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The Unofficial Official Beta Discussion Thread

SonicFox

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Unknown Robo Fortune Filia
With Umbrella most likely being released into beta soon, chances are we are going to get another opportunity at discussing balance changes in a unified front again.

So it's worth gathering thoughts around from the community again for Liam and the other devs to read.

I definitely have some changes that I wanna discuss with everyone as well, but I'll personally be saving those posts for when we're closer to Umbrella's release into beta/for when she's released, but that shouldn't stop anyone from thinking of potential balance, QOL, and accessibility changes.


In the meantime, if you got anything you wanna talk about, let's discuss!

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rznant

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I don't actually have any qualms with Robo's current iteration -- 5HK becoming slightly safer (but still unsafe!) on block and the addition of Homing Directory was REALLY nice! She got the dust jump she deserved and M Danger is a part of (some) optimal routing now.

Her install is something I won't comment much on since I haven't learned to pilot it well enough, and I don't want to make claims of it being over- or under-tuned.
I think making her, essentially, the best character in the game for a limited amount of time, at the cost of heads and unrecoverable health is a nice trade-off -- you're trying to balance between "please don't touch me I'm trying to gain heads here" and "you will die as soon as I get in."
Access to airdash enables some nasty mix and suddenly people have to deal with IAD jMP... or jMK, LOL.

I really don't think Robo needs to be changed at all this cycle but I want to know if I'm capping or not for asking for extra buffs on the top.

So, can we get like, 10 frames of recovery taken off of her tag-in? I really wish it was easier to hard-tag or combo into it without having to spend OTG or use stagger.


Anyway, I know everyone collectively went "Hey, this is a little too good, actually" in Beta and reverted the L/M Beam hitbox buffs but would anyone have any issues with... bringing it back? She doesn't need it, FYI, but oh man, it felt good.


EDIT: Also, can we please get infinite install option for both PW and robo in the lab?
 
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MadWolfDead

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I've been loving Umbrella and the beta so far and I only have 2 things to suggest for the game
I think Umbrella's 5mp assist should be the x2 button press version, it'd provide characters with some cool routes and with it changing in different hunger modes, it could end up being a really dynamic and cool 4-assists-in-one package deal with it either being a lockdown assist or an attack with a lot of hit stun, depending on the hunger level. Even if it doesn't end up being an amazing assist, it's nice to have. We got Annie Knuckle x2, can we get this?
:PUN:

The second suggestion is a simple buffer on Beowulf's EX throws, sometimes I feel like I pressed both buttons on the same frame but I get the normal version of the move instead, this is ESPECIALLY a problem with cold hands, and I know I'm not alone in that one. I don't know exactly if it would be feasible but just a simple 2 frames would be enough.
 
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Liam

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I've been loving Umbrella and the beta so far and I only have 2 things to suggest for the game
I think Umbrella's 5mp assist should be the x2 button press version, it'd provide characters with some cool routes and with it changing in different hunger modes, it could end up being a really dynamic and cool 4-assists-in-one package deal with it either being a lockdown assist or an attack with a lot of hit stun, depending on the hunger level. Even if it doesn't end up being an amazing assist, it's nice to have. We got Annie Knuckle x2, can we get this?

Umbrella feedback is probably better suited for this thread, FYI =)
 
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Stuff

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My top problems with SG are as follows (I don't play the game anymore so don't mind me, my opinion shouldn't matter much):

1. It's really easy to autopilot in this game because it's also a very good strategy

2. Inputs randomly drop (have had this issue for this game only for years and frankly I think it's been at its worse since the Annie patch)
edit: I've played the game on linux and oddly enough I feel my inputs are better on it, not sure why maybe it's a weird confirmation bias or maybe windows is a big stinky

3. Getting a hit gives the opponent more meter than you do which lets them go into autopilot for free (I realize it's like this to promote resetting but you gotta combo eventually and it really sucks for those characters that are below average in meter gain and also traditionally speaking the more tends to go to the person who's hitting the other person, not the other way around)

4. Some characters still just have assists that have tons more utility than other characters do (on top of being some of the best characters in the game)

5. I think characters get waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much reward for doing an invuln move and some of them even have virtually no risk and only the reward to be gotten [such as H chair where the only draw back is that beo is now at a slight frame disadvantage and doesn't have his chair {which isn't necessarily bad, he still has very good active forever normals and now he can recall his chair} whereas when it hits he only has things to gain] (In general I think characters get way too much for doing literally anything but since this is a versus game I figure that's the norm)

6. I think some safe DHCs are really dumb and extremely validating (ssj to install is insanely stupid and easy to win from I almost wish everyone had an option similar enough or not at all)

side note: I think Big Band's parry is too lenient and could lend to making him theoretically the best character in the game, maybe in the future.

I don't want to stir anything as I doubt anything I say will really change anything in the grand scheme of things, personally speaking I think top tiers should stay about the same, everyone should get meter buffs and perhaps even more useful tools though I cannot specify what because I don't appear to share the same opinions on this game as others do.

