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Blocking after super flash

CaioLugon said:
It's poop
You learn to not use it as a reversal very quickly. Good in combos, though.
 
The problem with her dp is this isnt the thread to talk about it. Take it elsewhere please.
 
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So far the beta change feels fairer. If I get hit by a reversal super it was because I was attacking. In release I would sometimes just get hit for trying to bait the wrong way, like trying to jump back from half a screen away against a filia.
 
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Mr. X said:
The problem with her dp is this isnt the thread to talk about it. Take it elsewhere please.


??? This thread is beta gameplay discussion. So how is it ot? I mean if it's Ot then anything character specific in here is Ot, and it would seem hard to keep the 2 separate.


I'm not the one that merged mikes original thread or changed the title to this one. It seemed on topic because this is a general thread.
 
Dime_x said:
??? This thread is beta gameplay discussion. So how is it ot? I mean if it's Ot then anything character specific in here is Ot, and it would seem hard to keep the 2 separate.


I'm not the one that merged mikes original thread or changed the title to this one. It seemed on topic because this is a general thread.
Thread title: Blocking after super flash

Sing xx sbo is on topic since it is a thing affected of this change.
Her DP isn't and it has came up several times already.
 
@Dime_x from my post about 2 pages back
Mike_Z said:
To shut up the DP discussion, allowing the DP-stance startup to be invincible but not letting you cancel the stance into anything except an actual DP for 30f or so is on the "to try" list.
Can we go back on-topic now?
Now who doesn't read? :^) Drop it. It is off topic.
 
I think I'd be more for hitstop being up until the first frame over "can block, but can't counter."
 
Mr. X said:
Thread title: Blocking after super flash

Sing xx sbo is on topic since it is a thing affected of this change.
Her DP isn't and it has came up several times already.


Thats my bad then, sorry, could have sworn that this thread name got changed. Had i realized that this was still the superflash blocking thread i wouldnt have posted that here.
 
guitalex2007 said:
You learn to not use it as a reversal very quickly. Good in combos, though.

Its not really all that useful in combos, really. Her other moves do more damage and give you basically the same combo options.
 
Jason said:
Its not really all that useful in combos, really. Her other moves do more damage and give you basically the same combo options.
It's actually not bad of a combo finisher if you want to put them fullscreen without using meter. And by comboing into it, not that Liver Mortis uncharged from Silver Chord thing. For example in situations where you hitconfirm from Silver Chord.
 
Chord xx Liver doesn't work at max undizzy so you'll be better off doing DP instead if it could reach. The only reason I've seen people like JasonD get away with it was because the opponent didn't burst. We really should just talk about this in another thread.

-

Anyway, I'm not too thrilled with the idea of being in a non-block non-attack state and, because there's a flash, still be able to block an otherwise unblockable attack. I do see the value in making reversal supers less braindead, but I believe it is more of a community issue than a system issue. I would think the playerbase would develop countermeasures unless it's literally that good versus other options like long combos were to short combos pre-Encore. I'm not of the belief they are that good.
 
hey can we parry after super flash or is that just never going to happen?
 
DeathArcana said:
hey can we parry after super flash or is that just never going to happen?
Going our on a limb saying no, but @Mike_Z may have something to say about this.
 
DeathArcana said:
hey can we parry after super flash or is that just never going to happen?
Nope, never. Unless Big Band was 0-10 vs everyone, and even then probably still no.
If you need to know reason why then go play the SF Alpha Anthology, wherein they gave one of the Shadowloo-isms the ability to parry, and messed up allowing you to parry post-flash.
It is BEYOND broken.
(Or I guess Heroes and Heralds but that lets you parry in hitstun too so that's not as good an example...)
 
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So come Tuesday, I still have to hold eating EKG for backdashing, or?
 
Come Tuesday on PS3 it is...January 24th all over again.
None of this applies outside beta (for now) anyway.
 
From fighting games I played before, I learned that's everything is reactable unless is a poke. And mostly you pay only for your errors. And SG's "superflashes" felt like "punishment for nothing" for me, you don't need to go for counter or secure super with a chain to get hit. "Guess when you should to block" (just standing idle on the ground!) is "a little" harder then "guess where you should to superflash" (especially if you mashing it to escape from combo or reset). So I really liked this change.

