Feedback/Suggestions needed for improving AI in Skullgirls

[earlfriend]

Hey all!

We are looking to make some general improvements to the AI in the game and we'd like to get some feedback from the community about what should be changed or how it could be improved. ANY CHARACTER is fair game, but we have limited time and resources to do this, so we're probably not going to be able to do everything that gets suggested here. Go for the big wins!

Also please feel free to post any AI bugs that are still in the game! We'll see if we can address them.

We are open to new ideas, and we have a few of our own already, but please try to keep your feedback constructive.

Some of the general improvements we already have in mind:

• Have the AI use more of the game's mechanics - PBGC, Alpha counters, DHCs
• Have the AI use more standard/longer combos with each character
• Have the AI protect near-dead characters on its team with more effective use of tagging out/DHC-ing

To be clear, NONE of these things are guaranteed, but we'd like to know what kind of improvements people would most like to see.

Please keep in mind that many competitive players COULD NOT CARE LESS about playing against the AI and vice versa for non-competitive players, so let's not turn this into a "if you really wanna git gud go fight a real person" argument.

 

[CaioLugon]

make bigband block

 

[Muro]

At the moment, nightmare AI appears to tech (nearly?) all throws. It teaches players that going for a throw is never a good idea, which is not true.

 

[Raging_Zoroark]

make bigband parry everything

Fixed.

Jokes aside, I would like to see AI behave more like human players, like not blocking every mixup I do, while falling for the same armored move over and over again.

 

[St. Dorothy Kitty]

-Make Big Band block (and make use of his parry)
-Make Eliza block
-Have Nightmare mode be more difficult

 

[Muro]

At the moment, nightmare AI appears to tech (nearly?) all throws. It teaches players that going for a throw is never a good idea, which is not true.

Also, on the other side of the spectrum, AI is completely free to command grabs, even on nightmare. All a Cerebella player has to do to kill a character is one successful merry-go-rilla. After that it's just a matter of doing merry-go-rilla over and over. AI will fall for it every time, no jump, no reversal, no ground tech, nothing.

Speaking of groud tech, does the AI do that at all? From my tests it never does for anything, except specifically for sweeps where it ground techs every single one of them.

EDIT: Earlier post + this one, I guess my suggestion would be to add some randomness to the AI. Simulate human creativity and inclination to make errors every now and then, as opposed to solid "never do this/always do this" rules of a machine.

 

[gllt]

Here's an AI bug that I'm not sure if it has been fixed yet, I'm going to copy it from a private message I sent to Mike, but fixing AI bugs is improving AI, yes?

"Hey, I was goofing around in training mode vs CPU when this happened. Decided to switch to a PW team vs randoms, got in the match... noticed Big Band does nothing when I Fly.

@24m19s and onward."

 

[EA575]

At the moment, nightmare AI appears to tech (nearly?) all throws. It teaches players that going for a throw is never a good idea, which is not true.

So much this.

 

[WrestlerGuile]

I think Nightmare AI mode should do at least one devastating combo for each weight class, similar to how top players do their combos, and the AI should have minor pattern changes for when they're fighting.
(Also, NERF MARIE...jk)

 

[Karlaaldana]

I know this might sound like a crazy proposition.. this is the result of not knowing how the IA system works.. but here it goes:

Have the IA learn your combo structures, make them analyze what attacks are being used to properly counter hit them. (this might be possible if you implement some sort of variation on the playback memory system of the training mode).
Make the IA learn from your combos passively, using a variation on the playback feature you could write all actions taken on the match, combos would be highlited and then recorded on a text file, users would be able to train the IA by selecting the combos that are fitting to agiven difficulty setting (with some sort of menu on training mode), this menu could also be used to highlight combos with burst bait opportunities or even resets. This way we could all train specific characters and then submit the text file with our info.
Later..The IA can read that data and make decisions on how to make variations on those exact same combos. that same info can be used to improove the IA, by making character specific data.