I really like this game but stuff like that really dampers the entire game for me, it doesn't feel rewarding to punish the same thing over and over, it's really boring and when the dumb thing finally works against you, it's really frustrating [I genuinely feel gaslit] to the point I'd consider it bad for my health lol.

Also, don't buff Fukua, don't nerf Fortune, buff Painwheel, thanks.

((give me M pinion = H Hairball [this will never happen]))

Also I'll try my best not to respond to anything, as I don't really want to deal with this sort of stuff anymore, I just figured I'd say my piece and hope for the best. I realize what I want for this game does not even remotely reflect what everyone else wants lmao. But I play(ed) this game too so I figure it's gotta count for something. *shrug*

EDIT: I forgot to add that I feel that throws are by far the worst reset choice being the most risky but you very clearly don't get as much from them than other resets but also this has resulted in a meta where taking the throw ain't that bad so you just take them (unless it's beo or any character that actually can capitalize from throwing.) At least that's how I feel and it often feels like even though this is the best option if your opponent is very good at blocking it doesn't lead to much and the high scaling leads into high meter gain for your opponent so you have to do the worst option then immediate get out of it so that it doesn't get worse or learn a near impossible to block 25/25/25/25 mixup. (Though I figure, like with most things, it's just a personal problem so no worries just again wanted to at least say something rather than nothing, sorry.)
 
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Nuuance

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My top problems with SG are as follows (I don't play the game anymore so don't mind me, my opinion shouldn't matter much):

1. It's really easy to autopilot in this game because it's also a very good strategy

2. Inputs randomly drop (have had this issue for this game only for years and frankly I think it's been at its worse since the Annie patch)
edit: I've played the game on linux and oddly enough I feel my inputs are better on it, not sure why maybe it's a weird confirmation bias or maybe windows is a big stinky

3. Getting a hit gives the opponent more meter than you do which lets them go into autopilot for free (I realize it's like this to promote resetting but you gotta combo eventually and it really sucks for those characters that are below average in meter gain and also traditionally speaking the more tends to go to the person who's hitting the other person, not the other way around)

4. Some characters still just have assists that have tons more utility than other characters do (on top of being some of the best characters in the game)

5. I think characters get waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much reward for doing an invuln move and some of them even have virtually no risk and only the reward to be gotten [such as H chair where the only draw back is that beo is now at a slight frame disadvantage and doesn't have his chair {which isn't necessarily bad, he still has very good active forever normals and now he can recall his chair} whereas when it hits he only has things to gain] (In general I think characters get way too much for doing literally anything but since this is a versus game I figure that's the norm)

6. I think some safe DHCs are really dumb and extremely validating (ssj to install is insanely stupid and easy to win from I almost wish everyone had an option similar enough or not at all)

side note: I think Big Band's parry is too lenient and could lend to making him theoretically the best character in the game, maybe in the future.

I don't want to stir anything as I doubt anything I say will really change anything in the grand scheme of things, personally speaking I think top tiers should stay about the same, everyone should get meter buffs and perhaps even more useful tools though I cannot specify what because I don't appear to share the same opinions on this game as others do.

I really like this game but stuff like that really dampers the entire game for me, it doesn't feel rewarding to punish the same thing over and over, it's really boring and when the dumb thing finally works against you, it's really frustrating [I genuinely feel gaslit] to the point I'd consider it bad for my health lol.

Also, don't buff Fukua, don't nerf Fortune, buff Painwheel, thanks.

((give me M pinion = H Hairball [this will never happen]))

Also I'll try my best not to respond to anything, as I don't really want to deal with this sort of stuff anymore, I just figured I'd say my piece and hope for the best. I realize what I want for this game does not even remotely reflect what everyone else wants lmao. But I play(ed) this game too so I figure it's gotta count for something. *shrug*

EDIT: I forgot to add that I feel that throws are by far the worst reset choice being the most risky but you very clearly don't get as much from them than other resets but also this has resulted in a meta where taking the throw ain't that bad so you just take them (unless it's beo or any character that actually can capitalize from throwing.) At least that's how I feel and it often feels like even though this is the best option if your opponent is very good at blocking it doesn't lead to much and the high scaling leads into high meter gain for your opponent so you have to do the worst option then immediate get out of it so that it doesn't get worse or learn a near impossible to block 25/25/25/25 mixup. (Though I figure, like with most things, it's just a personal problem so no worries just again wanted to at least say something rather than nothing, sorry.)
Not exactly a suggestion & im not officially a mod so feel free to delete but feel it’s important to say not just here but to anyone viewing these forums: say what you feel you need to say regardless of who disagrees. Talking to a bunch of people who lurk, I hear the same thing: “I don’t wanna put out these different ideas” or “no one thinks this” when reality is usually a lot different & you really don’t know how many people are staying silent. People you see on qm all the time.

ultimately upto devs on what happens when & how, so saying ‘this won’t make it’ kinda defeats the purpose lol, but either way for the future I hope everyone feels more emboldened to talk, agree — & especially disagree. its an iterative process & much of this can’t be proven/disproven until played with anyways so just speak your peace right?
 

