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General Gameplay Discussion

Whether to mash or not to mash is a part of the game, so having that removed is like calling the player stupid whenever he doesn't or does make the right choice in mashing, in my opinion, of course.
 
Reversals are fine imo. I just think completely flipping who has the advantage is too much. Imagine if in SF4 Akuma's dp caused a hard knockdown and he got vortex afterward
 
The reward from reversals in this game are as unfair as the rushdown, so it seems fitting that they work like they do
 
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@Broken Loose Didnt we talk about this on the Pali thread? I mentioned that you can use alpha counters in that situation and then you mentioned that people didnt do that enough.

Just because something can be beaten, doesnt mean its not a potential problem worth adressing. We just have to find out what makes it that players want to mash to begin with. In other games that never ends well for the most part.
 
IsaVulpes said:
"I want to push buttons without worry" is what I get from people asking to keep invincibility on things.
That would be a welcomed change to the suggestions of making an offensive-heavy game more offensive-heavy which you seem to always be in favor of.
 
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you're right, not all atempts are mashed, but is in a lot of cases it is for most players.
 
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Erreip199 said:
you're right, not all atempts are mashed, but is in a lot of cases it is for most players.

Online?
 
I honestly don't know exactly what reversals are, so can anyone explain to me please? And what types of reversals are there other than mashing?
 
ThatOneOtherDude said:
Reversals are fine imo. I just think completely flipping who has the advantage is too much. Imagine if in SF4 Akuma's dp caused a hard knockdown and he got vortex afterward

He can spend 2 bars and do pretty much that. Shoryu FADC is significant reason shotos are good, they make players play smarter on offense when their opponent has 2 meters.

Considering how crazy resets are in this game I don't really mind. Hell if you have a lockdown assist you can reset by block + calling assist then doing a reset while they are in blockstun.
 
WrestlerGuile said:
I honestly don't know exactly what reversals are, so can anyone explain to me please? And what types of reversals are there other than mashing?
Reversals other than mashing? Knowing when they'll reset, and doing reversal inputs according. After getting caught by one too many resets, I've learned not to push buttons unless I can react to a reset. If I don't reversal, I block until I can do something.


That being said, I really need to work on PBGC.
 
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Erreip199 said:
@Broken Loose Didnt we talk about this on the Pali thread? I mentioned that you can use alpha counters in that situation and then you mentioned that people didnt do that enough.

Just because something can be beaten, doesnt mean its not a potential problem worth adressing. We just have to find out what makes it that players want to mash to begin with. In other games that never ends well for the most part.
Well, to realistically address this (I imagine I probably didn't want to have a serious discussion in a Pali thread), Burst Alpha Counter/Stunt Double Infinity Breaker/Stunt Breaker is a superior option to dealing with burst baits than doing a raw burst is, but it has a few serious weaknesses.

The first is the meter cost, obviously. Is it worth a meter to get out of a reset at a point where the opponent has specifically braced themselves for you to do something?
The second is that, if it's a proper burst bait, there's a pretty fair chance that the opponent will be spaced in such a way that the Stunt Breaker may whiff (or will at least be blocked). You may leave yourself open further, unless...
The third is that, to make the SB option worthwhile, you need to be able to cancel the Stunt Double-- and since most of those are special moves (according to usage, check Worldjem's thread), that means spending 2 meters to possibly get out of a situation in which the opponent has spent none AND is baiting a reaction.
The fourth is that the odds are against you whether or not you'll be blocked. The opponent is out of range of the initial burst, and then the SD provides a quasi-super flash period that functions as a mini-QTE (but without the hitstop of a normal super flash). I used to catch people by countering into Lock N' Load and then canceling into Showstopper, but the strength of that setup relies on forward movement of the special AND super and the inability to block the latter option.

In short, you'd need to have an immaculately designed team that has options to make up for these shortcomings, you use a ton of resources, there is a huge risk involved, and it won't work against every burst bait setup. I'd say that it's worth still trying burst baits on the offensive end, although it's definitely high reward to match the high risk for the defender.
 
Camail said:
He can spend 2 bars and do pretty much that. Shoryu FADC is significant reason shotos are good, they make players play smarter on offense when their opponent has 2 meters.

Considering how crazy resets are in this game I don't really mind. Hell if you have a lockdown assist you can reset by block + calling assist then doing a reset while they are in blockstun.
Shoryu fade is fine because you have to build the resources to do so. This is not the case in Skullgirls
 
ThatOneOtherDude said:
Shoryu fade is fine because you have to build the resources to do so. This is not the case in Skullgirls

Pretty sure a reversal super costs meter. And its not very difficult to get 2 bars, especially with a shoto.

edit: The point isn't to compare the two games. It's a rather fruitless avenue of discussion because they are not supposed to be similar games. I so seriously doubt that this suggestion will be taken that I'm content with removing myself from the situation. Reversal super is a part of the game, the solution isn't to change the game.
 
