Indivisible: Lab Zero's Action-RPG! (General Discussion)

[Squire Grooktook]

Okay uhh, is this a good question/discussion/thread post?*

One of the above posts from Mike says that there will be no instant death pits or anything like that, but will there be hazards during platforming that can harm you (ie subtract hp etc.), or are enemy combat sequences the only place where the player can die or be harmed?

*Won't ask anymore questions if not.

 

[Kai]

To nobody in particular, and everyone:

STOP SUGGESTING THINGS TO MIKE

He already said this himself, and you need to heed it. I swear to god, if you make Mike execute the Hermit-Programmer Protocol, I will lose my shit. This is not a collaborative effort. We're lucky enough to be let in on the process, so don't fuck this up for the people that can appreciate that for what it is.

Ponder. Query. Wonder aloud.

Do not suggest.

 

[Kit Ballard]

Woah, didn't mean to sound like we are demanding anything, especially for the prototype, just answering questions and discussing possibilities, cause it's fun. :P I'm perfectly sure you know what you are doing.

Yay, post #1000.

Pretty much what I was thinking. While I'm sure you know what you're doing and your team has their own vision of the mechanics, some of us was kind of was just rolling out what was on our minds. Like my post was in a way more like a hope the wall cling mechanic isn't like some of the older games where it's tricky to use.

Anyways. moving on *bows and steps out of the way*

 

[Sotherius]

So, i have a question... Exploration is a big factor on the game, and i love that.

So, i need to ask, the secrets will be deceiving like in SM, where you have to do something in every pixel of map to discover hidden paths, or you'll put small indications, or maybe some information trough npcs or something like that?

This is just a question on how player will have to approach the game. I personally love both ways of exploration. =P

 

[baldulf]

That axe climbing, so fresh and retro at the same time! How could I not love this game?

My only concern is that Alex wont dare to go wild with the character designs (given the yellow press level of the game media lately)

 

[Kai]

My only concern is that Alex wont dare to go wild with the character designs (given the yellow press level of the game media lately)

Remember, Mariel is both the Art and Animation lead on Indivisible. There's more to LZ's art than just Alex, talented though he may be.

 

[FakeangeL]

Weird, all shown so far has a very distinctive Ahad flavor so far.

 

[Denizen]

Remember, Mariel is both the Art and Animation lead on Indivisible. There's more to LZ's art than just Alex, talented though he may be.

Is there somewhere we can see the actual division of responsibility for this game? 'Cause it seems a little different than it was with Skullgirls.
Specifically the art direction, I wanna know who's imagining what, or at least who has most influence.

 

[ArgonBern]

So Mike said that in VP there were some mages that did all the same things.

So characters are going to be all unique in a certain way with no palette swaps, right? Right?

My only concern is that Alex wont dare to go wild with the character designs (given the yellow press level of the game media lately)

The gaming press is always looking for "scandals" these days, as in "OMG DIS GAIM HAZ TITS!!!! IZ 2 VIOLENT!!!!". There are some websites that appear to be decent at least but for the rest it's a farce, so screw it.

On another note I'm glad there is probably going to be no fanservice since I can't stand it most times.

 

[Mike_Z]

The axeclimbing looks like it would be a good argument against singlewall walljumps ;_;

It also is single walljumps, though. :^P
And yes, you can't gain height on one wall with just walljump.

E: Walljumping looks like it's faster than normal jumps tho; that could be interesting if there's sufficiently many platforms everywhere

Wall jump is the fastest type of forward movement in the prototype, yep.
Since you'd care about this kind of thing and she's designed around movement, currently it's set up like this:
On the ground she can run at up to 12px/frame, or dash at up to 20px/frame.
In the air, if you steer her you can accelerate her up to moving 10px/frame. If you are already moving faster than that you will not lose speed, but if you drop below 10 then you can't accelerate above 10 again. Jumping preserves your forward momentum, so if you dash jump you can move at 20 until you change direction, but if you jump standing still you can only accelerate up to 10.
Axe hang jump releases her at less than 10px/frame, so jumping off the axe is as slow as jumping from neutral.
Walljump puts her at 24px/frame so as long as you don't change direction that's the fastest she can go (120% of dash speed).
Jumping from slopes will affect your jump arc/speed positively or negatively a moderate amount, but will never result in you jumping with backward velocity when facing up a slope because that's annoying in Sonic.
Landing from a jump cuts your horizontal velocity in half, doesn't allow you to accelerate for 4f, and applies friction during those frames.
This means repeated hops is always slower than just dashing, but if a walljump travels for longer than 20 frames it is faster overall...and since she has barely reached the peak of her jump in 20 frames, walljumping is generally faster.