 

[Dinglejet]

If the ai on nightmare could be more offensive, that'd be nice, because right now they usually just downback against me and not punish anything, even if it's super duper unsafe

 

[earlfriend]

I totally love the idea of an AI that actually learns, but that is very likely beyond the scope of a mere improvement pass on what we currently have. :(

Thanks for the feedback so far, everyone! This is all helpful!

 

[Zidiane]

Give the AI a rare chance of doing swag combos if it lands a clean hit. Like, Nightmare Cerebella AI has a 5% chance after landing a certain starter to do a 4 horn combo.

 

[JinKazama'94]

I totally love the idea of an AI that actually learns, but that is very likely beyond the scope of a mere improvement pass on what we currently have. :(

Thanks for the feedback so far, everyone! This is all helpful!

Were not making Amiibo's for Skullgirls guys.

But the sound of a Squigly Amiibo wished there were.

 

[Flotilla]

At the moment, nightmare AI appears to tech (nearly?) all throws. It teaches players that going for a throw is never a good idea, which is not true.

THIS. This is so disgustingly unrealistic. I am not sure how a problem like this could even be tackled, but please try to.

As for personal preferences, how about...

• Fix the bug where running under a character during their jump and continuing to run the opposite direction causes their AI to screw up very badly!
• Give the AI a chance to attempt to chip you out with specials/supers if your health < the amount of chip damage their supers/specials can do.
• Give Peacock/Big Band/Eliza/Beowulf/R-Fortune a small chance of doing taunt after a character of yours gets KO'd. This would enable their taunt abilities to be seen (KO, do a safe taunt during your incoming) and add a bit of salt into the equation.
• Make characters use a much larger amount of their moveset than they did before? Some examples would be:
• Make Big Band use A-Train (outside of the one c.HP > A-Train > SSJ combo he does), L/M Brass, cymbals, timpani, beat extend, taunt on hard knockdowns, parry projectiles with some reliability (maybe have it so the longer a projectile is out on the field, the more likely he is to parry it?). So much of his moveset is just flat out unused! Brownie points if you can make him use these moves at smart times, such as A-Train when the opponent is upbacking a ton, L/M Brass from a closer distance (he currently loves to use H Brass AND NO OTHER STRENGTH regardless of spacing, which is kinda stupid), cymbals as a simple mixup after j.LK (AKA, alternating between j.LK > s/c.LK and j.LK > cymbals), etc. Also, if you want to go for the real Big Band Experience™, give him a chance to do SSJ after a PBGC.
• Make Double use Monster!, j.HP in neutral, and press buttons more often when she does catheads. At the moment, she really doesn't even make use of it despite being scripted to do the super fairly often. Finally, make Double do something other than luger > car from distances beyond halfscreen. Seriously, this is just about ALL SHE DOES. Make her more aggressive from a distance, make her try to rush you down at least a little!
• Make Squigly make use of sing > SBO. At fullscreen she has a bad tendency to do nothing but charge and tremolo/silver chord, either make her more aggressive or allow her to do sing from that distance so she can get herself in there?
• Make Peacock have a small chance of doing M/H teleport after throwing out bombs. I would say "make her teleport once bomb is X distance away from opponent", but that's probably too complex. Give her a greater chance of holding item drop if she has tenrai-ha prepared.
• Make Eliza use Sekhmet...
• If the current beta changes stay, make Painwheel use H Buer from up close if you're doing a lot of upbacking. I'd also say "find a way to fit pinion dash in there somewhere", but I don't play Painwheel so I don't want to shoehorn in things iunno about. :p
• Make Valentine take into account how you have to hold P to decide whether or not you get dead cross or needle, and use that info accordingly. Also, maybe let her combos make use of new bypass?
• Make Cerebella use LNL more often, her AI rarely uses it. Give her a small chance to cancel run/LNL into showstopper at the appropriate distances.

Spoiler

When 5 meter is available, give Big Band a very small chance to cancel into Satchmo Solo during a combo and play a song.

