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General Gameplay Discussion

Ok, now that I've done some more testing...
Frame advantage from just titan knuckle:
Parasoul: 103
Big Band: 106
Cerebella: 107
Fukua: 108
Filia: 108
Squigly: 109
Eliza: 109
Fortune: 109
Painwheel: 109
Val: 109
Double: 110
Peacock: 113


Frame advantage from titan knuckle immediately cancelled to qcf+LP (midscreen)
Parasoul: 72
Big Band: 75
Cerebella: 76
Fukua: 77
Filia: 77
Val: 78
Painwheel: 78
Fortune: 78
Squigly: 78
Eliza: 78
Double:79
Peacock: 82

Obviously the theory in the above post was off. I tested lock and load because it moves the screen slightly and I wondered if it would affect time flying in the air differently for each character. Luckily not.
I think I understand what was going on.

The sliding knockdown time determined if the command grab was meaty or not, meaning the same motions as a point character should create a meaty on squigly, eliza, fortune, painwheel and val. With a possibility of it also being meaty on fukua/filia, cerebella, bigband or double depending on how many active frames are available and where they sit in relation to the recovery frame.

What determines the prejump hit for this assist (and any assist that has moving active frames I would conclude) is the hurtbox of the character standing up. Squigly and eliza are very thin as they stand up into prejump, so a horizontally moving assist will hit them a few frames later than fortune, valentine etc.

Conclusions? When creating a meaty setup off sliding knockdowns (safe jumps, unblockables etc.) The core group to aim for are the val/fortune/squigly crowd. If your point character's attack is meaty on them, it may well be meaty for the characters who are a frame earlier or later as well. The assist will most likely be more consistent if it has a stationary hitbox (such as pillar), or is timed to only appear after your meaty (such as an updo timed to go active 1 frame after your point character's attack connects).

Projectile/moving assists also have their uses since if you mess up for true setup they will most likely still keep you safe or apply lockdown. They just aren't as reliable for this style of unblockable.

Sliding knockdowns are also not the only meaty setups. For characters like peacock and parasoul who are the outliers for sliding knockdowns it may be more practical to create frametrap setups since recovery from non-knockdowns is universal.
 
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Proof of concept for the frametrap version of meaty unblockables. This one seems to be universal except for the timing of the restand, but since the assist call is a bit after you press j.hp I think the basic setup could still be universal.
 
Mike_Z said:
I'm a strong independent game developer and I do what I want

I ain't making you do crap. :P
 
Chances are, the solution will probably be "upback can block assists, projectiles and things that are far away on the ground now" which will also remove a bunch of stupid shit like Filia's s.HK catching upback.
 
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Mike_Z said:
You're really gonna make me fix this, aren't you...nobody's gonna like the fix...
Are you going to make it so that prejump is only vulnerable to lows like I've always hoped?
 
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guitalex2007 said:
Are you going to make it so that prejump is only vulnerable to lows like I've always hoped?
How does that help? He just needs an assist that hits low like squigly c.hp and voilà...
 
dragonos451 said:
How does that help? He just needs an assist that hits low like squigly c.hp and voilà...
Because the attack/throw setup on the same frame is fixed by simply blocking already.

The problem here is with jumping back making you vulnerable to the chair.

Unless of course there is something else I'm missing. Which I wouldn't be surprised.
 
guitalex2007 said:
Because the attack/throw setup on the same frame is fixed by simply blocking already.

The problem here is with jumping back making you vulnerable to the chair.

Unless of course there is something else I'm missing. Which I wouldn't be surprised.
Well, the sekhmet assist version pretty much looks like grabbing + hitting at the same time, so I guess he makes it work by doing mgr so it grabs just 2-3 frames before sekhmet hits...and that would also work if he used squigly c.hp as an assist.
 
dragonos451 said:
Well, the sekhmet assist version pretty much looks like grabbing + hitting at the same time, so I guess he makes it work by doing mgr so it grabs just 2-3 frames before sekhmet hits...and that would also work if he used squigly c.hp as an assist.
If it grabs before Sekhmet hits then it's not attacking and having on the same frame.

Meh, I've just never been a fan of getting hit by Peacock's crap because I wanted to jump back lol
 
ClarenceMage said:
"upback can block assists, projectiles and things that are far away on the ground now"

command grab assist + point character hitting low would still be unblockable

guitalex2007 said:
Are you going to make it so that prejump is only vulnerable to lows like I've always hoped?

point character doing command grab + low hitting assist would still be unblockable

guitalex2007 said:
If it grabs before Sekhmet hits then it's not attacking and having on the same frame.

What is this I don't even? These unblockable setups rely on a command grab that hits meaty followed a frame or two later by something that will catch prejump. Whatever idea mike has in mind for a fix, it worries me what other parts of the game it might impact.

For now, can't we just talk about gameplay implications?
 
Age said:
What is this I don't even?
Phone autocorrect.

Seems to me that unfortunately the way to fix it is to allow chicken blocking. Whoops.

I mean if the throw hits meaty and something catches you in prejump then unless there's invincibility added on wakeup which is terrible for oki and will likely never happen, probably means we're looking at the return of Chickenblockgirls.
 
Why not just let it rock? Reversals kill this afaik. And as far as m sek is concerned... Just balance it. I can see how this is bad, but i cant currently see the setup as completely broken since these things require rather specific setups and reversals should kill them. Painwheel might be fucked, but, balance her? Idk why she got throw invulnerability taken away from deathcrawl in the first place.
 
You're all missing things like "if a grab whiffs through you then during prejump you can block" or "if a throw attempt is happening and an attack is happening then you will go into preblock" since this is a very specific situation, nothing has 0f startup, and preblock is throw invincible. Remember, the idea is to affect as little as possible.
 
