Indivisible: Lab Zero's Action-RPG! (General Discussion)

[abc]

Segwaying topics, as Kai said, I do enjoy Anja frowning a lot. It's a rare thing to see it on female characters in games, especially main characters. And Anja does seem like the very determined type, which I really like. Hopefully her personality shows this in the game. Hopefully.
She actually kinda reminds me of characters like Bullet from Blazblue, or some other tough girls. I mean, I'm all for more tough girls.
Also, I know Zebei is the archer and friend of Anja, and since he and the tiger-themed character appear right next to Anja in the trailer, perhaps the tiger-themed one is important as well? He's clearly using fire, which is neat. Hoping he's related in some way to them, since he and Zebei show up together on top of all the others. That or it's just coincidence.

 

[Kyugetsuki]

I'm just saying you can't have a disconnect between the design of a character and what they are capable of.

Actually, ever watched Pippi Longstocking? The main character is unimaginably thin yet shes ridiculously strong.

 

[Denizen]

She actually kinda reminds me of

Can we please stop doing this? Please.
I know you think it's a compliment , but it's not.

He's clearly using fire, which is neat.

I'm pretty sure that's a she.

 

[abc]

I'm pretty sure that's a she.

She? I assume it could be. I just kinda thought the shaman with the tiger theme, what I kind of assumed to be dreadlocks, at least from the two in the front, and I couldn't really define breasts or anything...
Well, either way, that's fine. I still wonder about the relevance of the character, though.

Can we please stop doing this? Please.
I know you think it's a compliment , but it's not.

D-Did I do something wrong? Is this some problem from earlier in the thread? I only just got on this thread, and I didn't really have time to read every post. Sorry, I guess.

 

[WaterMystic277]

D-Did I do something wrong? Is this some problem from earlier in the thread? I only just got on this thread, and I didn't really have time to read every post. Sorry, I guess.

Comparisons really get people going and it just isn't polite to compare an artist's design to something else, unless they were in fact going for something like that, like a fan character being very 'canon-like' i guess.

 

[chillbean]

ok tho

If a character is very thin with no muscles or anything, small, or young, you'd assume that they are not very strong.

This is true.

If you make your character look weak, your players are going to feel weak.

I don't think this is so true tho.

I think you're ignoring a more important contributor to how powerful you feel when a playing a game, which is their abilities/gameplay, and not their visual design. A good example would be Filia, who looks fairly nervous and not in control during a lot of her movements and attacks, yet she's still very threatening from a gameplay stand point.
Conversely, in the Lara Croft reboot, there's an effort to make you feel as vulnerable and weak as possible for a good part of the game. Lara always looks like an athletic young woman, tho she is injured, but because of the gameplay: things like her walk speed and her lack of weapons, you feel more at risk.

You cannot have such a large disconnect between how a character looks and how they act.

Strongly disagree. I think you're forgetting the appeal of subversion when designing a character design. I think the point that chicken was getting at is that 'good' character design can convey a characters strength or capability through more than just their muscle mass e.g. by having access to magic or weapons.
But I think this is just one very traditional inside-the-box way of looking at character design. Not that its bad, it can be very useful. But having a character with abilities or personality that completely play against their design can be very engaging and are used just as frequently.
How many times in tv or film is there a big tough guy who, in a shock twist!!!, is actually a big softie? Subverting the audiences/gamers expectation of a characters personality and surprising them is a fast way to get them to have an opinion and be more invested in a character. Good examples of this are lots of characters in Ace Attorney games, and pretty much the entire cast of the Dangan Ronpa games.
In the same way as subversion and wacky choices can be good for character design from a personality/story point of view, they can also work for gameplay.
You say:

You can't give an axe to my hypothetic 90 pound anime girl and expect her to get through dragon scales or metal armor.

but what if she could, because fuck it she's a video game character. I might play that game :)

 

[@J-Boogie]

This person. They get it.

