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General Gameplay Discussion

Dime

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Painwheel Big Band Fukua
That was just....terrible. like....... i dont Even know why you even replied tbh.

Edit: it does matter whether you played parasoul or not and even matters more if you're proficient because it helps other para players how to properly attack i'm sure others (me since i'm picking up para for a sub team) would be delighted in hearing wisdom not snickering dead ends which annoys me cause then you're telling me (lol dont pick this character) instead of actually saying an actual suggestion cause your first message basically lol dont do this then you repeated it again like we're incompentent. Either have better suggestion or ask or inform us about the characters you currently play since you're still up to date with them and therefore be useful to us


Agreed. Not super useful to tell players what NOT to do, without giving an answer on what TO do.

The only real answer here, is to vary the hell out of your poke strings and/or use assists in your pokestrings to prolong your hitconfirms. Alternatively you can charge a pillar to reactively beat out (some) punish attempts.

I dropped parasoul because shes kinda bad to use offensively, shes slow, and to easy to pbag when using a lockdown assist as cover and pbgc when shes trying for a hitconfirm.

There is no "safeish" starter with her. Even innocuous stuff such as cr.lk>throw can be punished by late pushblocking the cr.lk and then pbgcing the wiffed throw attempt with supers like vals bypass (this actually works against everyone) the only "true" way to beat this that i know of is to not use ground comfirms and instead use aerial comfirms like her airthrow and her j.lp,j.hp confirm (which is punishable on block) the way that woofly plays is probably the only way to try and completely avoid parasouls negatives as far as her blockstrings are concerned. Soldier might be a decent try, but iirc it was still negative and pbgc fodder.
 

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There is no "safeish" starter with her.

c.LK s.MK is +0 on block. That's plenty safe-ish.
 

Dime

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Painwheel Big Band Fukua
c.LK s.MK is +0 on block. That's plenty safe-ish.


We were specifically talking about pbgc and safety to being pushblocked Parasoul is highly gimped in that situation.

Cr.lk,cr.mk /st.mk is the closest she has to being safeish and even it isnt all that safe. Comparatively, this can be said about every character with one caveat.. almost every other character has a special that they can use to cancel into to change the dynamics up on cr.lk., but parasoul being a charge character wont have a charge from dashin cr.lk, so her only special is toss which is terribly slow.


Shes more gimped than other characters in this regard imho. Double can kinda suffer from the same thing, but double has j.hp which is a phenomenl confirm and easily spammable, so double can go for ground strings at her leisure rather than being forced to do them like para... Which changes the dynamic up quite a bit. Against para, players can afford to just sit there and wait for a pbgcable blockstring, against doubles jhp they basically cant. You have to play like woofly, or have to play para perfect, from what ive seen.
 

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Hello, I've been out for so long and... I just can't find the old threads about unreleased characters. I know there's a section for them in The Gallery, but Aeon's thread is missing and I can't find it... were those threads moved or what?
 

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Man

How do you do this --> :360: <-- with a keyboard.

(I know I did it with Cerebella some time ago, I don't remember how lol)
 

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Just do :F::D::B::U: and you should able to get it, you don't need the diagonals for 360s in skullgirls.
 
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Caleb

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Just do :F::D::B::U: and you should able to get it, you don't need the diagonals for 360s in skullgirls.

Thanks! It worked. I'll try to remember it next time.
 

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Fukua Robo Fortune Big Band
I've been playing this game for quite a while, but have never figured out how to play back a recording of a dummy action in training. I watched a video on YouTube by 6_Let recently (wished I'd found it long ago), and was able to record a dummy action. But I have no idea how to play it back despite carefully going through menu options & experimenting. Just curious how it works for this game or any other fighting game. It'd be great if a fighting game tutorial included how to use training options someday.
 

Dr. Zeus

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If you have the SELECT button Training Setting on dummy record/playback, when you press select (or whatever you have mapped to select) once, you'll gain control of the training dummy. Press it again, and it will begin recording your actions, and press it one more time to stop the recording. That recording is now saved to the Recording Number in the Training menu. Pressing Select again while it's set to the same number will have the dummy play back your action.

