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Black Dahlia Alpha/Beta Gameplay Discussion Thread

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Hmm, if I recall correctly, since Dahlia's lv. 3 super is an install that calls forth her bunny minions to fight alongside her, they have their own animations and that's the thing that took the longest. That explains why we are left in the dark and haven't got the next Alpha update for two and a half months. I think Hidden Variable and Future Club are gonna need a lot more developers to speed things up.
 
the_rpg_king said:
Hmm, if I recall correctly, since Dahlia's lv. 3 super is an install that calls forth her bunny minions to fight alongside her, they have their own animations and that's the thing that took the longest. That explains why we are left in the dark and haven't got the next Alpha update for two and a half months. I think Hidden Variable and Future Club are gonna need a lot more developers to speed things up.
Far as I know, all we have seen of the bunny girl super is the frames with Dahlia moving alongside them. We don't know what level it is and we don't know how it's gonna work. You may be right, but currently how the move is going to work is just completely up to speculation. We certainly don't know if that is the reason for such a long gap from the latest update.
 
Chrono_Tata said:
Far as I know, all we have seen of the bunny girl super is the frames with Dahlia moving alongside them. We don't know what level it is and we don't know how it's gonna work. You may be right, but currently how the move is going to work is just completely up to speculation. We certainly don't know if that is the reason for such a long gap from the latest update.
It has to be when I am so eager to find out what changes are they gonna plan when Dahlia enters Beta and to find out what will happen to the character select grid and Marie's boss version once her playable self enters Alpha. These are the answers I seek. Besides, we're nearing the end of 2022 and we still haven't gotten a new update.
 
Hey all,

Long time no speak! (I'm really sorry about that, although sorry doesn't cut it and we'll be redoubling our efforts to get back into the swing of things in the new year as stated in the latest announcement)

I've read through all of the feedback here (did awhile ago) and combined it into a list with my own notes, then did a balance pass for Black Dahlia around that final list. A good amount of feedback from here should be addressed (new sLP with art tweaks to hit way lower for example), but there will also be changes unrelated to what's discussed here based on other buffs (LP > LK chains, linking cMP after Empower, blocking after Onslaught flip, etc) / nerfs she's receiving, in addition to her three new moves.

The next version of Black Dahlia won't be fully locked in so there will be a bit of time for tuning and bug fixing in the new year after HVS is open again (we are closed over the holidays). Please do leave your feedback here when the next build releases, but I urge of you to play with the build for a bit before dropping knee jerk reactions (new reworked Fire and Ice shot particularly), and I'll get to all of it after the holidays! If you leave feedback in Discord, I won't be able to scroll back to it after we're back from the break, so it will most certainly be missed. Thank you everyone, and happy Holidays! =)
 
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Liam said:
Hey all,

Long time no speak! (I'm really sorry about that, although sorry doesn't cut it and we'll be redoubling our efforts to get back into the swing of things in the new year as stated in the latest announcement)

I've read through all of the feedback here (did awhile ago) and combined it into a list with my own notes, then did a balance pass for Black Dahlia around that final list. A good amount of feedback from here should be addressed (new sLP with art tweaks to hit way lower for example), but there will also be changes unrelated to what's discussed here based on other buffs (LP > LK chains, linking cMP after Empower, blocking after Onslaught flip, etc) / nerfs she's receiving, in addition to her three new moves.

The next version of Black Dahlia won't be fully locked in so there will be a bit of time for tuning and bug fixing in the new year after HVS is open again (we are closed over the holidays). Please do leave your feedback here when the next build releases, but I urge of you to play with the build for a bit before dropping knee jerk reactions (new reworked Fire and Ice shot particularly), and I'll get to all of it after the holidays! If you leave feedback in Discord, I won't be able to scroll back to it after we're back from the break, so it will most certainly be missed. Thank you everyone, and happy Holidays! =)
You guys are silent for four months since the latest Alpha update, but I'm glad you guys are finally telling us what's going on. I look forward to seeing you again after the holidays and I'll be finding out if Black Dahlia gets her Nine the Phantom palette or not on her full release. If not, it's fine with me.
 
New Update so I'm crawling out of the MMO cave to shout at some clouds. I will be mainly focusing on my incisal thoughts so keep in mind they may change as I get more experience with the character and of course they are my opinions so if you don't like them make your own blah blah blah lets get started.

Lets begin with the general stuff.
Overall I'm very happy with how Dahlia feels to control now. Before she felt very sluggish making it difficult to avoid large hitboxes and move into position for her attacks to be effective. Now her movement feels clean and precise allowing her to get where she needs to go in order to control space.
When it comes to her assist pool however I'm a bit disappointed. By comparison to the average character her assists are not that bad but not very impactful on the current assist meta. This is less of a Dahlia problem and more of a problem with the current assist pool so Ill just leave it at that for now.
For Dahlia's neutral I will have to pass on an in depth discussion. I haven't had the chance to really dive into each match up and see how things shape out but from basic testing and strategies she has a very solid space control oriented style that allows her to both zone out and rush down her opponents. Ending thought is its good but I don't know how good.
Ill go more in depth into strings and combos later but I want to say I like her current gatling of light to light medium heavy. Her medium and heavy buttons are pretty slow so having a light light chain really boosts her pressure up close.
Now lets talk about her damage output. On one hand its kind of on the low side but when you commit meter before the reset you can boost her damage to comparable levels to some of the high damage characters. It definitely needs more testing but I like the different style of pre-reset meter use over the common cash out for big damage.

That's all I got for the common Dahlia stuff now lets talk about her more unique characteristics.
Following up on my last point about damage I really like the idea of thinking ahead in meter usage but it comes with some problems. The most obvious one is having the meter to spend in the first place. Its going to be hard to balance her meter gain with how important it is to use her supers without making her too strong as a battery or too weak without any meter at all. I cant say if her current meter reliance to how fast she builds bar is good or bad yet but its something to keep track of.
Special moves are our next topic, I think they are great. Empower is a cool mechanic giving new and interesting damage options and reset points, Teleport is very strong for mix ups and fast enough for tricky neutral stuff, and Shots are all powerful in different ways with each one having its own best use case. The only thing I don't like is the randomness of reload but it was mostly because of old fire shot messing with combos and zoning than anything else. Now there is only a 1 in six chance your zoning will be messed up by a special shot so using M and H reload feels more rewarding than punishing when used well. (crazy Idea just hit me. what if you added a way to eject shots faster than shooting them so you could skip ammo you don't want or burn though the clip faster in order to get to a special bullet. Idk make it so when you fire a shot you can press a button to eject the next shot without changing the recovery of the shot.)
Back to real thoughts lets talk about Onslaught. I like it, its fast enough to catch them sleeping on defense and the change to let you block after it take away the big sign on you head that says "antiair reversal right now for big damage".
Oh yeah she has a counter now too. Its nice she has a reversal of some kind but I don't know how I feel about this being her only option. It is her only reversal right? Also the almost guaranteed counter hit is pretty strong. Maybe too strong but I need to use it more before I can really tell.

Its super time why does she have so many I'm not complaining its just now I have to keep talking forever.
I said this before but I say it again I like the way you have to follow up after her supers and cant just burn meter for damage. Its a twist on meter use that we haven't seen much of in this game and I hope she keeps this design in the final build.
For our first super we have Stage Hazard Dahlia's closest thing to a damage level 1. This super is very interesting, its use outside of combos is pretty niche and it requires a fair amount of undizzy to work with but the reward is powerful. A very good super all things considered,
Next up is Parting Gift. I don't like this super right now. It feels too expensive when her other meter options are just way stronger. The problem is its not a bad super at all. If it gets too strong then it will just out shine her other meter options so I really don't know what to do with it.
I think Another Round should be moved back to kicks to be consistent with Last Call. Last Call is a very powerful super and the main reason why I think Dahlia is so meter dependent. Don't think there is much else to say.
Finally we come to Girl's Night. This is probably the best level 3 in the game right now. 3 bar 1 reset kill set ups are not uncommon but for the cost of potentially losing 3 bars if the reset fails the strength of some of the best resets in the game is worth it. I think this point is perfectly fine to keep as is and should be the power level that a 3 bar sink is at when you have to super before the reset. The only thing I think needs more testing and possibly changes is how the super can be used at neutral. Right know there is no reason not use just Girl's Night any chance you get. The girls stay around for way to long and only attack if you meet their line of sight so retreating to the air is not very effective. Its a very hectic super so I cant pin down what exactly needs to be changed. I hope it can maintain its presence as a reset super while not being so neutral dominant.


That is pretty much everything I can think of about Dahlia in the current build. Thanks for sitting though this rant if you want more details about something here just ask. I probably wont check on this thread for awhile but ask anyway. Ill at least come back next update.
 
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I think you knocked this character out of the park in this version of the game. Only a few notes I have:

Empowered Assault J.LK into J.(HP) Does not work sometimes on characters crouching.

I would like to see the second hit of Empowered do like 100-200 damage or so. It doesn't have to kill either so that you get that satisfying ending if you end the combo with empowered.

I'd like to see St.LK Become a standing low because my setup brain has SOOOO many cool setup ideas that would work if she had a single quick hitting low, and since most of her lows have low damage, I don't think it'd be too bad if she had this one to make up for Cr.LK and Cr.MK.

When the opponent is at Max Undizzy, if you start a a brand new chain with an Ice bullet, it automatically puts them at combo stage 5 instead of 3 which means you only get one chain at max undizzy. Might be a bug.