UnsafeonHit

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Getting my thoughts out of the way early. I think the main characters that should be addressed before anyone else should be Peacock, Fortune and Annie in that order.


Peacock's meter build, damage, and neutral control are all insane. There are a few things I have in mind to kind of lessen her overall threat but keep her core in tact

1. 5HP not going fullscreen

Yeah starting off big I know. This though I think would effectively help a lot with dealing with her fullscreen neutral presence since 5HP fills a lot of gaps in between George's and item drops it would make it easier to get in vs her while also making her have to close the distance to make use of certain blockstrings or mixups.

2.214KK (Lonesome Lenny) costs 2 bars/Universal interaction

Part of the strength of Lenny is its low cost for shutting down other projectiles and essentially being a shield to Peacock. And at 1 bar cost she can use it on low meter and zone enough to build another bar(after the first one is gone) to use the super again. Making this cost 2 bars or allowing theenemy to interact with it the same way as her would make it less oppressive. Considering it's damage and Lenny>Argus combos and Lenny based resets I would say the 2 bar cost would be better

3. (Only without 5HP change) teleports have a set distance rather than set position

This is a target at her fullscreen mixups nothing else

Annie

I like that Annie currently can kind of wrap every team together with both amazing assists and DHC ability. I think her main hits should be to her more used assists (H Destruction Pillar) and (H North Knuckle) im not sure what would be done for H DP but H Knuckle i think should lose the wall stick as an assist. I think her tool kit is really well made and nothing exactly "breaks" her, so im not quite sure how she would be touched outside of lowering her damage

Fortune I currently need to revise thoughts on before including but i want to see what other people think about these 3
 
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Ikkisoad

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:PEA: For Peacock, I really would revert the hitbox buff on MBang, I think MF calling it out and low profiling it was interesting. And let's be honest Peacock doesn't need buffs.
Since I started playing this game, I was always surprised by the fact that Lenny is a level 1 super; so I'd suggest it be a Lvl 2.

:CER: For Bella, Lvl 3 would be a more interesting super if it was high risk high reward. Currently you just throw it out there and if they get hit they explode and if they block, you are +15 (ofc they can punish if they pushblock the FIRST hit of it, but that isn't something as a DHC). It being a high risk would really make it hitting low more acceptable (ngl I love the idea of it hitting low, but this super really is overtunned). Something I thought recently, maybe lock plus on block lvl 3 behind her taunt, or maybe only hit low if she did her taunt?

Also, following the trend of lvl 2s being weaker as a DHC, maybe that would be the path to nerf Annie's lvl 2; since that is the one point I see a lot of ppl making about Annie's current state.
 
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Cattfish

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Starting off my post saying that I think the Beo buffs last patch were great. The two primary Double nerfs were very fair & surprisingly I am not here to lament over them. I'm also going to try and shut my mouth when it comes to Robo balance if I can help it. Fukua discussion has been talked about for months and anything I'd say would just be repetitive.

:BEO: I will give this one last patch to ask about full projectile armor on all variations of Hurl. This would ensure H Hurl's hitbox isn't erased after clashing with H George (common issue), but would also be helpful vs TK M Beam, L Luger, air Dead Crosses. L Hurl having the projectile armor would ensure that headless would potentially not absorb the attack and ruin Beo's combos (less). I'm sure chairless 2MK vs Headless is a very difficult situation to account for.

After getting EX Blitzer I don't really care about j.3HK anymore. EX blitzer is so good. Damn.

:BIG: Esoteric change, and one for casual players. Give 5MP all of its notes regardless of meter and don't have notes jack up the undizzy. I understand it might be more tweaking than you'd want for something silly. But part of Band's appeal for casual players and spectators is his trumpet and giving players the option to style over dealing real damage seems perfectly fine. Let the QM Bands learn their funny routes.

:ROB: I will also make one last pleading attempt to let Robo combo after her throw with one head. Re-using Det mode's head exchange animation seems like the easiest option. I understand 5HK got buffed to try and compensate for other changes, but Robo's throw feels so unrewarding. Throw>M Beam is good if you have the advantage to play keepaway again, but otherwise spending 1bar for Magnet is just so costly.


I'm sure Annie balance is in the works and I have no reason to comment on her until we see what happens.
 
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SonicFox

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Bumping thread for patch notes today! Definitely talk about annie peacock and fortune stuff here!
 

Liam

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Hello, the first balance patch is live.

This thread seems like a good a place to discuss as any.

Note that however, in light of the holidays, the next update likely won’t occur until late January. I will also unfortunately be unavailable until then as well... I'll try and catch up on everything when I'm back.

Super early note, but one change I'll likely be making is having L North Knuckle assist maintain the follow-up slam.

