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Spotlight How to Make Fighting Games: Mike Z explains the dos and don'ts

We love you Miku Z... er... I dunno, remember to keep a random option when the announcers pack come out. But that's too far from now, I'll remind you then... so er... I have nothing to add right now... so... WATCH JOJO'S TODAY!

*oraorashiswayout*
 
i dont know if you can answer this, mike. but will any of the remaining characters have a non forward/back airdash? i know you talked about that being a possibility as long as it wasnt an 8 way air dash. (or have you not thought that far ahead?)
 
Cleaned up thread to remove any traces of silly off topic conversation.

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Try to keep things on topic thanks.
 
I went to sleep aftter my last post, missed everything after.

I know this probably isn't mike's jurisdiction as it's a UI thing but I'd like to know how much thought goes into the character select screen of games, kinda like the extra credits thing on lifebars.
I actually don't think that was Extra Creditz. As far as I can remember, the only Fighting game episodes they've done are the FOO Strategy one and the one already posted in this thread. I think you're thinking of this one.

 
when's taunts #kappa.

though @Mike_Z

are there still some unused animation for any dlc's like big band squigly and the likes? could they be shown at some point in the future?

On topic:

could there be a (possibly illogical) a ranked lobby? with also spectated and with the chance to save the matches in a replay state? like some people for some reasons would like to keep their matches private(w.e) so like an option to share your matches.
 
Hey Mike, you know how unless there was a ratio in place for different size teams, every same size team had the same amount of life on each side. Why doesn't fighting games do that for easier balance? They would have less to worry about.
 
Hey Mike, you know how unless there was a ratio in place for different size teams, every same size team had the same amount of life on each side. Why doesn't fighting games do that for easier balance? They would have less to worry about.

I’m not mike, but it seems like it would actually take more time to balance characters around a system that could involve them having one, two, or no team mates at all. Not to mention how they would be affected by a larger life pool and greater raw damage output as a solo as opposed to how they would be as a member of a three character team.
 
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Hey Mike, you know how unless there was a ratio in place for different size teams, every same size team had the same amount of life on each side. Why doesn't fighting games do that for easier balance? They would have less to worry about.

mike has talked about this before. if i remember correctly he said that giving a character more or less hp as a way to balance them is a poor form of balancing. a bad character with poor options that has a lot of hp will still lose every time because they dont have the tools to be effective, even though they can afford to mess up and get hit more. i think mike would agree with you wondering why. although its probably a combination of its an easy (if not optimal) form of balancing a character and the players have come to expect larger character to have more hp. ive often had people confused why skullgirls characters all have the same life totals because they expect cerebella to have more (because shes a grappler)
 
Hey Mike, you know how unless there was a ratio in place for different size teams, every same size team had the same amount of life on each side. Why doesn't fighting games do that for easier balance? They would have less to worry about.
You need to play more fighting games. (An opinion that is reinforced with every post you make. Do that before you start thinking about making one.)

In ST everyone has the same health and defense. KOF does it, I think even in KOF13 everyone has the same health (and the same juggle hitboxes). I think MK and Injustice also do? Smash does, but not sure that counts...

@Dreamepitaph
There aren't really unused animations for Squigly or Big Band or Eliza or...well, anyone after Peacock.
We've gotten really good at not wasting time or effort. Like, REALLY good. Big Band originally had a different s.HP but that never got past roughs before it was replaced by SAXIMUM.
 
I always thought Big Band said "Sex 'em up!".


...I prefer my version.
 
You need to play more fighting games. (An opinion that is reinforced with every post you make. Do that before you start thinking about making one.)

In ST everyone has the same health and defense. KOF does it, I think even in KOF13 everyone has the same health (and the same juggle hitboxes). I think MK and Injustice also do? Smash does, but not sure that counts...

All characters in KOF13 have the same health, the big body characters like Clark are harder to guard-break / more guard meter though. MK and Injustice everybody has the same health, there are a few instances where characters can get defensive boosts though, like Baine's trait.

Smash... I don't think I'd count that since characters in Smash have very different weights and falling speeds which has a big impact on how hard they are to KO. That's basically the same thing as having different health totals.
 