Parting Gift I think might need a slight rework as it's not necessarily a BAD super at all, it's just can't be justified over EX Reload or Level 3. I'd love to see it be reworked where it does less damage but for One bar I throw it onto you, and then I can detonate it for free later. This would "technically" enable 1 bar Dhcs, but I don't think in her case since she's using the meter preemptively that it's necessarily a bad thing. It could be a unique feature about that super. And it sets it apart from day 1 Annie install because in Annie's case, she didn't use a bar at all for free dhcs hahaha. I just think as it is right now it's too expensive for OK reward whereas hit confirm into EX reload gives her the world and her win condition.

Would potentially like to see an alternative version of Barrel where it's already on fire so when you kick it it just instantly explodes when it makes contact with someone. Gives people the "cashout" super they want.

I think Railgun is her weakest bullet and I'd love to see it wallbounce the opponent similar to Shotgun so that you could do snipe shots into barrel conversions. I personally think they would look so sick. I think I have 0 incentive to use this bullet except when the opponent is fullscreen and at 2%.

Other than that, I think what's super unique about this character is that she follows a completely different rule when it comes to using meter. Every character wants to cashout near the end of the super into DHC DHC where she wants to use the meter as EARLY as possible to smoke your lifebar later. Its VERY unique and what's making the character so fun and expressive to me. I legit haven't had this much fun with any character in Skullgirls in the years I've been playing this game.

20/10 Liam you've truly outdone yourself on her.
 
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+1 I think Parting Gift should either be a bit weaker and only cost 1 bar (with free detonation) or be just as strong but cost 2 bars up front (also with free detonation). Also, I'm a big fan of the idea of an alternative version of Barrel as a cashout super.

Edit: Worth noting that I don't think a cashout super is 100% necessary, I actually love how front loaded her meter use is, but it might still be nice to have in some situations even if it's not a particularly strong cashout.

Admittedly, I'm not the most knowledgeable player, so this idea could be super cap, but maybe the M and H versions of Railgun could bounce off the ceiling at different angles? The current M and H angles feel really awkward at the moment, especially if they pop up when using Order's Up assist. It'd also be cool to see this ammo type gain some kind of new effect so it's more useful in general, like what SonicFox mentioned above - I feel like this all sounds pretty strong, so maybe the duration or size of the laser's hitbox could be altered to compensate for that? Another idea is that Railgun ammo could be locked to the L version when used during M or H Order's Up assist. Either way, I'm loving the character atm and just thought I'd give my 2 cents. Looking forward to hearing everyone else's opinions and ideas! :D
 
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edited. If devs look back, summed it up better.
DP counter puts a unique spin on dahlia, baiken-parry style. opens her up to throws a ton too & recovery is murder as a flipside...recovery could be toned down with how harsh wrong guesses are, but I love it. Also dig the set-play nature of Dahlia's more neutral-focused gameplay. I think she's looking hella solid if these things are examined. Im ok with working harder as a living swiss army knife at the cost of damage/scaling. I just see her more as a flexible mercenary.

1. Negative on-hit for tag-in: I understand being negative on block, but on clean confirm, you fire, land, and...you get hit by a light, unable to block. Unless im missing something this is kinda weird. Confirmed tags are rewarded be it Skullgirls or any tag game. Not sure what's up there. You're safe if you judge distance carefully but shot arc is low & startup a touch slow. Higher might help.

2. Special Ammo still primarily locked behind meter: Locking ammo behind odd reloads or super feels like cutting off the main part of the mechanic. Bullets already go away despite needing reload. A fast startup/recovery reload stance (like 22+pp) at 30f a bullet seems fair. Press back + corresponding button for option to back-load; frontloads by default. Reloading more than 1 or 2 at a time would be tough. Squigly, Beo & Robo w/charges/hype/drones do a lot without meter. Effectively, we have 1 ammo type. Not planning a playstyle depending on the opponent/situation is a letdown when the special ammo's been so fun. Echoed posts for all random H-reload would be cool. 1/3 a meter, small pause on metergain. Just-frame version's random w/chance for repeats. M-reload half random, half normal; just-frame version frontloads special ammo. Fits her wildcard theming. My main question mark when I play wit her.

3. Using up 1 Bullet on-hit only, Onslaught cancel from any normal: Bullet jumps faster using ammo. As a resource. Hotter Blue flame & dropped shell for effect/player-information. Mentioned quite a bit earlier & honestly onslaught feels really good. The effects sell it well. Pushes you to think how it fits in interesting contexts. I only dont like how certain things are segmented and stiff. We have imo THE coolest movement option in game but cant work it in a fluid way for ground or air combos like charge, hype, drones or any special cancel. Like robos drone followups, this is more flexible, but also lets the player decide if they want more flexibility in exchange for resources & bullet damage. People might even find reason to eject ammo on purpose. I always liked squigly, robo, beo, etc being able to use resources a couple different ways...I think this is solid middle ground keeping play engaging. Just as well please allow us to pick strength of onslaught used w/kk button combination.

Thanks for all the hard work. The taunt alone is too sick -- Happy Holidays Everyone
sidenote: CPU at least on nightmare in training mode actively avoids parry. Hopefully that changes to normal for some practice. And live frame advantage on bullets down the line would be nice.

4. Parting Gift at 1 meter for lower damage *or* refund 1 bar after successful detonation: Pretty cut & dried. lvl2 supers has always been cumbersome territory in SG mostly as DHC fodder. Wouldnt mind as it is now, but instead just refund 1 bar on success. On block meter is lost, but decently positive as it is 2 whole bars & most lvl2s are advantageous. Otherwise doesnt feel good using.

5. Not important, but on my mind. Shot feint: The empty click in the trailer was a fun moment. Either hold P or hit K right after to let out a little smoke plume instead. And for the railgun richochet idea mentioned, having the richochet trail telegraph on startup like a laser heating up as visual info for player & opponent make sense to me. Great idea.
 
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I think her Parry should either be fully invuln to recovery after you make contact with it or it should be like -7 on block.


There is already a lot of counterplay I’ve discovered against it as well as fighting Penpen with it as well, and a lot of the top tiers especially just ignore this move outright.

While I agree the 50/50 is good, I still think she’s taking already a huuuuuge risk in hoping you make contact with a physical attack, and god forbid it’s hard baited (Which I am a believer that parries are meant to be hard baited), she will get literally TOD’d. I’d also like to point out because it’s a counter, if she gets thrown during it, the individual throw hits do not scale, so she omega explodes after getting baited that way too.

For a game with explosive offense and already many ways to make her parry whiff or just straight up TOD her, I find myself dying quite often despite being “right” in the sense that I did a well timed parry but still got hit.

And who knows if there’s gonna be some god who can hit the parry and reaction DP or super it long term too.

I think at the VEEERY minimum there should be SOME sorta safety element if she is correct on activation the counter, whether it’s she’s just in a negative situation and you get a mixup opportunity on her/parry again, or she’s invuln and you can try to setup a left-right on her.

I think in a game with meterless launching DPs and Safe on block DPS, that with the amount of risk she is taking, she could use a bit of buff in this regard. Lotsa cons going on with this move I think.
 
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SonicFox said:
I think you knocked this character out of the park in this version of the game. Only a few notes I have:

Empowered Assault J.LK into J.(HP) Does not work sometimes on characters crouching.

I would like to see the second hit of Empowered do like 100-200 damage or so. It doesn't have to kill either so that you get that satisfying ending if you end the combo with empowered.

I'd like to see St.LK Become a standing low because my setup brain has SOOOO many cool setup ideas that would work if she had a single quick hitting low, and since most of her lows have low damage, I don't think it'd be too bad if she had this one to make up for Cr.LK and Cr.MK.

When the opponent is at Max Undizzy, if you start a a brand new chain with an Ice bullet, it automatically puts them at combo stage 5 instead of 3 which means you only get one chain at max undizzy. Might be a bug.

Parting Gift I think might need a slight rework as it's not necessarily a BAD super at all, it's just can't be justified over EX Reload or Level 3. I'd love to see it be reworked where it does less damage but for One bar I throw it onto you, and then I can detonate it for free later. This would "technically" enable 1 bar Dhcs, but I don't think in her case since she's using the meter preemptively that it's necessarily a bad thing. It could be a unique feature about that super. And it sets it apart from day 1 Annie install because in Annie's case, she didn't use a bar at all for free dhcs hahaha. I just think as it is right now it's too expensive for OK reward whereas hit confirm into EX reload gives her the world and her win condition.

Would potentially like to see an alternative version of Barrel where it's already on fire so when you kick it it just instantly explodes when it makes contact with someone. Gives people the "cashout" super they want.

I think Railgun is her weakest bullet and I'd love to see it wallbounce the opponent similar to Shotgun so that you could do snipe shots into barrel conversions. I personally think they would look so sick. I think I have 0 incentive to use this bullet except when the opponent is fullscreen and at 2%.

Other than that, I think what's super unique about this character is that she follows a completely different rule when it comes to using meter. Every character wants to cashout near the end of the super into DHC DHC where she wants to use the meter as EARLY as possible to smoke your lifebar later. Its VERY unique and what's making the character so fun and expressive to me. I legit haven't had this much fun with any character in Skullgirls in the years I've been playing this game.

20/10 Liam you've truly outdone yourself on her.
Should we have any more interesting information on the Dagonians like Minette even though they are species based on sea creatures?
 