 

BellaFeng4Eternity

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Thanks, Liam. The one thing I would like to see so far, from what I've seen, is to revert the H and L Knuckle nerfs and the j.MP hitstun reduction on Annie. There are some other unnecessary nerfs or changes I would like to list but those are the only ones I can think of for now. Other than that, she's still strong overall. Anyways, have a Merry Christmas and looking forward to more balance changes heading into next month! (^_^)-b
 
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KoreanYardSale

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Since we're moving back into patches for existing characters, I think it is worth bringing up some slight double changes. Double is still a great utility character, but as time has moved on other utility characters have gotten much needed buffs and her nerfs seemly slightly unnecessary in retrospect.

Catheads - I completely understand the frustration with super on block -> catheads pressure, so I understand the nerf, but I would really like for catheads to come back on DHC specifically ON HIT. A possibility is maybe just giving her a 75% timer on hit, although I think a return to full would be fine. I know that para was one of the only characters really using this damage, but as someone who used it it really feels rough losing a large damage source when other popular shells can 2 touch so easily with Annie Band Bella etc.

L gun - I just don't think this nerf was really needed, and after playing with it for a little bit I think reverting it would be really nice for her. H shot can be unreliable at times and l shot hit a really good area but is still can still be a risky projectile in a game where people are constantly jumping, so not getting a combo at some ranges is a little sad.

That is about it, I think double is fine and still an amazing support, I just think that with the amazing buffs to many supports like the rise of robo and annie, double getting nerfed became unnecessary, but still went through because of the time she spent as one of the games best supports. She now has amazing competition which I full support, I love more choice while teambuilding for everyone, but it'd be nice if she was given this extra little bit.
 

Triviality

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I'm all for the peacock changes except this 5 frame change on M-George

IdK what the logic on the Rekka-style bomb throwing is, but all my links and conversions regarding spacing out my

S.hp -> Mbomb -> Lbomb have become much, much, harder

If the idea was to stump the forced grounded trades, doesn't the 70% bomb scaling nerf now remedy this?
 

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Since we're moving back into patches for existing characters, I think it is worth bringing up some slight double changes. Double is still a great utility character, but as time has moved on other utility characters have gotten much needed buffs and her nerfs seemly slightly unnecessary in retrospect.

Catheads - I completely understand the frustration with super on block -> catheads pressure, so I understand the nerf, but I would really like for catheads to come back on DHC specifically ON HIT. A possibility is maybe just giving her a 75% timer on hit, although I think a return to full would be fine. I know that para was one of the only characters really using this damage, but as someone who used it it really feels rough losing a large damage source when other popular shells can 2 touch so easily with Annie Band Bella etc.

L gun - I just don't think this nerf was really needed, and after playing with it for a little bit I think reverting it would be really nice for her. H shot can be unreliable at times and l shot hit a really good area but is still can still be a risky projectile in a game where people are constantly jumping, so not getting a combo at some ranges is a little sad.

That is about it, I think double is fine and still an amazing support, I just think that with the amazing buffs to many supports like the rise of robo and annie, double getting nerfed became unnecessary, but still went through because of the time she spent as one of the games best supports. She now has amazing competition which I full support, I love more choice while teambuilding for everyone, but it'd be nice if she was given this extra little bit.
+ support for L gun reversion
+support for giving DHC catheads one more air grab of hits
 

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I'm gonna just discuss my thoughts on Annie so far from my initial testings.

There are 3 glaring things that I feel should just be reverted back as the changes I feel make her feel incredibly less fun, altered her main gameplan, and even made her unstable in certain scenarios.

1. J.MP:

This change to me personally is the biggest issue I have right now. It literally removed some of her more important routes and resets that she had. For example, her universal goto reset route was J.MP --> J.LP or J.LK into some cool mixup shenanigans. With the removal of this it legitimately feels like I can only do jab into J.HP crossup or not. All the creative ways to mixup someone were removed with this change, and now I feel rather bland just going for my reset options.

The second reasoning is that she can no longer do stuff like J.MP into link st.HK and even has difficulty doing F.MP stagger. With the overall damage nerfs to her other moves, I really see no reason to adjust the cooler routing that she was able to access from this move.

2. North Knuckle Adjustment:

This change to me also feels really odd to me. I legitimately felt of all the problems that Annie had, her assists weren't one of them. I felt that each version of this assist had it's strengths and weaknesses, while all of them being unified by one weakness which is the followups increasing undizzy compared to any other assist. H.North knuckle was one of the slower assists in the game with, and now with the hit being scaled even more and the knockback being even more unstable for followups, it just feels incredibly neutered for no reason. The only time I felt the assist was legit broken for a character was for Robo Fortune, but to me, that is where the creative team building and new "meta" teams get to come into fruition. I don't want to see assists being nerfed because it makes another character too strong, otherwise I feel we would have to absolutely relook at assists like H.Brass and Robo Beam. The assist just feels now like a "don't pick me" assist which already disrupts soooooo many teams that wanted to use them, and I'm against any of that creativity being suppressed, even when I felt that the assist in the grand scheme was just "good" at best. The nerfs to this assist alone make me feel like I have to play a new team and that the work I put into my current one was for nothing.