My a little late two cents.
 
Avil said:
From fighting games I played before, I learned that's everything is reactable unless is a poke.
Which fighting game did you play exactly, where everything that isn't a poke has 20f+ startup?
 
IsaVulpes said:
Which fighting game did you play exactly, where everything that isn't a poke has 20f+ startup?
Not sure about "20f+", but for sure you can react on everything from "stand idle" (excluding pokes) in Guilty Gear and Blazblue.

For example, in Blazblue most easy throw escape, and it has 13f to react (for normal, +6f blockstun throw, which only very slow can't react to). Or in BB just different "frame rate"?
 
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The reason you never see throws land in BlazBlue is because teching is option selectable. You can't tech yellow throws on reaction.

(Oh, and there's a throw startup of 7 frames in that game, so purple throw actually has 20f to react, and yellow throw has 13f.)

EDIT: wait, everything is reactable in Guilty Gear?!?! WTF, throws in that game are 0f and Millia's oki mixup is famous for the fact that it can't be reacted to (I wish that "can you react to Millia's mixup" app was still on the internet; spoiler, the answer is "no").
 
Woah, it does still exist! Awesome!

(Also, holy crap that 6k is invisible; I need 6 more frames to react to it than I do the TK Bad Moon. And, looking at the frame data, I can't block either one.)
 
The milia blocker flash/test thing only tests pure recognition reaction, though (as opposed to twitch reaction which is much faster than recognition).
It's used a lot to make the point that most people can't do recognition reaction under 18 frames (at best).

In an actual match, however, there are many other ways to determine how, when, and where a person will mix you up, making it seem like human recognition reaction time is less than the actual time.

Over the course of several tests in a row, with many failed attempts, my average pure recognition reaction time is about 22-24f, so a lot of my blocking comes from seeing the person's patterns and behaviours and reacting accordingly in advance.

And just to keep this on topic, this is why I feel like hitstop shouldn't allow you to block post-flash at point blank the way it works right now in the beta because if you go in training mode and turn off superflash, you really have no time to react to supers.

This change determines whether we want supers to play as closely to as how they'd normally act without flash or if we want to make supers a weird exception just because they have flash.

Again, I have grown fond of the former.
 
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The thing with saying that you can't react without the flash is that it's not as though hitstop is supposed to be a perfect opposite compensation for the weakness created by super flash. You can't react to a flashless diamond dynamo 100% of the time from one pixel out of 8-frame hitstop range, but with flash + hitstop you can. It's really just a separate buff for supers to make them more useful in neutral and other situations where you aren't using them on someone in some kind of stun or cancel lockout, so really anything about it is fair game.
 
Hitstop emulates the actual start-up of a super, yes, and I know it's not supposed to be a 100% form of compensation.

I'm still against empowering random super being able to catch you from half screen or longer, but I think supers being a viable reversal option up close is important because it gives characters that don't otherwise have a reliable reversal option a way to try and get out.

This is why I'm in favour of "put hitstop up to the first active frame" should anything change at all.

Personally, I'm comfortable with the way hitstop is now, but I'm interested in trying out "hitstop only up to first active frame" in the beta.
 
Cynical said:
The reason you never see throws land in BlazBlue is because teching is option selectable. You can't tech yellow throws on reaction.

(Oh, and there's a throw startup of 7 frames in that game, so purple throw actually has 20f to react, and yellow throw has 13f.)

EDIT: wait, everything is reactable in Guilty Gear?!?! WTF, throws in that game are 0f and Millia's oki mixup is famous for the fact that it can't be reacted to (I wish that "can you react to Millia's mixup" app was still on the internet; spoiler, the answer is "no").
Wait, yellow? Maybe green (normal) one? It is reactable, is just really easy to recognize it (green exclamation mark - finger pressing trigger by reflex). Even on my average level I and most of my opponents could react to at last 50% of throws. To purple (two marks) you have 13+6f to react.
Also I said "unless is a poke". Most of Millia's (and Chipp) moves are 6+-2f, is a speed of average poke, it's obvious you can't react to their mixups.
Anyway, I didn't play it almost 4 years already, maybe I just forgot the feelings.
 