 

[chillbean]

For the record, you can design a character with the intention of subverting your audience, and it can still be a bad design. It comes down to a number of things, and I think as this becomes more common more bad examples pop up.

Bringing it back to Indivisible, maybe the reason she frowning is because of her other, more carnal side, the one with three eyes. I'm looking forward to seeing the full visual art of Ajna in that form personally.

 

[Kai]

Bringing it back to Indivisible, maybe the reason she frowning is because of her other, more carnal side, the one with three eyes.

I think the word you were looking for was, "primal."

"Carnal," would make for a very different game :P

 

[Meow-Professor]

I don't think this is so true tho.

I think you're ignoring a more important contributor to how powerful you feel when a playing a game, which is their abilities/gameplay, and not their visual design. A good example would be Filia, who looks fairly nervous and not in control during a lot of her movements and attacks, yet she's still very threatening from a gameplay stand point.
Conversely, in the Lara Croft reboot, there's an effort to make you feel as vulnerable and weak as possible for a good part of the game. Lara always looks like an athletic young woman, tho she is injured, but because of the gameplay: things like her walk speed and her lack of weapons, you feel more at risk.

I don't want to make it seem like a majority of how the players feel is based on character design. I understand other things effect how players feel, but for me, character design is very important.

Strongly disagree. I think you're forgetting the appeal of subversion when designing a character design. I think the point that chicken was getting at is that 'good' character design can convey a characters strength or capability through more than just their muscle mass e.g. by having access to magic or weapons.
But I think this is just one very traditional inside-the-box way of looking at character design. Not that its bad, it can be very useful. But having a character with abilities or personality that completely play against their design can be very engaging and are used just as frequently.
How many times in tv or film is there a big tough guy who, in a shock twist!!!, is actually a big softie? Subverting the audiences/gamers expectation of a characters personality and surprising them is a fast way to get them to have an opinion and be more invested in a character. Good examples of this are lots of characters in Ace Attorney games, and pretty much the entire cast of the Dangan Ronpa games.
In the same way as subversion and wacky choices can be good for character design from a personality/story point of view, they can also work for gameplay.

I don't think this is a very good example. Contrast between personality and appearance is fine, since there is no way of knowing how the character acts or feels beforehand. This is the reason why I love characters like Kanji from Persona; it is predictable, but if done well, can make for a very interesting character.
Contrast between appearance and ability is a different story, IMO. You can tell pretty well by looking at someone what they are physically capable of. This bothers me more because it doesn't seem plausible that a character who is young, small, and looks weak to be realistically capable of doing things in the game. Personality, though, isn't directly tied to appearance like physical ability is. You can act however you want while looking like however you want. However, if you see someone with lots of muscles, you know without a doubt that they are probably strong.

My problem is I can't really get immersed if the characters are doing things they shouldn't be realistically capable of. I know some people find it interesting that a little girl can swing a giant sword and stand her ground against tons of evil monsters, but I just can't help but think it is a bit silly.

 

[Midiman]

My problem is I can't really get immersed if the characters are doing things they shouldn't be realistically capable of. I know some people find it interesting that a little girl can swing a giant sword and stand her ground against tons of evil monsters, but I just can't help but think it is a bit silly.

I don't understand how Ajna seems incapable of doing the things she's doing in this game. You do not have to have an extreme amount of muscle to traverse or use a tool. She can be extremely determined for example, or since Mike kind of hinted at this, it could be the familiar's she's bonded with giving her power(s). C'mon...

It's kind of ridiculous to expect anyone to concede make gameplay less fun for accuracy, too.

EDIT: Everytime someone compares this game to [X], I die a little inside; Please, y'all, can we just, not :I. This thread goes from fair question to outlandish assumption or it'd be great if [X] was happened and it's not very interesting to read or contributes too much.

Game design / implementation stuff after the fact makes sense but when we nitpick on things we aren't 100% sure about I just, but like, why :U

 

[chillbean]

I don't want to make it seem like a majority of how the players feel is based on character design. I understand other things effect how players feel, but for me, character design is very important.