One of the above posts from Mike says that there will be no instant death pits or anything like that, but will there be hazards during platforming that can harm you (ie subtract hp etc.), or are enemy combat sequences the only place where the player can die or be harmed?

There will be hazards, and hazards can eventually kill you, but we're trying to avoid anything where you just straight up die for entering an area.
There will probably not be hazards in the prototype, though.
(Questions are fine!)

So Mike said that in VP there were some mages that did all the same things.

All mages were capable of exactly the same things.

So characters are going to be all unique in a certain way with no palette swaps, right? Right?

Playable characters? Yessir, no skimping here. (Unless they have to be twins for plot reasons or something, I'd guess.)

 

[Kai]

Is there somewhere we can see the actual division of responsibility for this game? 'Cause it seems a little different than it was with Skullgirls.
Specifically the art direction, I wanna know who's imagining what, or at least who has most influence.

Jon or Brian (I forget who) said in a post here on SH that it was a very collaborative effort, so I'm not sure you're gonna be able to demarcate each person's influence so easily. At this point, the only thing we know is that Mariel said she was out front on this one, and that Alex's heritage is the genesis of the visual concept.

I agree that it would be interesting to know how each of them describes the level and scope of their own influence, though.

 

[Denizen]

At this point, the only thing we know is that Mariel said she was out front on this one, and that Alex's heritage is the genesis of the visual concept.

Yeah Mariel Cartwright stepping up is what really stands out right now. I assumed at first that Alex Ahad was taking the usual role of writer and creative director, but now it seems like he's stepping aside for Mariel? I mean, if that's true then good for her but I don't want to see Alex just disappear. I'm probably worried over nothing, sorry.

My question really is, who does the art, lore, and characters of Indivisible belong to? (plz don't answer this with "the publisher") Who's brainchild is it, if it's any one person? (I'm assuming it's "everyone's" baby)
How involved is Alex in its creation?

 

[chickenwithtie]

If I remember correctly Mike said Kinu is leading it, but it's still the entire group participating. I honestly see the Kinu touch by the way the women are presented.
Skullgirls too was a group work even thought it started from Alex's personal idea.
Misfortune re-design I think was a group work, bu take this last one with a grain of salt since I don't remember source of the info. Maybe Mike can tell us, bless his poor soul

 

[KaboomKid]

A lot of the art in the trailer looked like Alex's style, and given the activity on his twitter (and just knowing this is the kind of creative subject matter he lives for), I think it's safe to say that he's still playing a big part of this game's development. Just because Mariel is taking the leadership role doesn't mean anyone else on the team disappears. This kind of hat-changing happens in the creative industry all of the time, and it's even one of the things that helped companies like Pixar stay successful for so long.

 

[Demifiend]

Will this game going to present multiple endings?, like in star ocean 2, just asking.

 

[Denizen]

Yeah Mariel being up front really shows in the art style. It still looks like Alex's art style but it lacks the exaggerated proportions you'd see in both the male and female characters.
I think that's very good for this type of game. (On an unrelated note, those more realistic proportions is actually why I see Mariel as more of an artistic inspiration for me than Alex.)

A lot of the art in the trailer looked like Alex's style, and given the activity on his twitter (and just knowing this is the kind of creative subject matter he lives for), I think it's safe to say that he's still playing a big part of this game's development. Just because Mariel is taking the leadership role doesn't mean anyone else on the team disappears.

That makes me feel a little better. Yeah I'm betting that Alex is behind all the stills and concept art that we're seeing before this game is finished. It's still a little unclear on where the writing is coming from, but if its a group effort like Chicken said, then I'm super excited. I love how Lab Zero works together, they make magic happen.

 

[DukeMagus]

The game looks as nimble as a Mega Man X title... that's AMAZING!

That being said, i have (another) question:

Since we have rpg-style battles, some numbers and calculations will be needed. Will the character "stats" be presented in a "straightforward" (ex. dmg = x-y, def = reduces x points of dmg, etc.) or more "esoteric" way (a.k.a Squaresoft style where there are a big ammount of status numbers and you need to do the number crunching to know how each stats affect your character)?

