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Big Band Tech Thread: Small/Big Tips & Strategy YOU Notice?

So, I'm just gonna write this down even though nobody will agree with me...

I think I prefer M Beat assist over L Beat.

I play Cerebella, so some of this is Cerebella-based, but here are my reasons:
+ Provides the Dynamo -> OTG F+HP + assist pickup on Squigly/Fortune/Robo, which L Beat doesn't. (It canNOT work in Squigly, and only like 5% works on Fortune/Robo.) This is the biggest deal to me, because it lets you convert for 1 bar.
+ Makes instant Battle Butt + assist completely safe on block. If they crouch-block the M Beat you are +5, if they stand block it you are like +30ish. (L Beat is -6 in the same situation, so M provides 11f more blockstun.)
+ M Beat hits behind Big Band on the first hit. It is actually a better assist to get out of crossup pressure.
+ M Beat is completely strike invincible up till the active frames, L Beat is vulnerable for the first two frames. In my testing so far, M Beat is a better get-off-me call for most pressure, both because of where it hits and that it is not extra vulnerable, and it's also a real Alpha Counter that won't lose to hits.
+ M Beat is active for longer on each hit, so you tend to beat more things in more situations.
+ Does more damage, holds the opponent for longer, has longer blockstun.
+ Allows conversions from trades that L Beat would not, because it takes longer and holds them in place longer.
+ You get the single-hit trade where the opponent goes flying away far less often because it has 3 active frames and is invincible for all of them.
+ Since it has longer hitstop and blockstun, it's a better lockdown assist than L Beat, particularly vs airborne people.

- M Beat is 2f slower. This can actually be used as a plus, since it gives great stagger pressure, but I'll list it as a minus.
- Doesn't have the vertical range of L Beat. I don't hit people jumping around with L Beat all that much in situations where I have had M Beat fail, so this isn't a very big deal to me.

[edit]
Also, Cerebella + M Beat have a 3-bar 100% in 2v3 off c.LK, that doesn't work with L Beat. :^P
 
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Hmm... Since I saw the Japanese play I noted they were (or at least one of them) was using M BE. So even though I've tried the assist before, I decided to try it again against some of our local up and comers.

It's, interesting.

It's speed and invincibility is kind of a misnomer. It isn't invincible in its actual AA frames. Whereas L BE is.
In practice this doesn't seem to mean THAT much as it still AA decently against things like IAD. But against jumpins it kinda loses some appeal.

M BE according to frame data is MUCH slower as an AA:

It is only 2 frames slower on paper, but those frames aren't AA frames (well the behind frame is an anti crossup frame, so against crossups it is actually faster than L BE) but against traditional jump attacks it is a whopping 11 frames slower than L BE ( may be one or 2 frames plus or minus depending on how one reads the frame data)

L BE is listed as 1(6)1 and hitting on the 9th frame ( this frame is an invincible AA frame) then goes through 6 frames of inactivity and hits again for a second time directly after that.

M BE is listed as hitting on the eleventh frame, having a further 2 frames, then going through a 6 frame inactivity period and followed by another 3 frames of activity.
Those last 3 frames are the AA frames and they hit, according to the wiki frame data on frame 20-22

Compared to L BE 9 frame startup, M BE as an AA is over 10 frames slower.


So to me the conclusion is kinda obvious:


If you want a more all around assist, M BE is the way to go, it has all the pluses and benefits that mike spoke of, while ALSO having more horizontal range to boot.

For me however since I use PW and actually get a lot of people pressing buttons in the air and REALLY NEED that awesome BE L first frame AA abilities, I'm sticking with It. Also, some other very minor things to consider:

M BE recovers slower than L BE making it slightly easier to punish and happy birthday.

Since it AAs slower than L BE you are more open to mixups from the air when calling it, than if you had called L BE With the same timing.

Lockdown is many times (sometimes actually) a detriment since it gives people the ability to use autoguard/pbgc easier (especially against assist since pushblocking assists doesn't push the point away, pending up the point to pbgc reversals

A a pw player I'd much rather play against M BE than L BE.

I think both assist have great qualities though and thought should be put into whichever assist you choose.


Imo

*sorry if some of the frames are wrong I got them from the wiki. The hitboxes I'm using come from stuffs hitbox post.
 
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I was messing around in training today and found this.
Did a quick scan of the thread and didn't anything very much like this.
Works on most of the cast. The only characters I couldn't get it to work on were Eliza and Band.
For Double I did 2 s.MKs to relaunch so she's high enough in the air.

 
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BTW, is that burst set to bursting on the 0th frame? It seems a bit delayed to me, and it's important to note in burst bait setups when they work, since a lot of the weird burst setups end up only working with certain timings, where they won't work if someone bursts early or sometimes late. You can and should try out the different burst timings with the training mode setting for when the CPU will burst.
 
Yep, I know that. Just looked at my Training Menu and Escape Delay is set to 0.
 
