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I think it's funny how you said before last game vs fuzzy "start of round might be the only thing about this game i think about" obviously that's not really true but I do notice planning openings as something you do well and how that's something I should probably be doing instead of upbacking at round start every time
Have you considered using brass against dekillsage's team? Not only does he block beat extend pretty consistently but his approaches are often covered with fireballs and/or lock 'n' load which are very good at beating up beat extend
If you can manage to block his stuff without a dp assist, you might get a lot out of counter-calling his assist with brass (and punching through fireballs too)
nah
brass is worthless vs my team. You can't counter call with peacock when I always have access to LK shadow, and if I countercall him he's getting hit by counter hit LNL. Don't play brass against me unless you want big band to die faster.
Surely Peacock has plenty of tools with which to punish Fukua for getting predictable with her assist punishes (Unlike with beat extend where Fukua is probably already really close)
I don't play this character, but if I did I'd probably be trying counter-call brass followed by item drop or reacting to clones with argus
Beat extend isn't doing a lot either, for sure.
You react to argus with BFF for a full combo punish. You can react to every assist call including beat extend with blocking + counter call. I can do lk shadow ahead of time to make brass worthless if called. Item drop wont stop me from being able to counter call vs big band, and big band stays out so long that most of the time it doesn't even matter if she dropped it on my head or not. I'll just block it and lock out big band.
I think it's funny how you said before last game vs fuzzy "start of round might be the only thing about this game i think about" obviously that's not really true but I do notice planning openings as something you do well and how that's something I should probably be doing instead of upbacking at round start every time
I think what it is is that it's very common in this game that round start is the only time you ever play neutral. Sometimes someone gets a clean hit in the first second and rides a wave of setplay all the way to killing your whole team (see my first game vs Warped Echo at Paradise Lost). So I spend a lot of effort trying to figure out how to not get hit in the first second of the match. Conversely if you're a non-Peacock up against a Peacock, the first second of the match may be the only time you're not full screen away from her blocking fireballs, so you need to make it count.
Surely Peacock has plenty of tools with which to punish Fukua for getting predictable with her assist punishes (Unlike with beat extend where Fukua is probably already really close)
I don't play this character, but if I did I'd probably be trying counter-call brass followed by item drop or reacting to clones with argus
Beat extend isn't doing a lot either, for sure.
It's pretty easy as Peacock to mess people up for getting overzealous hitting your assist characters, as long as you have meter (and why would you ever not have meter). I'm not really sure about Brass in this matchup but I guess I could try it out in casuals against Sage.
My advice would be protect your assist more after calling it, play safer against high damage teams, and use sweep to hbomb-lbomb.
Protect your assist calls with either bombs or SOID (most likely SOID), bc its really safe, and if they tried punishing the assist call you can get great damage on them.
Safer play, as in using safe/safer setups (such as item drop setups) and less SSJ and more l beat extend in certail point BB circumstances. Try finding a setup that after a blocked item drop mixup you quicly backup and use your assist to start another item drop, which will lead back to a safe approach/safe mixup (something like this sounds good if possible). On point , in all situations except when BB is in throw range or your opponent is attacking DIRECTLY above your head, L extend is a better reversal. If you made the right read, then you did not spend a meter and get a confirm. If not then you get punished like SSJ would.
Sweep to H bomb - l bomb is amazing. it allows free upback against lows, avoids throw, and only loses to a super that is invincible for a looong time. Upback block- block or delay j.hp backdash also beats all supers except SSJ I believe. Why am i letting you know this?
Edit: if they push a normal in between hbomb and lbomb they will get counterhit, and you have a ton of time to confirm ughhhh
Sweep to H bomb - l bomb is amazing. it allows free upback against lows, avoids throw, and only loses to a super that is invincible for a looong time. Upback block- block or delay j.hp backdash also beats all supers except SSJ I believe. Why am i letting you know this?
When would be the best time to use this? At neutral when I think they're going to approach on the ground?
When would be the best time to use this? At neutral when I think they're going to approach on the ground?
The complete setup is safe to everything, EXCEPT if your opponent SSJs after the Lbomb. if they jab after bomb, you block with upback and they get hit by the hbomb. Every other part of the setup is a frame trap in peacocks favor.
also anytime you make they block and you wanna go fullscreen or pressure lol.
