Full Undizzy Sequences - Community Poll.

[Age]

This seems fine to me. Dying in 2 hits per character was pretty normal in earlier patches. Adding burstable points on the hitgrabs seems fair though.

 

[skull person]

http://steamcommunity.com/games/208610/announcements/detail/501425959361748689

Spoiler

Undizzy! (Done, is he?)
9 FEBRUARY - MIKE Z
Well, it is the Endless Beta, after all...!

Read up on why this batch of experiments is happening, there's a poll and everything.[skullheart.com]

All gameplay experiments here are just that: EXPERIMENTAL!
There are exactly 3 days to test this build, discover whether we like this direction, and decide to keep things or not. Remember, it'll feel like a big shift, so be ready for that.

General
- Being kicked from a lobby no longer locks you out of all other game modes until the game is restarted. :^P
Linux
- SDL has been updated to version 2.0.5, which should fix the framerate issues on certain systems that have weird DBUS configurations.
MacOS X
- Added the -nohidpi option to manually resolve crashes on certain Macs that have extremely recent updates that made the game crash.
Please feel free to contact cybik if the issues/crashes for the Linux and OSX versions are still present.

All gameplay experiments here are just that: EXPERIMENTAL!
It deserves restating. :^)

Overall Gameplay Experiment
- Any non-super damage when at or above 240 Undizzy is now subject to the most damage scaling possible. This situation ignores the different final scaling for hits over 1000 damage - all hits are scaled the same regardless of base damage. This includes Valentine’s poison. Let’s see what effect this has on match flow, because this seems to handle reducing the reward for max-undizzy sequences pretty well without any other changes to combo stages or meter gain.

Big Band
Experiments
- All versions of A-Train are now IPS tracked, and can grant Undizzy or IPS bursts if not chained into. (For IPS it counts as a separate special move from Brass Knuckles.)
- He now can’t use taunted supers during the same combo that he gained the taunt.

Beowulf
Bug Fix
- Added missing physical extent box on frame 4 of air knockup hitstun.
Experiment
- Non-super versions of Canis Major Press are now IPS tracked, and can grant IPS and Undizzy bursts if the grab-mode starting attack wasn't chained into.

Cerebella
Experiment
- Pummel Horse is now IPS tracked, and can grant Undizzy or IPS bursts if not chained into. (For IPS it counts as a run followup, the same as Kanchou or Battle Butt.)
- I decided not to do anything to Excellebella.

Robo-Fortune
Bug Fixes
- Headrone Salvo missiles now properly display IPS and Undizzy sparks when they hit, if those conditions are active.
- Lv1 and Lv3 Catastrophe Cannons now pull the opponent downward more, hitstop on each Cannon hit increased by 4f, and lowered the launch height of the individual hits, to help make many DHCs from Cannon not randomly miss half the time.

Title screen build ID 15534

Vals level 3 poison goes from 6 / 7 damage per tick to 1 / 2 damage per tick at 3v3 with full Undizzy, if anyone is curious.

 

[skull person]

Well, my 1 reset into death 3v3 set up which used 2 bars and a level 1 vial, no longer kills for 3 bars instead of 2 bars, while using a level 3 vial instead of a level 1 vial.

So I'd say the scaling is certainly working.

 

[cloudKing211]

I really dont like this change. It makes sense if the confirm was at max undizzy, but from a 0 undizzy confirm? Thats too harsh

 

[Mike_Z]

I really dont like this change. It makes sense if the confirm was at max undizzy, but from a 0 undizzy confirm? Thats too harsh

Whether it's too harsh is up to the opponent, mostly. You can always change the combo you do to put the poison + Flatline below 240...Band is basically changing everything he does, so I don't think that's very unfair. Poison adds the same amount of damage anywhere you put it below 240.

Tracking when you landed a hit would be strange, and finicky, and could get gamed very easily.

 

[MaddFire]

For Big Band, what about letting him still use the upgraded super when taunting in the same combo, but halving the added damage?(or more?)

 

[Mike_Z]

For Big Band, what about letting him still use the upgraded super when taunting in the same combo, but halving the added damage?(or more?)

In most cases unless the extra at-that-point-700-damage would kill, that's actually worse than conserving the taunt entirely.

 

[Mike_Z]

This change also makes max-undizzy throw resets strictly better than before, since you get extra "free" damage.

 

[missingno]

So if I land the poison right before 240, does it always deal its full damage no matter what, or does it start dealing less as soon as I continue my combo and reach 240?