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ThatOneOtherDude said:
Here is a list of supers I think shouldn't have invincibility.

Double
-Catheads

Filia
-Gregor

Fortune
-Feral Edge

Painwheel
-Install
-Thresher

Parasoul
-bikes

Peacock
-Big bomb
-Argus

Valentine
-Scalpels


Agreed about:

Cats,gregor, pw install, peacock bomb and argus. But thats about it. Pw deserves her invincibility on thresher. Maybe she doesnt deserve her ability to combo off of it.. But maybe she does. But she DEFINITELY DESERVES the invincibility. As it is right now with her damage being nerfed a bit, i think she still deserves the combination of invincibility and hit confirm.

Also, if you run an assist that allows you to do it, bella CAN convert dynamo from fullscreen on hit. Age does it all the time and its one of his bellas primary confirms. Im not saying that it should be nerfed, but it is certainly strong and is one of the most braindead reversals into pressure in the entire game... But it takes meter, so... Yeah, balanced.


And finally, while i do understand and concur about some of this... I kinda find it suspect that one who bases their entire game on calling invulnerable assist and hitconfirm into full combo for no meter... Would have a problem with invincible move confirms into combo... For meter.

I understand that there are big differences... But they arent that substantially different. Updo/pillar otg confirm is one of the most bullshit strategies in the entire game and is infinitely more spammable and safer than metered conversion reversals, the former being something that val is the best in the entire game at converting.
 
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Realtalk: Everybody here should go back and watch SCR top 8, specifically the parts where Peanuts kept on baiting reversal supers and punishing the shit out of them.
 
Broken Loose said:
Realtalk: Everybody here should go back and watch SCR top 8, specifically the parts where Peanuts kept on baiting reversal supers and punishing the shit out of them.
Can you give a video, pls?
 
I wish I could do anything about reversal super dhc into catheads.
 
WrestlerGuile said:
Can you give a video, pls?
http://www.twitch.tv/leveluplive2/b/507098318?t=09h09m42s
Somewhere in here.

Basically, reversals are something you have to deal with, and some of them are going to be invincible. They're not unique to this game, they're not unstoppable, and it's 2009 as fuck to just outright ask for their removal instead of learning how to deal with them.
 
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ThatOneOtherDude said:
Here is a list of supers I think shouldn't have invincibility.

Double
-Catheads

Filia
-Gregor

Fortune
-Feral Edge

Painwheel
-Install
-Thresher

Parasoul
-bikes

Peacock
-Big bomb
-Argus

Valentine
-Scalpels
So in short, you're not a fan of spending meter to get your meter's worth?

Also, you forgot Dynamo, THE OBVIOUS ONE. The fact that you omitted it leads me to believe you're just trolling, in which case I suggest a hobby like collecting coins or stamps. Maybe some local tourism?
 
Dynamo is fine but the distance she walks forward should be decreased while keeping damage the same.

*gets boo'd off the stage
 
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If anything i think this game should have a reversal window on normal anti-air's similar to sf4
but that's just being a scrub, la die da
 
keninblack said:
Dynamo is fine but the distance she walks forward should be decreased while keeping damage the same.

*gets boo'd off the stage
More like...

Dynamo would be fine if she lost all hitboxes behind her. Fuck that whole "I hit you upward but it bounces you awkwardly downward and over me so I can convert midscreen" bullshit.
 
guitalex2007 said:
More like...

Dynamo would be fine if she lost all hitboxes behind her. Fuck that whole "I hit you upward but it bounces you awkwardly downward and over me so I can convert midscreen" bullshit.

Getting ambiguously crossed up by an AA dynamo as you go for an ambiguous crossup and then often even getting juggled behind her as she walks always struck me as kind of ridiculous.
 
Merlock said:
Getting ambiguously crossed up by an AA dynamo as you go for an ambiguous crossup and then often even getting juggled behind her as she walks always struck me as kind of ridiculous.
This. Sometimes I won't even be going for a crossup, I'll just jump over Bella pushing nothing and then I get blown up. On another note, nobody's mentioned air EKG's absence from that list.
 
Because you don't get a full combo from ekg, which was the point of the entire thread.
 
So the point is to buff the character who is probably equal with the other top tiers now after recent changes?
 
What Camail said.