 

[Mike_Z]

Misfortune re-design I think was a group work, bu take this last one with a grain of salt since I don't remember source of the info. Maybe Mike can tell us, bless his poor soul

As far as I know all of the character designs and model sheets for SG were Alex, including all redesigns from Filia on. (I would have voted for keeping old Fortune. :^)

Since we have rpg-style battles, some numbers and calculations will be needed. Will the character "stats" be presented in a "straightforward" (ex. dmg = x-y, def = reduces x points of dmg, etc.) or more "esoteric" way (a.k.a Squaresoft style where there are a big ammount of status numbers and you need to do the number crunching to know how each stats affect your character)?

Straightforward, if there are stats, for two reasons: one, it's much easier to implement and remember how it works; and two, it's much easier to find problems.
There are currently no extra stats, damage is just damage. A better weapon does more damage, a stronger enemy has more health, a Strength spell would do 10 extra points of damage per hit, an armor would reduce the damage per hit by 1 point, etc. That's generally the type of system I prefer for action RPGs because the effects of things are very clear, and you don't even have to KNOW numbers, just "this weapon is better".
And defense/etc would be additive rather than multiplicative, multiplicative is how you get brokenness.

 

[Immortails]

I'm gonna be a complete butthole here and compare the super early prototype of the game to Dust: An Elysian Tail (Great game btw).

Ajna looks like she lacks momentum when she's moving, kinda. She doesn't run exactly, but sort of plods along and does that twitchy thing for fine adjusting. In Dust, everything has momentum, for example the way Dust moves and lands and jumps has a weight to it. Ajna looks like a kind of dainty character, in the sense that while she looks nice with the backgrounds, she's easy to be defeated, where as in Dust, you look like a powerful mofo, are set up as a powerful mofo, and are a powerful mofo.

It's probably just the SG sounds throwing me off, but meh.

 

[baldulf]

I'm gonna be a complete butthole here and compare the super early prototype of the game to Dust: An Elysian Tail (Great game btw).

Ajna looks like she lacks momentum when she's moving, kinda. She doesn't run exactly, but sort of plods along and does that twitchy thing for fine adjusting. In Dust, everything has momentum, for example the way Dust moves and lands and jumps has a weight to it. Ajna looks like a kind of dainty character, in the sense that while she looks nice with the backgrounds, she's easy to be defeated, where as in Dust, you look like a powerful mofo, are set up as a powerful mofo, and are a powerful mofo.

It's probably just the SG sounds throwing me off, but meh.

I dont think they are looking for anything similar to Dust. The speed and pace is perfectly fine for a Metroid inspired game.

If anything compare it to Guacamelee (the best game in its genre in recent years) and you would see that the movement is very similar.

 

[@J-Boogie]

I'm gonna be a complete butthole here and compare the super early prototype of the game to Dust: An Elysian Tail (Great game btw).

Ajna looks like she lacks momentum when she's moving, kinda. She doesn't run exactly, but sort of plods along and does that twitchy thing for fine adjusting. In Dust, everything has momentum, for example the way Dust moves and lands and jumps has a weight to it. Ajna looks like a kind of dainty character, in the sense that while she looks nice with the backgrounds, she's easy to be defeated, where as in Dust, you look like a powerful mofo, are set up as a powerful mofo, and are a powerful mofo.

It's probably just the SG sounds throwing me off, but meh.

It is kind of weird to say Ajna looks too dainty considering the entire history of jrpgs. And video games. And anime.

 

[chickenwithtie]

You must have not played many games if you think dainty characters are automatically weak
That is the weirdest argument I've readi n this thread so far, Klayman in the neverhood takes the heaviest footsteps I ever saw in a game, yet he doesn't look very powerful?

Spoiler: A washed up nerd

 

[Squire Grooktook]

Dust looked lanky and skinny as heck though, I wouldn't say he looked especially muscular or physically imposing compared to Ajna.

I usually take the attitude "in a world with magic or super advanced technology, there's no reason to think a person's outward appearance would correspond to their abilities". Of course, character design should give you an idea of what the character does, but I don't think Ajna looks like a typically fast, "balanced" kind of platformer character.

 

[Meow-Professor]

You must have not played many games if you think dainty characters are automatically weak

To be fair, I don't think that this is necessarily a bad argument.
If a character is very thin with no muscles or anything, small, or young, you'd assume that they are not very strong. While a character can be dainty and be strong as well, you can't really design a character to be very lanky or skinny and expect your audience to believe they can be physically threatening. If you had to choose between fighting a cute young anime girl that can't weigh more than 90 pounds or a wrestler or something, you're going to pick the girl. Sure, the girl might have magic, but her outward appearance conveys the fact that she isn't physically strong.
That doesn't mean she isn't powerful, since she has magic, but if you were to get in a normal fist fight with her, you probably would win.