You can also change training setting to make the dummy loop the action, do at as a reversal (so it does the action on the first possible frame after escaping blockstun/hitstun). You can also do cool stuff like recording three different dummy actions, then setting the replay number to random, and setting it as reversal, so that the training dummy will attempt to either block/jump/attack whenever you try to reset them.
 
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Fukua Robo Fortune Big Band
OK thanks, I'll give it another shot. No matter how many times I pressed select I couldn't get the recorded action to playback. I wish there was a separate option just called playback, but will try to make this work. I'm trying to do a double snap combo for my first time, but need to have the CPU call an assist so I can hit them both...
 

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Maybe you have the 'select' button mapped to something random? If all else fails, you can reset the controls to default, and press whatever keyboard key 'select' is mapped to, which should be 'F'.
 

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Fukua Robo Fortune Big Band
Maybe you have the 'select' button mapped to something random? If all else fails, you can reset the controls to default, and press whatever keyboard key 'select' is mapped to, which should be 'F'.
Oh, I've never played a fighting game on a PC. I'm on PS3. Still haven't managed to do it yet, but I must be getting close. Just need to be patient a little longer.
 

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Oh, my bad. Good luck figuring things out!
 

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Fukua Robo Fortune Big Band
Thanks. OK, there's Save/Load state, which I can't get to do anything. Dummy Record/Playback.
I record, then see a red dot which signals stop. I see a green arrow appear: play. Two white lines: pause. But no playback. And Both. I just hit select on Both, and... That option is the key. Wow, after so long, I did it. Sorry if this seems obvious to some people, but I really didn't want to give up.
 

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Ms. Fortune Filia Double
The red dot does not signal stop
It signals record
Have you used a video recorder before

Save/Load State:
- Press Select once and it saves the current state (green flash).
- Press select again and it loads that state
(eg you can save, combo an opponent from the left corner to the right, load - and you will be back in the left corner)
Delete Savestates either by holding Select for a while, or by pressing LK+HK+Select (does a red flash)

Playback/Record:
- Press Select once and you enter recording state (signified by red dot). You are now controlling the dummy and can input anything
- Press Select again and it saves the recording (no symbol shows)
- Press Select a third time and it plays back what you recorded (signified by green playback arrow)
Delete Recordings either by holding Select for a while, or by pressing LK+HK+Select (does a red flash)

Both:
- Press Select once and it saves the current state (green flash) and get into Dummy control mode (Pause symbol). You can mostly ignore this and go to the next thing
- Press select again to enter recording state (signified by red dot). You are now controlling the dummy and can input anything
- Press Select again and it saves the recording (no symbol shows)
- Press Select a fourth time and it loads your state + plays back the dummy recording
Delete Savestate+Recording either by holding Select for a while, or by pressing LK+HK+Select (does a red flash)
 
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Nevins

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Ah, I see. I assumed due to universal colors of society: green=go & red=stop, that this was the case. I have used a video recorder before, but have never managed to get recording in a fighting game training mode to work. I've never found a tutorial in-game or on YouTube that explained how to use them. Thanks for the detailed explanation of how this training option works.

I found Both to be most useful because after saving the action I could play back the dummy recording & practice the double snap combo. Playback/Record wasn't doing it for me for some reason (despite the number of times select was used). Do people that use this feature use Save/Load, Playback/Record or Both generally? I wonder if one is better than the others, or if a combination of 2-3 are used. At any rate, I've definately made more progress in Training in the past few days than in many months. (Now to try to get a burst bait combo to work)
 

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Robo Fortune recieved a throw invul move. I'm not exactly sure how her throw invul move would actually be useful. I'm not exactly sure how any throw-invul-only move is useful in this game at all actually.

Neutral jump falling normal is the best universal throw read punish in the game. Doing something throw invul-only as reversal loses to the same things that neutral jump loses to, except if they decide to sit back and bait a reversal of some kind.

