using Butt + Assist in the corner, a lot of the time it will stop being active before the character falls into the hitbox).
I can see this being too much power to add to her beta version, but I wanted to shoot my shot.
 
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Some feedback regarding the negative undizzy visual, it might be a bit hard to distinguish this blue color from green positive undizzy. Take a look at how Them's Fightin' Herds does a similar display for its Juggle Decay bar, but puts negative on the right side. That way it looks as though the bar is filling back up to zero.
 
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Quick word on the final days of getting changes.

The umbrella changes are really amazing. Playing with it i'm hitting every state in every game. It feels really good to flow between states. My only gripe is ravenous m bubble having like no combo potential at all. I would like it to be faster but I think with more lab time i can find a use for it. I dont understand the nerf on overstuffed 5hp armor as it felt fair, but i guess not wanting overstuffed to be too insane is fine. I do wish for the stuffed dp to be reverted to the floor bounce as it helped combo heavies, which really sucks right now. The damage adjustments should be enough to keep damage fair. Either that or letting dp get a puddle splash. These are things I could live without though overall I'm very happy with the new umbrella. (if umbrella lost the 2lk extreme low profile its kind of odd squigly keeps hers)

I think it's kind of insane Eliza is getting away with it again this patch. Skeleton getting no real significant nerfs is insane to me. She can call assist during the hyper armor state that has high lows. And she also has a frame trap after the move you cant backdash on block. I see a lot of Eliza players say just run away she's killing herself, but she can Get you. I think sekhmet should be a strong tool, but snap not being invincible makes snapping her very difficult in a lot of situations and thats "the answer" to her being stupid in skeleton. That being said, i think the only thing i would like to see is eliza not being able to super on block. that way whenever she does the punishable on block move you can actually punish it. Any other nerf to skeleton is apparently too far so I would at least like to see that.

For filia please for the love of god please god PLEASE give gregor a vacuum so that when i get a hit it actually works.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1782429837417709763
Like i'm all for air gregor not having any air hitstop but please I just NEED to be able to hit people when i hit them. If theres a way to fix h hairball going behind the character after i air throw them when they called assist that would be neat too.




thats all i have to say for now. Thank you for all ur hard work Liam!
 
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Kind of late feedback too, but related to the Fortune changes:

Personally, I think most, if not all changes, are absolutely fine - I do have one single issue with the whole direction they took though. With the current state of affairs, it feels like you are more incentivized to stay head-on - the nerfs were milder for it, and it is the much easier to execute stance.

Being quite honest, I would like to see some more hits to head-on in its current state, mostly related to damage and/or meter gain as those are tunings knobs that do not affect how good it feels to play a character, just how effective it feels. And maybe, very maybe a revert to 5HK being over 1k damage on headless for some slight damage gains?

That being said, I do think most of the nerfs were in a warranted direction, especially the ones related to hitting the head/not being able to nom fullscreen, etc., because that never felt like it should have been a valid option for an aggressive puppet character.

Also, a random suggestion - but would it be too bad to give at least some disjoint to her 2mk so she has a more dedicated AA button? Doesn't need to be insanely disjointed, but just so this button does something.
 
Stuff said:
And I would say that they've grown rather complacent in only playing Painwheel in the second slot.
Surely.

Stuff said:
This consistency allows Painwheel to be a point two touch machine.
How is this any different from before? Sure, you'll have meter sometimes where you wouldn't in retail, but she was always one of the strongest 2-touch/damage engines in the game in any position, from point buer damage, install DHC or just tag routes.

Stuff said:
if you all just play the patch for longer than 3 days lmao.
The deadline we were given is May 1st. I really wish I could.

Stuff said:
You're all acting like that's all this character has.
Tbh it feels like its you guys who are the ones being far too dismissive about her potential BEFORE the patch. Her damage was always high, she was always great at converting stray hits, she always had EXCEPTIONAL happy birthday potential with 5mp H buer routes, and she always had solid mix. Yes, she also had to deal with stuff sometimes randomly dropping and armor not working on top of her excessive intentional weaknesses, but fixing issues she never should've had in the first place should not warrant nerfing her strongest tool. My activity online and in the competitive scene I think speaks volumes as to what I really think about what this character has (not that anyone has to know about it of course, but I think at least most other pw players do).

