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Excellabella meter gain never scales and unblockables

WarpedEcho

WarpedEcho

lol, lmao
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Warped Echo
Painwheel Robo Fortune Eliza
Even if you hit a dead body, or are at max scaling, or as an assist. This is so dumb. Also, excellabella unblockables with command throw (fukua) still exist. The only way out is reversaling with a proper invincible move (character dependent) or special canceling your jump start. Which is super difficult because the opponent can just alter the unblockable timing. @Mike_Z
 
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so this is just an observation but can't m a train do the same thing as excelabella in this setup
 
WarpedEcho said:
This is so dumb.
Starting off with a wonderful tone.

Meter on all throws doesn't scale, period. The parts of throws that are hits (Buer, end of Double's airthrow, end of Excellabella) scale, but things while the opponent is thrown do not.
I sort of agree vs corpses, but nothing suffers a meter gain penalty when used as an assist...

And no, true unblockables (or even single-frame humanly-unblockable things like Eddie's) don't exist with command throws. Hard-to-escape setups yes, but that's not the same thing - there's no situation where you REQUIRE an invincible reversal or superhuman speed to escape. You just don't get to escape by doing the same thing in all cases.
I'm not gonna explain it in-depth again, but basically: If any throw whiffs through your jump startup, you are granted protection to block any while-rising attack after jumping. The protection lasts longer than everyone's fastest air attack. So either you are protected, or you can poke the person doing the command grab, or you can poke the air-throwing character.
If you were airborne before the throw went active, as opposed to in jump startup, you do not get the protection. So simply holding up-back with no timing will likely get you snagged, yes. But it does not require a jump-cancelled special move.

I might consider making this protection more lenient, but I thoroughly tested and it works in all cases that are currently in the game where poking out is not possible.

And every character does have a way to escape that is not jump-cancelled ground specials or jumping, even if there were no protection. Some require meter, but most do not. Robo has M Danger, Eliza has air super, etc.

Regardless of whether I agreed about there being a problem or not, nothing's getting changed for release at this point, so either way my suggestion is to learn how to either deal with it or mitigate the effects.
If you get grabbed by the assist, the setup is not repeatable tightly because they can't call the assist again until you recover from hitstun. As well, the followup combo is scaled extra. Plus, they are sacrificing H LnL or L Beat Extend or H Brass or whatever for the setup.
If they are doing it to you when you're falling (for example, Fukua c.MP->c.HK whiff, command throw), every character has a way to change their air momentum and delay their landing so that there is no consistent way to set up a meaty command grab vs their landing, which means there is no consistent way to set up this setup either.
 
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Could you not just tag out of the setup as well?
 
Lex said:
Could you not just tag out of the setup as well?
You can, but in the case of Fukua c.MP c.HK xx command grab + Excellabella assist, you only have 1 frame to input the tag (or any other reversal).

e: I hadn't considered this until just now, but I wonder if the reason the unblockable protection doesn't work for the above setup is because you recover in the air. If I double jump I'm allowed to block Excellabella, which is why I'm wondering.
 
Thank you for the response. The thing that got me the most tight was the dead body thing. I saw it at TSB and was not happy about it. Sorry for the tone, and extra thank you for the analysis of the setup.
 
So this is just another observation/question characters that do not have a double jump (parasoul/Filia/Beowulf) I can't think of any way to be granted protection unless your mashing on a invincible move like updo,pilar, or chair toss. Filia can't back dash in the air away from Bella beo can't wolf blitzer away and parasoul can't double jump so this forces these characters to master this so called one frame window. Now I'm not gonna sit here and bitch cause that won't get anything done but it does seem a bit unfair for these 3 characters especially parasoul where you can not mash pillar and j.hk which normally decreases fall speed will lead to a fast fall in this situation. If I'm missing something I would love to know so I can learn how to beat this setup
 
Pretty sure the characters without double jumps just get bodied by Sage's setup.
 
so just figured out how to beat it and it's no where near as unblock able as I was first led on to believe. Double beats it by teacup, Filia beats it by j.lk, and Fukua beats it by j.lk or j.lp and every one else I don't care to test but it's not unblock able nor is it impossible to react to and considering the fact that there are really no burst baits off this setup you can mash to your hearts content and not get baited so I'm fine with this setup learn to punish it and it's not safe and leads to a full combo
 
You get 8f of protection it seems.

Also did speeding up a train have something to do with unblockable set ups?
There was a patch note where it was sped up a bit but I dunno if that was a buff or a fix that is also a buff.
 
mcpeanuts said:
Pretty sure the characters without double jumps just get bodied by Sage's setup.
I don't understand this.
Unless my setup is wrong, I am not able to double jump and block excellabella with any double jump character.
If my assist call is really tight, the protection kicks in and I get the block on a normal jump off the ground, but a double jump just makes me get grabbed.
And, if the assist call is just a little bit later, I don't get the protection, nor does double jump save me.
How are you getting the block off a double jump?
 