Played some games with Sage last night. I think I get the c.HK thing. Something I'll do pretty commonly with a M item charged is dash in, drop it, and throw some bombs. I think a lot of the time when I'd want to do that, c.HK xx bombs is a better option, since it goes a lot faster.
Lately it feels like Big Band has been doing more work than Peacock. Like I'll have a ton of games where Peacock flails around and dies without doing anything, then Big Band comes in and saves the day with le setplay. I had been playing a lot of point Big Band and solo Big Band to learn how to play Big Band, but I think I need to focus on learning how to play Peacock.
I think the big problem is the zoning patterns I'm using. People keep finding the gaps and jumping through them at times where I'm not expecting it. Up until now I've kind of been trying to use a one-size-fits-all approach to patterns, and only varying it to account for full screen options like double Car etc, but I'm starting to feel like that's no good. I need to vary to it account for things like jump arcs and instant air dashes and stuff. Throwing H Bomb before L Bomb might be fine in some matchups but in others I might want to throw the H Bomb second, or use M Bomb instead of L Bomb, or something. So for now the lab time I put in is gonna be focused on figuring all that out.
I'll preface what I'm going to say with 1) this may have been a strategy adopted vs Filia (or at least airdash rushdown characters that peacock might otherwise struggle with) since he used a more "conventional" zoning strategy vs my Big Band, and 2) maybe this isn't your playstyle, he has kind of been known for a more rushdown-oriented peacock but I want to put it out there:
I played a bunch of games with @Mr Peck at CB and he played a very interesting peacock. I wouldn't call it rushdown but it was like he never threw bombs that committed to zoning, or I guess I should say they weren't with the sole intent of zoning. It was almost like he was playing peacock as a trap character? He would throw out bombs that might keep you out, and if they did then it's all good, but a lot of the time it would be like the bombs were there to act as insurance when he made his move or teleported in or whatever. Again I don't think I'd call it rushdown since his "optimal" range seemed to be 1/2-3/4 screen, and he still didn't want you next to him or him next to you unless you were already hit, but it was really cool and maybe something to think about when vs someone who can get in on peacock really easily?
To help you out. Peck envisioned peacock to play like may. Which involved trapping enemies with projectiles/specials. He's rushdown in the sense he wanted peacock to set up her offense and go from there rather than zone.
I'm not the best zoner ever but I personally don't think your style of zoning suits your assist very well. I play Peacock the way I do partly because I think it's fun, and partly because I feel like it's one of the better ways to play her if you don't have an assist that fills in the gaps in her long range zoning patterns.
If I were you I'd either switch my zoning style to something that takes advantage of Beat Extend and doesn't care about the lack of long range assist, switch my assist to something that helps Peacock with her zoning, or do something a bit more extreme like adding a third character with a zoning assist or dropping Peacock altogether. I think keeping beat extend and trying to play from around half a screen away would be great, like how Pickles described. You could use it kind of like how I use Cerecopter, except you could be much more reckless with calling it because it has 4f of vulnerable assist startup instead of 22f.
So you could use it as your main way of safely charging an item and making them block an s.HP, and maybe even getting a bomb or two on screen. Kinda like the first second or two of this, but from a bit further away (max Beat Extend range or a bit further) and without the part where it goes into a lockdown thing and loops into itself.
Call beat extend and charge an M item, cancel an s.HP into a couple of bombs, hold onto the item while keeping them out with air normals or more bombs (with the threat of another beat extend if they go in), then eventually release the level 2 item and throw out more bombs and another beat extend while you reload another item. Stuff like that. This is all kinda matchup-dependent and maybe you just want to sit fullscreen and throw bombs against characters like Parasoul, but I feel like it's worth getting just close enough to your opponent that they have to worry about assists while blocking bombs.
Fair warning if you decide to do this: It doesn't deal a whole lot of chip damage, so you have to mix it up with 'normal' peacock zoning if your opponent is playing patient and blocking everything. Also, don't do it in the Peacock mirror. It's really hard to get close enough to get your lockdown up and running, and even if you do so, the other Peacock can just back off again and throw things at you.
Hmmmmmm I don't really want to zone from half screen away, that sounds terrible. Maybe I need a zoning assist. I should try to learn Robo, that's been on my to do list since forever anyways
I was bored, so I went through my matches from TSB last Saturday and made notes on all the stuff I did wrong. And then I kinda figured, well, I have all this text I wrote, I may as well put it in one of these threads. Not sure how often I'm going to update this thread if at all but I at least wanted to get all these notes somewhere.