A small note:
Since double snaps do not build any meter for hitting, if you want to make things harder for yourself Big Band is actually able to throw in up to two specials with a very low-damage doublesnap, to build meter. It is possible on everyone if you delay the 2nd s.MK vs heavies.

One special, regular: OTG c.LK->c.MK->s.HP xx H-Train-EBrake, [s.LP->c.MK->s.HP xx H-Train-EBrake]xN. This is his regular doublesnap, there's no reason not to add the EBrake for some meter.
One special, low damage: OTG c.LK->s.MKx2 xx H-Train-EBrake, [s.LP->s.MKx2 xx H-Train-EBrake]xN.
Two specials: [OTG c.LK->s.MKx2 xx H-Train-EBrake, L Beat Extend]xN.

You can build about half a bar for this. Extra difficulty for minor reward!

Worth noting that if you somehow get a midstage doublesnap or point kill, s.LP->s.MKx2 xx H-Train-EBrake, L Beat works midstage.
 
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i would have guessed it was a bug if anyone except mike posted it lmao
 
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Just wondering, does anyone have a good way to counter a Big Band that prefers to super-jump and call an assist to cover the ground(H Drill, L Shot) then come down with j.mk or M Cymbal? I typically have issues touching Big Band as any aggressive jump forward is met with his superior grab range or his disjointed hitbox on his cymbals and I'm not really sure how to proceed. If anyone can enlighten me since I only haven't labbed Band that extensively to know his weaknesses, I'd appreciate any feedback.
 
cherry blossoms said:
Just wondering, does anyone have a good way to counter a Big Band that prefers to super-jump and call an assist to cover the ground(H Drill, L Shot) then come down with j.mk or M Cymbal?

You can't call an assist after a super jump, though. I'm guessing you mean if they single jump, call an assist, and then double jump? Either that, or you mean if they're calling an assist the moment they super jump.

j.mk hits at a very downward angle, and can't be used twice if band already double jumped. You can just easily block it and you should be at an advantage if he hits you at the very top of your hurtbox. M Cymbals is a bit tricky; all you can do is block. If you're close enough and you're not locked down by the assist, it might be worth a shot to jump up and try to countergrab/counterhit band out of his cymbals.

cherry blossoms said:
I typically have issues touching Big Band as any aggressive jump forward is met with his superior grab range or his disjointed hitbox on his cymbals and I'm not really sure how to proceed.

If you're getting hit by A-train, then don't jump, and go for an aggressive run-in. He'll expect a low if you do that, and he'll probably try to either grab you or DP. If he isn't doing anything, you should jump and try to go for an instant overhead, since he won't expect you to jump. You can also try to either jump early or jump above his grab area. Doing an early super jump into another double jump can buy you time to come down on him without giving him any way to protect himself. This is also an excellent opportunity to bait out MK A-Train, as it can either whiff or be blocked completely, giving you the opportunity to punish.

If you're getting hit by cymbals, just block it and keep going. Don't even pushblock, as that'll put him back in his defensive comfort zone.

If you've got any command grabs (I see you run Fukua and Bella so this shouldn't be a problem), you can throw them around at will for the most part. MGR and Fukua's heavy grab are extremely effective since band's hurtbox is too big to avoid any of them at a reasonable distance.
 
2+assist~8 gives you a super jump and an assist at the same time. [insert cynical jab at SGC for not knowing it here]

Squigly should be able to super jump double jump over Big Band and he has trouble dealing with characters who are above him.
 
Yomabuddy said:
2+assist~8 gives you a super jump and an assist at the same time. [insert cynical jab at SGC for not knowing it here]

What makes you think the sgc as a whole dossnt know this? Its one of the most obvious things ever :)
 
Pretty sure everyone has been doing that for a while? Or at least I know I did as soon as the Double Jump change to assists came out
 
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So back to the point of the thread...

I keep forgetting to mention you can hold down P and do A-Train (or hold K and then do Brass) to get an instant E-Brake.
So for the c.HP -> instant HK Train Brake I mentioned above, you can actually just hold HP when you do the HK Train and it all happens for you as fast as possible.
 
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Ooh. I remember to do this sometimes.
 
Not sure if it's universal (only tested against BB), but you can do a pretty insulting burst bait with either c.mp, c.hp, or both after c.hp. It only works with sound stun.

c.mp x2 doesn't work, only c.mp x1. c.hp can be used after c.mp if you don't think they're going to burst and want them to.

You need to be as close as possible before the first c.hp, so I'd recommend using c.mk before the first c.hp and only doing one or two hits with your light attacks.
 
I think I've figured out the fastest way to move Big Band across the screen. It is microdash ~ smk kara canceled into a max distance HK E-Brake. It moves you roughly 3/4 of the screen forward in around 45 to 46 frames.

It's faster than dashing forward the same distance by several frames (I want to say it feels like 7 or 8 frames?), it puts you within throw range of most characters, it lets you build a charge, and it builds meter. It seems to be the best way to close the distance after any of Big Band's sliding knockdowns.