Grunt said:
I don't understand this.
Unless my setup is wrong, I am not able to double jump and block excellabella with any double jump character.
If my assist call is really tight, the protection kicks in and I get the block on a normal jump off the ground, but a double jump just makes me get grabbed.
And, if the assist call is just a little bit later, I don't get the protection, nor does double jump save me.
How are you getting the block off a double jump?
You have to double jump before you touch the ground. You don't like land jump then double jump.
 
Pretty sure that's what I'm doing.
I made a video of me trying things, but idk maybe I'm doing it wrong?
 
You have to jump on the floor to regain a double jump. If you double jump then land and get hit you can't double jump out of a reset. Make sure you have refreshed your double jumps before you save your state.
 
there is a three frame window to do the jump. You can also do j.lp on the way down to beat it.
 
Skarmand said:
You have to jump on the floor to regain a double jump. If you double jump then land and get hit you can't double jump out of a reset. Make sure you have refreshed your double jumps before you save your state.
I get the double jump, I just get caught by Excellabella.
 
Grunt said:
I get the double jump, I just get caught by Excellabella.
Okay. I was only talking about why it may have not been jumping though.
Idk about the setup.
 
Grunt said:
Pretty sure that's what I'm doing.
I made a video of me trying things, but idk maybe I'm doing it wrong?
I never tried double jumping backwards, I neutral jumped and then held back. No idea why that would have anything to do with it but who knows.
 
I'm thinking that because your not upbacking out your getting put into aerial preblock? so what might happen is that the preblock does not exist in neutral jump? but really the best way to beat the setup is to just mash on the fastest air normal you have and get a full combo off it. It's pretty punishable and as I said before there are not baits off the setup so as soon as you see c.hk just start mashing and you should not get hit
 
I'm getting the same result neutral jumping and forward jumping to holding back.
joshb911 said:
but really the best way to beat the setup is to just mash on the fastest air normal you have and get a full combo off it.
I can't get Peacock's j.lp to come out before landing, but The last thing from my video was airdash into j.mp which stalls enough to dodge Fukua's throw and lands fast enough to dodge Excellabella. Airdash j.lp dodges too. She also just has lp Bang, but that's not cool enough and is probably harder, but idk.
EDIT: Backwards airdash j.mk(and mp actually) is reeeeeeeally easy.
 
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ON topic

WarpedEcho said:
Thank you for the response. The thing that got me the most tight was the dead body thing. I saw it at TSB and was not happy about it. Sorry for the tone, and extra thank you for the analysis of the setup.
Just to say it, I've been doing Excella and A-Train on dead characters for 2+ years now for this exact reason, on stream...so...yeah. It doesn't honestly bother me that much. :^P

OFF topic

About the c.MP->slide setup...every character has moves that delay their fall speed, exactly for stuff like this.
The deal is, if the setup is done in such a way that Fukua will catch you if you fall at regular speed, if you delay your fall the command throw will whiff and you get a full punish. If they do it in such a way that it will catch you falling slowly, if you don't fall slowly you can poke them before the throw. It's still a guess but it is never guaranteed and Fukua has to mess with her own timing. In either case, they can't make it completely tight for both reactions with the same timing.
As well, most air normals for most characters will delay your landing by 4-7 frames vs regularly landing, because your Point can fall below the floor. Parasoul doing j.LK startup is enough to throw off the setup completely.
To float, Peacock can j.MK, Parasoul can tear toss, Eliza can j.HP startup, etc etc. All these things throw off the setup enough that Fukua also has to have guessed what you'll do, and they let you land fast enough to block a drill.
As well, even if the setup is perfectly tight, everyone except Eliza has a throw-invincible ground reversal, metered or not, and Eliza has TK air super.

Please PLEASE stop complaining about things without doing any research. "It hits me often OMG" is not the same as "it is guaranteed". Eddie's triple unblockable is guaranteed, nothing in SG is even close to that.
 
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Dealing with this setup is the kind of thing that's above my level, and always will be. Thing is, most people fall into that category with this. Nobody's beating this setup right now. I watch sage hit great players with this trick a dozen times in a row before they get lucky and he misses the timing, allowing for a reversal. The only person I've seen even come close to dealing with this on a skill (read: not just hoping and mashing) basis is SonicFox, and he has the benefit of playing regular FTmillion sets with sage.

If the trick to beating this is playing 250+ matches against sage, and THEN you'll start to be able to react, that's a pretty fucking good setup, lol. It reminds me a bit of something I learned in the military about how to mitigate incoming fire while in a convoy ambush situation; the final word after the long explanation of how to take cover was, "hope that God has a long-term plan for you."

