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Backer Build Discussion/Secrets/Speedrunning tricks

Lex said:
So, figured that I'd note down the damage values for each character's attacks vs a single enemy:
Thanks, put it in the OP.

Senvy said:
Tomorrow when I will have more time, I will also try and add where you can find each character, so the map will be completed.
Will wait for that then.
 
Woah, nice havick9!

Edit: Also thanks for the maps, Senvy. They're helpful with some stuff I'm trying.
 
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havick9 said:
current PB for 100% 17:18
That some nice time there. I need to start finding some free time and do some runs.

Kasumi said:
Woah, nice havick9!

Edit: Also thanks for the maps, Senvy. They're helpful with some stuff I'm trying.

No problem, I wanted to have some map with all stuff before doing some runs myself, so why not share it ?

And there is final verions of it, with everything ( I hope I ddn't forget anything )
wNtl4oE.png


Also I would like to know how the speedrun contest would be chosen if the best run had some bug/glitch. Like Kasumi said in different thread, he found something, but reported it, something that could make his time impossible to beat ( propably, I don't know what kind of bug it was, so I can only assume ).
In last contest in 2015 there were more rules or info about how to win
https://labzerogames.com/indiv-igg-contests/
this time it only say to send a picture of time. I understand that in order to win with like 0:00:10 time I still need video to show how I did it, but then again what if there is some bug or a glitch ?
We already noticed bugs / glitches with enemies or some walls, that did not speed up the game, but what if someone find one that can in some way speed up the game and use it to get better time ?
 
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I guess I'll post it. I learned that I'm not the first to find what I found and it's already kinda of "out there." I'd be curious if anyone does find any speedrun use of it. I couldn't. So please please share if you find a practical use of this.
Out of bounds:
It works anywhere there's an area that forces a slide. There's only one place where you can get back in bounds that I've found, so all in all it's not too helpful.
Edit: It doesn't work anywhere that forces a slide. So, try the places in the actual videos FIRST, then when you're sure you know how to do it, check other places.
 
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Here's some useful stuff found by the Skullgirls discord and I.

I kind of knew about this arrow spammable warlock because I did blocking practice until death against him but I didn't think about using it to kill him faster until MPGame said it.
Also, I didn't know how to do it consistently until Alex P told me the warlock has to finish you with a staff whack.

frigfridge's idea and an useful spot for it. Not sure what to call this technique.

This one is kind of hard. You can practice this one with the other treant near the bow pickup spot.
 
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The Treent Skip reminds of one run earlier where it didn't pop up and I was all "huh? wait..." and before I actually reacted to the fact it didn't fire, it popped up XD

The arrows vs the boss gives me an idea.
 
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*deleted Url*

If you guys wanna cheer me on and see me attempt to get sub 3m 20s (already clocked in at 3m 23[I think 23, I'll have to look later]s)

edit:
went ahead and closed the stream. Have about an hour or 2 logged so you're welcome to back view on my channel but I did end with 3:17.35 and 3:17.15 (but I did a small cheaty thing with this time so I'm not counting it)
 
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feels like dash jumping like this is more consistent for getting the treant out
 
The race is afoot :)
20171120013928_1.jpg

RNG Gods blessed me with this time.
 
damn it. I knew 15 was possible XD Any tricks you're using or are you running through much as I did?
 
For me biggest problem is last fight. You can get perfectly everything, but at the end, you have to play with RNG and pray for 4 hard hit each for 1295 I think, and then one staff hit. When usually you get 6 staff hit in a row, and then some other combo.

If you could get that godly luck, I think a lot lower time would be possible.
 
I'm mostly asking as there's a "restart" trick to remove certain obstacles. While my other time was a tad faster, I'm not counting it as I did the "trick".
 
Kit Ballard said:
I'm mostly asking as there's a "restart" trick to remove certain obstacles. While my other time was a tad faster, I'm not counting it as I did the "trick".

Are talking about last boss, or something else ? Because now I'm little confused if there is something new or not.
 
@Aden I rechecked my the damage values on Razmi's level 3 up close (after doing her down attack). The actual damage value is 10180.
I think you also forgot to include Ajna's bare-handed attacks in the OP.

Think I must have gotten the original Razmi damage vs an enemy that got killed partway through the attack, hence the lower damage, oops.
 
Kit Ballard said:
damn it. I knew 15 was possible XD Any tricks you're using or are you running through much as I did?
I intentionally take damage from certain monsters before I get to the last boss.
 
Lex said:
@Aden I rechecked my the damage values on Razmi's level 3 up close (after doing her down attack). The actual damage value is 10180.
I think you also forgot to include Ajna's bare-handed attacks in the OP.