It actually moves far enough and fast enough that you can do a bunch of LK A-Trains in a row, just to give you guys an idea.
 
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I think the burst bait limit is 90f. This is a bit of a joke, but there are some really interesting things you can do with green vial when it comes to burst baits, because it lets you position yourself so precisely.
 

You can cross people up on ground techs with HK - E brake. Even better, you can do an autocorrecting HK E-Brake cross up (sometimes).

In the video I'm doing microdash s.mk xx HK E-Brake as soon as Eliza techs. Generally, it's much easier to perform if they tech backwards. If your opponent techs forward, even though it may be possible to get the autocorrect HK E-Brake cross up, how easy or difficult it is is very much character dependent.

The microdash may not be necessary, but I think it's slightly easier to pull off using it rather than not using it.

I did some quick testing and here's who it works on:

Eliza
Beowulf
Valentine
Painwheel
Squigly
Peacock

Parasoul backwards tech only
Fukua backwards tech only
Cerebella backwards tech only
Double backwards tech only

does not work on Robo Fortune
does not work on Big Band
does not work on Fortune
 
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I found a way to convert off full screen H Giant Step. Just call your Peacock L Bomb assist just before you do it. The bomb will hit OTG. That gives you enough time to emergency brake up and do c.LK s.MK into whatever.

Don't have L Bomb assist? lmfao why are you even alive
 
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mcpeanuts said:
I found a way to convert off full screen H Giant Step. Just call your Peacock L Bomb assist just before you do it. The bomb will hit OTG. That gives you enough time to emergency brake up and do c.LK s.MK into whatever.

Don't have L Bomb assist? lmfao why are you even alive

if you happen to be some loser without l bomb assist but you have cilia slide/bypass those work too, h step call assist m brass will get you full combo. maybe other assists work too? but gllt found it with bypass and I tested it with clide so i know those work
 
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Universal, easy, distance-optimized doublesnap setup:
Yes, you can go much farther with j.MKx2, but that is not universal nor easy. It tends to drop heavy+light pairs, and requires stricter timing anyway.

Not sure if Combo or Tech. :^P
 
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awww I was literally in the middle of making this exact same video :'(

But yeah, PSA to everyone we should probably make more use out of full shake BE + e brake for side switches to keep corner (and works surprisingly far form the corner too, as shown there), happy birthday or no.
 
fenster said:
Does it actually leave you plus if you use it to chase ground tech?

Unfortunately, no. It seems to be pretty negative.

I'm testing it now, and on backwards tech there are characters and timings where it's safe from mashed jabs and things like that, but for the most part on crossing up the training dummy after a forward tech I get counterhit out of E-Brake.
 
You can do raw MK "A" Train off OTG against Band if you haven't used OTG yet and if you're at max undizzy. You can also do kara s.mk, HK "A" Train for a sideswitch after Beat Extend using OTG. This only seems to work if the first hit of Beat Extend whiffs. This means LP Beat Extend won't work, and that you have to do this at a medium range so that the first hit of MP/HP Beat Extend whiffs but all the other hits land.

Of course, you can just do c.mk or something similar and then go into "A" Train, but the kara s.mk means you can side switch without starting a new chain and without triggering undizzy. You can use E-brake to side switch too, but by doing that you won't have a charge ready to immediately go into MK "A" Train.

If you're having trouble with this, you need to have "A" Train's active frames pop out after Band bounces. This is substantially easier with MK "A" Train because it has tracking, but, fortunately, the timing is just right after a kara s.mk that you can do HK "A" Train consistently. In most other cases, though, you'll want to use MK "A" Train.
 
BIG NEWS FOR SCRUBS

  1. You're bad.
  2. You can get Tympany on the first possible (airborne) frame at the start of a match by doing the magical TK motion:
JaAIMv8.png


Tympany is not safe against a few characters, but against others, you can throw it out at the start of a match. It will be essentially the same as a jump-in, except it starts much more quickly and can deal some pretty good damage if it hits. The damage it can deal is greatly amplified if you manage to hit an assist, and if you do, you can do some extra moves on them when you land while the point character is still waking up.

This is a great move to throw out for no reason.
 
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Yes. I am ready.
 
mcpeanuts said:
Pegglefrank I am incredibly disappointed that you did not start of round Timpani when I ran into you on quick match

I messed it up so many times that I decided to stop trying.

I'll redeem myself with a timpani on round start compilation.

EDIT: I've played about 10 or 15 matches so far. I plan to start editing this soon in the hopes that the holy jazz order will accept my apology.
 
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Mike_Z said:
You can't, actually. You can get it on the 5th frame, because you have to jump first. :^P

I meant first possible frame as in the first frame you could realistically do it in a match. Should have worded that better, my bad.
 
So is it even bigger news for scrubs that you can realistically do SSJ at match start and get it on the third frame or so?
Finally, a way to beat everyone rude enough to move forward, sweep or doing an overhead at match start instead of neutral jumping or backing up like 99% of other players, godlike
 
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