Wondering if more characters will have ways to instantly ignite the oil/barrel. Eliza's "Sun" not being hot enough is just... unfortunate.
Not the worst thing in the world for this specific example since you can tag into Eliza and find a route that explodes the barrel if you have undizzy, or just save it for pressure, but still unfortunate.
 
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My review on the character after this last update (3.5.7)

Dahlia's gotten 3 new moves (Counter, Strike! / Parting Gift / Girl's Night!), she's fully colored, with new palettes. There's been changes to all special bullets, to Tea Slip, Empower, KK, combo strings(LP>LK), metergain nerfs, and more! Truly a lot to cover! And truly and A M A Z I N G update!

Lets start with the 3 new moves:

Finally a defensive option! Its what i like to describe as a pseudo DP. It will still do the job of a reversal, but there are far less scenarios that it'll work compared to an actual DP.
I like the idea of introducing counters to the game, the mental games skyrocketed this update. Im loving this move so far.
One thing i'll say is, it'd be great if 623[Assist Macro] triggered Counter+Assist like how 214[Assist Macro] triggers reload+Assist. Right now its doing Order-Up+Assist when you do 623[Assist Macro] and it'd be great if we could get counter out of it instead.
There is 1 thing too that id say about counter and that is, H version being really... underwhelming.
If you land a counter you want the punish, you dont want to get away, plus you are spending a doily on it. It'll be very weird to get a scenario where you'd prefer doing H over L or M counter.
I personally would love to see a way for H to interact with Proyectiles, maybe not counter, but something else like dodge and teleport forward? Something to help the peacock/robo MUs that she so badly needs help on.
Lastly, while counter as an assist, by description, doesnt work on combos, it still does the job of a DP, getting you out of the corner with a time to breathe, while also providing one of the best Alpha counters in the game! Its actually nuts! I love this move, thank you so much for adding such an interesting thing to this lovely game!

This super's payoff is INMENSE. It deals tons of damage while also letting you convert OTG-less, its nuts!
But its tied to:
1) Having to place it first to then trigger, which is hard since it doesnt do any hitstun, you either 5[HP] 236PP or 236PP while barrel is exploding.
2) Needing 2 individual bars of meter, 1 to place and another to explode, which messes with how DHCs work by basically making it a lvl 3 on DHC worth of meter. Add onto that, the fact that we do aaaaalll that! all that! and the explosion is still reactable! I think, right now, there is even less of a reason to go for Parting Gift, than to go for Stage Hazard, and thats saying much! (will talk about barrel later)
Its not worth doing as a DHC, because for 2 extra bars of meter its far better doing Girl's Night! Its not worth doing over Last Call, for obvious reasons, but also, Last call + Stage Hazard gets you more damage than a combo with Parting Gift!

I think this super needs some tweaking.

First off, Meter, it cant cost 2 individual bars, for reasons already expressed.
My idea is either make it a lvl 2 to place, 0 to trigger, with unreactable superflash, or 1 to palce 0 to trigger, without the flash.

Second, Place+Explode, it's a cool mechanic unique to dahlia, that she has to set up every super she has and cash out later, but it'd be great if you could, for example, hold the input to make Parting Gift explode automatically after placing it.
The DHC potential would be insane, and it'd also help with combos a lot while finally giving her a cashout super. Whatever the case, i simply dont see a reason as to go for this super rn, and would love a change. Its a great idea, but its just not worth it rn.

OK, HEAR ME OUT! This is cracked! Best level 3 in the game! Its literally free neutral! LITERALLY!
There's like a 90% chance for anyone who does Girl's Night! to get a combo, its actual nuts!
Not only that, but it enables combos that are SO optimal, and SO cool to watch! i wouldnt be mad if someone did a combo, converting with the bunny girls, or even tagging in another character, cause it looks amazing, feels amazing, and does amazing.

This super makes Dahlia outside of point have a reason to be, outside of point. Mid dahlia's main strategy is DHCing into the bunny girls and rocking the stage for whats almost literally, free damage! Its maybe too powerful, Idk, the best damage you get with Dahlia is 9k, but if you tag out for another character, the bunnies enable much better someone like Big Band or Annie for even better damage (which is a thing i will talk later)
Overall great super, love it, dont really want to see it changed, but can understand a nerf or two going by.

Aight bullets now!

Only thing about normal, on tag in, if you do hit, you are minus... why?! i hit the opponent and i get punished for it? Empower: Great addition for it to combo into 2MP! makes routing so much better! Love it!

i absolutely LOVE the change on damage and scaling! Combos and routing look so sick now! Before it was just looping 236LP over and over but now we get to do acrobatics while comboing its so fun to watch and execute! Its also easier since 236MP/HP are available options on optimals. Even though this change lowered her damage, i think it was a good tweak!
I would love to see a version of shotgun dealing more damage, for reasons explained in (*Last Call) and (*General Last things)

There is still little to no reason to load this bullet, outside of the opponent being at 1% health left, some have suggested the idea of making the railshot bounce off walls, but im not so sure that would make it viable since the problem isnt that its not hitting, but that its a neutral tool, mostly for zoning, that gets outclassed by ice in its own job, and is worse than robo beams since it uses a resource.
My idea is, make it have 1 hit of proyectile armor, this way its purpose would be to ANTI zone rather than zone out, and would beat Ice and Lightning in that regard, while not being protected against melee attacks so it entices the enemy to go close and make a move. And it would also help the Pea / Robo MUs which are almost unwinable rn.

This buddy was toxic last patch, im glad it got reworked rather than having its numbers tweaked. Fire stays unique in its own way, i think fire is in a good position rn.

From second worst to best bullet! This one made a clear comeback holy! Literally best thing you can load for neutral, very useful in many ways and enables one of the most important things about Dahlia, her okizemi.
Ice is great as it is right now. Only thing, if you start a combo with ice at max UD you start at stage 3, might be a bug or something.

Now that Lightning doesnt do more damage than shotgun, ever, and that since ice is also a 3 hit lockdown that gives you an easy hitconfirm and pressure (but ice also stays longer, does better chip damage, freezes for a better hitconfirm AND beats armor); this bullet has fallen down to being a reset tool, which is imo great! it has a solid spot and use, its clear what you wanna do with it, but it also works on neutral as a replacement for ice that you can use in a combo to reset well. Lightning is solid like it is rn.

Specials:

We can finally block!!!
This has definetly changed how dahlia plays, she's always had this cool movement mechanic but couldnt use it very often, now she can jump in and block if the oponnent tries to reversal! I at least find myself not falling into my doom as i KK onto a 2MK Trap anymore, great stuff, but still feels underwhelming.
Its not an airdash, but its not a special, right now it feels worse than any of the two.
I would love to see a patch with KK working like a special where you could for example chain jHK jKK jHP without using OTG.
Or a backwards Onslaught.
The movement is cool but it doesnt deal with the peacock MU nor the robo MU which is mostly when you want to approach the opponent. Another cool idea is letting us decide where the KK goes, instead of it auto-directing you to the enemy.
For example having it hop short with LK+MK further with LK+HK and even further, maybe behind the oponent, with MK+HK. All in all this still needs some tweakings, it feels really bad.

I think you guys nailed it with this one, the teleport doesnt really need to be broken or anything, its a movement tool after all, and so the main focus should be getting somewhere fast. So giving it less recovery frames was absolutely perfect!
We can now put it in combos, get better mixs, safer mixs too! And actually get a reason to place it down! It wouldnt be bad if the doily fell faster but overall, this move is solid as of right now.

Not much to say about this outside of the sound on a perfect reload timing being different, i kind of like the previous sound more, but thats just my preference.
I still think it'd be nice if we got a reload with all randoms or at least more special bullets in it, it would make the skycieling really high, and allow freedom and space to show your own way of playing her more. But its not like she needs a tweak on this move, its solid atm.

Supers:

I love the concept of a utility tool super, and as a Ms Fortune main i LOVE that you can hit the barrel and it hit your opponent. It has really fun interactions and gives a bit of pressure boost for some seconds on the corner.
But to be honest, this blackbuster is LACKING HARD!
For once, it doesnt do even decent damage, and if you route it so all of barrel puddle explosions hit the enemy, the reward isnt that much compared to just exploding 1 puddle and the barrel, i think it has some lost potential working like big band's lvl 3.
As a Ms Fortune main, i LOVE that you can hit the barrel and it retaliates and hits the oponent, but this playstyle is heavily unrewarding, the damage is so low you are far better routing something else...
And right now, there is no real reason as to use this super outside of solo converting from a midscreen throw when you dont have empower. Its so nieche its never worth doing over Last Call. Its not even a cashout super, and while DHCing into it makes some supers from other characters convertable, its so unoptimal you might rather just build your team with a point that enables Last Call DHC instead.
Barrel has always been kind of nieche, and after the nerf of not hitting until like frame 8 its also not usable as a reversal...
BUT! i think it has potential to be a really cool super. It just needs a real purpose. #LetsSaveBarrel

I think i talk for everyone when i say that, WE ALL LOVE THIS SUPER! its amazing in everysingle aspect. And its so simple too! All it is giving you is the ability to select which bullet comes next, plus giving you empower, its perfect!
...
BUT... When you are losing your ability to DHC at the end of your combo, for less damage than characters like Big Band, Annie or Valentine (7.4k), needing to have the bar already built, and on top of that there is now a nerf on metergain! i mean, one just feels bad...
There is just so much cost to it, it feels as if she's chained down from the sins of previous DLC characters or something.
Either way, even if nothing is retouched on this super, its still solid, the character literally revolves around this move, its their signature move, and its so damn fun!