 

[cloudKing211]

So if I land the poison right before 240, does it always deal its full damage no matter what, or does it start dealing less as soon as I continue my combo and reach 240?

as soon as it reaches 240 it decreases

 

[Lawnalog]

well I can still kill in one reset with Big Band in a 3v3 with no meter, I just have to reset a lot earlier. in 3v2 I now need 3 bars instead of 2 if I want to kill in one reset without taunt (2 bars if taunt is available)

 

[JDbbx]

rip last chain purple vial i guess

 

[skull person]

Last chain purple vial at max undizzy is 100% dead and not the way to go.

You need it early.
In the corner, an early purple vial is easy, but I'm not familiar with midscreen.
Does anyone know a midscreen early purple vial starter? (Besides like cLK cMK sHP + Assist + Vial, run up cHP)

 

[dekillsage]

Cr.HP J.MK Vial Airdash button

 

[Mike_Z]

I'm open to "if you hit it before 240 you still get the full poison", since that still fixes the problem.

well I can still kill in one reset with Big Band in a 3v3 with no meter, I just have to reset a lot earlier. in 3v2 I now need 3 bars instead of 2 if I want to kill in one reset without taunt (2 bars if taunt is available)

It's extra useful when don't post the combos or anything! :^P

 

[havick9]

Does undizzy start ticking down at 1, 2, or 3 frames of neutral?
It feels kind of easy to avoid the scaling for the first chain if your mix up has x>2f opening or something like that

 

[Ninjapls]

I'm open to "if you hit it before 240 you still get the full poison", since that still fixes the problem.

this! please based mike

 

[cloudKing211]

I'm open to "if you hit it before 240 you still get the full poison", since that still fixes the problem.

I would like this as well!

 

[tossle]

100% in favor of getting full poison if the vial hits before 240. I can accept that if I get lazy and throw one in after 240, I'll suffer for not using it properly.

 

[havick9]

Does undizzy start ticking down at 1, 2, or 3 frames of neutral?
It feels kind of easy to avoid the scaling for the first chain if your mix up has x>2f opening or something like that

nvm on this
you have to leave your opponent exactly on 240 for this thing to matter im dumb

edit: maybe nvm on this
maybe leaving people at 240 undizzy is optimal and useful now

 

[BlueFeena]

A big part of me really feels as though the game should be left alone. This change feels as though it's throwing out a lot of hard work people put into their setups.

On the matter of solo play and such, take a look at this:

I realize I'm not good enough to put myself into a situation where rapid fire resets at max undizzy would be beneficial, but yikes. There's also the added issue of everything Sekhmet does being unsafe and consuming meter, now with a 90%-ish damage nerf piled on top of it as well. I feel like this hits solo play pretty hard, but at the same time, I guess this is a two way street with teams no longer benefiting as much off their options.

I haven't had a chance to fight a trio yet; just talking to Tossle and some training room stuff. Take my opinion for what it's worth. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edit: Looking at things again, I don't know, maybe that reset would have caused the undizzy bar to drop due to how slow it is. Still seems worth pointing out though.

 

[Mike_Z]

I would like this as well!

Keep in mind that this means if you apply it after 240 and leave them alone, it wouldn't go back to being full damage anymore.

I feel like this hits solo play pretty hard, but at the same time, I guess this is a two way street with teams no longer benefiting as much off their options.

It hits everybody the same hard, but only if your opponent doesn't get to play very much.

 

[Turvon]

vial should do full damage if they were applied before 240 undizzy

 

[Lawnalog]

It's extra useful when don't post the combos or anything! :^P

 

[Mike_Z]

@Lawnba
Oh, I meant the 3v3 one, sorry. >.< 3v2 for lots of bar is fine with me.

 

[skull person]

A big part of me really feels as though the game should be left alone. This change feels as though it's throwing out a lot of hard work people put into their setups.

On the matter of solo play and such, take a look at this:


I realize I'm not good enough to put myself into a situation where rapid fire resets at max undizzy would be beneficial, but yikes. There's also the added issue of everything Sekhmet does being unsafe and consuming meter, now with a 90%-ish damage nerf piled on top of it as well. I feel like this hits solo play pretty hard, but at the same time, I guess this is a two way street with teams no longer benefiting as much off their options.

I haven't had a chance to fight a trio yet; just talking to Tossle and some training room stuff. Take my opinion for what it's worth. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edit: Looking at things again, I don't know, maybe that reset would have caused the undizzy bar to drop due to how slow it is.

Nothing here applies to just solos, and this change isn't aimed at dealing with solos.
You will only receive that 80% damage nerf if you push the Undizzy bar above 240 and THEN reset.
This applies to all teams, ratios, and strategies.
Make the decision to risk a reset early for pay off of max damage, or just take carry and positioning and let the bar drain on their wake up while you wall them off from leaving the corner.

 

[Lawnalog]

@Lawnba
Oh, I meant the 3v3 one, sorry. >.< 3v2 for lots of bar is fine with me.