Here's the video:
My notes:
Game 1 vs Shade
9:43 - I'm reacting to Shade's name being wrong on the stream, if you were wondering.
9:58 - Shade attempts to tiger knee a Bypass here (presumably, I can't imagine he wanted the ground version). I didn't notice this at the time and should have taken it as a sign that he was looking for a pattern that he could Bypass through. If I knew he was looking for Bypass I would have adjusted my patterns. This becomes relevant later.
10:18 - I should have let the item go here. As soon as the airplane whiffed I should have realized that H item was about to become irrelevant. I don't, and Shade gets close to me while I'm charging the wrong strength of item. This could have ended really bad for me.
10:21 - Again charging the wrong strength of item drop. Should have been M. Could have done my standard trick of charge M and then fake teleport to either punish an over aggressive approach or to get some space. Instead I just get hit.
10:34 - Missed a hit confirm into Argus.
10:55 - I think it's worth sacrificing a little health on Big Band here to eliminate the threat of level 3, it was Shade's only real way to get back in the game at this point.
11:07 - I mysteriously decide not to kill Parasoul and win the game. No clue what I was thinking. This is also the wrong spacing for this burst bait, it doesn't work in the corner.
Game 2 vs Shade
11:41 - The idea behind this opener is that j.HK will cover air approaches and Brass will cover ground approaches, but Big Band gets stuffed by Hairball assist. Maybe this isn't a good opener against this team. Feels like there should be a read here that could get me a happy birthday on Val and Filia but I can't think of one, and I'm not sure how much I want to lab it considering Val with Hairball assist isn't that common.
11:44 - Greedy as fuck teleport to get out of the corner. I should have gotten blown up for this. I might have been trying to make it safe with Big Band assist but of course he was on cooldown from being hit 3 seconds ago. Bad situational awareness on my part.
11:50 - I screw up throwing an M bomb, probably because it was still on cooldown. Wouldn't have worked anyways, the pattern I was going for loses to the Bypass that Shade does here. Item drop wasn't on cooldown, I should have done that instead. Would have stuffed Bypass.
12:02 - Really good Hairball call by Shade. I can't make my fake teleport safe with item drop because Filia takes the hit for him. I probably couldn't have beaten it with Brass either, it would have lost like it did earlier. Thinking about it more I should probably learn how to beat this assist, it's a real problem.
12:12 - How come no one can block this? Warped even says "same side" before I do it.
12:32 - I should have grabbed here. I know Shade likes to downback and call Pillar when he feels pressure. I wasn't thinking about that, I was thinking about the hit confirm off Brass I had just missed. Probably also getting inpatient because Shade was low on life, I might have thought I could do a blockstring into a special and chip him.
12:42 - lol why does anyone even get excited, of course I don't have these. I tried to make one up on the spot but H divekick doesn't side switch on assists. I haven't practiced these with any of my characters. I guess Squigly's is just [s.HK j.MP]xN according to Sage so I'll try that later.
13:08 - This setup is probably fine, Shade just guesses right (and I guess I'm wrong, he doesn't always downback, heh). But I point it out because there was no real reason not to call Peacock assist here for a better setup. Not used to having the team in this order.
13:11 - Should have cancelled into super here to kill. I don't think it would have killed on the last one but this one it would have for sure. Actually I don't think I even hit confirmed the Cymbal Clash, this looks like L Brass, which I do as a frame trap when Cymbals is blocked.
13:23 - I'm notoriously bad at reversals so I'm glad I was able to get one here when I really needed it. Getting an accidental jab and getting counter hit would have really sucked. Dropped the combo after though, oops.
13:44 - Everyone goes nuts here but I actually screwed this up. It's not a mixup, you can just combo into that jab. I just didn't get the link.
Game 3 vs Shade
14:25 - You can bait Bypass xx Scalpels like this but I didn't time it right. Annoying because that's the whole reason I did the fake teleport.
14:37 - Again not paying attention to my assists being on cooldown. Squigly was supposed to show up here but the red light was on. Need to pay more attention.
14:57 - I beat Bypass with item drop here so at least I made the adjustment even if I missed this earlier.