Smash... I don't think I'd count that since characters in Smash have very different weights and falling speeds which has a big impact on how hard they are to KO. That's basically the same thing as having different health totals.

I'd not count it either, but defense in smash has a far greater influence on matchups than varying health totals. It's not just weight and falling speed, it's also recovery strength and stage picks. The options you have available (or that are desirable) change drastically depending on stock count, both your and your opponent's percent and stage. The difference between lowest and highest weight or falling speed, etc. also is massive compared to most other games.
 
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In Smash's case it's a bit more understandable, since while lightweights are easier to kill it also affects the combos on that character, so it sort of balances itself out that way. Contrast with traditional arcade-style fighting games, where health and weight are usually two separate concepts.

Also I know Soul Calibur has universal health as well. I think Tekken does too but I'm not sure on that front.
 
VF has same health across the board too. I think it would be shorter to name games with varying health across characters.
 
I'd not count it either, but defense in smash has a far greater influence on matchups than varying health totals. It's not just weight and falling speed, it's also recovery strength and stage picks. The options you have available (or that are desirable) change drastically depending on stock count, both your and your opponent's percent and stage. The difference between lowest and highest weight or falling speed, etc. also is massive compared to most other games.

Not an exact comparison, obviously, but I'd definitely compare getting knocked off the stage in Smash to getting knocked down in a traditional 2d fighter. They're both situations that put you on the defensive and give your opponent a chance to apply pressure from an advantageous position... and in both cases if your opponent attacks you correctly they can put you right back into the same situation again.

In that sense, Recovery Tools in Smash are the approximate equivalent of Reversal Options in SG or Street Fighter... or maybe I'm totally off base. I've never played competitive Smash.
 
DoA has universal health value as well, but different juggle weights. It's pretty much Capcom/Arc Sys fighters that do the varied character health concept. Some lesser-known niche fighters may also fall into that category too.
 
You've never played on bad sticks, or tried to teach anyone fighting games, have you...? Half-circles buy you NOTHING a quarter-circle doesn't, while increasing the execution barrier significantly.
I use d-pad and most of my gaming crew are controller users and never complain about half circle + direction inputs, even when they are picking up the game fresh. (Again, coming from a background in Guilty Gear). I can't say that half circles are any more daunting than 360 motions and since there is less possibility of people accidentally jumping (Without using the 360 motion shortcut which may as well be a half circle) while executing a half-back I only have your word that those motions really present a needless execution barrier.

If we have a character with more than...let's see...20 individual special moves with 3 strengths each (QCT/DP/QCB/RDP/BF/DU/360 + P/K, charge P/2P/3P/K/2K/3K), then we'd be at the point where I'd consider a half-circle. LONG before that we would've reached the point where I'd cut special moves or have outright quit. :^)
For comparison, MvC3 Dante has 24 special moves with 1 strength each, which is only 4 separate motions required when filling up all six buttons. He wouldn't need anything beyond a DP or QC. [edit, I can't count]
And I respect you're design philosophy for this game. I don't have much of any experience with in Capcom fighters so I can't say what did or didn't work for those. Like I said, I recognize that you have a preference, I just choose to not make it the end-all-be-all of the validity of another motion.
 
I only have your word that those motions really present a needless execution barrier.
You also have logic? A half-circle requires two extra directions over a quarter-circle. Unnecessary directions, if there is not a already a quarter-circle on that button.
 
Hi as someone who has struggled with crappy controllers in the past, half circles SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK
 
Hi as someone who has struggled with crappy controllers in the past, half circles SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK

Flashbacks of Mahvel 3 on Ps3.... spiderman... why... why Spidy? OH, oh dear.... here comes the Flashbacks of the online matches as well... the lagg it's everywhere.... why is Mahvel 3 so bad? all I wanted was marvel 2 with more characters.
 
You also have logic? A half-circle requires two extra directions over a quarter-circle. Unnecessary directions, if there is not a already a quarter-circle on that button.
By that logic Persona 4 Arena is a paragon of good fighting game design by phasing out DPs, 360/720/1080s, charge moves, and any other notation that isn't a quarter circle + button, or direction + button.