Sure, I get that. We all have different reasons why we like different characters. One of the things I was trying to argue was that visual design =/= character design, rather a part of it that has to compliment writing and gameplay etc.

My problem is I can't really get immersed if the characters are doing things they shouldn't be realistically capable of. I know some people find it interesting that a little girl can swing a giant sword and stand her ground against tons of evil monsters, but I just can't help but think it is a bit silly.

That's cool, we have very different tastes then I guess. I personally love games or characters where you kind of have to suspend you're disbelief and just go with the wacky flow and then KAPOW its all subverted by something realistic and grounded.
Just curious, how would you feel if Kanji turned out to be a magic based/healer character? Would you have been disappointed?

I think the word you were looking for was, "primal."

"Carnal," would make for a very different game :P

ayyyyyy lmao you never know fingers crossed maaaan
jk yeah you're right oops lol

Since I keep going off topic: here's this for anyone who hasnt seen it

https://twitter.com/x/status/632819185031057408

 

[Meow-Professor]

I don't understand how Ajna seems incapable of doing the things she's doing in this game. You do not have to have an extreme amount of muscle to traverse or use a tool. She can be extremely determined for example, or since Mike kind of hinted at this, it could be the familiar's she's bonded with giving her power(s). C'mon...

It's kind of ridiculous to expect anyone to concede make gameplay less fun for accuracy, too.

I actually never insulted her design or its accuracy (I actually mention multiple times I really like it, and I do), this started by me replying to someone who did feel this way, saying while I don't agree with it, I can see why someone would have a problem with a design because of it.
And I do like her design a lot- interesting and really well done. I also really like the designs of the characters pictured next to her in the trailer as well, especially the person in the tiger pelt. Zebei is the only person I think is a bit bland, but otherwise they're all nice.

So is that animation a normal punch, or something else? I didn't think she would be able to fight without weapons, so that is cool.

 

[Kai]

I agree with the sentiment that characters should have a physicality that matches their abilities, but the nature of Ajna's design isn't so dainty that I feel she'd be incapable of the feats she's putting on.

I think it's just preference, on that scale of believability. Both Alex and Mariel heavily favor feminine, attractive designs for their female characters, whereas characters I like (and have designed) are more rough and threatening. They're drawing Ajna just about as rough as she can be, though, before I think they'd stop liking the designs, themselves.

 

[Denizen]

Thanks for being one of the few people talking any sense, Kai.

 

[DukeMagus]

Straightforward, if there are stats, for two reasons: one, it's much easier to implement and remember how it works; and two, it's much easier to find problems.
There are currently no extra stats, damage is just damage. A better weapon does more damage, a stronger enemy has more health, a Strength spell would do 10 extra points of damage per hit, an armor would reduce the damage per hit by 1 point, etc. That's generally the type of system I prefer for action RPGs because the effects of things are very clear, and you don't even have to KNOW numbers, just "this weapon is better".
And defense/etc would be additive rather than multiplicative, multiplicative is how you get brokenness.

Thank you on that one! I spent a good time without understanding numbers in final Fantasy-like games because in no help menu or manual they said how much each stat influenced the character. Granted, I could beat the game without knowing it, but it felt uselessly hidden.

About multipliers, you reminded me of another way it is used that also screw things up: percentages. It can really mess with a good formula.

An rts example is age of mythology: percentage based defense felt way worse than point based defense like in AoE2


Also a curious tidbit: I didn't knew you were the 13th member of the forum. MikeZ is the REAL number 13 then?

 

[Denizen]

Since I keep going off topic: here's this for anyone who hasnt seen it

YESSSSSSS, SHE'S OBVIOUSLY PRACTICED MARTIAL ARTS

 

[alexpi]

I think the word you were looking for was, "primal."

"Carnal," would make for a very different game :P

Skullgirls?