General Last things:

Since you are spending the bar at the start, you are probs not gonna DHC out at the end or middle of the combo, which makes her generally a worse point option over other characters that can get enabled by competitive meanaces like Annie, DHCing mid combo for lots of damage.
And since she likes to go into this super, she wants to be DHCed into her, also thanks to Girl's Night! this is even more true now.
So you'd probs play her Mid, but she has no safe DHCs, weaker defense, mid assists and does less damage as a damage engine than chars like PW or Annie. Which is another reason i think her Shotgun damage should be increased.

Great change! Literally revived the move, passed from being an Eliza's 5LP to a Ms Fortune's 5LP, and most important, we can now hit PW after empower! Nice!

Outro:
Overall, this is the strongest Dahlia has ever been so far, its been an important, and really really good update for her. A lot of problems had been addressed which only shows how much the team cares about her development and our feedback. Im looking forwards to see how she turns out to be after the beta finishes! i cant wait to see her being played on competitive levels, she is by far, one of if not the most original FG character in a WHILE!

Edit: PLS PLEASEEEE!!! Let us Taunt while waiting for C4 to explode!!! If its just for fun then let us taunt for style points! hahaha PLS!
Edit 2: It'd be so cool if we could convert from a midscreen throw by teleporting where we sent the enemy towards, and converting with 2LP! we'd need like 2 less frames of recovery to do it, its literally so close to being possible and it would look like a 200 iq play
 
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Just wanna start this by saying that Dahlia feels really good to play and shoutouts to the team for making such a fun character.

Right now my only major issues with the character are C4 and barrel being underwhelming. It's not that they're bad supers, but it's hard to justify spending meter on them when Reload super and level 3 are right there. I think the best thing you can do is give both supers more niches/situations where they're strong options to encourage players to use them more. Right now I only use barrel for empowerless throw conversions (I know some teams use it for damage but mine's doesn't so I can't say much) and C4 for killing characters when I was too lazy to route around using reload super which isn't even optimal in the first place. I have a couple of ideas that can make the supers more enticing but being 100% honest I can't say any of them are perfect

The common ways I've seen people say to buff it is by making it cost 2 up front and zero to detonate as well as being instant after the flash or making it cost 1 up front and zero to detonate but nerfing the damage slightly. The first one is cool and makes it MUCH better for DHCs but it still has the issue of being awkward to stick outside of combos in the first place and spending meter on reload super/saving for level 3 being the better deal. The 2nd one gives dahlia a cash-out super which would make routing a lot easier and you can make up for the lost damage with whoever you DHC'ed into, but the sticking someone in neutral to threaten them later aspect would probably not be used very often which is kinda boring.

I think the best way to make this super good while also keeping it interesting is to make sticking it to people outside of combos much easier. The coolest part about the super is using the threat of detonating to control neutral so focusing on that seems really fun to me. An idea I had was to make C4 stick to someone if they touch it while it's on the ground. Don't know how hard that might be to implement but that would give it a lot more value in neutral and have an interesting dynamic with assists (do you call it to clear it for your point character but risk your assist getting blown up later). Another idea I thought of was making it stick on block but also automatically fall off after a set amount of time. Still makes it easier to land but less overwhelming compared to the other idea

Barrel is a cool super that does a little bit of everything and is fun to use once it's on the stage, but nothing about it is good enough that I feel spending the bar was worth it. The very basic (and selfish cause I want a safe DHC for my team) idea I had was to just make barrel safe (or plus pretty please) on block. I think it would help dahlia's overall team synergy considering she's in a weird place where she really likes meter but lacks some self-sufficiency/team support, which makes placing her on a team kinda awkward sometimes. I admit that it doesn't do much about using the super on point but using it after a DHC is better than what we have now. I've also thought about the idea of giving it projectile immune startup to give it some usage as a counter-zoning super but I'm not 100% sure how that would turn out

Once again I will reiterate that my ideas ARE NOT perfect and I would be willing to try pretty much anything to make those supers more viable. I would love to see everyone's ideas on what to do because aside from that she feels really good to me.
 
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First off, Liam this character is awesome. I really like the setup nature and how she wants to use meter up front rather than at the end of a combo. She is super unique compared to the other characters and has really setup a place of her own in skullgirls. The various ammo types are so interesting to play with and test new ideas and setups. While her combos can be a bit too tedious at times (maybe/hopefully that is just a beta thing) they all look interesting and are fun to learn and experiment with. There are truly many possibilities with this character.

Supers​

As others have stated Parting Gift and Stage Hazard are seldom used. While they are not useless they are too expensive for what they give.

Parting Gift needs a few things to make it useful imo. Currently it feels like a less useful Silent Scope.
- Either make it 1 meter to set and explode any time with less damage or make it 2 meter up front.
- Another option would be to make it free to setup and 1 meter to explode.
- Also, There needs to be a way to pick it up when it is on the ground. This could make it free in the future or maybe even just give you meter back.

Barrel is only useful to confirm off throw solo and as a bad counter to zoning. It hardly does any damage even though the visuals make it look like it should.
- Making it safe or plus on block would help it be more useful
- as she does not have a cash out super maybe make holding the buttons cause her to light it immediately. Though I would rather have some other cash out super like some sort of robotic leg gun.

Ammo​

I like the current state of ammo except for fire and railgun.

Fire shot rework is interesting, but in many cases (especially in air) it seems less than useful. The only change that I think is needed here is for the first hit to cause a little more stun. This would allow for cleaner and more setup opportunities. Currently if you want to use it as a 50/50 with teleport you need to make sure you are standing far enough away that if they jab you don't get hit. In some cases they can just walk out of it.

Another option would be to make the 2nd hit not stop if the player gets hit -- bringing back a little of the old version.

Railgun as others have said is the least used. The only special use I have seen for it is as a setup for a cross under with 2MP, but you can do that with shotgun as well. It is sometimes nice as an expensive zoning tool but costing 1 meter to load rail is too expensive. Maybe make it do a hard knockdown or wall splat on hold?

There needs to be another way to load special ammo types that does not cost meter and is not random. (but is more risky). Echoing Nuuance here, saying a reload stance would be great for this. ((22+PP) and 30f a bullet). Having a non-randomized meterless but risky way to get special ammo would add a lot to her gameplay. She effectively has only one ammo type at the moment because the reset are paywalled.

Other​

I agree with the others here that have said that her tag in should not be negative on hit as well as counter strike should be a bit for forgiving (invulnerable or like -7 on block).

I think there should be more ways to confirm her normal throw with other characters (like Annie north knuckle). maybe make it knock up a bit more?

Extra

it is still hard to get 5HK, 236HP, 5MK, Empower consistently. Empower is sometimes slightly too short to hit small characters (Fillia).

5HK, 236HP, Last Call, microdash, 5HP (hold) seems unnecessarily hard on heavy characters. maybe make normal shot knock the character up slightly in air? This could also make some other interesting combo possibilities.
 
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Black Dahlia Alpha Review (3.5.7)

Its been a couple weeks since the latest upgrade to Black Dahlia! I've been completely charmed by her gameplay and have dropped everything i was learning to try and fit her on my team! Heres my take on her current state and where i think she needs changes.

NEW TOYS!! :PUN:

During the last patch dahlia's main weakness was her obvious lack of defensive tools. A defensive option is exactly what she needed. Although the Counter is a bit unorthodox.
my main gripe with this move is that fact that when you counter someone, it starts you off at combo stage 3 limiting your potential Damage it despite it being a "counter hit." I think she should get more reward upon hitting this. Starting the combo off at stage 2 would up the total damage you can do and in turn increase the fear factor and mind games.

H Counter is a strange move i've tried finding a more specific purpose for it but i truly haven't the only thing i could think of is using it to escape a situation where the counter might of whiffed anyway. There are many problems with this such as this move only doing its proper function when the teleport dolly is out, requiring incredibly prior planing or just getting lucky that you had the dolly in the right position to use it escape pressure. I'd liked to see this reworked into something else, like either an anti zoning tool that deals with projectiles or that the enemy still has to eat a counter attack while you escape.

This super is by far the best new addition to her kit. It has so many cool and new applications that just go on and on with how creative you can get with using it, especially with how you can place it on assists.
Despite this super's cost makes it very difficult to afford using in an actual game costing 2 meter. Compared to other 2 Meter supers this is much less devastating. Im really hoping for this super to get its cost decrease so we can see it used more often!

Forget what i said about Parting Gift. This super is one of the most absurd things i've ever seen in this game if it did any higher damage id straight up say it would need to be nerfed immediately especially with how it can pretty much win you neutral instantly as soon as you use it.
This is the biggest "Its my turn now" Move in the game ever, even more so than other comparable lock down lvl3's like Annie's and Squigly's. Id say if it turns out that black dahlia and her bunnies are a bit too strong id tune down either the bunnies firing speed or make them easier to destroy like being able to snap dahlia out and make them go away.