 

[Dime]

To parrot what others have said as well as add my own suggestions:

Ai only techs about half the techable throws, instead of all of them all of the time.
Filia stops blocking everything.
Bigband and other charcters that never block, learn to block.
Less than 5 frame reset being not guaranteed (fast resets are basically guaranteed against the computer... ESPECIALLY painwheel fly resets... The computer eats those like its its job.


The computer moves a bit more like a human... As it is now, the computer much of the time just does what you do, it moves backward if you move backward and it moves forward if you move forward...

The computer uses more aerial poke moves in general, in order to stay safer in its offense, while also throwing out empty jump fakes so it isnt easily able to be AA'd on reaction everytime.


The computer learns to punish unsafe moves on block and wiff.

The computer picks assists that are actually good at the tournament level/that are usually picked by tournament players for the character... So like for filia it could roll a die for hp updo, cr.mk, and hk hairball

Computer learns how to convert assist conversions from assists like updo and the like.

Computer learns some resets and reset points.

Computer learns some decent combos, maybe even some differing combos... Not just longish combos only if they will kill (which is what it now does)


I know many/all of these probably cant be implemented, but as many as possible or as close as possible would make fighting the computer more enjoyable and a MUCH better learning experience for newer players all the way up to experts.

And no the computer doesnt need to beat, it just needs to be a more enjoyable to fight, punching bag.


Cause you know... Punching bags are an actual thing for a reason.

 

[LuckyLucy]

It would probably be difficult to code and it requires UI so not likely this can be managed but it would be nice if you could select mechanics you're bad at so that the AI can exploit that weakness until you get over it, so for example I could select that I'm new and forget to block, and the AI would start using moves that are unsafe on block more and I would have to learn how to block to stand a chance.

 

[skull person]

'We'd like to get some feedback from the community about what should be changed or how it could be improved. ANY CHARACTER is fair game'

Wow we have a single player mode let me take a look at it and start typing.

- Doubles AI uses Cilia slide too much. [Too Unsafe!]
- Assists chosen for characters are not very great sometimes? [As I write this Double is calling s.HP Painwheel assist]
- Randomly performs snap backs for no reason from full screen? [I picked Solo even :S]
- Big Band really doesn't ever block.
- AI throws too much on it's recovey/wake up.
- AI should do more reversals on it's recovery and wake up, especially if it has a safe DHC.
- AI doesn't do well on incoming, try and make it double jump if it's a character than can?
- AI is way too vulnerable to frame traps, like 2LK pause 2MK, or sLP.. sLP... sLP... sLP... it either picks some option that loses or sometimes decides to block, and if it decides to block it sometimes decides to pushblock heh.
- Valentine uses Savage Bypass too much, (Not the safe LK version)
- Painwheel cancels into jMP from fly too low to the ground sometimes and it just doesn't come out.
- AI runs forward too much instead of jumping in when given the chance. [Very noticable with Nightmare Fukua, always likes to run forward and get beat out as opposed to jump ins)
- AI just dashes forward too much in general, this is jump in + call assist girls, not floor girls.
- Nightmare Fukua throws away her full screen positioning to run in [Not very realistic, this is sort of like going easy on them to not make anyone frustrated by zoning characters, maybe that's intentional]
- Just saw another 2HP assist on MsFortune, just saw an LK Beur assist on Painwheel...
- Painwheel walks forward too much and dashes, she doesn't fly enough.
- AI sometimes rawtags even with full [Still Green] health, randomly when it's not safe.
- AI picks HORRIBLE buttons to use on their recovery, think I mentioned this, ex: Cerebella using 5HK when she wakes up.
- Parasoul uses tear toss too much when it's not safe.
- Parasoul uses raw jHP and not the jLP jHP thing.
- Valentine cancels her second sHK into an unsafe Bypass which drops and you can punish it.
- Filia and Fukua use 5HK way too much.

- Pick a character with a good jumping button [Parasoul with jHP] and just hold up and hit jHP when you're about to land to smack them. They cannot deal with this.
> Make them use DP assists and block?
> Pushblock on first hit more reliably, back dash or up back after?
> Use a reversal if it beats that move if it happens to much? [Might be too much 'learning']



- Skullgirls is a reset heavy game, making the AI use resets to get players even barely used to the idea that it's possible would be really helpful for new players.