It's the same thing with Peacock's L Gun. Why would I do L Gun instead of IAD j.MP if I think they're going to throw me? L gun is punishable on block, loses to hits, IAD j.MP loses to hits too but if they block it's a high they gotta block and it's plus. On hit, L Gun uses up your stagger early in the combo, and starts you off with two ground strings. On hit, IAD j.MP gives you counterhit medium on a jump-in. Why would I use L Gun instead of IAD j.MP in the majority of I'm-gonna-get-throw cases at all? There is significantly higher risk, AND significantly lower reward for using L Gun.

If I'm throw punishable after a normal string, then it might be useful as a delay string mixup. Except for the fact that if I'm throw punishable I'm DEFINITELY jab punishable so my opponent's dumb for punishing that way unless jab would whiff and throw wouldn't, making it an extremely situational string to pull out. The only different case is if I'm throw punishable by cerebella's qcf throw or her throw super.

Is this the purpose of throw invul moves? Delay string mixups on Diamond Drop and Ultimate Showstopper(and by extension Beowulf level 3 and Fukua level 5)? Is it a common thing that characters with Throw Invul moves have matchup problems against Cerebella specifically in regards to their punishable ground strings, and so need those tools to fake her out on qcf throw punishes?

Does anyone have any other insight to this?

Edit: Spirit of the stairwell has blessed me with the idea is to specifically make Peacock's delay string mixups worse, by making qcf MP only Strike-Invul, making it a mixup between a Strike-Invul delay string and a Throw-Invul delay string. I personally think that doing an LK Bomb fast anyway instead of delaying into MP/LP Bang is a safer idea most of the time though. Robo fortune ain't got a strike invul special to cancel into so ???
 
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Dime

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The difference primarily is speed. Neutral jump falling normal is slow, most throw invulnerable moves are fast(er) than that.


So, even though we only give credit to throw invul moves for beating out throws... They "can" also beat attacks that are slow, which might have some yomi layer applications somewhere down the line in the eventual 10 years later meta.


Btw, I'm not disagreeing with your assertion much at all. I knew robo would be getting a throw invul move because it's one of mikes things, but I don't necessarily think that throw invulnerable moves are a huge thing (it probably harkened back to mvc2 character being completely unplayable in a matchup or certain situations if they don't have something throw invulnerable)

They are especially applicable to the bella thing you said and the only other place I've ever really used one is when I use peacock argus in the corner... Many people want to throw peacock as soon as they land.


Painwheels throw invulnerable move is her flight... Go figure because it has no ability to beat out attacks unlike L gun and is straight up slow as hell with 15 frame flight startup into an 8-9 frame normal for a 24 Frame throw invulnerable move.


But as I'm thinking of it right now, flight is cancelable into air super... Maybe there's an actual use for this as a grounded reversal... Will have to research.
 
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mcpeanuts

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Double Big Band Peacock
Posting this here instead of the Big Band subforum because I want non-Big Band players to see it. I made a quick video on Timpani Drive because no one seems to understand how this move works or what they should do when it gets blocked. Hopefully this will explain everything.

 

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Valentine Robo Fortune Parasoul
After returning from a year long absence I saw Taluda grow into a great player with a character people dismissed. Now I'm curious which characters are likely to rule this game in, say, the next five years.

Will Big Band parries destroy pressure strings? Will Sehkmet ever stop being useful? Will Peacock struggle to deal with players fully adapted to her zoning or will she always be a viable choice? What of Beowulf and Robo? Any thoughts?
 

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Assuming you mean Painwheel, she got, like, a truckload of buffs

EDIT: Not at all saying that made Taluda good haha, just that she is not even close to a bad character in anyone's eyes that I know of now
 

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Assuming you mean Painwheel, she got, like, a truckload of buffs
EDIT: Not at all saying that made Taluda good haha, just that she is not even close to a bad character in anyone's eyes that I know of now
The only buff she got that he uses is unfly. And she got nerfed in the damage department fairly hard. How quickly people forget.

Robo Fortune recieved a throw invul move. I'm not exactly sure how her throw invul move would actually be useful. I'm not exactly sure how any throw-invul-only move is useful in this game at all actually.