15:07 - Didn't DHC here because I wasn't confident that Big Band was really available to DHC into and also because I was worried about George screwing up the combo. The Argus xx Opera xx SSJ thing is cool but it's a bit inconsistent.
15:15 - Here I definitely could have done it and I think it's a mistake that I didn't.
15:27 - Can't help but be a little amused at Sage saying I'm too conservative with meter as I spend 4 bars in 9 in game seconds. He's right though.
Game 1 vs Killjoy
24:01 - I make a hard read on fireball super (a common Fukua opener vs Peacock) and j.LK to beat it. This was a bad idea for two reasons. One, Killjoy had tried this when I played him earlier and it didn't pan out, so naturally he would be hesitant to try it again. Two, the risk reward isn't there. If I'm right about the fireball I can just block and pushblock, which is what I did earlier; it's a safe option that leaves me up a bar and if I'm wrong it's not that risky. What I did instead was super risky and I get blown up for it. Killjoy lets me off the hook here but it could have gone much worse.
24:10 - Really good read by Killjoy that he oddly never attempts at any point for the rest of the set. I could have used s.HP instead of bombs here and left myself able to teleport if he went for BFF, but I wasn't thinking about that option.
24:19 - I thought I blocked this. I asked Killjoy if he made it hit same side. He didn't answer but he did smile. I think it hit same side.
24:24 - Worst possible decision here. The assist call was bad but not even thinking about the inevitable counter call Pillar I just j.HP without thinking. I'm lucky he wasn't in position to get both characters.
24:37 - lol i suck
24:43 - Yaya showed me how to get the confirm off this move midscreen, but I haven't practiced it enough. I don't even attempt it because I have no confidence I'll get it.
Game 2 vs Killjoy
25:45 - Not sure about this Argus. I had no way to do another super to kill Fukua. It worked out but I don't know if it's the right decision.
26:05 - Trying not to point out every drop but this one was really bad. This is such a common thing where the way someone gets in on me is I drop a combo. I was in control of this game and I lose it right here.
26:17 - Got real lucky to not lose Big Band. Not sure if the assist call was bad or not. It would have been great if I was blocking crossup overhead when I did it.
26:34 - I'm as surprised as anyone that this worked.
27:00 - This was the cool reset Warped has mentioned a couple times. I start by faking the cross under I always do then crossing back over. Then, the item drop hits one way and the jab hits on the other side. Warped and Sage don't even notice cause they're talking about Double. What's the point of playing on stream if people don't acknowledge your cool shit >:[
Game 3 vs Killjoy
Not a lot to say about this one actually, I think I played this about perfect. A few execution mistakes but that's about it. No mistakes in decision making that I can see.
Game 4 vs Killjoy
29:23 - I thought he was gonna open j.HP + call Pillar. Maybe I'm too used to fighting Keninblack. My read here doesn't work out but at least I don't get punished for it. A hard read here is a little more defensible than against Fukua because if Double does open j.HP + call assist there's not a ton of openers that beat it which aren't hard reads.
29:38 - I try to bait a car here. Killjoy doesn't take the bait. Fine by me, I'm in a good position either way. Apparently I would have gotten Sage with this.
29:55 - Starting from here I'm trying to zone without using Brass for a little bit so Big Band's health can recover. I'm not very confident in my solo Peacock zoning but I feel like I did a good job with it here.
30:37 - You know, I noticed during the Argus that Fukua hit the ground and I wasn't going to be able to do L George xx Argus, then by the time the Road Roller ends I forget it. Short term memory of a goldfish. At least I realize after throwing the bomb that Argus won't hit and I don't waste the meter.
Things to work on based on my notes here:
-Work on the situational combos more:
Big Band air grab
Tympani Drive
SSJ xx Lenny
Midscreen assist kills (with everyone)
Cymbal Clash (midscreen)
-Figure out what I can do against Hairball assist
-Pay more attention to when my assists aren't available
-Always spend the meter to kill (I'm good about this with Squigly and Big Band, not so much with Peacock)
-Use s.HP to bait BFF when Fukua is in range for it, cancel into teleport if she does it
-React to Inevitable Snuggle (someday...)
Just a quick question, whos a better peacock, you or worldjem?