I don't have much of a problem with Ajna's design, as her legs look fairly strong and muscled (fitting for the amount of walking she'll be doing), but I could understand why someone would have a problem with a character design because they don't look like they could be doing the activities in the game.

 

[Squire Grooktook]

That doesn't mean she isn't powerful, since she has magic, but if you were to get in a normal fist fight with her, you probably would win.

Magic invisible muscles. She could actually lift an elephant.

Or Nanomachines.

I agree with what you're saying though, just that I don't think it's an issue so long as it's not taken so far, and I think that Ajna's design is pretty good.

 

[Sotherius]

I mean, is not like the game already has a super buff girl that will probably be part of ajna's team...

Ajna to me looks like a determined and simple person, and i think that is what who designed her wants me to believe.

 

[chickenwithtie]

Oh come on, seriously? If you lack the understanding of basic character designs you must have been blind or never encountered media in your whole life. It's everywhere in videogames, movies, comics, cartoons.

If the character is not a mass of muscles it will have some other way to combat; weapons, magic and stuff.

Anja is the usual protagonist: a young person with a body in the norm learning new things and meeting new friends as her adventure goes, like, say, Simon from Gurren Lagann or Jonathan Joestar
Zebei is the archer character: athletic young look, uses a weapon that requires precision; same as Legolas from Lord of the Rings
But Disney is the most obvious example here, take characters like Facilier or Jafar: they're walking sticks with menacing, bizarre looks. You know they're villains and you know they don't use physical strenght. Infact, they use magic for sketchy purposes :Y

 

[Not-So-Saint]

I'm really stoked for huge buffed female character. Can't quite remember many of those in games. Funnily enough fighters lack them too although you would think that FGs are obvious place to have them in a first place. Actually SG could use some more variety in that regard but oh well.

 

[Meow-Professor]

Oh come on, seriously? If you lack the understanding of basic character designs you must have been blind or never encountered media in your whole life. It's everywhere in videogames, movies, comics, cartoons.

If the character is not a mass of muscles it will have some other way to combat; weapons, magic and stuff.

Anja is the usual protagonist: a young person with a body in the norm learning new things and meeting new friends as her adventure goes, like, say, Simon from Gurren Lagann or Jonathan Joestar
Zebei is the archer character: athletic young look, uses a weapon that requires precision; same as Legolas from Lord of the Rings
But Disney is the most obvious example here, take characters like Facilier or Jafar: they're walking sticks with menacing, bizarre looks. You know they're villains and you know they don't use physical strenght. Infact, they use magic for sketchy purposes :Y

If you want to talk about character designs, you have to agree that this is a bad idea. If you make your character look weak, your players are going to feel weak.
You cannot have such a large disconnect between how a character looks and how they act. If they look like they could barely lift a box, then you can assume that it will not look correct if they swing a heavy sword.

Weapons are not a way to make a weak character viable in battle. If they aren't strong enough to put enough force behind their weapon, they're going to have difficulty doing damage against enemies with armor or protection. You can't give an axe to my hypothetic 90 pound anime girl and expect her to get through dragon scales or metal armor.
Magic is a good middle point to this; your character doesn't need to do any physical fighting, and usually the power behind magic is something mental, not physical. It makes sense for the anime girl to use magic instead of a sword, since she doesn't need to wield any heavy weaponry.

I don't know how you are comparing Simon's or Ajna's body type to someone like Jonathan? Jonathan is very muscular and is not at all similar to Simon or Ajna. He fights physically so it makes sense that he must be muscular.
Legolas' design makes more sense than someone like Zebei's. Legolas is an elf, so under the lore of the story, he is lanky, skinny, and tall. Zebei, to my knowledge, is not any specific race, and he is at least somewhat muscular, fitting of the "agile/athletic" theme.

I don't understand your point about Disney, however. Yes, these evil people use magic, which is why they have such skinny body types. Their magic use is established beforehand, and they aren't in a position that would make you expect them to be muscular (I.E. a position in the military). If we have our young anime girl in an anime where she goes on an adventure and does lots of walking, you would expect her legs to have some muscles by the end of the day. These villians have been shown to have plenty of servants, so you won't expect physical fitness from them.

 

[Kai]

I'm interested about Ajna's background. Is her combat readiness a product of her culture just naturally teaching this kind of thing to women, or did her father raise her non-traditionally? Is she an Amazon, of sorts? A member of an all-female warrior caste in her religion?

Also, personality... she seems to be frowning, a lot. That's good. She's a fighter.