3. Dash speed

Annie's primary goal is to get a fireball out and be quick on her feet for her conversions. I feel this nerf was to prevent pillar of creation conversions, but I feel it overall impacted her general gameplan which is to run in front of the fireball. The whole point of fighting against an Annie is to not let her control the entire pace of the game by using your movement to close in on H.Fireball and to threaten her for overextending. Now it feels like she's using the H Fireball to just "zone" if you will rather go in and pressure the opponent due to the nerf of her dash speed. She can't get as aggressive as she wants anymore, which I felt was a staple to playing Annie.

These 3 general changes above I believe while Annie would still be a solid character, I feel the things I found most fun and enjoyable about Annie all got removed in one swift function. And I felt these things weren't exactly beaming issues about Annie. I feel everyone mostly talked about Pillar of Creation and her Damage output being too high, which I feel you have acknowledged pretty spot on in this version of the game. All that other stuff above just feels too harsh to her general gameplan. This was the primary thing I feared wouldn't be touched about her, and the excitement and creativity I felt playing with her with these changes I feel all got taken away from me, so I definitely feel a bit down about this stuff. I feel other Annie's too from my brief talkin in Sage's stream chat share some sentiments in this changes as well, though I'll leave them to post their own opinion.

TLDR, the nerf hammer was too hard on her.
________________________________
I agree with most of the other changes left behind from Annie, though I do think as a LEVEL 2 ON POINT, that Pillar of Creation should be reconsidered to be how it was on retail. It just feels like a really weak level 2 now in comparison to the other level 2's on point, so perhaps something special could be considered again, but isn't my main focus right now.
 

Liam

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Quick update (3.3.16) is now live on Windows, with Mac and Linux on the way shortly.

Two changes:
- Fixed a bug with cHK reversal buffer during install for Annie.
- L North Knuckle does the slam on block, as an assist.

(Haven't read anything in this thread, busy with builds)
 

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M george changes seem like they buff it as a pseudo-reversal/combo-breaking tool and nerf midrange projectile conversions (as Triv mentioned). Mastering midrange conversions off projectiles is a super interesting and fun part of the character, while M george combo-breaking is the main issue people seem to have with it, so I'm not sure what the intent was there.

I'm not a fan of the h tp changes either. Nerfing tp + assist as a free runaway tool is even more important than nerfing TJ 50/50 setups, in my opinion, so making the move super convoluted just for the sake of keeping it in as a runaway tool just adds unnecessary confusion.

Above all, though, since the intent of the patch was to introduce the "most contentious changes" I really wish it had more severe nerfs to m item vortex (removing the drag-down effect on lv 2 hit, completely nuking damage + UD for conversions off it, give it a blue bounce idk). I think the community would be able to look at the rest of Peacock's kit more honestly if her unparalleled vortex wasn't there, and if she turns out to be too weak without it (which I doubt) we could always consider reverting to "softer" nerfs like the ones M item has been getting thus far. A keepaway zoning character having the best vortex in the game on hit is the most obvious discrepancy in her kit and it's gone pretty much unaddressed throughout these beta cycles.
 

Stuff

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I don't understand why Fiber has to suck now only for you to do the thing you're supposed to do which is to get near her and make it blocked...

A throw weakness makes sense when that DP is safe, but if all we're doing is promoting that you should get close to her, (which you always could and then BLOCK it and it's actually punishable) I don't understand why it should be throwable when it's at its best FAR AWAY and even pre-nerf punishable up close on BLOCK (and in some cases, even on whiff).

I get that everybody hates Fortune and punishing a whiffed fiber is **hard** but what's the point if it doesn't really solve the thing people actually have a problem with?

Secondly, why nerf Headless fiber at all? It only has throw invuln on it, you already have options against it because it's specifically NOT invuln, it already has a trade off so why make it worse? The whole reason Headless fiber even has throw invuln at all is because it was so bad.

Like jLK whatever I think that's more of a skill issue but in the end, whatever I can understand it (even though I think it's dumb) but making fiber worse because everyone hates fiber on WHIFF is a bit silly. (Plenty of characters have big Light Button that does neutral but whatever)

Also I don't understand why her hurtbox is bigger in a game with giant hitboxes on most characters but whatever those thoughts will (thankfully) be kept in my head.

Third, if you're going to nerf H beam like that (robo stays on the screen for centuries) why not do that for every projectile as assist? napalm and crescent can be used in similar ways and don't have the same consequences (and L george assist is just straight up a war crime), I just don't get the wishy washyness on everything
 

FuLLBLeeD

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The Fortune nerfs are fair imo. If a DP is going to be whiff cancellable as a movement tool, then it doesn't also need to beat throws.
 

alexpi

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i'm not gonna pretend i'm in Liam's head, but my guess is that the target of the fiber nerf is fiber + lockdown assist. Like, anyone can do DP + butcher's blade, but MF is the only one that gets to go in if the other player backs up to try and avoid the assist.
 