Hmmmmmm I don't really want to zone from half screen away, that sounds terrible. Maybe I need a zoning assist. I should try to learn Robo, that's been on my to do list since forever anyways
Oh oh oh, I can show you robo things when beta lobbies aren't messed up
imo brass vs extend I'd probably take extend for a BB assist, if you want a zoning assist I agree with peck that a 3rd character is the way to go
When I said "switch my assist to something that helps Peacock with her zoning" I meant Brass. I really don't get why everyone thinks it's bad. It sounds like Dekillsage punishes it a lot, but has anyone gone into training mode and really tried to figure out how to bait and punish whatever he's doing?
When I said "switch my assist to something that helps Peacock with her zoning" I meant Brass. I really don't get why everyone thinks it's bad. It sounds like Dekillsage punishes it a lot, but has anyone gone into training mode and really tried to figure out how to bait and punish whatever he's doing?
I still think brass is decent, especially for peacock. But it can be locked out very easily. Watch negus fortune against a peacock player at NWM and negus cr.lk locks the assist out alot.
Also, the assist is actually punishable on hit, which isn't the biggest problem but it means you have to protect it for a very long time.
It's great in combos and countering assists though. And it covers peacocks deadzone, but it leaves the double jump and super jump area wide open which is how people will play against the assist.
It causes long range knockdown which allows the opponent to tech forward on hit towards peacock or when blocked it can be locked out easily.
So it isn't as cut and dried as it may seem. There are a fair amount of detriments to it.
If I had a strong feeling someone was going to lock out my brass with a light ground normal after blocking it, I would start charging an H item during brass and try to preemptively argus them in the face. If I guess wrong and they block it I can keep myself safe and get some chip damage, and if I guess right they take an argus into level 3 item into a full combo.
Edit: Or I would just Bang Bang Bang if there was enough time to hit them with that. That's what the move is for, after all.
I certainly agree that peacock can protect the assist well. But the fact that she does need to protect it is in itself a bit of a detriment as compared to something that always spawns next to her like H beam or laser or tear etc.
It's just food for thought. I'm not saying the assist is bad. Especially for peacock.
When I said "switch my assist to something that helps Peacock with her zoning" I meant Brass. I really don't get why everyone thinks it's bad. It sounds like Dekillsage punishes it a lot, but has anyone gone into training mode and really tried to figure out how to bait and punish whatever he's doing?
I'll at least run a set with Sage using Brass if only to say that I tried it and it doesn't work, lol
I think I figured something out last night. I hold my item drops too long. I noticed it while rewatching my set with sage from the other day, there were a ton of situations like "huh that wouldn't have hit me if I dropped the item I was charging". I also noticed it while playing fenster last night, later in the set I would start always dropping the item once he passed the threshold and once I started doing that I did a little better.
If I had a strong feeling someone was going to lock out my brass with a light ground normal after blocking it, I would start charging an H item during brass and try to preemptively argus them in the face. If I guess wrong and they block it I can keep myself safe and get some chip damage, and if I guess right they take an argus into level 3 item into a full combo.
Edit: Or I would just Bang Bang Bang if there was enough time to hit them with that. That's what the move is for, after all.
This a good food for thought set. Brass rarely gets directly punished, but some of its weaknesses are shown here.
This isn't to say brass is bad because it has weaknesses... All assists have weaknesses. Just a vid of a good player playing around it pretty well:
I also noticed it while playing fenster last night, later in the set I would start always dropping the item once he passed the threshold and once I started doing that I did a little better.
Absolutely would agree with this. Dropping the items even when they are smaller make for good defensive walls and were something I didn't figure out how to deal with last time I played TJ. I would not be surprised if upping your peacock play not only involved the general active neutral (that you're already exploring) but also using items a little differently too.
This isn't to say brass is bad because it has weaknesses... All assists have weaknesses. Just a vid of a good player playing around it pretty well:
As much as anyone would like the feel themselves after praise, I think this video actually shows the opposite and I think playing dhoppler at CB we both agree'd that Brass worked much better than BE. Just looking at the video, I think most of the times I get in were because of some error Peacock did on defense or me grabbing through a lot of DP assist calls, but almost every brass worked in his favor here. Admittedly no assist to counter call with, sure, but I think that even then there are a couple of times you see in the video where dhoppler covers the brass well with item drops. I'd just say that Peacock (on top of needing to be a little more active on defense) needs to be a little more active in trying to counter assist-punishes , but thats true for most non-Robo/Squigly characters I think.
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