So I guess my point is: have you guys heard about this idea for a possible last balance patch? ;)
 
I don't really think it needs to be patched... its just a mix up. If you don't want me to loop it you either take the excellebella or make the right read and time your reversal/attack accordingly. That's nothing different than the other five million set ups in this game.
 
I actually almost got out of the setup at TSB but I didn't take the side switch into consideration and got Cymbals instead of Timpani gdi
 
mcpeanuts said:
I actually almost got out of the setup at TSB but I didn't take the side switch into consideration and got Cymbals instead of Timpani gdi

and had you gotten timpani I would have gotten happy birthday'd and then potentially double snapped. It comes with that risk too.
 
I don't see the problem if it's avoidable it actually sounds like a risky mixup considering peanuts didn't get his punish only because of the side switch
 
mcpeanuts said:
I actually almost got out of the setup at TSB but I didn't take the side switch into consideration and got Cymbals instead of Timpani gdi
dekillsage said:
and had you gotten timpani I would have gotten happy birthday'd and then potentially double snapped. It comes with that risk too.
Chuck N. Plazma said:
I don't see the problem if it's avoidable it actually sounds like a risky mixup considering peanuts didn't get his punish only because of the side switch
I mean, it's definitely not, "unblockable," and it's definitely punishable, but until I start seeing it get beat more than one out of every dozen times, let's not call this setup risky, folks. If we're saying that it can be sometimes super'd out of, it's no riskier than any other reset.
 
Kai said:
I mean, it's definitely not, "unblockable," and it's definitely punishable, but until I start seeing it get beat more than one out of every dozen times, let's not call this setup risky, folks. If we're saying that it can be sometimes super'd out of, it's no riskier than any other reset.

Okay so if its not riskier than any other reset what's the problem? That's not even true anyways. If the set up doesn't work my opponent hits both my characters. How is that not risky? What about Eliza's St.mp on the opponents incoming? You know the set up where you have to guess based on her timing and requires you to jump twice making it a super complicated and difficult punish? But can also be mixed up with air throw at any time? But yeah the set up where if my opponent guesses right they kill one or both of my characters isn't risky enough and is a problem.

If you're waiting for people to start avoiding it properly to change your mind don't waste your time. I haven't changed my mix ups in 7 months, have fun waiting.
 
SG players still aren't reacting to Fukua Inevitable Snuggle, it'll be years before anyone can get out of this setup consistently
 
So I went into training mode and looked for ways out of the set-up and everyone except BB, Double, and Beo can full combo punish it without meter. BB and Double have to spend meter and beo can't get out at all. I'm not sure if I did it right so I did it with different timings to make sure. These are all the ways characters can get out the set-up

Filia-M or H hairball and air dash j.hp(depending on the timing filia will counter hit fukua or fall and have the grab whiff)
Bella- Mash j.lp (it's kinda hard but works)
Peacock- air backdash j.mk( peacock falls and the grab whiffs)
Parasoul- air tear toss
Fortune- air El gato
Painwheel- air H buer
Valentine- L Bypass and air dash j.hp(same rules as filia)
Double- Barrel into Beast of Gehenna
Squigly-mash J.lk(INCREDIBLY easy)
BB- Timpani
Eliza- air dash j.hp (same rules as peacock)
Beo- Nothing
Fukua- double jump backwards j.hk (counter hits both fukua and the assist)
Robo- mash J.hp (hard but works)
 
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I was gonna test filia j.hk when I got home, does it push her up enough that excellebella hits?
 
Pickles said:
I was gonna test filia j.hk when I got home, does it push her up enough that excellebella hits?
It hits Bella but doesn't hit fukua so she can do whatever she wants.
 
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dekillsage said:
Okay so if its not riskier than any other reset what's the problem? That's not even true anyways. If the set up doesn't work my opponent hits both my characters. How is that not risky? What about Eliza's St.mp on the opponents incoming? You know the set up where you have to guess based on her timing and requires you to jump twice making it a super complicated and difficult punish? But can also be mixed up with air throw at any time? But yeah the set up where if my opponent guesses right they kill one or both of my characters isn't risky enough and is a problem.
Except you can just guess correctly on "left or right" and block the Eliza mixup, instead of having to hit a button at an unintuitive time to make a visually imperceptable change in your falling speed to avoid taking damage.
 
dekillsage said:
What about Eliza's St.mp on the opponents incoming?
maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan 2 wrongs don't make a right lol

that incoming setup is bonkers, too, and I hate it

I don't get it, but that's kinda the thing. I'm just gonna chalk this up to me not being good enough at SG to understand the consensus. Wouldn't be the first time! :P
 
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