Neutral jump falling normal is the best universal throw read punish in the game.
Necrobump.
Throw invincible attacks can punish throws even if done on the last frame. You also don't get hit by Excella or A-Train, can ground-super cancel if you guessed wrong, can cancel blocked moves into one to beat throw punishes that would otherwise be CH, can beat combined ground/air throw setups...and in a lot of cases if you are reacting, they are the guaranteed punish instead of nj attack.
Though I hardly find it surprising you dismiss moves out of hand. :^P
 

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He doesn't use flight speed? Or 2MK?
 

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The only buff she got that he uses is unfly. And she got nerfed in the damage department fairly hard. How quickly people forget.


Necrobump.
Throw invincible attacks can punish throws even if done on the last frame. You also don't get hit by Excella or A-Train, can ground-super cancel if you guessed wrong, can cancel blocked moves into one to beat throw punishes that would otherwise be CH, can beat combined ground/air throw setups...and in a lot of cases if you are reacting, they are the guaranteed punish instead of nj attack.
Though I hardly find it surprising you dismiss moves out of hand. :^P

Hey, I use a whole lot of criminally under-rated moves/tech/tactics everyone misses out on! Just the other day I was experimenting with Val s.MK. If you're going to make a jab at me at least make an accurate jab, please. I have very good reasons to doubt the relevance, usefulness, or situational optimal-ness of throw-invul moves.

Why would someone throw punish a normal instead of jab/short punish(FASTER AND UNSCALED) unless it is literally at the spacing where jab or <=8f c.LK/s.LK would whiff and throw is long enough to reach, or you imagine they are going to cancel into a strike invul move(already illustrated in my post you quoted, but unacknowledged)?

I can understand using it to hedge bets in mixup vs anti-air throw and ground command throw, so is it purely to make peacock/robo up close matchup vs Cerebella better if Bella is deciding to use 623throw as a mixup option instead of well-timed command grab/c.LK mixup? If that is the reason for it's inclusion, that is an extremely specific reason to include a whole move.

Its use as a punish for anti-air grab assist+point command grab and point anti-air grab assist/assist command grab setups is also legitimate, but also extremely specific. That is also an extremely specific reason to include a whole move.

Those are three EXTREMELY SPECIFIC situations-

1.Peacock canceling into M Gun, cancels into L Gun instead to beat throw punish
2.Hedging bet vs anti-air throw and command grab mixup(When a superior mixup exists with correct timing in low vs throw, with low beating throw invul move anyway)
3.Punishing assist throw+point anti-air throw and assist anti-air throw+point throw setups with damage

So specific that, even upon a revisit, the first and third are the only legitimate reasons to ever use a throw invul move, the first being only for peacock(Does big band have a throw-invul-only move actually?), and the third being specifically against a character+assist loadout setup. Please, let me know if there is anything I am missing.
 
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Mike_Z

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He doesn't use flight speed? Or 2MK?
OK, you can't avoid using flight speed, fine. But he doesn't often use 2MK as a second low mixup rather than just part of a blockstring that I've seen, no.

Please, let me know if there is anything I am missing.
First off, a hit assist + a throw attempt makes punishing with neutral jump falling normals not possible. Throw invincible moves can hit before the assist begins, saving you in that situation.
Secondly, in a lot of cases neutral jump falling normal is not fast enough to punish a throw. For example, unless Peacock has jumped before 2f into Filia's throw animation, she can't punish with nj anything. Filia can prevent that with meaty throw on wakeup. And if Peacock IADs instead, she will not be able to block if Filia also called an assist. So L Bang is a better choice in that situation, since both lose to lows but L Bang beats throw + assist.

Don't approach it from the point of view of, "What moves have other characters got that throw invincible moves beat?" Everyone has a throw, and CH throws aren't techable, and it's not like nobody throws except characters with command grabs. Approach it from the point of view of, "What do I have that makes other characters want to throw me, and when?"