And really I don't think I'm being too much of a doomer, but I am trying to be blunt. Like I said in my previous post, I'd rather keep this version compared to her retail one since the QoL is just too nice to go back from, but currently I'm still fairly convinced that this patch was a net nerf to the character that most people had at the bottom of their tier lists, which is very weird. She's definitely not a point character now as far as meta teambuilding is concerned, so for me either the patch missed the mark or they actually want her to be bad, which I find hard to believe.
 
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On dahlia changes. They are good but i have a coment on ice.

Ice shot: As ReyMercury says the change from 3 hits to 2 hits makes it last less witch make some setups dont work. Additionally, i think part of the problem its that ice its a multihit, this makes too good as lockdown tool so i dont think reverting it to 3 hits is the way, but increasing the hitstun duration to match what was before its a good fix.
 
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I like the painwheel qol and hitbox changes!

But referencing my original post here back in October, I would really like her hatred install to stay the same while retaining these QOL fixes; just to see what would happen for her team flexibility.
 
oddberry said:
That being said, i think the only thing i would like to see is eliza not being able to super on block. that way whenever she does the punishable on block move you can actually punish it. Any other nerf to skeleton is apparently too far so I would at least like to see that.

She can't frametrap the actual punish for grounded axe (throw) its just a 2f punish. Sweep/snap are moves that break the mode, but they are not punish tools.
 
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CaioLugon said:
Tbh it feels like its you guys who are the ones being far too dismissive about her potential BEFORE the patch. Her damage was always high, she was always great at converting stray hits, she always had EXCEPTIONAL happy birthday potential with 5mp H buer routes, and she always had solid mix. Yes, she also had to deal with stuff sometimes randomly dropping and armor not working on top of her excessive intentional weaknesses, but fixing issues she never should've had in the first place should not warrant nerfing her strongest tool. My activity online and in the competitive scene I think speaks volumes as to what I really think about what this character has (not that anyone has to know about it of course, but I think at least most other pw players do).
If we're talking about potential, I'm just gonna be that guy and say that this character has been agreed upon as the worst character in the game for 10 years. Her retail toolset wasn't really potentially changing anything.

Install imo has never been her strongest tool, it's just the one everyone latched onto because she had nothing else but that's just me. Also install is still good, it's just not ridiculous.

Just keep trying the patch, for real.
 
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Stuff said:
If we're talking about potential, I'm just gonna be that guy and say that this character has been agreed upon as the worst character in the game for 10 years. Her retail toolset wasn't really potentially changing anything.

Install imo has never been her strongest tool, it's just the one everyone latched onto because she had nothing else but that's just me. Also install is still good, it's just not ridiculous.

Just keep trying the patch, for real.
Can I ask how was it not her strongest tool, but it is the one people latched on because she had NOTHING ELSE? And just afterwards you mention it "not being ridiculous" anymore, implying it was ridiculous beforehand?

I'm just confused as to what point is trying to be made here - people do latch onto basic strategies and stick to them because they are effective. Saying it wasn't her strongest tool when it was basically the sole reason for 99% of the players to pick her up is just disingenuous.

And the people you are arguing are trying the patch, but like they stated time and time again, the deadline is coming to a close and they most definitely should be voicing their concerns.
 
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Bros, I made my points, you guys just ignored those parts, idk what to say either lol.

Imo painwheel is in a much better spot regardless of losing install damage because she can actually compete with the rest of the cast now and tbh that's all I should leave it at.

If we don't agree, cool but I still think y'all should keep playing the patch.
 
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Painwheel player here so hello everyone. My thoughts on the pw changes may be small or big idk, then again its MY opinion agree or disagree we all just like the character.


First things first! These buff/Qol for pw is amazing chef kiss I'm enjoying myself and and for some reason she feels much faster to me then before? I'm not sure but either way it's great, her actually building a decent amount of meter now, her being able to combo from hard conversion, and the silly buer misinput thing getting fixed is greaat!