Old Fashion :

Onslaught is a very interesting movement tool. This and her back dash allow her to move in very different ways unlike the rest of the cast making her quite difficult character to catch. the new buff of being able to block after the flip is a very nice quality of life. id still say that currently despite the new buff onslaught could probably do slightly more, The main thing i want to see out of onslaught is being allowed to cancel your jumping normals like a typical air dash. I feel like this has been already considered by the devs so id like to at least know why they did add it.
I don't think this change is too strong since Onslaught is a command dash meaning that even if she can IAD she will be forced into that specific arc instead of being able to instead overhead and cross people up. her only instead overhead will still be grounded onslaught J.:LK: and her main cross up will be J.:HP: or Tea Slip shenanigans.
If anything this mainly come in help with doing Kara J.:HK: Lowered air-dashes and make that technique much more stream lined.

This move is in a great spot right now. the only thing i could ask for is to reduce the start up or end of the teleport.

Right now i dislike how the current reload system is completely randomised. Even if you can use H and m reload to predict your bullet loadout, its still completely unknown to you what order you will get the special bullets in. This is very clunky. It feels like the main mechanic of the character is to play what around special bullets you load in, but due to what special bullets you get being essentially out of your control you mainly just treat them like more damaging standard shots or a slightly better neutral tool.
Id like to see an addition to the UI were it displays the next 2 special bullets in your line up. this would give you more agency and control over your loadout and will give more mindful play to using both Heavy and Medium reload instead of feeling like you are just being dealt a bad hands in poker.

Ice Bullet:
Ice is Definitely the strongest bullet and very busted right now you can honestly do the same thing you did with the pre-patch Fire shot and Shoot it around in neutral just win by default, accept this time its much more dangerous. You can basically get full confirms off of the ice shot instead of having to deal with the high combo scaling of old fire. You can it use it to pretty much completely shut down any characters that want to approach you especially ones with armor. Big Band, Beowulf, and Cerebella are all comply screwed when they see a dahlia use last call and load 6 ice shots.
Ice Bullet should not have 3 different hits but instead it could have either a faster projectile speed when fired to help with long range confirms.

Electric Bullet:
The Thunder shot was definitely the strongest pre-patch but this was mainly because all of the other special shots expect for fire were generally not that better than the normal standard shot in neutral. Comparing it to the ice shot we have now its definitely worse. I'd Rather Deal With old Electric than the Ice Shot we have now. Im really encouraging that the nerfs that happened to lightening be reverted.The reduced hitstun made it so you can no longer run under someone twice if you stun them in the air. The reduced damaged nerf took away Lighting's niche of doing more damage than buckshot at the end of a combo. If there is any special bullet that specialise in locking the enemy down it should be lighting considering its projectiles arc and what it does on hit, it would be much more healthier for the game than the current ice shot.

Fire Bullet:
The new fire bullet is a very welcome change especially considering how toxic the old fire bullet chip damage was. This bouncing shot is 100% the exact kind of projectile dahlia was looking for to help argument her mix up game. The only thing i do is give it about 300 more damage on each hit. It is napalm after all it should leave more of a mark.

Overview:

Black Dahlia is currently in the best state she's ever been in and feels right at home with the Skullgirls cast. She's not only very fun but her unique specials and supers and supers add mechanics i've never seen in a fighting game before. The only other changes i could recommend would be reducing the end lag frame on Last Call Making DHC'ing into this super much Easier for other characters since i feel like the main issue that will arise when this character releases will be fitting her on a team. Because of her assists either being very niche or not very powerful. Last Call being the main advantage to putting her on a team will not only be very strong but probably very fun. allowing people to come up with all sorts of set ups and combos. This character is a very good spot but she feels limited by some of her options not being Powerful enough or her not adding much to a team due to her assist leaving something to be desired or Her DHCs being very hard to work around.

Final:

Im Probably asking for way too much change for a character that feels likes she's only really left in her tuning phase but i'm basically just listening off my gripes with what this character can do and how something can be stronger, if not more healthy for the game. Dahlia has so much potential and i'd hate to see it go wasted with her turning out to not being able keep up with the rest of the cast. but in currently stage she feels very strong so im sure my worries are unnessacary.
PS: revert the tag in nerf plz ; - ;
 
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I would like to see Black Dahlia get a little bit more control on her barrel super. It would be nice if she could control the initial placement of the barrel depending on the buttons pressed to activate. For example lk+mk - right in front of BD, mk+hp half screen, lk+hk full screen. The barrel is extremely good at blocking zoning projectiles and has a lot of power in the peacock matchup specifically but you often want to keep the barrel right infront of you for protection. As it stands now it just always rolls full screen and it now becomes much harder to bring it back closer to BD. I also believe just having a bit more control of the spacing of the barrel will help with making combos using it more consistent.
 
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dahlia is really cool, like her a lot this patch and think shes plenty strong

no gigantic wishlist and i dont think she has any glaringly bad qol stuff, but have a few smallerish things i think would be nice and fair

like sonic said above counter on block should probably be safer? i think countering an assist and it being safe is maybe too much but I've been consistently able to do late jump ins vs counter and block it and then get a very good punish when the dahlia player was right

I also agree with namlay, barrel is way too cool of a super with tons of pressure and neutral applications for it to be launched so far away from you, being able to keep it close on activation would be really really cool, though maybe it would be a bit too strong to not have to spend any serious UD to route for assult JLK overhead to pop the barrel right on them. stuff to consider I guess. I just have so much cool stuff i want to do with barrel midscreen, and in corner it feels way better to just load shotguns and abuse plus frames

a few less frames of recovery on reload super would be appreciated so that it plays nice with more DHCs but its probably not needed overall

have no opinions on c4 i never use it

lvl 3 is way too good

please leave kara onslaught in please its so cool

editing with a quote reply:
antiglow said:
it is still hard to get 5HK, 236HP, 5MK, Empower consistently. Empower is sometimes slightly too short to hit small characters (Fillia).

5HK, 236HP, Last Call, microdash, 5HP (hold) seems unnecessarily hard on heavy characters. maybe make normal shot knock the character up slightly in air? This could also make some other interesting combo possibilities.

If you're ever coming up short with empower hitbox after 5mk just kara 2hp into it, it feels like it effectively doubles empowers already very big hitbox
 
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I've been meaning to write a post for a minute, but honestly everytime I feel solid about dahlia I discover something that changes my opinion. The character is super cool and with more lab time and optimization she does things very similar to the existing cast while still only being in beta.

As a warning, this will probably just be me rambling and I'll edit it later today for readability.

I'm not of the opinion that her counter should be touched just yet. I know alot of people are upset that you can be "right", but still lost the interaction. I think the ability to easily set capes in combos that last indefinitely to eleport to when needed, the ability to call an assist while doing the counter input to simultaneously cover the recovery and convert on successful hit, and the ability to counter some of the better assists in the game on reaction and create health / assist advantage for herself is insane. Countering assists and strategies like brass and downback / upback dp with a 50/50 on which way the counter hits is so incredibly strong imo I'd rather see people play into that more.

I think her air buttons are absurd and I love that for her. J.lp being another fukua j.lp. j.mp demands respect in the mid range. J.hk is really cool. Etc.

I think her bullets are all really strong and I'd like to sit on them for a little bit before changing anything. Fire shot let's her become fukua. Ice Shot dominates neutral. Electric does the same while being more intuitive to aim. Laser is really good to rng into but feels pretty bad to select intentionally. Shotgun is sick. If anything, rather than buffs or nerfs, I think Dahlia would benefit alot if she could see special ammo alot more consistently. I think if you scrutinize each bullet you'll always have a "best" one or two for the situation, and with reload super allowing you to choose, you'll always choose the "best" ones. That being said I don't think the second or third best bullets for the situation are much further behind, there's just no reason to pick them over the best ones. If she could see ammo more consistently than dumping bar I think the opinion on the "weaker" bullets would be much more favorable.

After the nerfs (and slight buff this patch) 5mk really doesn't feel like a button I want to press. It's hitbox is fairly high so sometimes it just whiffs in situations you want it to hit OTG. Its slower than the similarly ranged overhead 5hp. And it does very little damage for actually connecting. I'm unsure what exactly to change. Then the forward movement occurs pretty late in the animation so its not even useful as a carrier for kara specials. I'd personally rather just see it be a normal button with no movement attached and with an added hitbox to make it more consistent with otg hits, and more intuitive to press, but I know alot of people find the forward movement fun. While speaking candidly on stream people suggested giving it the annue 2lk treatment where it acts differently while dashing which might be cool as well.

5mp is another weird button. It's also has difficulties picking up otg. It has a high hitbox, but not high enough to be consistent as an anti air. It's high hitbox also makes it lose against traditional grounded pokes despite also being a forward moving button. It feels like a button that doesn't have a place rn. It feels like it was meant to be a button to help fix / save confirms, but with its inconsistencies and things like empower linking into 2mp and putting medium punch on IPS tracking just mean I don't press it at all.

I think that while her supers are supposed to be utility supers, all they really do is compete for damage. Barrel super does damage, c4 does damage, and reload super does damage. Both barrel and c4 just don't do enough damage to justify their meter cost over more consistent (reload super) or stronger (level 3) options. When it comes to buffing those supers, I'd rather see them get buffs separate from just making their damage go up.

Personally, I'd love to see this super transition into a conversion super. I'd like to see the barrel be faster while rolling, with a higher knockup that you could combo barrel hit -> fire explosions consistently. Right now there are ranges where the barrel hits but they tech before the fire explosions reach them.