 

[ArgonBern]

Everytime I come here there's an argument I don't understand. I just wanna see more of this game...

 

[Midiman]

YESSSSSSS, SHE'S OBVIOUSLY PRACTICED MARTIAL ARTS

This sounds like you're trying to advance the things from the previous page instead of like, talking about the frame.

Thanks for being one of the few people talking any sense, Kai.

When you do stuff like this, it.. really doesn't further the conversations. It's like actually writing +1

Everytime I come here there's an argument I don't understand. I just wanna see more of this game...

There's not much to talk about, so people get excited about what-if's, and additionally, talking about the (lack of) game mechanics or discussing how things are implemented or asking key questions leads people to talk about other games because, well, it's related!

Like, for example, that frame can mean like tons of things-- can she punch? in combat? out of combat? as a free move? part of a super? will they draw items over it? Whoa!

 

[CatfishZealot]

...So what are Ajna's powers anyways? I apologize if this was already answered on a previous page where I have somehow overlooked it.

 

[Mike_Z]

Ajna looks like she lacks momentum when she's moving, kinda. She doesn't run exactly, but sort of plods along and does that twitchy thing for fine adjusting. In Dust, everything has momentum, for example the way Dust moves and lands and jumps has a weight to it.

Dust has 1-2 second long settling animations upon returning to idle from movement/jump/etc. He twitches plenty into and out of those for fine adjusting, go tap the stick. Without those settles it's the same....so....sure?

Like, for example, that frame can mean like tons of things-- can she punch? in combat? out of combat? as a free move? part of a super? will they draw items over it? Whoa!

Yes, yes, yes, yes, no, no. :^)

...So what are Ajna's powers anyways? I apologize if this was already answered on a previous page where I have somehow overlooked it.

Not yet explained.

 

[Denizen]

This sounds like you're trying to advance the things from the previous page instead of like, talking about the frame.

Wow sorry about wanting to talk about something that I actually know about, instead of being like everyone else and point out the same things and make the same theories, fuck.

I'm assuming this frame of animation means that she can fight unarmed, I wonder how strong that is compared to using a weapon, maybe it has it's own advantages.
Is that what you wanted to hear?

 

[Immortails]

Dust has 1-2 second long settling animations upon returning to idle from movement/jump/etc. He twitches plenty into and out of those for fine adjusting, go tap the stick. Without those settles it's the same....so....sure?

I mighta worded it wrong, what I was probably talking about was Ajna's lack of these things. In Dust though, you never really need to adjust finely, or at least I never needed to.

I'm just gonna reserve judgment on any more things until more gameplay is released, so I stop looking like an idiot.

 

[Denizen]

Be sorry, your attitude is asscheeks.

If I'm not breaking the rules then mind your own business.

Now if we're past that, I'd like to wonder, or dare I ask, how many frames of animation this game will have compared to Skullgirls? I know there's much more to animation than just the number of frames, but I'd like to know how much more or less Mariel and the rest of the animation department has on their plate this time.

 

[Mike_Z]

how many frames of animation this game will have compared to Skullgirls? I know there's much more to animation than just the number of frames, but I'd like to know how much more or less Mariel and the rest of the animation department has on their plate this time.

Ajna is like 310 frames so far, but she's got lots of movement and different attack sets. For comparison, the Hungry Ghost has about 85 frames. There is FAR less to an individual character in a game like this than there is to a fighting game character, especially for monsters....but....each character requires learning to animate (or clean up) a new character, rather than getting used to drawing Ms. Fortune and then working on her for a few months.
Total frames depends on total characters, of course.

 

[CaioLugon]

If I'm not breaking the rules then mind your own business.

- No Defamation and/or Personal Attacks
- No Threats of bodily harm
- No Badgering/Harassing Anyone

You do these things quite often.

This is really not the place to bring this up, but you're walking a fine line with that attitude of yours (the threat of bodily harm thing might be stretching it but I think I remember you talking about punching someone). I'd just be a little more mindful if I were you, people are not very happy.