Now for the weird HI nerf. Personally I don't have a problem with this but it is weird that it was nerfed, not sure if peeps was uneasy for the Qol and HI being together I guess? I do think the extra recovery should go away for DHC install, the dmg is already nerf so at least let her have it for people who don't wanna play point pw I guess or tag into her or whatever idk.

Personally I could care less for the HI install nerf, it got boring for me over time because I would DHC install, kill them put her back to mid and repeat the process, especially someone who build alot of meter and can just enable that style consistently. Because of this nerf I'm learning tag routes and still pushing out ALOT of damage without HI. Regardless even if HI is reverted or not the Qol is enough for me to be honest and I'm still gonna be fine with/without it

MAYBE it's to early and this is just the honeymoon phase I'm in because pw finally got something but idk, those are my thoughts tho! Maybe I'll come back later and start complaining about HI nerf >.>

(Ps I'm seeing other people play pw now so that's a plus!)
 
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dekillsage said:
She can't frametrap the actual punish for grounded axe (throw) its just a 2f punish. Sweep/snap are moves that break the mode, but they are not punish tools.
i think it's fair to say she shouldn't be able to frame trap with that at all considering she already has frametrapping ability in sekh with 5L x3. with all the safe pressure eliza can output i would like to see something be truly unsafe. 2f throw punish window isn't working for filia if she's not point blank. i'm not too pressed on it considering every time skeleton gets nerfed it gets reverted immediately but i would like to see something stick to make skeleton less brain dead.
 
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oddberry said:
i think it's fair to say she shouldn't be able to frame trap with that at all considering she already has frametrapping ability in sekh with 5L x3.
To be fair, a frame trap off a negative on block move into an invincible super is something other characters can do, and is just kind of a thing in fighting games in general. I don't think it's particularly egregious with sehkmet. If you block axe, you can continue blocking. If they do Axe again , their only options are to bite, which you can punish on block, or backdash, which you can punish on reaction. If you know the counterplay shes dead the moment you block 5h. The RPS of Sehkmet can be annoying, but if you block axe, she's effectively exhausted all her options if you just continue blocking and looking for backdash. I really don't think sehk doing this is any worse than Band LP brass -> LP extend, or Umbrella SnS into Hungren Rush.
 
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FuLLBLeeD said:
To be fair, a frame trap off a negative on block move into an invincible super is something other characters can do, and is just kind of a thing in fighting games in general. I don't think it's particularly egregious with sehkmet. If you block axe, you can continue blocking. If they do Axe again , their only options are to bite, which you can punish on block, or backdash, which you can punish on reaction. If you know the counterplay shes dead the moment you block 5h. The RPS of Sehkmet can be annoying, but if you block axe, she's effectively exhausted all her options if you just continue blocking and looking for backdash. I really don't think sehk doing this is any worse than Band LP brass -> LP extend, or Umbrella SnS into Hungren Rush.
The examples you gave are questionable i think. L brass is a tool you use while spaced so you can't punish and can still threaten people with other options in the big band zone. sns to hungern rush is insane you just got caught mashing on plus frames. sekhmet is a tool that has a multitude of options within it and it's too much to nerf the jump and landing frames and it's too much to nerf the damage, so what else is there to give? i feel like this is the most reasonable thing i could ask for that wouldn't completely butcher (no pun intended) the mode. maybe a longer assist call cooldown or something but i feel sekh is insane as it is now and to leave it alone again would be unwise
 
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Could we look at buffing bellas MGR and excella command grabs? it always struck me as weird how the dedicated grappler of the game has to have a deadzone on their main offense starting command grab, command grabs are universally not great in this game with how strong upback and upfoward are it honestly feels really bad to use because the "correct" decision many times when I have the correct read is to diamond drop and reset back to neutral. As it stands I would much rather have marie's command grab then MGR

For excella this move is very difficult to hit in this game and the risky nature of missing the move makes it feel bad to use considering the lack of reward u get on hit. I think a sliding knockdown similar to the one 6hp gives would be a better rewrad when used in neutral.