 

[Denizen]

I'm interested about Ajna's background. Is her combat readiness a product of her culture just naturally teaching this kind of thing to women, or did her father raise her non-traditionally?

Her father is the town guardian so I assumed that he raised her tough, I'm also assuming that she's inherently tough herself.
There are some things you can't teach.

 

[The Dave]

Weapons are not a way to make a weak character viable in battle. If they aren't strong enough to put enough force behind their weapon, they're going to have difficulty doing damage against enemies with armor or protection. You can't give an axe to my hypothetic 90 pound anime girl and expect her to get through dragon scales or metal armor.

Might be relevant, I recall a Dungeons and Dragons Feat (Finesse) that lets you use Dexterity instead of Strength for attack rolls. Basically, you don't hit hard, but you hit where it hurts. See also Raphael from Soul Calibur.

This means, conceivably, we can have a waifu with Waif Fu!

As far as big, muscled women in videogames... eh, I play a lot of RPG's where you create your own character, so I'm a little biased. I almost always end up playing "Chick with a Giant Hammer." Hell, I'm planning an Eliza-themed Skyrim run and will probably end up using large battle-axes to emulate the Staff of Ra. I based my Saints Row characters on Mystique and She-Hulk. Even my Dragon Age necromancer she-elf ended up looking like Sauron, so... yeah.

 

[Jason]

If you want to talk about character designs, you have to agree that this is a bad idea. If you make your character look weak, your players are going to feel weak.
You cannot have such a large disconnect between how a character looks and how they act. If they look like they could barely lift a box, then you can assume that it will not look correct if they swing a heavy sword.

Weapons are not a way to make a weak character viable in battle. If they aren't strong enough to put enough force behind their weapon, they're going to have difficulty doing damage against enemies with armor or protection. You can't give an axe to my hypothetic 90 pound anime girl and expect her to get through dragon scales or metal armor.
Magic is a good middle point to this; your character doesn't need to do any physical fighting, and usually the power behind magic is something mental, not physical. It makes sense for the anime girl to use magic instead of a sword, since she doesn't need to wield any heavy weaponry.

I don't see this at all. Making the character or player feel powerful is a lot more about giving the character's attacks the proper amount of weight and impact with proper use of hitsounds, screen-shake, hitstop, etc. than it is about the character's body type. Look at somebody like Makoto Nanaya from Blazblue her attacks hit like a ton of bricks, she slams and bounces her opponent around during her combos like a rubber ball but she's built like your typical 90 pound anime girl. She still feels satisfying to use and doesn't give the impression of her being frail at all.

And FYI in real life you are never going to cut though proper metal armor with an axe no matter how strong you are. Not when somebody is wearing it.

 

[chickenwithtie]

Jonathan is an example of protagonist that evolves, and characters that evolve are never a bad idea, on countrary! Jojo is a wimp in his teen years and later learns new stuff and becomes more powerful to win against Dio, and he -technically- doesn't use brutal force, but a semi-magic technique.
Also "not strong looking" characters being a bad idea? Since when? Finn, Scott Pilgrim or Mario work insanely well and they don't have the Rambo look.

 

[Denizen]

I don't understand the argument that's happening right now.

 

[Meow-Professor]

I don't see this at all. Making the character or player feel powerful is a lot more about giving the character's attacks the proper amount of weight and impact with proper use of hitsounds, screen-shake, hitstop, etc. than it is about the character's body type. Look at somebody like Makoto Nanaya from Blazblue her attacks hit like a ton of bricks, she slams and bounces her opponent around during her combos like a rubber ball but she's built like your typical 90 pound anime girl. She still feels satisfying to use and doesn't give the impression of her being frail at all.

She isn't really a proper example since, even though she's very thin, she's still, in her official art, drawn fairly muscular.
You can be thin and still be muscular, but the problem lies more with characters who are just thin.
I also didn't mean to imply that a character must be muscular to feel satisfying. I'm just saying you can't have a disconnect between the design of a character and what they are capable of.

 

[chickenwithtie]

How can you find disconnections between a character and their powers when you know nothing of the character and their powers

 

[Denizen]

I think there's a disconnection between what everybody thinks the others are saying and what they're actually saying.

 

[Meow-Professor]

How can you find disconnections between a character and their powers when you know nothing of the character and their powers

I never insulted Ajna's design, I just said I could understand why someone would feel that way about a design (in this case Ajna's) (Or is this referring to something else?)

 

[chickenwithtie]

I think there's a disconnection between what everybody thinks the others are saying and what they're actually saying.

When huge posts start to appear people stops reading, but not writing. I love the internet