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Blocking after super flash

Jason said:
I think it would make back dashes way too safe if you could do that. They're already pretty useful for some characters.

Also I think if there was recovery time on forward dashes where you couldn't block you'd nerf the shit out of pretty much anybody who can't airdash, especially against peacock.

Cancel forward dash into chicken block. It's not like you can block immediately out of air dash either.
 
Don't see the need for the change. Maybe we as a community need to learn how not die to mashed supers.

Also not too thrilled on losing lvl2 Sing xx Opera. Squigly has to commit her highly-valued P-Charge and meter to get it done and is one of her best tools versus zoning (and with the plane change it's not even guaranteed on Peacock) and approaches. I guess it's not as bad as it was before the lvl2 Sing fix, but it'll be in the mostly-worthless territory. Why spend charge + meter for some chip damage?
 
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Luweewu said:
Don't see the need for the change. Maybe we as a community need to learn how not die to mashed supers.

Also not too thrilled on losing lvl2 Sing xx Opera. Squigly has to commit her highly-valued P-Charge and meter to get it done and is one of her best tools versus zoning (and with the plane change it's not even guaranteed on Peacock) and approaches. I guess it's not as bad as it was before the lvl2 Sing fix, but it'll be in the mostly-worthless territory. Why spend charge + meter for some chip damage?

To be fair, a blocked Opera is like +60 frame advantage for Squigly, so even if they do block it, you get a mixup.
 
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iLoli said:
Isn't that just with "run" dashes?

Or is that all dashes?

Someone test that shit.

Cuz Bella/Filia don't got dat run dash.

I can confirm that you can block during a dash. Even with Painwheel's notoriously clunky forward dash you can mash forward all day at neutral and still block after the flash.
 
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Jason said:
To be fair, a blocked Opera is like +60 frame advantage for Squigly, so even if they do block it, you get a mixup.
If you can get close enough to do so since everyone just mashes pushblock. And with Squig's forward mobility it usually works.
 
Luweewu said:
Don't see the need for the change. Maybe we as a community need to learn how not die to mashed supers.

Also not too thrilled on losing lvl2 Sing xx Opera. Squigly has to commit her highly-valued P-Charge and meter to get it done and is one of her best tools versus zoning (and with the plane change it's not even guaranteed on Peacock) and approaches. I guess it's not as bad as it was before the lvl2 Sing fix, but it'll be in the mostly-worthless territory. Why spend charge + meter for some chip damage?
So because she used meter, she should get an unblockable?

This isn't guilty gear, I don't know where that frame of mind is coming from?

So because I used meter and an assist, I should get my US unblockable back?
 
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For meter and charge she gets a 0-frame super. Is that a big deal in this game? It costs more than other reversal supers and is more situational.
 
I think SBO is fine with this change. If you just throw that out randomly and hope for the best, I'd argue that you're using it wrong
It's a way to punish unsafe moves, of which I don't think "neglecting to hold back when you might as well have been" qualifies. If anything, this change encourages smarter use of it as opposed to mashing it out as soon as you see something move
(And her DP is fine)
 
Jason said:
I can confirm that you can block during a dash. Even with Painwheel's notoriously clunky forward dash you can mash forward all day at neutral and still block after the flash.

Damn shame. I like being able to block from neutral or forward walk, but I agree with Guitalex that it should definitely bop dashes.
 
I would like this change to stay implemented in beta for a while. I personally hate Frame 0 gunk.
 
EDIT: this is in response to iLoli.

It's not an unblockable; if you're holding back before she starts the sequence, you'll block it fine.

She can't do it on reaction to you moving forward if you move forward carefully in small movements (even if her reaction time was 0f, which it isn't, it still takes her longer to input it than it does for you to just input back), and it's perfectly baitable. If you don't just braindeadedly run forward, she has to guess. Is it good? Yeah, but even with it, Squigs is low tier, so who cares? It's interesting to play around, if you don't just think it's your right to always go ham.
 
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zeknife said:
I think SBO is fine with this change. If you just throw that out randomly and hope for the best, I'd argue that you're using it wrong
It's a way to punish unsafe moves, of which I don't think "neglecting to hold back when you might as well have been" qualifies. If anything, this change encourages smarter use of it as opposed to mashing it out as soon as you see something move
(And her DP is fine)
Mostly agreed except her DP is unusable garbage even with stance charged (still has vulnerable startup frames).
 