Overall for bella while the j2mp bounce was cool I feel like it buffed the damage of butt + assist teams (brass bomber etc) way to much which are already dealing plenty of dmg. Personally think her damage should stay the same but her actual grappling tools feel better to use. I feels bad how im playing the grappler and I dont find myself using her command grab as a main part of my gameplay cause its so risky compared to j2mp.


I really think valentine and umby are wayyy too strong on beta right now and should see some nerfs before they get out of hand. I think people underestimate how strong this val is with consistency buffs, she already didnt lose any matchups before the buffs!! I think she should be doing somewhere between robo and filia dmg off her bnbs and jhk should be a scaled starter that button is cheap with all vals movement.

Dahlia 2mk still feels awful to interact with trying to approach her its so active and always catches your landing recovery after a jumpin. Shes just way too advantaged on this button, she trades with a heavy jumpin she still +29 and gets the freest conversion ever. And the hurtbox shift on that move is insane for not going away on hit.
 
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Lowkey you're getting skill issued a little bit because its not even like LP Brass -> Extend. LP Brass is safe vs the majority of the cast so the beat extend after as a frame trap makes sense. Eliza does not have this option, there is no she's gonna frame trap the axe and super my grab punish, it is a true punish. If you are not in range, then you can't punish the spaced move which is not uncommon either.
 
Trap hit not dragging targets to center makes some follow-ups very inconsistent (and to some extent, clunky overall), and the damage scaling feels contradictory with stage 3. I wish we had some power shift into other M normals to make up for trap nerfs, especially sMK. I think the nerfs where more targeted at assist Dahlia than point Dahlia; Not really sure.

Laser Bullet feels nice if we reload via M/H reload, and moving the sweep property helps against Eliza and Brass/ATrain matchups, but still underperform if we compare to other bullets. I think a cool idea is giving extra hitstun or changing to multi-hit instead, in order to make it more appealing to reload via Last Call.

Removing one hit from Ice Bullet was enough to nerf some doily (and assists) setups, but also removed the kara cancel mix. As Rey said, Ice Bullet had guaranteed nerfs coming, but I wonder if you can consider giving it more frozen time and a big bounce vs air hit characters. I still think moving this bullet away from multihit but keeping the sweep property is better for balance purposes.

I've been using M Reload A LOT now and it feels super nice, especially if paired with setup assists. H Reload still unattractive for me, but it seems the same as old version? Anyway, I feel like all reloads now are useful and unique.

- Barrel kick rolls faster if opponent is in hitstun (like M Shadow);
- Barrel roll keeping the hitbox until it ends, this would help a lot vs projectiles/assists;
- Barrel hits having increase damage, small reward increase for dhcs combos or stylish Dahlia combos before explosion;
- Fire Bullet 2nd hit not vanishing if Dahlia is hit, and more consistency with Barrel Kick mid combo;
- Being able to block after using Onslaught sooner, this would help a LOT vs bad matchups (Robo, Parasoul and Double);
- Reducing recovery on bomb activation, to make follow-ups less confusing if Dahlia is too close of explosion;

I still think she needs some way to get away from Starving in neutral, playing Umbrella vs very mobile characters feels way too much hopeless. The jMK change seems very strong for her reset game, I have some setups with assists but I wonder what other top Umby players are cooking.

Would be nice if the startup of Wish Make were reduced a little or if she step forward more, to make jHP xx Wish Maker more consistent on every character. On QoL suggestion, can you look at sHP xx SnS Puddle in corner? The wall bounce is making SnS or even Rush whiff at close range.

For Overstuffed, her new routes with Rush were good and consistent enough to Umbrella have a decent combo route against heavies, and now most of them were replaced by Wish Maker, which hurts her damage, but on top of that, Overstuffed damage overall were nerfed, against heavies her "cashout" isnt that big and her routes are way too weird.
 