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mpgame99

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At the risk of being ratio'd, I think double players are being a tiny bit doomer-ish about her current state. While yes she did receive some nerfs to catheads they were very much needed. Catheads was a lockdown, safe dhc, and damage super all at a once and I don't think I need to explain why that's a little much. Even in its current state, it's a safe DHC that lets the attacker go for like 2 mixups if it's blocked and a full combo if it hits. It may not be as good as it used to be but it's still one of the stronger DHCs and is in a more than fine spot. L gun is still a decent enough anti-zoning tool, and while getting combos after it from really far was nice, it still does its job of focusing people to be more careful how they place projectiles which help double get closer.

I understand that Annie kinda pushed her out of the spotlight but someone being better than her does not mean she's in a bad spot. I think out of all the glue characters double's biggest strength was how she was consistent and reliable and that hasn't changed. She has strong neutral, is good without assists, spends meter for comebacks well, on top of her solid assists and great DHCs. Yeah, she doesn't have the same highs as the other glue character but her lows aren't as bad as theirs. She doesn't just get bullied in neutral in some MUs like band and Bella do, nor does she just die if someone touchers her like Robo. I think players are just not used to double NOT being the easiest way to make a team better and are lost on what to do even though she's not actually bad. I think people should just like calm down a little. Annie and Robo, who are both glue characters, just got nerfed this patch along with fortune and peacock, which means that most of the characters most people consider better than her are now worse and she could very well end up being one of the best again. Even if she's not back to where she was, a top-tier character dropping to high mid (at absolute worst I might add) is fine and to be blunt I'd much rather focus on other things than a top 5 character maybe being top 6 instead.

For stuff that actually changed I think I'm fine with pretty much everything on paper and need more time to see if my mind changes. Even my baby H beam getting nerfed.
 

Lex

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Seconding MPGame re:Double. The nerfs she received in the Annie beta were perfectly targeted and executed imo and I'd be really against reverting them. Tbh, I still thought she was top tier even before these Annie nerfs so I don't really see why she'd need/deserve buffs.
Catheads was frankly busted as a safe DHC and a combo DHC before (also rather boring to watch as a combo DHC) and even in its nerfed state now I personally still think it's the best safe DHC in the game given it only costs 1 bar and gives youmultiple chances to mix on block. That along with Puddle actually being a really good combo DHC (now catheads isn't the best tool for everything on DHC :P ) means I don't agree with calls for reverting the nerf.
L Luger nerf was overall a minor change which had its biggest impact in MUs where Double dominated (eg Eliza, Beo and Band) while not having that big of an impact in other MUs. That's basically the perfect nerf for a character whose overall strength on point was/is fine imo. You also still get conversions from most distances if you're willing to spend meter on crHP Clide Puddle.

1st impressions re Fortune nerfs: I think the H Fiber nerfs are perfectly warranted (the rule in SG re:meterless DPs seems to generally be that your DP can be kinda crazy in some way but if it is then it'll only be strike invuln so Fiber fits that rule now). Hurtbox changes in neutral also sound like a good idea though it's the kind of thing that you can only properly evaluate through matches (and I won't be able to play matches to try them till after new years waaah ;_; ).
I don't think the Fortune jLK changes were really warranted given it's a tier below a good number of other characters' light air buttons and Fortune's other a2as are middling (imo it's only oppressive in MUs where the opponent has poor a2as and anti-airs). That said, it's not like the tool got destroyed or anything so I won't protest too much. I'll try to test tech over the next few days to make sure that the hurtbox/hitbox changes haven't affected any common routes/resets/burst baits/etc as well and if it does I'll post that info here.
 

Stuff

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The Fortune nerfs are fair imo. If a DP is going to be whiff cancellable as a movement tool, then it doesn't also need to beat throws.
Here's the thing though, it's a nerf that brings nothing to the table, the punish for fiber was always to get close so that you block it and punish it, hell this would be a better punish than going for a throw, nerf or not so that said, I don't understand why it's there at all.
i'm not gonna pretend i'm in Liam's head, but my guess is that the target of the fiber nerf is fiber + lockdown assist. Like, anyone can do DP + butcher's blade, but MF is the only one that gets to go in if the other player backs up to try and avoid the assist.
I have to disagree here, any character with a low recovery DP can do this, the difference is that fortune has access to it much faster if she makes fiber whiff which isn't that hard but even then that doesn't solve anything she would still be able to do this (If pressure is the problem why not actually tackle that?), and if fiber is blocked [an actual reversal timing would negate assist since you can't call on true reversal secondly if you have a good meaty option this would also eliminate that], well that's similar to any dp+assist since she would actually have to recover fortune would likely still be faster based on her movement speed but yeah you could just make it more minus (safe jumps that can hit meaty are actually very good against dp+assist in general, I don't play anymore so that's my backseat gaming for ya haha)

You can also avoid [strong option] by air resetting which also happens to be the best method of resetting (air supers are generally more punishable as well barring safe DHCs but grounded supers take advantage of those too and usually it's better)

But either way I'd consider this a trade off picking character to character, they're all supposed to be good or better at different things.