Throws beat armor; Robo's s.HP has armor. This makes throw (+ assist) a decent choice against her in neutral, because if she s.HP's she gets CH thrown. She can do s.HP to check for meaties and cancel into a throw invincible move if she thinks you're going to throw her, or if you backed the meaty up with a throw, which she can't do by jumping.
Peacock's M. Bang is used often, and is strike invincible. To beat it, if you want to beat it, you throw her. In situations where she wants to M Bang or teleport, like on wakeup, throw is a super good option vs her. She has nothing that's 1f throw invincible except L Bang and jumping, which both lose to lows. However, jumping loses to Excella/A-Train and doesn't get you anything vs assist+throw, whereas L Bang beats both of those things.

Its use as a punish for anti-air grab assist+point command grab and point anti-air grab assist/assist command grab setups is also legitimate, but also extremely specific. That is also an extremely specific reason to include a whole move.
Defeating an entire class of setup that the character would otherwise have no way to avoid is not too specific a reason to include a move. Eliza gets run all over by setups like this unless she can Lv3, for example.

If you're going to make a jab at me at least make an accurate jab, please. I have very good reasons to doubt the relevance, usefulness, or situational optimal-ness of throw/invul moves.
OK! Saying that a move is sub-optimal, or even that it is entirely gimmicky, is not equivalent to saying that the move is useless. As a player who uses gimmicks very successfully, I find your viewpoint super frustrating generally. I think you dismiss too many things for the wrong reasons.
For example, Akuma's F+Strong overhead is throw invincible in arcade 3s due to a bug. It's sloooowwww, it doesn't lead to a full combo, it is punishable on block or parry, and it doesn't get you the huge throw-whiff punishes that jumping does, aside from kara-demons which cost full bar. It was also used EXTENSIVELY by Akuma players to dodge throws, to the point where when the bug was fixed in the first few console releases people classified him as "unplayable". Throw invincible moves in SG have fewer downsides and more upsides than that does!

I also think you and Dime are just plain wrong OFTEN and that this mostly stems from a lack of good competition to prove otherwise / help you learn differently, or lack of having played many games at a decent level so you discount any kind of human factors. You cannot use theory fighter as a replacement for actual play. But this bit is just my opinion of your approach.
 

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First off, a hit assist + a throw attempt makes punishing with neutral jump falling normals not possible.
Secondly, in a lot of cases neutral jump falling normal is not fast enough to punish a throw.

Yo let me try out rising normals real quick

For example, unless Peacock has jumped before 2f into Filia's throw animation, she can't punish with nj anything.
And if Peacock IADs instead, she will not be able to block if Filia also called an assist. So L Bang is a better choice in that situation, since both lose to lows but L Bang beats throw + assist.

Just tested, Peacock can punish with instant nj.LK adf j.MP on meaty Filia throw, which prejumpframesidkwhattheyare+10 startup frames in j.LK is probably faster or around the same speed as L Bang? Please give numbers on prejump frames. For this situation, if instant j.LK is faster than L Bang, then it it superior to L Bang vs Filia throw+Non Anti-Air assist; If they are the same speed, then instant j.LK is superior based on reward alone; If L Bang is faster by a couple frames than instant, then L Bang would be the superior option.

(Also, Robo fortune can nj.MK link j.LP punish on meaty throw, but M Danger is 10f while j.MK prejumpframes+10f startup so there's that)

You are also conflating two different assist timings - One where the assist timed well enough for throw->next frame strike to occur, and another timing where the opponent's assist is delayed enough for it to not even land and start up because Filia was counter hit out of her throw by L Bang.

In the first timing, it indeed does beat IAD j.MP and nj.LK, but it would also beat L Bang clean as well. 7f throw startup vs 16f L bang startup, with the assumption that throw is meaty anyway and assist is hitting within the next couple frames. This means that the Normal Throw escape options in this setup are throw tech, upback or invul super are required, with upback or invul super only being forced on command grab +assist setup upback results in chicken blocking the assist which limits the setup lockdown assists and anti-air throw assists which are mentioned later.

The second timing is best with air throws since air throws are a forced tech-the-throw situation with characters that don't have invul air super(which peacock and robo lack), since if they get grabbed they get grabbed and if they get thrown they have to block a lockdown assist. Quite nice. However, with ground throw + lockdown assist, this timing is not nearly as good because IAD, rising, or certain big falling normals will punish the ground throw early enough to potentially get a happy birthday, with more reward than what L Bang would give.