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zeknife said:
I think SBO is fine with this change. If you just throw that out randomly and hope for the best, I'd argue that you're using it wrong
It's a way to punish unsafe moves, of which I don't think "neglecting to hold back when you might as well have been" qualifies. If anything, this change encourages smarter use of it as opposed to mashing it out as soon as you see something move
(And her DP is fine)
If you weren't blocking why exactly should you be safe? You get bopped for not blocking just like any other situation. Moving forward is short bursts and chicken blocking make using Sing xx Opera a risky business for the Squig. If you don't do something like that, you are being unsafe and not respecting Squigly so you deserve your fate.

I agree her DP is fine even though it's not a true reversal. Just don't use it like it's Updo.
 
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Cynical said:
EDIT: this is in response to iLoli.

It's not an unblockable; if you're holding back before she starts the sequence, you'll block it fine.

She can't do it on reaction to you moving forward if you move forward carefully in small movements (even if her reaction time was 0f, which it isn't, it still takes her longer to input it than it does for you to just input back), and it's perfectly baitable. If you don't just braindeadedly run forward, she has to guess. Is it good? Yeah, but even with it, Squigs is low tier, so who cares? It's interesting to play around, if you don't just think it's your right to always go ham.
Unless it's been changed, can't you do sing>sbo>grave digger and if you haven't jumped after sbo, you're grass?
 
The SBO -> Daisy Pusher thing was removed several patches ago, unless you're referring to something I don't know about.
 
iLoli said:
Unless it's been changed, can't you do sing>sbo>grave digger and if you haven't jumped after sbo, you're grass?
Nope; doesn't catch pre-jump frames. A person can jump in place for days, and you'd never catch them with Daisy.
 
Coupla things:
- It is easy to have this not work during fwd dashes, which are the only dashes you can block out of, so walking = blocking but dashing fwd = hit. That doesn't change any mechanics of how dashes work anyway.
- Things COULD be left with zero-frame startup as exceptions, and I'm not sure what I think of Sing->SBO being completely unblockable anywhere onscreen. I don't mind it becoming a pressure tool instead of a you-got-hit-anywhere tool, myself.
and 3
- Overall I kinda don't like this change myself.
and 4
- I would be up for shortening some of the hitstop that's currently there.

@Dime_x
Nothing in SG goes as far or as fast while invincible during hitstop as Shoryureppa in ST, Rock's Lv3 rush in CvS2, or Brave Dance/Tyrant Rave/Hyper Tornado, XSF Berzerker Claw X (Sabretooth's) or Chun's super, etc.
 
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Mike_Z said:
- Things COULD be left with zero-frame startup as exceptions, and I'm not sure what I think of Sing->SBO being completely unblockable anywhere onscreen. I don't mind it becoming a pressure tool instead of a you-got-hit-anywhere tool, myself.
How is it any more unblockable than any other "hits on frame 1" move ever? I don't see people calling ST Ken's fierce Shoryu an unblockable.

Also, given that Encore is in a pretty good state right now, I'm against any balance or mechanics changes right now, other than adding new characters. IMO, keep main-game updates limited to new chars, purely cosmetic stuff, or bug fixes, until you're ready for a major revision (but do whatever in the beta, of course).
 
Mike_Z said:
Coupla things:
- It is easy to have this not work during fwd dashes, which are the only dashes you can block out of, so walking = blocking but dashing fwd = hit. That doesn't change any mechanics of how dashes work anyway.

Sounds fucking amazing then. <3
 
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Her DP is trash. Whether assist or point, it always goes through the "stance filter", which gives it extra startup compared to other DPs. EVEN AT Lv2, it has shitty startup. Also, the point of a DP is knockdown, which hers DOESN'T at Lv1. So, tell me, how is her DP "fine" when she's handicapped, compared to other DPs?
 
I'm not bummed about losing Opera as much because it makes it so it's perfect for punishing stupid decisions as opposed to punishing not blocking at full screen.

But her DP has the stance startup that is vulnerable. I know why (because then stance cancelling from it would be invincible too), but even with a charge the startup is vulnerable. I only use it on the mirror match and against PW.
 
The point of a DP is to be an anti-air. Lvl 1 and 2 Liver work fine as anti-airs. If the point was knockdown, where does that leave Fiber Upper assist (or every anti-air in MvC2 sans Psyblade)?

DP != Reversal even though in this game they are nearly synonymous.
 
Luweewu said:
The point of a DP is to be an anti-air. Lvl 1 and 2 Liver work fine as anti-airs. If the point was knockdown, where does that leave Fiber Upper assist (or every anti-air in MvC2 sans Psyblade)?