I know I'm in the minority because I also thought the M bang nerf was dumb because it already had an option (jumping over it) you could do to punish it but apparently it wasn't good enough even though it nets you a jump in punish which is astounding and people get hit by a well timed m bang anyway. or you could throw it... but for some reason we want to punish it 3 ways 'cause 2 just wasn't enough :/

[Just felt the need to add I'm not saying anybody is bad or anything, I just often think we're blinded by one view most of the time and don't always look into why we don't like something, etc. Sometimes I think a strong tool can be solvable if you're willing to implement it adding extra solutions every time makes me wonder if there's a limit to how many times this will happen to moves that are already beatable at relative simplicity. On the same coin obv you can work around a nerf and also lab your weakned tool and that's cool! but I also want the reason to remove something to also be very good, and personally, I can't find a view I can agree with yet]

It's honestly an issue I've had with a few changes here and there, it feels like flavor of the day nerfs because they already had a weakness but nobody wanted to do it. I just don't like how things are getting solved by making something weaker when an option that can win already existed.

It's a lot like reinventing public transportation in the US

Edit: I edited this a zillion times at this point to try be as clear as possible so don't worry whoever read a different revision, you're not going crazy lol
 
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RemiKz

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Only commenting on characters I actually play.

Annie:
North Knuckle:
- I don't even run north knuckle as an assist but I feel like the nerf is a little arbitrary? It never felt unfair with how crazy some other assists are flying around.
- L North knuckle losing its + on block kiiiinda sucks but not a huge loss.
- I understand the H North knuckle nerf in concept but the follow-ups from it even when right against the corner feel a touch too strict? Not a huge deal

Pillar of Creation:
All the nerfs are probably justified here

Meteor Strike/Sagan Beam:
All changes seem fine

JHP:
- The jHP hitbox change made some combos into ad jHP kinda iffy at some ranges. Biggest complaint about it tbh.
- Star Power jHP losing stars after first jHP feels like a weird unnecessary change. Doing jMP after the jHP is still really good for almost the same reasons and I'm personally not a fan of having weird exceptions like this

JMP:
Probably hate this change the most. I assume the reason this was changed to disallow the link into jLP/jLK but I never felt like it was problematic in any way and also makes jMP > 6MP not work which also did not feel like a problematic thing to have.

5MP:
This is fine

Dash speed change:
I assume this change was made to not allow you run into H Crescent and also to nerf your ability to convert off pillar from a distance. I heavily don't feel like the H Crescent thing is an issue and the pillar nerf already does it's job enough.

Damage changes:
This is fine

Star Power cHK:
I like the change but confused why the buffer only applies to LP and not any of the other lights.

Re-Entry hitstop change:
Has been throwing off my combos a little bit but can adjust to this over time.
---------------------------------------------

Peacock:
Overall I'm fine with the changes, don't feel particularly strong towards any of the nerfs.

----------------------------------------------

Ms.Fortune:
Fiber Uppercut:
I guess the head-on nerf is fair but headless losing throw invul kinds sucks. Head-on can callout throws with jump into airdodge punish fairly easily but headless doesn't have the same luxury and using uppercut to callout throws was underutilized enough as it is.

jLK:
Eeeeeeeeh I know this was a really good aerial but I hate when visuals don't match hitboxes in instances like this.

Hurtbox changes:
I think this was to normalize jumping hurtboxes across the cast so I'm wondering why robofotune didn't receive the same treatment?
 

Turvon

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i think we should nerf Annie 2lp while we are at it, kinda crazy how theres an anti air normal that fast with a hitbox that disjointed and can be canceled into itself. either make the hitbox smaller/less disjointed or remove the ability to do it twice. also Annies dp assist kinda has a crazy amount of blockstun compared to other dp assists
 

UnsafeonHit

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After playing matches a bit the only changes I dislike about Annie are the j.MP change nerfing her routing (j.LK>j.MP>2LP/5LK doesn’t even work anymore and 6MP stagger is pretty important) and the dash change affecting her neutral. H cut was a big part of it so lacking the proper speed to threaten behind it makes it a completely different tool, And it seems like everyone is on the same page
 

Sinclair

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I think the patch is extremely fair and i'm curious as to what other things will change.
 
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definitely not a alt

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"First they came for the Peacock mains, and I did not speak out-
Because I was not a Peacock main"


"Then they came for the Annie mains, and I did not speak out-

Because I was not a Annie main"


"Then they came for the Miss Fortune mains, and I did not speak out-

Because I was not a Miss Fortune main"



"Then they came for my main - And there was no one left to speak for me"
 

BellaFeng4Eternity

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Just revert the nerfs on L and H Knuckle and j.MP and Pillar knockdown and Annie should be good IMO. We're not nerfing anything anymore from Annie right now.
 