Think I must have gotten the original Razmi damage vs an enemy that got killed partway through the attack, hence the lower damage, oops.
Fixed, thanks.

Do you have numbers on counter or explosive arrows by the way? Might have some use since you can start combos with them.
 
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Counter deals 900 damage to each enemy it hits. Normal arrows do 450 damage by default and when you are approaching the health threshold I think they will do (to the rounded to the nearest multiple of 5) whatever health they have above that threshold. For example, if an opponent has 2225/4000 health the final arrow will do 225 damage rather than 450. That's my best guess anyway. The explosive arrows deal 1100 and you can stack multiple arrows on one enemy of course (not sure how many). The explosions also have the same end scaling as the normal arrows do for their threshold.

If you start a battle with the explosive arrow, then the explosion can still hit any other enemies btw (since the enemies emerge from within the main one, you will hit every single enemy with the explosion as well). The other enemies will still take the damage even if the point enemy has hit the health threshold where explosions don't deal damage.

People may already know this, but you can level all of your characters up from having 1 turn each to 3 turns in one battle so long as it is vs a high enough "level" opponent. This would probably be useful for Clearest if people aren't already using it (sorry if this is already known).
 
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Lex said:
(sorry if this is already known).
Thanks for the numbers, will get those in soon. I think the explosive arrows also allow you to do more damage than regular arrows before a fight and that you get up to 6 at a time. As to knowing about the level thing, I think anyone who got Razmi probably noticed that but I'll put it in the more general information stuff anyway since it's possible for people to not notice.
 
Did the game reset glitch kit mentioned get patched? I haven't used it yet so I kinda don't want to use updated builds unless it's required for entry in the contest or it speeds something up.
 

With the first jump i was testing to see if a big jump or a small jump made a difference. It doesn't seem too. Havik9 had a starting jump that used a wall jump but i can't do it reliably.

the second clip cuts out one wall jump so its faster.

the third clip also cuts out a wall jump making it faster.

These aren't really ground breaking but they are some things that i'm using that add up. more to come.
 
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Okay, finally got around to play the preview. Good but I have a couple of concerns:

- While in the first version of the prototype it was hard to know when it was your turn and when it was the enemy's, here you don't really know when the enemy turn ends. I've had characters blocking after getting up from an enemy attack after it was finished. Coupled with the little time you have for thinking while waiting for your (ATB) dots to fill up, this led me to skipping turns where I had everyone at full dots because they where too busy guarding an attack that wasn't coming in in the first place, which led me to release the button, only to be attacked again with no guard. I don't like it.

- Why do enemies stop in place when their turn is over and you start yours? I've had some in the center of the party. Not a big issues but it kinda irks me. Is this intended? Are they also intended to not respawn?

- How do I switch weapons to use in battle? Past the axe part I'm stuck with that. Wasn't there a way to change weapons in the proto? Why can't I do it now? Is it being worked on?

- Linked to the previous issue: now that there is nothing at the moment to interact with the bow except enemies, it feels useless. Pitiful damage and honestly not fun. If I wanted to do peanut damage to a standard enemy from afar I could have just booted up Borderlands 2. This matters little since it might change in the future and all that but can I use it in combat or not? It would make more sense.

- Individual blocks are useful only when fighting small enemies and against grabs. As soon as you get to the large ones you might as well go full-guard. Why? Because even if the target says only Razmi is gonna get hit you press her guard aaaaaaand Dhar and Ginseng get hit too because it was a AoE attack and you didn't see it.

- Swapping targets for the next attack is... hard? Is it just me? Everytime I try I get attacked, and you can't switch targets neither when you attack or get attacked. Good luck with fast enemies that give you little time between turns! And don't forget the guard thin I mentioned before.


Now I know this all looks like a bunch of angry remarks, but I also perfectly know that this preview is a WIP and most of this stuff will get tweaks and get better, but I still wanted to put my 2 cents out there.

Other than that, everything was pretty fucking fun I didn't find Tungar but I don't care I can replay it I can't wait for more characters to be added like Toko and Thorani and Narssus and Zahra and Lashi and Kampan and MF Naga Rider basically what I'm saying is that the future looks bright.
 
ArgonBern said:
- Why do enemies stop in place when their turn is over and you start yours? I've had some in the center of the party. Not a big issues but it kinda irks me. Is this intended? Are they also intended to not respawn?
The enemies stopping on their way back to their original spots allows you to get group attacks where you might not normally be able to (e.g. you have 2 enemies that are spread far apart, the back one comes up to attack you and then as it is walking back you do Ajna's neutral attack to hit both enemies at once). I think it's neat.