 

[havick9]

Maybe undizzy should start ticking down slower or something

 

[dekillsage]

Maybe undizzy should start ticking down slower or something

Everyone can do this. If you time it meaty undizzy wont go down, and your combo has to end at 240 for this to happen which doesn't always happen.

 

[Mike_Z]

Just to remind people, the main point of this is to prevent continued harassment with huge payoff at above max undizzy, not to avoid losing a character without that.
Also, resets are still blockable. :^)

 

[Cadenza]

Could the scaling for 240UD be .33 instead of .200 perhaps?

Just feels rather stifled from my initial testings for attempting mixups at higher UD rates. To any one that thinks this encourages burst baits and such. It does not, in my opinion.

Overall: Most parts of this feels good, the UD part might cater to some and stifle some others, I'm just hoping there is a middle ground.

 

[Fosh]

Would it be possible to make the 240 undizzy minimum scaling start only on the next completely new button? So like if you're at 235 undizzy and do Big Band c.MP~MP in stage 5, both MPs would have the correct scaling instead of having the 2nd MP immediately fall to minimum, then the next new button would have minimum scaling. Having repeatable buttons that suddenly do no damage makes optimizing end strings all weird imo.

 

[Milton_JP]

I played beta a little, and I'm negative max-undizzy scaling.

It seem to encourage early resets.
I know this is my selfish opinion but...
I and many Japanese players I know tend to choice long combos rather than early resets. And we have practiced in such a way.
So, I guess this change would affect our basical tactics and the accumulation of experience.
It is too big for the LAST change.

 

[HiroProtagonest]

I and many Japanese players I know tend to choice long combos rather than early resets. And we have practiced in such a way.
So, I guess this change would affect our basical tactics and the accumulation of experience.

And why should Mike support a playstyle which ignores a huge part of the design plan of Skullgirls? He didn't set out to sabotage it, but if it's a sacrifice for a better experience with those who use all of their tools, it's acceptable. You can adapt, and other players have materials you can study and practice.

 

[Zidiane]

It seem to encourage early resets.
I know this is my selfish opinion but...
I and many Japanese players I know tend to choice long combos rather than early resets. And we have practiced in such a way.

You can still do long combos, but if you want to reset or have knockdown pressure after a long combo it's just a little worse now. You can do slower resets or give the opponent a little room after a knockdown to let Undizzy drain and keep your damage. You could also do 2 chains, then a reset, then your long combo.

It might also not stay.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

I played beta a little, and I'm negative max-undizzy scaling.

It seem to encourage early resets.
I know this is my selfish opinion but...
I and many Japanese players I know tend to choice long combos rather than early resets. And we have practiced in such a way.
So, I guess this change would affect our basical tactics and the accumulation of experience.
It is too big for the LAST change.

Japanese players tend to prefer "hard knockdown" safe burst setups, right? You still get those, they still knock down, they still give you corner carry and oki (and a burst bait setup if the opponent doesn't recognize the setup), you just don't get high damage on top of that.

Low risk - > high reward after you've already done your max length combo isn't really what Skullgirls is about imo. You need to know when to reset, when to burst bait, when to bait a reversal, when to go for a knockdown, etc. It's what makes this game's setplay interesting and why I like it. Having a guaranteed "go to" thing in your setplay does not make an interesting fighting game IMO.

Early resets are high risk, high reward, so it's fair their payoff is much greater.

 

[Spencer]

I'd like to add that regardless of how this change pans out, "this hits my playstyle hard" is hardly a decent argument.

Most of us have gone through some pretty serious changes on both our characteres and the system. Anyone remember the shortening of combos effectively nerfing Severin? Anyone remember adjustments made to solo damage and health affecting my and Zid's play preferences? Anyone remember the introduction of undizzy? Anyone remember undizzy being lowered from 350 to 240? (I should add that these were a while back, so my memory could be hazy on any one of them.)

I am sure you guys have plenty of good reasons to dislike the change, but "I do long combos" is hardly a compelling reason to roll them back.

 

[Zidiane]

I used to be able to kill just about anything with Solo Bella off of c.lk for a bar or two just about anywhere on the screen, yeah.

 

[CaioLugon]

Is it really necessary to force 20% scaling on hits with >1000 base damage? It changes how scaling works at the end of a full combo and the damage difference on a fully scaled combo in only about 200 damage depending on the character (~400 with bella/brass).

 

[cloudKing211]

And why should Mike support a playstyle which ignores a huge part of the design plan of Skullgirls? He didn't set out to sabotage it, but if it's a sacrifice for a better experience with those who use all of their tools, it's acceptable. You can adapt, and other players have materials you can study and practice.

Sounds like "well you cant play the way you have fun, so find this fun or dont play"

Also the designs of mde and sge were to be more reset based.
Vanilla and sde were tod central