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softie

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"First they came for the Peacock mains, and I did not speak out-
Because I was not a Peacock main"


"Then they came for the Annie mains, and I did not speak out-

Because I was not a Annie main"


"Then they came for the Miss Fortune mains, and I did not speak out-

Because I was not a Miss Fortune main"



"Then they came for my main - And there was no one left to speak for me"
this is such an omega weenie post holy fuck
 

FuLLBLeeD

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The Annie dash and j.mp nerfs feel like overkill, tbh. It seems like her entire kit was brought more in line with the rest of the cast with just damage and pillar changes. Dash nerf just makes her neutral worse and less fun after she's already been normalized. I also don't really think L Knuckle needs to be -3 either; Annie has better strings that leave her more plus that are less vulnerable to pushblock guard cancel. I think most people think Annie was nerfed a bit too much and I imagine some of this will be rolled back.

Forcing confirms off POC to use OTG is entirely fair, I just wish the super had the same oomph as the old one. It seems like the change made the pillar seem less as impactful as before, and even though this is 100% justified as a balance change I just wish it felt better from a game feel/visual perspective.

Double doesn't need to be buffed, and I think people are really downplaying her right now. She's a master of all trades, and both Annie and Double bring strengths to the table that the other one doesn't. I can stress enough how much having characters that are good and anchors and points and mids don't need to also do things better than other characters. Being an all rounder is a strong asset in fighting games, especially in VS ones and characters that are good at everything don't also need to be great at everything. On a high level view of Skullgirls, characters like Double and Annie will continue to be highly rated, and the fact that Double has been nerfed so much over the years and is still top 5 tells you she is probably fine. I'm fine with little QoL for Double but we don't need old catheads back.

It's also important to remember not to compare anyone to Umbrella before she is actually finished; if one thing holds true for SG beta cycles it is that characters often get the more egregious aspects normalized. Liam has stated that this tuning period will last much longer than the last one, and I think we should keep that in mind before the next update hits production with the Umbrella release.

Still an advocate of Fortune head not messing up combos. There are multiple avenues to implement this that I imagine Liam will try down the line. Also fix the rekka meter gain bug which will probably address a lot of complaints about meter gain.

I personally don't feel Peacock nerfs need to be reverted because you can easily justify reverting nerfs to neutral tools for the sake of combo consistency. Learning new routes for your characters after balance patches isn't a new things and I'd imagine you guys will figure it out.

Enjoy your time off HVS, you've earned it. Thank you for supporting the game!
 
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PME

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Annie:
Let the nerfs rock and see how it goes
The jMP nerfs are warranted because the resets stemming from it are ridiculous. I understand it breaks some combos, but if you want jMP hitstun back, I say add forced scaling on jHP. Her getting 2 touch kills from a reset point like that where it's nigh impossible to reversal against an unseeable 50/50 is a little much, yeah?

Robo:
Changes are fine

Peacock:
Let it rock and see how it goes.

M George > L George on hit isn't the problem (which you can still get), it's that sequence on block that's a little much. Rushing in with cHK on block into M George > L George to let her stay on you like glue? At least this lets a few more situations happen where the defendant can pushblock the cHK/L Bomb and PBGC jump over M George more consistently... against the character that shouldn't be good at rushing and staying in in the first place.

Fortune:
Changes are fine, they don't really change the problems people have against her imo. Fiber being jump cancellable on whiff was usually what was complained about. If anything, it needed to be more minus on block to help punish it, making it vulnerable to throws(?) will just give players an incentive to hard call it out with it. Which then Fortune players will adapt by waking up with IAD jHP to get a HCH starter instead (ouch).
jLK nerf also doesn't address the issue players have with it, since they're complaining about how she's very difficult to get off of you. The solution was always to be above Fortune, but if you wanted a direct nerf to it to "fix" the problem, it would be to remove Fortune's capability to airdash cancel it.

But yeah, I'm in the camp of "let's test the changes more"
 

FuLLBLeeD

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"First they came for the Peacock mains, and I did not speak out-
Because I was not a Peacock main"


"Then they came for the Annie mains, and I did not speak out-

Because I was not a Annie main"


"Then they came for the Miss Fortune mains, and I did not speak out-

Because I was not a Miss Fortune main"



"Then they came for my main - And there was no one left to speak for me"
This isn't twitter
 

TyroneOCanada

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I wanna start this off by saying I agree with most of the changes in this update. I also agree that some of the stuff was slightly too harsh such as the Annie dash and jMP nerfs.

Okay my ulterior motive for making this post was to slide this in here. Random beta idea that I suggest we could test to see if it's truly so gamebreaking that we can't have it:

Cerebella grab bag no longer eats the opponent's OTG on whiff.

I think it makes no sense that if a character whiffs a -60 or worse move that puts her on the ground, that I am not allowed to just launcher punish it. Right now, some characters (big band for example) cannot get a HCH punish into a full combo without an assist.

I also think that it doesn't make any sense for consistency that this should eat OTG when other moves where the character visibly bounces off the floor such as Band jHK and Updo don't.

At the very least I think that just adding a pink bounce visual effect wouldnt hurt. It would alleviate the confusion for players who aren't aware of the otg consumption
 
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