dekillsage said:
Lowkey you're getting skill issued a little bit because its not even like LP Brass -> Extend. LP Brass is safe vs the majority of the cast so the beat extend after as a frame trap makes sense. Eliza does not have this option, there is no she's gonna frame trap the axe and super my grab punish, it is a true punish. If you are not in range, then you can't punish the spaced move which is not uncommon either.
i'm willing to admit i'm getting skissued while also recognizing that it's particularly strong in an already strong mode. a lot of things that got changed this patch could get dealt with before but got changed to deal with more easily. again i could live without it i'm not dying for this change, just want some way for skeleton + assist to feel less suffocating
BicepsAtMid said:
I really think valentine and umby are wayyy too strong on beta right now and should see some nerfs before they get out of hand. I think people underestimate how strong this val is with consistency buffs, she already didnt lose any matchups before the buffs!! I think she should be doing somewhere between robo and filia dmg off her bnbs and jhk should be a scaled starter that button is cheap with all vals movement.
I think the jhk change is a really good idea as that button combined with her movement does a LOT in terms of how her neutral is played. The completely disjointed air button that can start a heavy counter hit combo should probably have some draw back. I think vals normal damage is fine for the most part as not every team is a vial load team and gutting non vial teams bc a specific game plan exists would really suck. as for umbrella what would you change to bring her more in line? i think she's okay for the most part with the most egregious things she had (self sustaining rav sqrt, jmp overhead, hurtbox interactions, rav bubbles in general, etc.) being taken out.
 
Hi, just wanted to drop some thoughts real quick.

Fukua changes are cool. No Health drain incentivized a boring gameplan. So I'm happy to see it go tbh. But it did make her feel way stronger and in line but I think its better this way. The regain on health to me personally has seemed negligible in gameplay. Hitting armor grab is super hard and hella risky so I almost wish payoff was as good as level 3 or if they were swapped in values. Maybe that's skill issue. I don't ever find the time personally with my team setup to get a taunt off but I'll chalk that up to skill issue/team issue too. The fireball health changes were kinda noticable so maybe thats just enough to really feel like she's not just killing herself.

Para changes are hella dope. I haven't found a pea yet to really feel the changes but new M egret is doing things I wish it always did. Mans is out there forever doing his part. Not sure if I really like him going out that far away but I haven't come across a point where I feel I've been murdered for it yet. Lvl 3 vacuum behavior is somewhat inconsistent I've noticed but it is a gain from what it used to be so its a positive. The hitbox changes for fLP are appreciated and Ive caught some idiots tryna upforward with it so I'm very happy. We are eating with the para changes. I hope they stay, I feel like she still has a lot of the same character flaws but some are allieviated with the changes.

Finally Bella. She is bella, shes dope. I can't say that I didn't want to keep the j2MP bounce because it was so sick! Man Devil Horns looks in the corner off an unreactable overhead??? Craziness. Was sick but it was also stupid. Needed scaling or something idk. I'd still like to be able to swag combo with that if I got perfect timing on the elbow at the cost of some big scaling but I can see how that might mess some people up. I definitely dropped stuff because I got ground bounce instead of expected pick up. If that could be worked in somehow that would be my ideal. Also to hit back on what Biceps said, I do think the grappling character feels weak in her grabs but I personally like the MGR deadzone. I never felt hugely affected by it. But I think she should get more damage or something on MGR because Id almost always rather go for j2MP if the opportunity exists as Biceps said and its kinda felt like that forever. Excella is also another story for me. I use that move so much to relatively good success, however I always call assist to cover her. Which is like covering the risky move with an extremely risky move. I think antiair grabs should inherently come with risk but I also think it feels slow. If it was like 2 frames faster I think it might feel better for others to use.

Also to add onto what Biceps said gonna add to the counter that consistent Valentine is a monster. Idk what personally to do to that character but blind her again, I wish I could contribute more but I thought I'd throw that out there. I haven't fought any Umbys yet but from what Ive seen she is also extremely strong. I just haven't played against one yet.
 
PATCH TIMING:

We're a very small crew, and I'd like to make sure nothing goes awry on the main stage and we feel confident that the patch is stable. Since 99% of the games for the SGCS will have been played on the current retail patch, we'll close it out with that. This patch will be prepared in advance to go out very shortly after CB, and then I look forward to watching all of the tournamnets played on that version afterwards. I know this is dissapointing to some and a relief to others, but I think it's the fairest option, even if it's not the most ideal.