DP != Reversal even though in this game they are nearly synonymous.
Of course the problem is that those are also vulnerable. Startup, I mean.
 
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RetroStation said:
Her DP is trash. Whether assist or point, it always goes through the "stance filter", which gives it extra startup compared to other DPs. EVEN AT Lv2, it has shitty startup. Also, the point of a DP is knockdown, which hers DOESN'T at Lv1. So, tell me, how is her DP "fine" when she's handicapped, compared to other DPs?
I realize this isn't a thread about Squigly's DP (And I'm sure it's a subject that's been discussed to death in the past) but I can't resist voicing my opinion on this
Squigly is the antithesis of mashing, she's about precise timing and choosing the right tool for the situation. Her DP isn't a button to mash on wakeup or when you're getting combo'd, it's for when you anticipate an attack to counter it with
Vulnerable startup isn't a concern if you, you know, use the stances. Once you're in the stance, not only is it ambiguous as to what move you're going to use, you also effectively have less startup than conventional specials, since all you have to do is release the button, as opposed to inputting a quarter-circle or whatever

It's also good in combos I guess
 
I thought Liver Mortis is Squiggly's reversal?
 
Cynical said:
How is it any more unblockable than any other "hits on frame 1" move ever? I don't see people calling ST Ken's fierce Shoryu an unblockable.
"Do Sing anytime even at full-stage distance, look at opponent, if vulnerable do the appropriate super, if not don't" is very different from "up-close try a DP or an up-ball with no failsafe". It's even different from "do Tanden Renki and react appropriately".
And I thought only up-ball hit on 1f.

To shut up the DP discussion, allowing the DP-stance startup to be invincible but not letting you cancel the stance into anything except an actual DP for 30f or so is on the "to try" list.
Can we go back on-topic now?
 
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View619 said:
I thought Liver Mortis is Squiggly's reversal?

Its just as vulnerable as any of her other stance moves. None of the stance-pose startup has any invincibility which makes it a pretty terrible reversal.
 
@Mike_Z (And anyone else who reads my posts)

My primary dislike for hitstop was the fact that it hits dashes and jumps. I mean realistically it isnt going to hit neutral cause no one is neutraling with the joystick and same with walking forward... Its pretty rare to walk forward except for fine positioning on incoming mixups and after knockdowns.


The thing is, dash block os is a mechanic i personally fell in love with when i discovered that it was in sg... I dont know of any other games its been in so it seemed a wholly sg thing and i took it and ran with it.

Then when hitstop was implemented i saw it and i was like... Thats ok, I'll just dash block as a bait, or I'll just jump towards them and block as a bait... But i was getting hit by the supers... That pissed me off since it was doing exactly not what i wanted it to do. Its like doing a perfectly timed (if you were ryu) dp anti air and getting it stuffed. Well thats what it felt like to me... The move that i had used for so long to AUTOBLOCK attacks no longer being useable for that (specifically against supers) i mean looking at if from the position that i was i think its perfectly understandable. We were "sold" hitstop as a way to beat counter super stupidity... Which it did and is great. But it was never mentioned anywwhere as a specific nerf to dash block or even jump toward block os (which i also use quite a bit in many matchups) If its intended for that as well... Ok fine... I'm not happy but at least it no longer comes off as an unwanted side effect. There are lots of things that I'm not happy about in this and other games that i am forced to live with, so this will be nothing new. But it certainly feels better to think of this as purposeful design by someone smarter than me at balancing, than an unintended consequence of a fix in other places.

The thing is the dash block os is specific to dash characters it didnt work for run characters afaik from what i tested... I liked that dashes had this inbuilt strength into them as a form of balance (in my mind) for the fact that dashes couldnt run fullscreen.

It surprised the hell out of me, but my brain immediately put 2 and 2 together and said "well in streetfighter, dash block os would be stupid... But in a high speed airdasher this makes perfect sense"


And the thing is in sg, dash block/forward offensive chicken block os already has many in built in counters. Throw and airthrow, and high /low attacks which most of the cast is capable of. There is also the ability to call a lockdown assist where the opponent is dashing to and making them block that, then making them vulnerable to a mixup. It didnt seem op to me.


If it IS op, or simply isnt within the design parameters that the creator wants, so be it. But i mean id rather be told that than, have it come off as a fix that changes things in other places as well.


I mean why shouldnt you be able to dash block os a super when you can dash block os 8 frame normals?
That example that guitalex uses just seems like good play to me. If his opponent specifically wanted to beat his dash... Then throw or normal to put him in blockstun or high/low or assist call into mixup... Are all great counters.