I'm fine with reversals being good. I'm not fine with getting full combos because you reversaled. Am I crazy for thinking this? O.o
 
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Moved the thing to here. Also, while I'm at it, why is this and the Game Design threads not the same thread? Any reason I shouldn't merge the two?
 
I have no idea what nerfing Gregor invincibility actually does because you can just DP xx Gregor anyway. Raw gregor is pretty bad.

And Air Gregor doesn't have enough hitstop to catch you if you didn't press a button anymore either.
 
So why isn't Fiber Upper on that list? It's an invincible reversal that leads to full combo. What about Cat Strike? Or Devil Horns? Or Merry Go-Rilla? Or Prescription Counter? Or Daisy Pusher?

The list has so many omissions, specifically every Bella omission when she has more invincible reversals that lead to full combo than any other character in the game, that it seriously reads like "shit I got beat by" instead of an actual objective judgment of gameplay. I'm not even going to touch on the fact that you play Bella.
 
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Zidiane said:
Moved the thing to here. Also, while I'm at it, why is this and the Game Design threads not the same thread? Any reason I shouldn't merge the two?

If you keep going with that logic we're going to end up with every thread merged into one eventually.
 
Jason said:
If you keep going with that logic we're going to end up with every thread merged into one eventually.
I'm just looking at this thread and that thread and people seem to be talking about the same types of things. I couldn't tell which thread to merge the invincible super complaining with.

Broken Loose said:
So why isn't Fiber Upper on that list? It's an invincible reversal that leads to full combo. What about Cat Strike? Or Devil Horns? Or Merry Go-Rilla? Or Prescription Counter? Or Daisy Pusher?

The list has so many omissions, specifically every Bella omission when she has more invincible reversals that lead to full combo than any other character in the game, that it seriously reads like "shit I got beat by" instead of an actual objective judgment of gameplay. I'm not even going to touch on the fact that you play Bella.
Well, MGR isn't really a reversal. It has hit invulnerable frames, but I'm pretty sure it has vulnerable startup frames, and there's the whole "doesn't hit people on top of you" thing (up until Big Band at least). And Devil Horns really isn't good enough to care about it getting nerfs.
 
Zidiane said:
Moved the thing to here. Also, while I'm at it, why is this and the Game Design threads not the same thread? Any reason I shouldn't merge the two?

thats something that ive been wondering for months is that people seem to enjoy posting stuff about how the game plays more in that thread than the actual gameplay thread. i say merge them. gameplay thread gets almost no activity when it should be the most active one.

Jason said:
If you keep going with that logic we're going to end up with every thread merged into one eventually.

you cant deny that the "game design" thread is mostly full of gameplay stuff though. having basically the same topic spread across multiple threads does nobody any favours.
 
Gameplay design is for when people want moves to work differently than what they do. Aka "filia updo assist should be nerfed... And this is how it should be done"

Aka theory and game design. The gameplay thread is to discuss how things currently are and deal with that stuff. Such as "filia updo assist is stupid good, how should i deal with it as a "x" main"


The first thread is rooted in theory and unplausibles, this thread is supposed to be rooted in actual gameplay. Keeping the 2 separate is a good idea in my mind even if the difference between either gets confusing at times.


So basically, toods thread should have been merged with game design, not this one.
 
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i understand that that is supposed to be what is talked about in the game design thread, but most of the time it doesnt turn out that way and its people just talking about gameplay stuff. i just picked a few pages at random and checked them out and there were huge portions that were people talking about the current game ie matchups and shit like that, not theory and unplausibles as you put it. take a look yourself.
 
Evilweevle said:
i understand that that is supposed to be what is talked about in the game design thread, but most of the time it doesnt turn out that way and its people just talking about gameplay stuff. i just picked a few pages at random and checked them out and there were huge portions that were people talking about the current game ie matchups and shit like that, not theory and unplausibles as you put it. take a look yourself.


Oh no, i certainly agree with you. Im just saying that it is there for things that "start" on the unplausibles. Like toods newest creation. Everything WILL eventually devolve into gameplay related topics because the only real way to talk about unplausibles is to compare them theoretically to that which is plausible... Basically things that are already in the game. Hell if you look at my first post in the design thread on the first page you will see how i felt about it at first.


But i grew to like it because it does give places for those types of convos to go. Whereas in this thread those types of arguments tend to just get ignored just gp.
 
this thread gets ignored full stop basically.

it took months for me to actually find gameplay discussion because i didnt really care much for "game design", which is so vague it could really count for anything (sound/art/mechanics/etc), so i never bothered visiting that thread like ever.

anyway kinda getting off topic now.
 
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