I'm going to say this again. It is my personal opinion that half circles are a viable input for fighting games. If you disagree, well you make the game so you can do whatever you want and I will still play the game and rep it to all my friends like I'm a crack dealer. If I want halfcircles I'll go and play guilty gear. I'd like to see them in Skullgirls but they are not a deal breaker by any stretch of the word.
 
I'm actually kind of confused on one point about the button configs - why would it have been a good idea from Capcom's point of view to switch from Tap to Select in the SNES games to Scroll Through a List in SF4?
Is it not pretty easy to set up a system for button bindings that is based off just tapping the buttons? I know that's how I set up all my button configs in college.
Because Capcom's button configs theoretically should be quicker than tap to select. It was probably a matter of them not realizing how people will use it. If you have a stick for the proper system (not dual mods), they have a layout for all of the sticks that are available for that system. To set my buttons, I just have to go to Arcade Stick C in button configuration. That's quicker than tap to select. But if you're using a different stick or your stick is modded, then it takes longer. Tap to select isn't always good. Setting buttons on AE or KOF13 for PC isn't intuitive at all. Unbinding the macros are a terrible process.

If we lived in a world where everyone used standard equipment and people weren't afraid that their buttons are going to stop working between the last time they played and the time of their match, button configuration in SF4 would be good except that you can't do it in the character select menu. But even if you have tap to select in the character select screen, people are going to still use button checks because it gives them a few seconds to get used to the monitor and warm up. A good button config is more than just tap to select. And even if you have that, people are still going to want to go into a match anyway.

the fact SF4 never got F*CKING TUTORIAL TEACHING THE PROPERTIES OF A FOCUS ATTACK, can only be justified as laziness or a deliberate decision.
I don't think it's laziness. The manual explains focus attacks and even FADCs btw. SF has always had a ton of casual appeal because you didn't need to know much to have a good time playing it. At the most basic level, it's a game about getting the other guy's health down to zero and that's why many people enjoy it. The game instantly becomes a lot more complicated once you start talking about things like punishing, reversals, frames, mixups. I've been playing fighting games for over 20 years and I had no concept of these things until '10. If the games themselves presented their complexity, I don't think I would have enjoyed them as much. I was in it for the simple joy of beating up family and friends. When you add a tutorial that goes into the game even a little, then it changes how the player views the game. If a game presents itself as difficult and complex, it will undoubtedly turn some people away because you're telling them that there's a commitment involved. If you're interested in the complexity, there are plenty of resources available but I think they should be kept outside of the game.
 
Hi as someone who has struggled with crappy controllers in the past, half circles SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK

Even without crappy controllers it introduces a lot of chances for the motion to get messed up on functioning pads, such as the god-awful d-pad on Xbox 360/Xbone pads. trying to do a half-circle back to forward for BB supers and getting an unintentional diagonal up input when swinging it back and forth was the most infuriating shit ever when in the heat of a match and needing your super on demand.
 
as a rose player I have gotten use to half circle motions, but they still suck I end up losing a lot of fireball battles becuase of the extra time I put into that motion
also I can't stand the 3 button ultras, as a pad player I get so many EX soul throws messing up my inputs for Illusion Spark
 
as a rose player I have gotten use to half circle motions, but they still suck I end up losing a lot of fireball battles becuase of the extra time I put into that motion
also I can't stand the 3 button ultras, as a pad player I get so many EX soul throws messing up my inputs for Illusion Spark
please do not remind me of my needed FSE for juri or my U2 becoming fireball EX
 
By that logic Persona 4 Arena is a paragon of good fighting game design by phasing out DPs, 360/720/1080s, charge moves, and any other notation that isn't a quarter circle + button, or direction + button.
I know you're being sarcastic, but for the most part I'm actually in agreement with that. (It has plenty of design problems as a game, but if we're only talking about motions, sure.)
My two motion-related problems are:
- They removed motions ENTIRELY from a move that should HAVE one, your invincible reversal All Out Attack. The point of a move having a motion at all is so that you cannot be, say, continuously attempting to crouchblock or run forward as well as DPing, or mashing the valid DP input every frame, and that you can't do the motion for something else and then decide in one frame you want to DP.
- They have double QC's when it could just as easily have been QC+2 buttons.
And I guess it bothers me a little that sweep is two buttons, but that's minor.