Anyways thats just how i think. Im fine if hitstop goes back to the way it was pre this newest patch, even if it doesnt make much sense to me that one can dash block fast ass normals... But not supers.
 
Mike_Z said:
"Do Sing anytime even at full-stage distance, look at opponent, if vulnerable do the appropriate super, if not don't" is very different from "up-close try a DP or an up-ball with no failsafe". It's even different from "do Tanden Renki and react appropriately".
And I thought only up-ball hit on 1f.
Fierce shoryu and up-ball also don't require a full stance charge to use in the first place and a meter to actually hit with.

Squigly isn't even close to the game's best character, so I have no idea why people want to nerf anything about her.

(Also, NKI's frame data has both O and N Ken's fierce shoryu hitting on frame one. http://nki.combovideos.com/flame.html )
 
@Dime_x
If you're holding block before the superflash you can dash-block just fine...

@Cynical
I can't be reading that right...Lariat and SPD also zero frames? And air hurricanes?
 
Mike_Z said:
@Dime_x
If you're holding block before the superflash you can dash-block just fine...

@Cynical
I can't be reading that right...Lariat and SPD also zero frames? And air hurricanes?
I don't know about Lariat, but SPD was 0f. SO MEAN.
 
Cynical said:
Fierce shoryu and up-ball also don't require a full stance charge to use in the first place and a meter to actually hit with.

Squigly isn't even close to the game's best character, so I have no idea why people want to nerf anything about her.

I'd rather have a character with lots of good tools than one really powerful one, it makes the character rather boring. Just look at Zangief in SF4. I think the game would gain a lot from nerfing his ridiculous 1f command throw and redistributing some power to his other tools which are pretty clumsy, all things considered.

Now Squigly isn't anywhere near as one-dimensional as Zangief. Would nerfing one really annoying and extremely powerful tool in order to make her an overall more well-rounded character make playing with her AND against her more fun?

Possibly but if you go too far with this line of thinking you end up homogenizing your characters somewhat, or giving your character a laundry list of mediocre unsatisfying tools which makes them feel like they lack a clear focus for their playstyle, so there's a balance to be stuck somewhere.
 
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Air hurricane and SPD both have 0f startup.

SRK wiki and NKI disagree on lariat; SRK puts it at 1f, NKI has it at 0. Of course, in ST, 1f means "sometimes 0f" because of frameskip.

http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Zangief_(ST)
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Ken_(ST)

Edit:
Now Squigly isn't anywhere near as one-dimensional as Zangief. Would nerfing one really annoying and extremely powerful tool in order to make her an overall more well-rounded character make playing with her AND against her more fun?
Even if that does end up being the case (which I don't necessarily agree with), now isn't the time to implement it IMO. Let Encore ride until it's time for the next "major" update (by major, I mean like Capcom "Super to AE " level update).
 
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Jason said:
Now Squigly isn't anywhere near as one-dimensional as Zangief. Would nerfing one really annoying and extremely powerful tool in order to make her an overall more well-rounded character make playing with her AND against her more fun?

Certainly, but right now she loses the super battle opera off sing, and doesn't gain anything.
 
guitalex2007 said:
Of course the problem is that those are also vulnerable. Startup, I mean.
Not the most recommended idea, but holding charge (already went through stance frames) makes them invincible frame 1.

Or you could just time it so that you go though the stance frames before your opponent is likely to attack.

Anyway,
Jason said:
Now Squigly isn't anywhere near as one-dimensional as Zangief. Would nerfing one really annoying and extremely powerful tool in order to make her an overall more well-rounded character make playing with her AND against her more fun?
I don't see how getting rid of Sing xx Opera makes Squigly any more fun for anyone besides people that don't like Sing xx Opera. Although it is a big part of many Squigly player's arsenal, it's not something anyone solely relies on as it's costly to do and situational. And I don't believe that it's existence is somehow overshadowing any of Squigly's other tools or holding back some Squig tech renaissance.

As far as I could see this just makes her game weaker.

Mike_Z said:
"Do Sing anytime even at full-stage distance, look at opponent, if vulnerable do the appropriate super, if not don't"
If you don't do super you open yourself up to be punished for the Sing. It's not like it's risk-free.
 
Luweewu said:
I don't see how getting rid of Sing xx Opera makes Squigly any more fun for anyone besides people that don't like Sing xx Opera.

Its not really fun to play against, really.

No, it doesn't make Squigly's game play more fun for the squigly player but my reasoning was, if you take away this, you can give her some power in her kit somewhere else.

Anyway, this is all experimental.
 
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