Again, I really disagree with hitstop being reduced to the first active frame.

If Filia whiffs a s.HP at further away than point blank, I want to be able to whiff punish with Super Sonic Jazz without Filia being able to just do a reaction super and beat it. That doesn't mean it needs a million years of hitstop but it should have enough to move forward for a few frames before your opponent can react.

Avil said:
Wait, yellow? Maybe green (normal) one? It is reactable, is just really easy to recognize it (green exclamation mark - finger pressing trigger by reflex). Even on my average level I and most of my opponents could react to at last 50% of throws. To purple (two marks) you have 13+6f to react.
Also I said "unless is a poke". Most of Millia's (and Chipp) moves are 6+-2f, is a speed of average poke, it's obvious you can't react to their mixups.
Anyway, I didn't play it almost 4 years already, maybe I just forgot the feelings.

I suggest you give Milia Blocker (posted above) a try.
 
A THING EVERYONE IS IGNORING WHEN COMPARING SG TO GG/BB/etc (games that are not in the Versus series) is that in SG you can cancel WHIFFED attacks. In GG if you commit to a punch, even by 1f, and they super you, you are stuck in that attack and get hit. In SG if you are allowed to move, you can counterattack with a special/super anyway.

Avil said:
From fighting games I played before, I learned that's everything is reactable unless is a poke.
1 -Not sure what your definition of "poke" is, but if you think you are reacting to moves like Sol's DP or Bandit Revolver in GG, you're probably wrong. You can test yourself whether you are reacting or anticipating, even if you are allergic to trying the Millia Blocker. Have a friend sit with you in training mode, walk forward at the character and have him randomly do the attack at varying distances - that's the key. You will probably block less than 1/4 of them. A lot of things you think are reaction are really anticipation based on hidden cues like the fact that Sol players know the range of his attacks and will use them at good ranges, so you are really anticipating the attack because you also know the range. This is a common mistake.
2 - Ino's ground super, two of Jam's supers, Bridget's explosion, Dizzy's Imperial Ray, May's whale (close), Anji's super stomp, HOS's Lv2 Savage Fang, Chipp's rush, Slayer's Dead on Time, and Venom's Red Hail are all unblockable after the flash in GGAC. So I dunno where you learned that in the first place. GG is one of the games with the fewest supers that are unblockable-post-flash, and some characters have none, but there are still lots of them. If you look at older Capcom games they are almost all that way. BB has superflash buffering, and should have MORE supers that are unblockable post-flash.
3 - Play in training mode with "Skip Superflashes" on. That's what hitstop does, it makes the superflash aesthetic only.

Jason said:
Again, I really disagree with hitstop being reduced to the first active frame.
If Filia whiffs a s.HP at further away than point blank, I want to be able to whiff punish with Super Sonic Jazz without Filia being able to just do a reaction super and beat it.
Do note that the first active frame is not the same as the first frame after the superflash.
If I went with something like "Lv1s get 1f of active overlapping hitstop, air supers get 0f active overlapping hitstop, Lv3s/Lv5s get 3f, and Sing-Opera is postflash-blockable but not reactable as in the current beta", then:
SSJ moves forward for 7f before becoming active, so it actually wouldn't change at all!
Ground Gregor would lose 5f, air would lose 3f, Fenrir would lose 8f (whoa), ground EKG would lose 3f, air EKG would lose 1f, ground CSF would lose 8f, Feral would lose 1f, Dynamo would lose 3f, etc.
Death Crawl and Buer would also remain unchanged.

This is probably the next experiment, btw, because upon further analysis I don't really like the fact that you can block everything, and I don't like making exceptions to that either.

And everyone would STILL get bopped up close and complain.
 
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This probably goes without saying since you probably test for this (I hope), but you should check how that effects stuff like Excellebella/copter > DD from working.
 
IsaVulpes said:
Most of my blocking comes from anticipating on reaction.
My blocking comes from hooking a rubberband to my stick.
It's also why I prefer the P1 side #SekritsExposed
 
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