Plus you can do a halfcircle for any quarter circle you like and the move will come out, so you can totally have 'em in SG! <3

@JELIFISH19
You can have presets along with tap-to-set, though. GG does. That's kinda unrelated, though, since if everyone used standard hardware you wouldn't even need a button config, let alone a preset. (And the actual config part is still worse. :^)
Plus, tap-to-set checks your buttons for you, people already don't play a test 30 seconds in SG in tournament. You can argue it might be what people are used to, but that's only because it's what the game forced on 'em up to this point.

You can't argue that having an in-game tutorial is worse, though, that's a little nuts?
If you don't want to learn, you don't have to learn...but if you want to learn, the game itself should help you rather than requiring outside resources.
 
I feel like "half circles" are a lot easier than pressing LP+MK on the same frame consistently, getting IAD j.MP to come out asap, Wavedashing (Backwards!!), Walk/Dash forward > DP (Tadaa, alternatively we got a half circle motion! Except it actually requires a full one (41236 rather than just 4236, so it's harder)) and whatever else

I do agree that motions being hard for the sake of them being hard is stupid, though
 
By that logic Persona 4 Arena is a paragon of good fighting game design by phasing out DPs, 360/720/1080s, charge moves, and any other notation that isn't a quarter circle + button, or direction + button.
Persona does have charge moves though. Mitsuru.
 
If you don't want to learn, you don't have to learn...but if you want to learn, the game itself should help you rather than requiring outside resources.
Like having a move list in game? :p
 
I know you're being sarcastic, but for the most part I'm actually in agreement with that. (It has plenty of design problems as a game, but if we're only talking about motions, sure.)
My two motion-related problems are:
- They removed motions ENTIRELY from a move that should HAVE one, your invincible reversal All Out Attack. The point of a move having a motion at all is so that you cannot be, say, continuously attempting to crouchblock or run forward as well as DPing, or mashing the valid DP input every frame, and that you can't do the motion for something else and then decide in one frame you want to DP.
- They have double QC's when it could just as easily have been QC+2 buttons.
And I guess it bothers me a little that sweep is two buttons, but that's minor.

Plus you can do a halfcircle for any quarter circle you like and the move will come out, so you can totally have 'em in SG! <3

Not that I disagree with these points, but a couple of corrections. All Out Attacks aren't invincible, they're basically armored dusts. Furious Actions are the invincible moves. And they already used up QC+2 buttons because they have EX attacks in the game. Not sure how they could've been able to implement both without using double quarter circles, but I would not mind hearing a solution. No sarcasm on that last statement.
 
Not that I disagree with these points, but a couple of corrections. All Out Attacks aren't invincible, they're basically armored dusts. Furious Actions are the invincible moves. And they already used up QC+2 buttons because they have EX attacks in the game. Not sure how they could've been able to implement both without using double quarter circles, but I would not mind hearing a solution. No sarcasm on that last statement.
Bah sorry, my P4A terminology is awful because I didn't touch the game beyond enough time with Kanji to figure out what I didn't like about it.

Supers with A+C / B+C / B+D / A+D? :^)
[edit] Or whatever combinations aren't used for EX attacks. Again, my terminology is awful.
 
one question @Mike_Z

did you like blazblue and if not for what reason?

also you designed this game entirely for it being intuitive yes? so makes other designers come up with half circles and even 360's(regarding the history of motions)? if its in your video i will watch it and not continue to bother you with my pedantic questions
 
Being fairly new to the SG community... I would have to say after seeing the video and reading all the comments here I cant understand some of the jargon used such as wave dashing frame delays and even the whole C.hp... Id have to say because of this thread... I have a new sense and appreciation for fighting games i mean i have played super smash brothers some MVC 2 & 3 and even... YOU GUESSED IT! SKULLGIRLS! But not to be sentimental or whatever that word is but im a hardcore FPS gamer and because of this thread and SG in general ive been leaning over to more fighting games... but if anyone can humor me and if i may ask what was the first fighting game ever made? Was it Mortal Kombat? im in a bind and would like to know and rather get it from here then google... the internet is a trippy place
 
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There was a move list in the game... it was in Tutorial :3
I am something-percent-sure that the game actually didn't drop with that and it was added in SDE.

So.
 
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