Perhaps a side tournament for Beta on Laptops / Steam Decks?

oddberry said:
and it's too much to nerf the jump and landing frames and it's too much to nerf the damage, so what else is there to give?
Landing recovery and Axe damage is nerfed in the current beta, in case you were under the impression they weren't.

Calexe said:
For Overstuffed, her new routes with Rush were good and consistent enough to Umbrella have a decent combo route against heavies
I keep seeing this sentiment repeated but I do not have every character's routing memorized in the game to validate it. Will the Umbrella players just tell me what moves could be adjusted to be easier to combo on heavies? I can adjust the launch height of moves to launch characters higher the heavier the character is - that is done ALL over the place for every character. If I can just do that on a few key Umbrella moves I will consider it. OTGless Hungern Rush I really do not think needs to come back.

SeaJay said:
As far as it scooping two characters raw and then picking up is concerned, it doesn't feel like too dramatic of a change. The timing is a bit tighter/more specific and I think I'll probably drop a few pickups in the short term due to the unfamiliar timing, but it's still doable (with Val or Bella, anyway)
I think people will find confirm timings and routes that work for them yeah, but how quickly you can do that off a situation where Band HBDs from a yard away from you as you're jumping backwards, etc, I think will be a bit trickier, which I like. If players decide to do unoptimal confirms with a high success rate for stabilizing it (something like TK H Hairball for Filia for example), I think that's awesome.

Nezo said:
Less Damage, More Options.
This sounds superior to me as well, it has always been my preference. I've said it before but navigating the calculus of giving Beowulf enough options to the point where we can really adjust his bonkers damage in exchange for those new tools is hard. Those who play him to TOD and two touch off everything while spending minimal bar will complain their character isn't the same anymore if we do this. We did changes like that when he got new tools in whatever update that was awhile ago, but all of the damage nerfs (especially those for teams that are running A-Train and rely on taunt) got so much pushback, there were constant meltdowns on Twitter/Twitch/Discord, etc, I just don't have the time and energy to go through it again this beta cycle.

From what I've been reading though, I think the Beowulf players are happier with where he's at compared to where he's been before, so I don't think a massive rework is all that critical at the moment, thus that kind of thing has been at the bottom of the priority queue in case we have time (and we do not have time).

Carol said:
The hatred...
I think retail Painwheel is better than most think, and I'm very weary of giving her this many buffs and then keeping HI as is. HI could have some damage back but I still think she should expect to lose 1.0k to 0.8k on that damage. We can try putting the recovery back to what it was before, sure.

CaioLugon said:
the change about her not being pushed by other characters introduced some weird interactions like her going past bella during copter, and I had one instance where she just passed through the opponent's assist during M buer and I lost an opportunity for a happy birthday which made me sadge :( The situations where you got pushed out by a character were rare enough that I'd really prefer if this change is reverted (only happened to me once that I can remember). Maybe the ending hitbox on buer could be increased instead to prevent whiffing? I wouldn't mind at all just having the retail version as is though.
Yeah I thought this might happen, that's unlucky for her. I did massively increase the hitbox for the follow-up slams after Buer already, so I think I'd just revert the passthrough changes and hope that the issue becomes even more rare. If I could just make the passthrough behaviour happen for a single frame of the contact hitpause that would also probably fix it, but that adjustment is actually pretty complicated. Regardless, I won't leave it as is.

CaioLugon said:
L Pinion knockdown on AC is nice but please please look at pinion and lv3 ending when reaching the corner
I'll look at this.

CaioLugon said:
I really don't like that you need to have flight available
I think it'd be fine if Thresher refreshed flight on contact, the airial queen should have the good air reversal imo. (Big Band has been the airial reversal queen instead for so long).