Parasoul does combo with reset: 2LK 2MK 2HP jMP jHP jHK \/ *2LK*
Gets to *2LK* and then runs some RNG and picks [ 2LK | 4HK | Throw ] and then converts off it into a shorter combo. [2 chains or something]​

Also render you have the warmest smile known to man and I miss it.

 

[Sky'sTheLimit]

Spoiler

When 5 meter is available, give Big Band a very small chance to cancel into Satchmo Solo during a combo and play a song.

This. Flotilla, has anyone told you that you're a genius?

 

[Hilary]

I do actually fight the nightmare computer about 4-5 hours a week fwiw.

The biggest things I'd like to see:

• AI Valentine not blocking for the entire freeze after it's hit you with a level 2
• Tic throwing, especially with rushdown characters
• Frame traps, even if they're simple/common like Para shot things
• PBGCs and ACs
• Teach this thing to use/call good assists that may not be defaults.
• A bit more randomness regarding when it techs/bursts and when it doesn't

Forgive me if it's unrealistic or difficult to implement, but those are the things I notice most.

 

[ashxu]

If Big Band is on 1 pixel of health, he should always parry the next Super and then land a sick combo

 

[Shnarfl]

I totally love the idea of an AI that actually learns, but that is very likely beyond the scope of a mere improvement pass on what we currently have. :(

Thanks for the feedback so far, everyone! This is all helpful!

maaaannnnn I would totally try to make a learning AI for SG if I were actually good at implementing machine learning stuff.

 

[PKStoopKid]

Eliza should fight back or use more combos
Double do more than Luger/Car
Peacock should Zone like a professional on Nightmare so that everyone has to learn to deal wit it

 

[Dyselon]

- Randomly performs snap backs for no reason from full screen? [I picked Solo even :S]

Do you remember which character was trying to do this? Or have you seen it on multiple characters?

 

[skull person]

Do you remember which character was trying to do this? Or have you seen it on multiple characters?

Only saw Painwheel do it.

Seeing as how you just made this account and it's your first post, are you the guy working on the AI?

 

[KaboomKid]

Glad to hear that you guys might have time to revisit the AI. Playing the latest Project M reminded me how far AI tweaks can go with enough time behind them, and it'd definitely be cool to see it pushed that far in Skullgirls. Of the AI currently in this game, I'd say that Big Band, Eliza, and Parasoul probably need the most help overall. Even boosting them in Training Mode with "Block - Always" doesn't keep them from falling into unsafe patterns.

Also, this is a character specific case, but I noticed some CPUs get kinda wacky when Painwheel starts flying. Some, like Cerebella, will immediately drop their defense to hustle your way, others will jump in the air and whiff stuff that wasn't going to hit anyway, and others (Eliza in particular) will just drop the controller altogether. There should definitely be some kind of behavior that keeps CPUs from ever becoming too predictable, or checking out entirely. Maybe just having them randomly forward jump/dash every so often while blocking/attacking might help.

 

[KidPanda]

Hmm not sure if it's been mentioned. I'd like the AI to try and use assists more, maybe if its a favorable priority assist?
i could be wrong about the AI using asists often, I havent played AI in a while but i dont recall seeing much assist calls from the AI

 

[TheGoggledGamer]

My major gripes with AI
AI will stop blocking in middle of Argus Agony, even if they don't have a remote chance to interrupt it (mostly prominent in double)
Painwheel will fly around not doing much, even to the point of flying backward until full screen and try to keep going
AI has trouble coping with Fukua's Forever a Clone (HK)

 

[Kuro Val Enix]

Eliza and Painwheel.
Eliza on the long range doesn't even try to hit you, she just call weight of anubis 'till you get near :| it would be nice if she tried to catch you also with , and on mid/close range series cancelled in . And sometimes she calls out sekhmet and... dunno what she wanted to do honestly, making her pushback and call out sekhmet butcher's blade like a reversal would be nice =).
Painwheel never try to exploit her Fly, whenever she goes up there she gets shot down 'cause she is slowly approaching, maybe giving her some differents routes and making her doing at close range fly j hp land fly j hk... ya know, painwheel stuff, would help to be a bit more "player" like.