I'd love to see the power of c4 reeled in and narrowed to be an assist punish super. Right now it's supposed to be a pillar of creation / sing sbo function where you stick it on and later explode it on reaction, but with it not having enough hitstop on the detonation you can dp through the detonation and punish Dahlia. Rather than see it buffed into another toxic red light green light super, I think it would be super cool if it filled a niche of denying assist calls. Right now at 2 bars and superflash on application and detonation, I feel it doesn't do that as well as it could.

Level 3 feels incredibly strong. I'd like to see it stay for the time being but it absolutely should dissappear on Dahlia death and Dahlia tag. Having a super that strong without needing to actually play dahlia is a bit too much imo.

I'd like to see Electric, Shotgun, and Laser locked to the L angle when used as an assist. I hate to say it but the m angle for those moves are terrible.

I'd like to try a version of Dahlia that sees special ammo more consistently. I think spending 50frames to reload to then see a special bullet after shooting 2 normals is kinda whack. I'd love to see a version of reload that gives her one of each bullet, but I can see how that would be incredibly strong

I still hate the idea of onslaught. I still very much wish I could call assists, or cancel my air buttons, or go backwards. I'm still of the opinion that alot of its uniqueness comes from the things it lacks rather than the things it provides. I've seen the idea thrown around of spending a bullet for an empowered onslaught, maybe bringing back the sj. Onslaught refreshing your assist, being able to onslaught cancel your air normals, or even the puff of air from onslaught having a hitbox and igniting the barrel.

Reload super should probably have lower recovery on hit. This way it's applicable as a combo dhc from more supers while not being safe on block.

Lastly I think normal shots should not have hitstun decay similar to Double's luger. With dahlia having limited routing options to connect normals other than empower (which she gets 1 per combo) and shots, I don't think her standard bullets should have anti-combo properties. It makes converting off neutral touches kind of awkward if you aren't familiar with the mechanic and frankly doing ABC launcher ABC restand just isn't fun at all. I don't think I should be further punished for spending a resource in combos.
 
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posting with something small and I'll probably edit/double post with a larger thought this weekend


I think backdash needs some sort of lockout on grounded specials.

why: backdash shot is her least frame commitment way to get ammo onto the screen/most plus way to do buckshot overheads

currently it is insanely easy to get backdash to grounded shot when going for asap backdash cancels, and it feels pretty awful in a way the rest of the characters QoL stuff and buffers don't.

backdash onslaught doesnt have this problem afaik, just shot (I think bd shot was added later?)

I think it'd be a small thing that really makes piloting her feel way more fluid
 
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I came to check the temperature on Dahlia and offer my own feedback, but I'm pretty much right in line with SonicFox. Parting Gift is awesome but too expensive to be truly useful the way it exists right now; rail is fun but should reliably convert to full combos somehow, even if that means spending meter to do so; and this is also the coolest fighting game character I've ever seen. I knew that from the moment I saw Last Call for the first time, but it's even more apparent now.
 
Quick post:
Parting Gift currently if attached to your next character, when Dahlia dies the C4 explodes outside the stage.

I strongly think the C4 attached to a character thats gonna fall from incoming (anywhere, not just at the corner), after dahlia died, should fall with the C4 dropping on the stage, and for C4 not to explode outside of stage.

Feels like a missed opportunity, since attaching a C4 onto your assist has LITERALLY no uses, there is no setup, no reason, no why you would wanna explode the C4 and damage your own character for the lot of damage it does to them. So basically, right now its all a downside to attacht it to an assist.
But if the C4 would come and drop instead of exploding outside stage, it would make C4 on an assist have at least, 1 solid use. And its a defensive use and it would make Dahlia have a good reason as to pick her, upgrading the defense of your team when things go south.
I really think this could make Dahlia's Parting Gift Blockbuster more appealing to use. Pls consider this!

This is what i mean: https://youtu.be/VPI8kgosums

Edit, if an assist with a C4 attached to it gets killed, it somehow makes the C4 spawn at the left of the screen like the other scenarios
 
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ReyMercury said:
Quick post:
Parting Gift currently if attached to your next character, when Dahlia dies the C4 explodes outside the stage.

I strongly think the C4 attached to a character thats gonna fall from incoming (anywhere, not just at the corner), after dahlia died, should fall with the C4 dropping on the stage, and for C4 not to explode outside of stage.

Feels like a missed opportunity, since attaching a C4 onto your assist has LITERALLY no uses, there is no setup, no reason, no why you would wanna explode the C4 and damage your own character for the lot of damage it does to them. So basically, right now its all a downside to attacht it to an assist.
But if the C4 would come and drop instead of exploding outside stage, it would make C4 on an assist have at least, 1 solid use. And its a defensive use and it would make Dahlia have a good reason as to pick her, upgrading the defense of your team when things go south.
I really think this could make Dahlia's Parting Gift Blockbuster more appealing to use. Pls consider this!

This is what i mean: https://youtu.be/VPI8kgosums
You can attach it to your assist, then DHC out of your other character back into Dahlia, and the C4 can explode during the invuln frames of the other character's super. It's a poor use of meter, but it's certainly a use.
 
I think Dahlia is cool. I think everyone brings up some very good points with little edits here and there.

I want to touch on the request for more special bullets given with regular reload. This isn't specifically to do with the 3/6 load out, or wanting even more variation of bullets with one reload.

I think what Platinum (Blazblue) does so well for an RNG character, is that she has several of the same item before gaining new ones. She adapts her gameplan with the knowledge that she doesn't have to conserve or discard an item based on the single use getting in the way.

I think harmonizing Dahlia combo routes & neutral without reload super would be changing reload to give you xx/yy/zz. (xx/yy/xx if you don't want to give us 2 pairs of special bullets). Originally I understand that Dahlia was to lack a bullet HUD, and that the large mental stack was purposeful. However I think with such a fast-paced game, the consistency of creating on-the-fly gameplans is necessary for her effectiveness. This would help.

xxx/yyy would also be nice but I understand that might seem too drastic when Super Reload is being pushed as the answer to solving bullet patterns.
 
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ampersandrew said:
You can attach it to your assist, then DHC out of your other character back into Dahlia, and the C4 can explode during the invuln frames of the other character's super. It's a poor use of meter, but it's certainly a use.
Probably more of a general beta thread reply but it's here so yeah.

Most understand not everything will be a gamechanging part of the game. But I think it'd be nice if moving forward, the 'there's this one tiny niche situation' gets put on the backburner. Like Eliza's throne, Squiglys uncharged tremolo, or Dahlia's bomb on assist. They take up a valuable slot as a special or super & they should be at least as effective/useable as filia's drills if we're talking lower end. Opinion for sure, but It's nitpicky to me in an unproductive way.

For a really new wild super like that maybe there's some sort of part of it we're missing. That's normal. But if it's *in the game* it should be useful past a very low occurring uber niche scenario. That's all I'm saying. Niche is good to be clear...integral. That's where Robo lives. But her tools are very clearly defined & overlap into other uses sometimes. I hope for whatever changes going forward, this is considered. Especially for stuff like 5mk, reloads & barrel/bomb supers in general having better defined use cases.

Suggestion-wise perhaps it does double damage to opponent &/or significantly less scaling, but you also damage your assist more & wait longer for red life regen. Orrr.. a more creative use, at a certain damage range (so it cant be predicted), bomb explodes for a self-implemented burst when assist is playing. Bunch of hitstun on block so opponent cant exploit.

softie said:
posting with something small and I'll probably edit/double post with a larger thought this weekend


I think backdash needs some sort of lockout on grounded specials.

why: backdash shot is her least frame commitment way to get ammo onto the screen/most plus way to do buckshot overheads

currently it is insanely easy to get backdash to grounded shot when going for asap backdash cancels, and it feels pretty awful in a way the rest of the characters QoL stuff and buffers don't.

backdash onslaught doesnt have this problem afaik, just shot (I think bd shot was added later?)

I think it'd be a small thing that really makes piloting her feel way more fluid
Tbh part of the post I dont understand (that's probably just me) but I think I kinda get a bit of what you're saying? If I understand correctly, a problem with backdash + shot? As a hybrid/utility zoner that's kind of her bread n butter. FGs in general allow zoners to run & gun (i guess literally in this case). I think Testament from Strive is a pretty good example. Hopefully I'm understanding, very little sleep.
 
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Okay here are my thoughts

Movement -

Please, for like one patch, test her backdash being the same as squiglies, like literally copy and paste squigly backdash onto her.Her setplay and movement requires so much precision that being FORCED a certain distance of complete INACTION (Val can forward dash) is so awful for a character like her. Was this precedent not broken when you guys reworked doubles dash from being flesh step?

Normals

Standing Light Punch - Thank you for fixing it
Magic string between lights - Really nice, MPGame is really showing how it can be abused, excellent touch
Standing Medium Punch - It feels like it goes REALLY short now, I find myself getting whiff punished by it a lot. IDK if it changed but it felt better some patches ago.

Jumping heavy kick - Please give her more options to work from this normal, let me do falling lights more consistently or give her something more she can do in the air. She needs anything more freeform on this specific normal because it requires so much specificity to actually use it, that it feels boring and unimportant.

Specials

Not much to say about her specials because they are all pretty fun actually. No thoughts here

Bullets

Ice - Ice is clearly the best bullet right now. It breaks armor, it guarantees a combo, it does chip damage, it lingers, her best bullet to load is Ice right now because her strongest understood playstyle as of this are high lows and forcing oki.