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Writing this down for reference:
The only situation which is unavoidable is if the grab comes first. If the hit comes first you are (or at least you can be) in blockstun.

Thus, the simplest solution I can think of that impacts exactly zero other things is:
If a throw whiffs through you in prejump, the rest of your prejump is invincible. After that you will be able to airblock the hit.
It could even be extended to "if a throw whiffs through you in prejump, Excellabella or A-Train are then blockable on your way up for a little bit" but I don't actually think I want to go that far since that's what those moves are for.

I guess I'll give this a try in beta or something.
 
That won't affect daisy pusher + excellebella will it?
 
dekillsage said:
That won't affect daisy pusher + excellebella will it?
You can't block Excellebella going up so no.

Edit... Unless he makes Excellebella blockable, which he just said he probably won't do since that's the whole purpose.
 
Mike_Z said:
C'mon everyone, it's in, what'cha got?

I suspect this was already possible, but you can tiger knee some stuff and cancel prejump after the grab whiffs. For example with the above previously unblockable setup (which is now working as intended as far as I can tell) I could tigerknee a lock and load which was neat.

So far it seems like a solid change. In the cases where weird stuff might conceivably happen (maybe an assist will whiff through someone holding back and look odd) the attacker can just choose not to make it such a close gap between grab and assist or instead go for a meaty low into lockdown.

I do have a theory about a grab bag setup but it would be techable anyway.
 
guitalex2007 said:
Phone autocorrect.

Seems to me that unfortunately the way to fix it is to allow chicken blocking. Whoops.

I mean if the throw hits meaty and something catches you in prejump then unless there's invincibility added on wakeup which is terrible for oki and will likely never happen, probably means we're looking at the return of Chickenblockgirls.

I'd love to see chickenblocking unnerfed. Getting hit out of prejump frames by Copter, SOID, and others is silly frustrating and unintuitive.

Especially since we have the perfect answer in low mixups that prevent jumping and get the hit if they are chickenblocking out of combos/resets which is perfectly intuitive.
 
I wish that chicken blocking was only vulnerable to lows. Wishful thinking, I guess.
 
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Because the nerf came as a response that up back got rid of the low throw mixup entirely.

I also never quite understood how putting you in stand pre block didn't mean you could block standing. It's kind of unintuitive.
 
guitalex2007 said:
Because the nerf came as a response that up back got rid of the low throw mixup entirely.
This doesn't even seem to be a sentence?

♠♠♠

I don't really have an opinion on the matter I guess -

Sometimes I get really pissed when I upback and Peacock happened to let go of Doom before, causing me to get hit randomly;
Sometimes I am very thankful for this, as I don't like upbacking much and frametrapping with tearshots to ruin people feels good.

Assists beating upback can be taken out gladly, as assist based resets are strong enough as-is.

I definitely like Point character stuff that beats upback due to not triggering preblock from afar (eg the Titan Knuckle / MGR mixup). Keep this, please~
 
Unfortunately, if you make assists and projectiles cause pre-block you get into a situation where a ton of stuff starts causing you to become glued to the ground even if the attack would whiff.
 
I think the best reasoning is it is counter-intuitive. Getting hit by a well timed SOID from fullscreen because you're trying to jump the walking George just feels shitty.

And there is a good answer to chickenblocking in the form of lows. I catch people with low resets all of the time, and I get caught by dash>low all the tiem too.
 
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Two concepts based on the stance-width tech from @zeknife

This stuff seems really tough to set up correctly. Meaty lows that were spaced to whiff on crouchers would catch some transition frame and put them in blockstun. Doing it too late doesn't catch jumpers. So it seems you need to put your whiffing normal's active frames a couple of frames after they wake up, and have your grab go active during the active frames of the low.

The other type is a high/low concept based on the fact that Big Band, Double, and potentially [squigly, filia, peacock] get wider while crouching. The high attack should whiff if they stand and block, meaning they don't get protected from the low by being in blockstun. I haven't put it into an actual setup, but I suspect you could do it on their wakeup and catch up-back too.

The whole idea of conditionally whiffing a move and creating a hard to block or unblockable situation from it is pretty cool. One thing I want to look into later is air-preblock, and whether that can be used to creat something similar.
 
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So here is a question: why is Filia the only character with a run that stops when you pass under an airborne opponent?
 
Seems like a perfect place to talk about this: So a couple of months back I figure out the assist button not only can be use to call out assist of course,but at the same time your "Point" character can do a special all in one motion. Now my question is,have anyone found any real application to use this neat little feature?
 
Tons. I do it constantly with everyone. First thing that jumps to mind is doing it after a Filia airthrow to do an H airball + call an assist that will pick up the combo without burning Filia's one airdash cancelled hairball per touch or needing to use Gregor. Or with Double doing back + a punch + LK + HK to get a simultaneous Cilia slide + assist call. Or Painwheel doing a fly cancel + assist call.

If a character has a self-chaining normal like Peacock's LP LP or Double's MK MK you can swap an assist call that contains the button you want for the second hit of the self-chain and get both the chain and an assist call, which is really useful for simplifying your inputs.
 
I do it all the time as well. One of the first things i look at is my characters and assists special plus assist, synergy.

One that i really like is something like giant step for BB with a lockdown assist. Makes giant step safe on block and gives easy confirms as well as a second try at a mixup on block.
 
Giant step with lock n load is the cheap stuff.
 
CaioLugon said:
beat extend + copter is pretty broken
Yes, it is quite nice. As are many reversals combined with lockdowns :)


One of my favorites is pillar with l extend.
 
Is there a directory on all the frame data for skullgirls?
 
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