Also, sometimes AI has some "useless assists", or really situational ones (Normal Throws?), It would be nice to have the AI choose between "more likely to be used" assists (in a team where parasoul is the 3rd character and there isn't a Fillia, I'd choose Napalm Pillar 88% of the times).

 

[Thrasher08]

It'd be nice if Fillia didn't block every hit.

 

[Detective Q]

It'd be nice if Fillia didn't block every hit.

Okay, absolute noob speaking here, but this is something I often notice as well, Solo Fillia and Fillia in general blocks and techs nearly everything, but never punishes. She gets her hits through jump in and after that stays passive and blocks like her life depends on it, even if it doesnt.

I wouldnt say that represents how Skullgirls is played from what I know, the AI (not only Fillia) never builds pressure like real players do, I never notice the AI going for mixups either. Like it does go for high and lows but it is too predictable.

I dont know whats possible or not, but the AI playing like top-players would, that could be interesting. Then again, Mike always says no one plays this game like it is supposed to be, so... I don't know.

Oh and Double always links Luger shot to car, always. She never uses anything else, if she's at a specific distance from you, she will fire her gun. If that hits, and she has the meter, the car is coming everytime. If that's how Double should be played, no one plays her right.

 

[Lem]

If that hits, and she has the meter, the car is coming everytime. If that's how Double should be played, no one plays her right.

Do not take the AI as a role model for what a character is capable of.

 

[Detective Q]

Do not take the AI as a role model for what a character is capable of.

My question is: Why does the Double-AI do this, other than because it is able to because it is an AI? Real people dont do this. You learn how to fight the AI, not how to deal with Double.

And shouldnt the AI, in the best case scenario, actually be a basic role model for what the character is capable of?

 

[Lem]

My question is: Why does the Double-AI do this, other than because it is able to because it is an AI? Real people dont do this. You learn how to fight the AI, not how to deal with Double.

And shouldnt the AI, in the best case scenario, actually be a basic role model for what the character is capable of?

Players are able to confirm off L Luger into Car if that's what you're saying.
They just choose not to because it's not a good use of meter, why blow a bar for no confirm.

Only happens vs Peacock to return to neutral for a sec or if you have a close range DHC that leads to a combo
(Car xx Install)
(Car xx Gregor)

Also 'dealing' with L Luger xx Car is the same as just dealing with Luger, which players DO use, so it's not bad to learn how to block it. Luger xx Catheads happens all the time.

 

[+5 Necromancer]

Make a new difficulty where the AI can make the longest combos possible.
Call the difficulty "almost IRL difficulty"!

 

[Broseidon Rex]

What I think I've seen a lot of is Bella (when far away) just crouch charging and then tumble running a bunch. Maybe instead, have her approach consists of run-stops, forward jumping jMP and empty jumps to command throws.
Also, with Bella, if you get the computer in the corner with Bella, if you time the Titan Knuckle right, they'll never block. I probably can't play until later this week, so I'll try to record.
Finally, maybe take a look at the speedruns people have done with this game for inspiration on what to tweak. They are the ones exploiting the AI, so it seems like a good place to look for improvements

 

[Evilweevle]

have the cpu be able to set up some kind of burst bait.

also have them do that thing where you can alpha counter off a burst.

 

[Mr. X]

How likely would it be for Nightmare mode to contain common teams in tourney footage and mimic the way they're played a little? Like Peacock/Bella team and it uses some setups/combos SwiftFox used in EVO GFs?

Definitely want to see the CPU use more of the game mechanics like DHCs, ACs, air ACs, raw tags, burst xx AC, PBGC, snapbacks, etc.