Shotgun - This bullet is fine but I wish there was more a person could do from aerial light shot. The slide is really cool but like, what do I do from this position that wont immediately trigger IPS from another bullet or require meter.

Electric - Having less time to work with means a lot of her cooler reset setups are gone now. Kind of dont even like loading it. Ice outclasses it in so many ways

Fire - Fire is okay and I miss having the ONE bullet that functioned differently and had to be respected. Sad to see it go when the counterplay was to literally run at dahlia considering her bullet loaded doesnt have an active hitbox. I also miss being able to trigger the barrel with s.hp(empower) fireshot(L) into barrel in the corner.

Railgun - This bullet is so boring and is literally outclassed by EVERY other bullet as far as utility. Turn it into the quadlaser, turn it into samus' grab (Functionally a hookshot/Seria chord) turn it into something that isnt just a robo beam PLEASE.

Supers

Her level 3 is literal perfection.

Barrel is fun I kinda want more opportunity to use it let it stay longer

C4 - Bro this super is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much setup. I sure love investing 1 meter and half of my combo/setup to do nothing immediately in order to need another meter to get a GOTCHA super. Annie can have pillar for 2 meter but dahlia needs to do WHAT for a C4??? Im sorry? Atleast give the detonation hitstop or turn Bomb toss into a special so that it doesnt feel like so much investment.


RELOAD MECHANIC

This is the big one. Reload is really not fun to play with. needing two bullets to get to your special is to much investment when your opponent doesnt need to do anything but hit you regularly. I propose this rework

Light Reload - Same as is, you get 6 regular bullets, consistent and reliable. This is a complete wipe to whatever was in your gun already

Medium Reload - TWO OPTIONS HERE - Additive reload, where the regular bullets you load are ADDED to the magazine and dont wipe whatever you had in your gun. So if you we're down to two shotgun bullets, and you use medium reload, the order would be

Shotgun-Shotgun-Regular-Regular-Regular-Regular

OR (And this is the fun one)

3-6 Bullets Load. Completely Random Bullets. Make dahlia the most interesting character in the game and reward the shit out of people who want the special bullets

And the big one for me

Heavy Reload - Dahlia tosses one bullet into the air. When you hit ANY of her normal buttons to hit the active reload window, the corresponding normal will load, this singular bullet, the one the normal corresponds with.

For example,

Dahlia inputs heavy reload, flicks one bullet up, Player pressed LK to trigger the active reload - The bullet loaded is then FIRE. This gives dahlia meterless and slow, but reliable on demand access to her special bullets.




Regardless of the criticism, the one thing I asked that everyone else was asking DIFFERENTLY of was what dahlia needed more of. I am so, so, so, so, SO glad that she got more TOOLS. Shes a character that needed TOOLS. She has so many TOOLS. thank god she doesnt have a damage cash out super so much omg thank you.


DEAR SOUND DESIGN TEAM. PLEASE REPLACE THE ACTIVE RELOAD AUDIO SUCCESS SFX WITH AN M1GARAND PING.

ONE PATCH BRO/SIS/THES, PLS
 
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I too, enjoy spending 150 ud to burn through 2 dogshit bullets then having to find some godforsaken way to burn 2 more bullets post successful mix

give us one patch with 6 random bullets on hreload please and just see if its too good or not
 
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agree with most of triv post but I'm a bit confused on the backdash part
Triviality said:
Please, for like one patch, test her backdash being the same as squiglies, like literally copy and paste squigly backdash onto her.Her setplay and movement requires so much precision that being FORCED a certain distance of complete INACTION (Val can forward dash) is so awful for a character like her.
mainly saying val can forward dash, dahlia can onslaught out of backdash so that movement feels equivalent? val being able to dj out of backdash is dramatically better though


I really like backdash when it's utility shines but man I wish she had a mediocre normal backdash and her current one was like, 4KK input
 
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softie said:
agree with most of triv post but I'm a bit confused on the backdash part

mainly saying val can forward dash, dahlia can onslaught out of backdash so that movement feels equivalent? val being able to dj out of backdash is dramatically better though


I really like backdash when it's utility shines but man I wish she had a mediocre normal backdash and her current one was like, 4KK input
I want, for one patch, to literally copy and paste the logic, mechanics, even a whiteout animation if need be, of literally squiglys backdash, and just SLAP it on dahlia, and watch how much better she'll feel to play
 
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Triviality said:
I want, for one patch, to literally copy and paste the logic, mechanics, even a whiteout animation if need be, of literally squiglys backdash, and just SLAP it on dahlia, and watch how much better she'll feel to play
I see what you mean. Or at least tapping forward to trigger landing animation right there. Regardless, slightly faster startup I'd like to see. Mainly, I'm still confused about air-backdash. Feels disjointed not being part of her kit when similar archetypes have additional air actions. Use same animation.

Looking at earlier comments I think this genuinely solves reloading:

- Holding back on reload keeps what you got & simply fill remaining slots.
- Normal H-reload's all random. Active-reload/Just-frame you choose 1 bullet at a time using corresponding normal like triv said. Frontloads by default, keep previous ammo.
- Since backloading's solved, M-strength's 3 random, 3 normal. Active-reload gives 3 of the same random bullet (i.e. 3 electric, 3 normal).

I'd like trying holding 2mk to use current bullet in the trap as additional way to use ammo. As well, 5/j.mk loads boot w/bullet bayonetta style, moving forward slightly more. Could be qcf+mk too. Obviously not useless, but mp overshadows it a lot for air & ground. The numbers don't change very much since you're still using a bullet & filling up Undizzy/using IPS.

I can't say enough, the bullets & elemental attributes is a really good idea. This is what I think of when player expression/style. Overall this is I think the coolest thing in SG mechanic-wise & would love dumping ammo besides just shooting it. She's an unconventional hitwoman so just makes sense to me applying to other parts of her kit
 
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railgun should leave the now unused lingering campfire on surfaces that it hits. And should bank and reflect off of surfaces of the screen in its M and H versions
 
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I agree with triv about electric bullet being underwhelming currently. On top of losing some cool mixups and resets, even her combos that would require it are a little uncomfortable to do due to low hitstun. jHK jLGun onsl confirm in particular is now a surprisingly tough link with electric bullet for how mediocre damage it does with nerfed electric damage. It used to be my favorite combo part to do and now its just not worth it cause ice is sipmly fills all the gaps electric used to do in that regard. So yeah, I'd really wish for electric bullet to be compensated somehow for how little it does - either in damage or hitstun.
 
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Had some ideas for her standard, red ammo and for reloads.
I know not everyone likes how the current reloads work. Also read some people coming up with special mechanics for if you picked normal ammo during Last Call.

FASTER RELOADS -- Last Call gets less recovery if you do all LP ammo (or 3/6 for different speeds) to enable more links/make it safer on block. 214MP could have a shorter animation than the other two, or always do the active reload for similar purposes. I think most people would prefer different reload mechanics on it though.

DOUBLE SHOT -- When you have a red bullet in your barrel, you can hold the P button to shoot that and the next bullet consecutively. Maybe you could only do it on the ground because of the animation. Might expend Empowered buff (similar input, use Last Call to do it).
- Maybe two consecutive red bullets wouldn't use Empower.
- Being able to chain different strengths together could be cool.
- Either of those might make things feel bloated though.

METER RESTORE -- Loading LP shots during Last Call refund Dahlia's meter spent at the end of the animation. I thought about a 50% max refund at first, but that would make it a SUPER cheap DHC. 30% max (5% meter per LP shot) or something lower might work IDK.
- I came up with the idea as a solo/point tool, so maybe the meter return is scaled to like 1-2% per shot when you use it as a DHC.


OTHER NOTES
- Love the character. I think her specials are okay, but I love her supers.
- I wish one of her shots stopped Stage Hazard from moving or sent it backward (ISoD does that), so that 5[HP] xx 236LP xx Stage Hazard let you interact with the barrel more mid-screen.
- Let her choose which direction Parting Gift sends you by hitting P or K.
- Back before the fire round was released, my friend watched some matches and thought Dahlia ignited her teleport doilies to get the flame carpets. Since she can only have one out that, that could be cool!
- Is she gonna use the riot shield for anything besides her stand block? When's she getting Charging Star?
 
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Had some time today so here's my thoughts and suggestions on current dahlia:

5LK: Even being +4 on block this button is still kinda useless outside of combos.

-Suggestion: Make it hit low and maybe extend the hitbox a little lower so it doesn't whiff in some edge case otgs.



5MK: You'd think this button is strong for how long it is but it gets almost completely outclassed by 5mp. Sure it reaches a little farther but it has less than half the active frames, has pretty terrible vertical range and it's just very slow so it's a pain to use in neutral and even to route into combos, in fact, if you microdash 5mp so they both hit on frame 22, 5mk even ends up having shorter range... also otgless 5HK H shot 5MK should be universal again.

-Suggestion: Reduce start-up from 21f to 18f (I really don't see what the problem is with it being linkable from all lights).



2MK: Amazing neutral tool, would still like to see it being special cancellable.

-Suggestion: Allow special cancels during the aerial portion of this move.



jMP: Strong neutral button but having a tiny bit less pushback on the second hit to confirm into jhk from a bit farther would be nice. Feels like most of the time jhk whiffs even if you're just out of range for the first hit of jmp to connect. Also this doing the same damage as jmk while being multi-hit is not great, a marginal damage increase would at least make it more worthwhile in combos at higher scaling.