Taterade said:
[Marie??] Up up and away meta is getting stronger and most characters are not built for fighting it with the average engagement zones in SG
tarrasq said:
[Marie] Superjump back>dj jMK>214MK>falling JLP is really, really, really hard to chase or contest for the majority of the cast
Yeah I have been looking at that as well and I do agree it's pretty powerful! I've been sneaking around QM and played against some of this and its a bit disorienting at first, but it reminds me of the same way you have to prepare to catch Robo-Fortune when she's finished flying around above you with her JHK and other buttons + assist calls - powerful but beatable? I'd still much rather deal with this over Peacock, haha. It's a pretty big nerf to adjust this about her, and I think you have to full send into adjusting it instead of stopping at half measures: Marie can only call Hilgard when she can call an assist (not in the super jump state), and JMK puts Marie into the super jump state. That would be the end of it, but air Hilgard summons would still be an incredible move. I'm sur Marie players have strong feelings on that...

She is/was intended to be floating a lot above you and doing a lot of summons to control space, then charge in behind them when favorable to do so, but whether that's going to be acceptable in 2 or 4 years when that gameplan is optimized even further, hard to say. I do think she's plenty strong, even if that were to be toned down a lot.


UMBRELLA: I'm liking this version a lot more. I actually don't think she deserves the jMK reverse beat stuff, so that will probably go away. I think the distance she's hitting 3MP/2MP in Ravenous is a bit much given how fast she is, expect to see that adjusted, then I think I'm content. I'm confident Umbrella players will figure out the rest in time.
 
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Wait a sec. This patch will not be released before Combo Breaker? How disappointing. Then I guess I won't get to experience Star Overdrive on the big show. Darn shame.
 
Had a few more thoughts, just wanna get my piece in before we close up shop on this patch.

Eliza
Throne buff is cool. Happy for Taterade. Wrt to the sekhmet discussion, I think a big part of why it can feel so annoying is that the counterplay is both risky and low-reward, even when it's guaranteed by frame data. And even where it's guaranteed by frame data, it can be a pretty frustrating execution check in the same way that punishing M bang is in retail. Spending a bar to snap her and getting a stage 3 conversion that consumes your otg feels pretty bad to me, and getting the exact same thing off of sweep is just strange imo, that should definitely be stage 2. If other nerfs would be too objectionable, I think increasing the reward of the punishes could be worth a try.

Fortune
She feels much better to fight on my end, still tough but vastly preferable to retail. Headless nerfs feel relevant too, but I think she should be locked out for quite a while if you actually do hit the head, so id like to try a higher number than 35f again.

Peacock
M bang, george, item drop, and lenny nerfs are godsends and do a lot to keep her from getting away with murder in neutral and on defense with little to no risk. I'm still kind of concerned the george nerf doesn't go far enough, but having a rule similar to headdrone mine is a great start. Combo breaking is the strongest defensive mechanic in the game, and imo her defense isnt weak enough to justify her having the most access to it of any character in the game in retail. I haven't gotten to play enough peacocks on the beta to really formalize this, and triv said it was good when I asked him, so i'm chill on it for now.

Armor Changes
This feels terrible after 50-100ish beta games and I really think everyone should take reduced damage rather than everyone taking 100%, possibly reduced to a standard degree, but still reduced.

Cerebella
Regarding the j2MP adjustments, an unfortunate byproduct of the new buffer on LP normals after instant overhead is that you'll get 5LP instead of a dash if you buttondash with LPHP. Which I do, generally for 2LK conversions that call for better spacing. I've been working on adjusting, but if the buffer could ignore buttondashes somehow, that would be great. If not, I guess ill keep working on adjusting.

Regarding the proposals for buffs to her grappling, I mean, sure. I think an interesting experiment could be giving MGR the groundbounce IOH j2MP briefly had, as the inherent limitations of a command grab (cant hbd, immediately scaled) greatly reduce what made it so strong on the IOH, while opening up damage and routing potential. For excella, I like Bicep's idea of getting a sliding knockdown on a raw hit. Not expecting any of this any time soon.

Liam said:
marie talk
I would honestly like to see her offense and defense buffed if it results in her doing this less. It has counterplay in the same way that robo doing heli attack 3 neutral does, but it feels both harder to catch and more rewarding for marie with the KD on laser. I really like that jMK SJ state idea, I think that would do a ton to make chasing her feel better while not leaving her higher up than PW holding 8 for a couple of seconds and also applying strong, rewarding pressure.


I think that's everything I wanted to yap about
 
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