 

[WrestlerGuile]

How likely would it be for Nightmare mode to contain common teams in tourney footage and mimic the way they're played a little? Like Peacock/Bella team and it uses some setups/combos SwiftFox used in EVO GFs?

Definitely want to see the CPU use more of the game mechanics like DHCs, ACs, air ACs, raw tags, burst xx AC, PBGC, snapbacks, etc.

I always thought of that: Mike puts in programming algorithms of combos or set up RL players have used, such as severin or Dekill. I actually thought Skullgirls needed a new difficulty called "Tournament Style".

At the moment, nightmare AI appears to tech (nearly?) all throws. It teaches players that going for a throw is never a good idea, which is not true.

In a way, most times going for a throw when the opponent is in neutral is sort of a bad idea considering the opponents reflexes, and learning to grab opponents when they're attacking is a good teaching tool, but it is still highly unrealistic for opponents to tech nearly every single time, so I propose a more 50/50 chance algorithm of teching grabs.

I did always find that Filia in Nightmare mode is a challenge because of her really effective blocking, but the only problem was her teching.

 

[IsaVulpes]

Played a quick run through nightmare, impressions:

Have a set of assists to choose from, rather than them being fully randomized
- It's nice to show players that there are things other than Updo - but there's really no need for Taunt assists, Painwheel Lk.Buer, Bella s.HK etc

Have them actually call assists. The only assist that the CPU calls regularly is Titan Knuckle (for whatever reason)
- I don't care too much whether they use "burst alpha counters" - 99.9% of the community doesn't, so this isn't exactly a prerequisite to playing the game. But in half my matches, even if I spend 50 seconds just jumping around, I have no idea what my opponent's assists actually are, as they simply never use them.

CPU never seems to groundtech (this would be kinda bad for people who eg think that Para jHP > stuff is a "real" combo) - just have it always groundtech imo (as long as that doesn't make them guaranteed to die to untechable burstbaits..)

Much better combos, especially out of non-cLK starters.
- For example: Fukua has no ideawhatsoever what to do when she lands a grab.
So far after landing a grab, she has done:
- Another Grab
- Jumpback jHK
- M.Dart
- L.Shadow (at least this hits, but.. yeah)
Other examples are Squigly Silver Chord (xx Daisy Pusher, then another Silver Chord), Eliza DP (never does the jumpcancel), etc
If the AI actually converted hits into combos, which then ended in mixup points (where the AI rolls a die on whether to do overhead/low/throw/crossup/block), that'd be kinda amazing.

Less unsafe shit, and if something works, don't stop doing it.
- Base example vs Squigly at fullscreen, she charges Kickstance, Tremolo. I block. Charges Kickstance, Tremolo. I block. Charges Kickstance, Tremolo. I block. So far she got some free 1500 chip damage on me. Her next action is: Raw Tag to Double.
- Other base examples are Filia/Fukua doing random sHK a lot, blockstrings ending in unsafe crap, in general Tags for no reason, midscreen snaps, etc
- There is pretty much zero difficulty whatsoever in just holding downback until the opponent does something that is -50, punish, repeat. I can see this being a thing on Easy, but Nightmare should be a bit harder to defeat?
- IF the unsafe crap is supposed to stay, at least cancel it into things (sometimes). Eg Filia ending a blockstring in cHK has a chance to delaycancel said cHK into Updo for a stupid frametrap, so it's less free to punish.

Other base things like "reactions to superflashes when possible" (CPU will never do anything if you just raw Argus), using airthrows (I don't think I have ever seen one), actually punishing you for stuff (not blocking my Gregor and then letting me recover..), ugh the list is kinda long~

Other char specific things:
- Double Luger xx Car has always been a thing that was never good, and will never be good. It's not just a meterwaste, but Double also does it when it plain doesn't work (either because the Car will hit an assist, or even if the Luger hit an assist and the point is blocking)
- Fukua will randomly do Command Grabs during her combos. Yes, not as a reset. something like c.HP xx 8f Grab, where the Grab just whiffs.