-Suggestion: Reduce pushback slightly on the second hit, dmg 300-200 -> 300-300



jHP: Base jhp still feels like it should do more damage but I guess it's fine.

-Suggestion: dmg 650 -> 750



jHK: Amazing mid-range button but has waaaay too much recovery, in fact, cancelling into shot WITHOUT BULLETS recovers 4 frames faster than just jhk alone which is bizarre. Also no reason to force blue bounce when used in a chain imo.

-Suggestion: ~5-10 less frames of recovery and blockstun, and purple bounce when chained into.
Onslaught: Being able to block feels soooo much better. I personally don't mind not having a backwards version or not being able to cancel normals into it, but would definitely be fun to try.



Order up:
LP round: Could probably be +, and limiting the higher juggle on air hit to 1 doesn't make much sense now that her routing revolves mostly around 5hp. On blockstrings it's like being parasoul forced to end every string with M tear shot, while having a limited amount of them. And you can't even combo from overhead 5hp L shot. Honestly this resource that's absolutely required for this character to function being this limited with all the other shit that exists in this game is wild.

-Suggestion: Would try making it +1 on block instead and making the higher juggle you get from the first bullet that hits an aerial opponent happen every time.


MP round: Probably a bug but grounded L buckshot specifically only does 1000 base dmg if you load it midcombo as opposed to 1100 like every other version. This round feels great overall.


HP round: Laser is ok when you get it from reload rng but there's very little reason to ever load it with super, and the angles you get from the grounded M and H versions are way too high to hit anything 99% of the time. It's decent but could use some love.

-Suggestion: Either increase hitstop or make it send them a bit higher so it combos into barrel into a full conversion (faster barrel), being able to do backdash air M laser > ground L laser > barrel > confirm would be sick. Reflecting on surfaces would be cool but would probably have be a fast projectile instead of instant and I can see that being an issue (if it's possible maybe make just the M and H versions like that and keep ground L and air M instant). Laser could knock the opponent towards you instead of away from you, would be very fun but maybe too strong.


LK round: Much cooler fire than the previous version.


MK round: Ice is VERY busted right now, way stronger than old fire and there's pretty much no reason to ever load a different bullet. Best one for pressure, chip, conversions, neutral... 100% needs nerfs.

-Suggestion: Swap the chip damage values with HK round, remove the special armor breaking property since it's multi-hit now and maybe add some forced scaling on follow-ups. Probably shouldn't trigger the slow 3-hit explosion when it hits the ground like fire not bouncing on the floor.


HK round: Pretty useless right now. Travelling straight horizontally is nice but now that fire has the no-knockdown function and in a much stronger way this has pretty much 0 use over any other round. Upward angles are also very useless.

-Suggestion: Swap chip damage values with MK round (maybe a big higher), make it go through/pierce projectiles and not disappear if you get hit by a projectile and make the bullets bounce on the ceiling the same way they do on the corner.



Another round/Rush order (reload): M reload is still useless and rush order is still pointless. There's nothing particularly wrong with either of those tbh but some extra spice would be nice. Triv's idea to make the button you use for Rush order give you that corresponding bullet sounds cool.



Tea time/slip (teleport): Another move that has no reason to be this limited when peacock exists but it's whatever. Still a nice tool to have.

-Suggestion: Invul starting in 4 or 5 frames as opposed to 17 (peacock's is 7f).



Empower: Still a long shot suggestion but empowering LP rounds and reload would still be cool. This move is great regardless.

-Suggestion: Successful Empower buffs the next 2 default rounds you have loaded each time you hit the opponent with it (could indicate it by making them glow in the chamber or something). Last call makes all the default rounds you load powered up. Empowered bullets don't lose their bonuses after you use empowered normals.

Empowered shots:
don't go away if you get hit
21f start-up like the other special rounds
3 more frames of blockstun to make it +2 on block
damage 750 -> 850

Empowered reload (214[HP]): Longer start-up and uses up the empower buff to load 6 fully randomized special rounds (includes buffed LP round).



Counter strike: Finally having a real defensive option is sick but I'm not a fan of having 10 years of recovery on a successful counter, really shouldn't be punishable on block. Also H counter seems pretty pointless but idk.

-Suggestion: Reduce recovery by ~10f and increase blockstun to make it like -5 instead of -21 on block and make H counter doable on projectiles (at least when the doily is set).
Other than reload, her supers are kinda all over the place rn...

Stage hazard (barrel): Very lackluster overall. Feels like it's supposed to help against zoning but most projectiles just go right over it, it's the closest thing she has to a cash-out super but only does about 700 damage at the end of a combo, has very little actual utility within her kit and it's pretty awkward to interact with in general. Really low value for the bar.

-Suggestion: Make it safe on block maybe? You could give dahlia projectile invul during the animation and make it a bit taller to block more grounded projectiles like tear shots and robo beams to make for a better anti-zoning tool, and maybe increase the damage of the final explosion to about 800 at max scaling.
Another long shot but would be fun: Add different versions for different button combinations:
LK+MK kicking the barrel right in front of her (about 2 or 3 oil puddles)
LK+HK kicking it about halfscreen (if possible I'd love to see it kicked at an upwards angle like M order up, but not travelling as far)
MK+HK kicking it fullscreen faster to combo from L laser



Parting gift (dynamite): I have no idea what this super is even supposed to do... It feels like it's meant to be a call-out in neutral but it's very post-flash reactable and you need to get a hit BEFORE setting it up so definitely not that I guess? Damage is very mediocre for 2 bars and why in the world can you stick your own assist??? I thought it was at least gonna be a safe dhc into the activation but it's still like -12...

-Suggestion: I really have no idea but maybe lower the damage and make the activation free so I can at least throw it out sometimes without it feeling like the biggest waste of meter.



Girl's night (lv3): Insta win button. I like how this super works but it's waaaaaay too strong rn.

-Suggestion: Instead of just making the duration shorter, first I'd like to try making the bunnies go away if dahlia gets snapped out or dies and maybe pausing them from starting a new attack if dahlia is getting hit.
the recovery on this move is absurd. her tag with default ammo is still -28 ON HIT my dude please help

Everything not mentioned I'm happy with the current state.
 
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"the recovery on this move is absurd. her tag with default ammo is still -28 ON HIT my dude please help"
"in fact, cancelling into shot WITHOUT BULLETS recovers 4 frames faster than just jhk alone which is bizarre. Also no reason to force blue bounce when used in a chain imo."


what
1675006567892.png
 
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Problems with Dahlia that probably need an actual beta test cycle to test solutions to:
Lack of raw cash out super that doesn't need more normals used, basically all the power of Dahlia supers got put into bunny call :getemgirls:
C4 is the most comically fun but borderline unusable super in the game.
Tag being minus on hit where most of the cast will straight up get value from it.
Ice shot reigning supreme because its active all the way, sets up chip situations, picks up point and assist, lets you convert, most of which isn't a fault of ice shot but the other shots sucking for something you have to spend a resource before you are even allowed to play around with.
jHK not being a hitbox starting sooner and closer to Dahlia and being awkward to convert despite this stiff tall character not having the movement to work it harder.
Basic shots should just be the basic shot and not need to be reloaded, which might help with next point.
Assists outside the singular normal range from trash to useless except if you invest 1 entire bar into making her shot assist good for 6 calls, chiefly because she has a hit grab and a counter and no other special moves to work with.
If you run teleport assist you can't be real
Her movement is ass as far as I care, let her use the grapple hook for more than leaving the screen.
 
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Appreciate the feedback so far, going to be making some changes and testing out some experiments hopefully this week. For those advocating for brand new mechanics and redesigning things completely (many of which are asking for new art), we won't be doing anything like that right now as the character needs to begin to stabilize for her release. We're open to revisiting some of her tools as part the beta cycle after her release dedicated for balancing and experiments though!

...

• Tag in has to have a lot of recovery or else Ice Shot will be safe on tag in (no), but perhaps her Normal Shot from Tag In can just always knockdown.

• We can hopefully experiment with a level one version of Parting Gift, but I'd very much like to avoid anything that cheats DHC or meterspending rules as a result of it being a two part super.

• For Girl's Night, outtake will probably interact with it somehow as a counterplay option, but the extent of how that will work remains to be seen.

• Lots of other reasonable QoL or minor tweaks suggested we're open to implementing, so we'll give them a shot and see what makes it into the next patch.

• Please do continue reporting bugs in official channels (new threads on SH in bug sections, or Discord) so we can get them all resolved for her release, and thank you for all of the bugs reported so far!

softie said:
currently it is insanely easy to get backdash to grounded shot when going for asap backdash cancels, and it feels pretty awful in a way the rest of the characters QoL stuff and buffers don't.
Backdash is 6F start up, are you going from a backwards input and completing 236P in 6F? I like to think I'm okay at inputs but 4,4,236P or 4+PP,236P in 6 frames is really hard even for me - are you trying to do this from a buffered backdash somewhere?
 
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Liam said:
For those advocating for brand new mechanics and redesigning things completely (many of which are asking for new art), we won't be doing anything like that right now as the character needs to begin to stabilize for her release. We're open to revisiting some of her tools as part the beta cycle after her release dedicated for balancing and experiments though!
Hey, during the balance cycle, maybe you could manipulate the character select screen to pave the way for the portraits of Marie and future characters and probably give the rest of the cast their voice lines specific to Annie,
 
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