- Individual blocks are useful only when fighting small enemies and against grabs. As soon as you get to the large ones you might as well go full-guard. Why? Because even if the target says only Razmi is gonna get hit you press her guard aaaaaaand Dhar and Ginseng get hit too because it was a AoE attack and you didn't see it.
I definitely disagree with you here. Apart from the Belu and two of the bosses, none of the other enemies will hit characters that aren't targeted. Vs the Belu you just need to see it happen the first time then remember to all guard and vs the two bosses the attacks in question have a long and obvious start-up. Given that all-guarding when you don't need to wastes Iddhi and makes it harder to parry, I think saying it becomes useless later on is far from the truth.

You can't switch weapons in in battle as far as I know in the current build. Regarding the bow, you may have already found this out but you can get the enemies to explode (shoot with normal arrow, then hold R1 and press attack). This explosion deals 1100 damage and if you start a battle with it will hit every single enemy that immediately spawns. You can also use the explosions to get the enemy down to really low health which, even if it is a bit dull, gives people another way of getting past an enemy they're stuck against.
 
I uhhh... never knew about the explosion.
 
If you want some neat/helpful tips on playing the preview, the speedrun thread has a lot of cool stuff. I'd try and do all the secrets first though to avoid spoilers.

Edit: Man, I need to go to sleep earlier -_- got confused and thought this was the other big thread *facepalm*
 
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Lex said:
If you want some neat/helpful tips on playing the preview, the speedrun thread has a lot of cool stuff. I'd try and do all the secrets first though to avoid spoilers.
Wait this isn't the speed running thread?
 
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ArgonBern said:
it was hard to know when it was your turn and when it was the enemy's, here you don't really know when the enemy turn ends. I've had characters blocking after getting up from an enemy attack after it was finished. Coupled with the little time you have for thinking while waiting for your (ATB) dots to fill up, this led me to skipping turns where I had everyone at full dots because they where too busy guarding an attack that wasn't coming in in the first place, which led me to release the button, only to be attacked again with no guard.
I'm actually really confused by this as I haven't had that happen, might need to play more and see what I'm seeing that I guess you're not.

ArgonBern said:
Why do enemies stop in place when their turn is over and you start yours?
Because of how position based the combat is, which I really enjoy, physical position actually effecting the battle is neat.

ArgonBern said:
How do I switch weapons to use in battle
Either due to reaction to the prototype or internal testing it was decided that the weapon switch freeze wasn't as good as having different buttons for different things and so we don't currently have a weapon switch. Expect one in the future.

ArgonBern said:
now that there is nothing at the moment to interact with the bow except enemies, it feels useless.
Read the OP.

ArgonBern said:
Individual blocks are useful only when fighting small enemies and against grabs. As soon as you get to the large ones you might as well go full-guard. Why? Because even if the target says only Razmi is gonna get hit you press her guard aaaaaaand Dhar and Ginseng get hit too because it was a AoE attack and you didn't see it.
This isn't that true, but it does happen yeah, you need to learn enemy attacks basically and make correct calls, I don't see the problem. Again, this is position effecting the combat more than anything, remember you can use positioning against them as well.

ArgonBern said:
Swapping targets for the next attack is... hard? Is it just me?
It might be, I didn't have an issue, but maybe I had better luck? Can't say. Played through a few times now.

In general though, do read the OP, you'll probably find some stuff in there you'll want to play around with if you try the build again.

Lex said:
Apart from the Belu and two of the bosses, none of the other enemies will hit characters that aren't targeted
This isn't true, even if we ignore bizarre positioning resulting in attacks now hitting unmarked party members the golem also has a string that if used against the front party member will hit the back member despite them not being marked.
 
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Aden said:
This isn't true, even if we ignore bizarre positioning resulting in attacks now hitting unmarked party members the golem also has a string that if used against the front party member will hit the back member despite them not being marked.
That string is really inconsistent and I've learned to play it by eye on how far away the golem is.

On the other hand, if it targets the BACK party member, the second punch will always hit the front party member. Not the third, the second, because of the side it punches with.
 
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HiroProtagonest said:
That string is really inconsistent and I've learned to play it by eye on how far away the golem is.
It's usually played out for me the way I described but once or twice not hit the back member.

But yeah, watching carefully really is the most practical way to deal with any of the position based stuff, which again, I personally enjoy.
 
Peter has already mentioned that they already plan to mark all characters that's get hit with a sweeping attack, btw.
 
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@J-Boogie said:
Peter has already mentioned that they already plan to mark all characters that's get hit with a sweeping attack
I wonder how hard that is to change.
 
Senvy said:
How, when, what ?
That's some crazy time. How you did it this fast ?

a solid route and a tiny glitch :^)
 
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