EDIT: Now that I'm less tired and I look at it again, the second timing where Filia gets counter hit cos the assist isn't out yet, I mixed up with an actually useful timing. If Filia would get CH out of her throw by L Bang and nj.LK, then the assist would just come in to taunt and leave if the throw got teched since throw tech makes assists stop coming out. Happy birthday if they reversal super too, only useful against upback.

If there were any throw-invul air specials, those would be TREMENDOUSLY more useful than the ground throw invul moves in this game.

However, jumping loses to Excella/A-Train and doesn't get you anything vs assist+throw, whereas L Bang beats both of those things.
Defeating an entire class of setup that the character would otherwise have no way to avoid is not too specific a reason to include a move. Eliza gets run all over by setups like this unless she can Lv3, for example.

Well, if you insist. I think that using Bella/BB's other good assists results in a more consistent team, and that using that kind of setup is less sub-optimal than choosing it on PW who has legitimate choice between multiple mediocre assists, which results throw-invul moves ending up being designed for use against teams with less-consistent assist choices with two characters and one specific character with multiple mediocre assists in team composition.

Since you think those considerations are dangerous enough to include moves in your game to specifically combat them, well, I can't really argue against that, that's what you think is important and that's what you're balancing against.

I think you dismiss too many things for the wrong reasons.
For example, Akuma's F+Strong overhead is throw invincible in arcade 3s due to a bug. Throw invincible moves in SG have fewer downsides and more upsides than that does!

Because throw is such a common and repeatable-when-not-dealt-with mixup option and conditioning tool(I'm gonna throw you 5x in a row until you learn to deal with it whoops here comes the throw whiff punish/counterhit), I'd argue that Akuma's throw invul f.MP is not actually gimmicky in 3S, especially if you do guard-for-six-frames-f.MP OS timing. somce his f.MP is throw invul and in this timing it to beats meaty/throw mixup while inducing damage for attempting the throw mixup, and also hitting them overhead if they commit to block low vs DP. It's not a bad option when it fits in with the considerations of the rest of his moveset.

The context in which both moves exist - Akuma f.MP in 3s, Rofort M Danger in sg - is absolutely important when it comes to their valuation. An offense without throws in SG still consists of high/low/left-right mixups pushblock baits and frametraps, which is consistent enough to open people up a lot of the time, but having an offense without the threat of throws in 3s is not nearly close to as consistent.

I also think you and Dime are just plain wrong OFTEN and that this mostly stems from a lack of good competition to prove otherwise / help you learn differently, or lack of having played many games at a decent level so you discount any kind of human factors.

I'm working on it - I'm exploring playing JP players in SG, core SG players in AU have made some important improvements recently, and I'm playing other games with numerous better players more consistently (primarily Melee and Melty Blood right now since Melee is hueg in melb locally and MB has a dedicated online playerbase of actually good players in AU). I've made extreme improvements recently with no signs of halting the improvement momentum, so I'm excited about that.

Also, being potentially wrong a lot an important step to being much-more-correct in the future, so I'd rather you not discourage discussion by implying being wrong is bad. It's only bad to be wrong when you're insistently wrong without addressing evidence to the contrary.
 
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Dime

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Don't lump cm in with me. I doubt he'd like that. And my theory fighter is the bestest in case you don't know.
 
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Just lump you in with the rest of aus by default then.
I know we are hated, but ouch

EDIT: Woah this thread is way off topic
 

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Just lump you in with the rest of aus by default then.


That's not really fair to the rest of AU either seeing as to how I only get to play the game on average once every couple of weeks. How about lumping me in with me? Also, yoma and newt and even chairman Mao aren't AU and afaik they contribute much more to the oceanic scene than little ol me.

I've taken a small step back from the game in general. Lag and lack of available practice time dictate a step back as a necessity if I want to continue to play any kind of consistently.
 

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Didn't mean it in a negative way. You all are from AUS right? That is all i meant.

On-topic: i dunno. If you want to neutral jump and then risk getting hit by a crouching or standing jab. i don't know whether to call you stupid or smart. I can see the application in both methods. I also don't think a grab is really anything to worry about unless its val,PW, Squigs with charge and band but that's just me.

Edit: AUS players read this and try not to be offended by the previous statement. Cause i would like AUS to stop bickering amongst themselves or even mention each other and not discuss or add to what mike and CM are discussing. Thank you!
 
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I know we are hated, but ouch

EDIT: Woah this thread is way off topic

You're only hated because half of everything in AU is actively trying to kill you. We're more scared of you than anything else.

@MikeZ

I do remember PW's damage was nerfed (mostly corner, right?). I remember it being fairly noticeable as soloWheel, but not as noticeable for a team. Is that accurate? Do you have pre-nerf numbers? My memory is for shit.
 

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Stinger flight cancels
Tag unbreakable when combod into
Has a real level 3
Old level 3 install became 2 meters instead of 1
All armoured moves had armor point sped up and now lasts into first active frame.
St.mp armor autocorrects if it absorbs any hits.

And I think there may have been even more. But there were nerfs as well.

-edit HK buer on the ground now is unblockable as the opponent rises. Air MK buer now always combos into buer thresher against every character. Lk buer on the ground leaves the opponent in a comboable state from fly cancel (taluda uses this one at least) though that's a buff from vanilla to sde.


As far as the throw thing, I see it both ways but mostly side with cm. it's exceptionally rare in this game to see someone use a throw invulnerable move specifically to beat throws on defense. And nearly as rare to see one used offensively... With the extremely special case of pw flight going over throws on offense.

I also agree that comparing this situation to 3s doesn't really fit since 3s doesn't have nearly as many non throw based, easy to setup universal mixups, as sg has.
 
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The nerfs were smaller, and I'd say it was an overall (large) net buff.

Some corner damage was lost. HI flight speed was nerfed. I may be missing one or two here or there, but I can't remember for the life of me.

Also, remember that other characters took some beefy hits. MF, Fukua, Filia come to mind. That definitely had a hand in contributing to PWs strengths as well.

Oh another PW buff: hk.buer is unblockable on the way up.
 

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The nerfs were smaller, and I'd say it was an overall (large) net buff.


Totally true but the nerfs that REALLY hurt were losing threshers ridiculous invincible frames, and losing fly j.mk comboing from st.hp, and losing out 2 hits of armor on j.hp.


Most everything else was more or less bringing pw into manageable territories or taking away stupid things that the buffs gave her when combined with her old stuff.

Of the 3 listed above, the only one I think was warranted was the thresher I frame nerf... But that's me.


Also, she had more unfortunate nerfs via system mechanics such as throw nerf and air attack rooting against upback nerf. But she also had some system mechanic buffs such as proximity unblockable supers giving her a legit reversal in the ground that other characters couldn't just super through on reaction even when they fucked up.


And I guess L BE could qualify as a buff for her as well since she didn't work as well with any other dp assist.
 

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-on topic-
I do remember PW's damage was nerfed (mostly corner, right?). I remember it being fairly noticeable as soloWheel, but not as noticeable for a team. Is that accurate? Do you have pre-nerf numbers? My memory is for shit.
50% scaling on Buer, 2 Buers per flight instead of 3. Reverting just these two things, even with 240 undizzy, gives her 100% for 1 bar off HCH within about 3/4 screen of corner, and I can't remember if they'd give her a 100% in the corner off c.LK now but she had one with 14.3k life.
Hatred Guard damage was also not affected by damage scaling, before.

-off topic-
I only get to play the game on average once every couple of weeks
[snip]
I've taken a small step back from the game in general
Totally true but the nerfs that REALLY hurt were
You'd be less infuriating if you stuck to your "I don't really play" excuse by also not attempting to talk about how things work when people play the game. :^P Either you don't provide outdated opinions and try to equate everything with theory fighter, or I can justifiably lump you in with Clarence for that reason... :^)
2 hits of armor on j.hp.
She never had this except in the Beta for a very short period of time as a test...

I know we are hated, but ouch
Nobody else is grouped with Dime and Clarence. (^.^)