 

[skull person]

Moderator Problems and Rule Clarification Requests ^^;

 

[Magma442]

Ok I come back ti the thread and theres fighting...yup

So in short what did I miss because I have a few questions so sorry if this has been answered.

1. What type of magic will there be?
2. Any estimate guess on how many partners or is that kept secret
3. will Animated cut scenes be a thing or will all cut-scenes be done in game?
4. If it is like Metroidvania will there be some kind of reward for collecting things?

 

[Sotherius]

I'll repeat my question about exploration, i hope i'm not being annoying.

You know, in super metroid, while you don't have the X-ray thing (and in fusion and zero mission while you don't have the power bomb), a lot of rooms and secrets, are so well hidden, that you need to bomb square by square to find a way into stuff.

My question is, the game will have this approach to exploration, with things so well hidden, that only if you use something and verify manualy every single corner you'll find everything, or the game will do the more common exploration, with the obvious not so obvious"you may want to hit this wall or walk left here", or with npcs or anything in game telling you where to go?

 

[MooseHogBro]

Question; Will Ajna have alternate costumes?

 

[skull person]

When people start breaking the game and finding serious exploits for the purposes of speed running, will you be patching the game to remove them or leaving it alone for the speed running community to have a consistent version to practice?

 

[Immortails]

I'll repeat my question about exploration, i hope i'm not being annoying.

You know, in super metroid, while you don't have the X-ray thing (and in fusion and zero mission while you don't have the power bomb), a lot of rooms and secrets, are so well hidden, that you need to bomb square by square to find a way into stuff.

My question is, the game will have this approach to exploration, with things so well hidden, that only if you use something and verify manualy every single corner you'll find everything, or the game will do the more common exploration, with the obvious not so obvious"you may want to hit this wall or walk left here", or with npcs or anything in game telling you where to go?

It's a Metroidvania-esque game, isn't it? So if it was, it'd be safe to assume that exploration would be a pretty sizable factor.

I just went back on what I said, but oh well.

 

[Denizen]

Thanks for the answer, Mike!

 

[Magma442]

One thing that can make or break a metroidvaina is how it assists you with finding things. To little and players will have a hard time collecting everything. too much and theres no reward. So will there be a steady balance with how exploration and exploration assistance?

 

[Mike_Z]

1. What type of magic will there be?
2. Any estimate guess on how many partners or is that kept secret
3. will Animated cut scenes be a thing or will all cut-scenes be done in game?
4. If it is like Metroidvania will there be some kind of reward for collecting things?

1. Not revealed yet.
2. Not revealed yet.
3. If not all, the vast majority of cutscenes will be done in-game, animated cutscenes cost a LOT of money.
4. No bikini pictures, but maybe?

You know, in super metroid, while you don't have the X-ray thing (and in fusion and zero mission while you don't have the power bomb), a lot of rooms and secrets, are so well hidden, that you need to bomb square by square to find a way into stuff.

That's because those are SECRETS.
Super Metroid makes a very large distinction between what you need and what is secret. The upgrades, most of which you need to complete the game, are actually very nicely shown to you - things like the Charge Beam being made insanely obvious via camera framing and the blocks being different, or the orange guys crawling out of the Ice Beam hole, etc. Only optional secret-secrets are expressly hidden in the bomb-everywhere way.

My question is, the game will have this approach to exploration, with things so well hidden, that only if you use something and verify manualy every single corner you'll find everything, or the game will do the more common exploration, with the obvious not so obvious"you may want to hit this wall or walk left here", or with npcs or anything in game telling you where to go?

The things you need to progress would be figure-it-out hidden, with NPCs or context clues. Extra actually secret things? Probably for-real hidden, because at that point you're being a completionist so searching is why you're there.

 

[North888]

Glad this game is shaping up to be something completely different.

So besides the weapons, can you say if there will be any other upgrades Ajna gets as the game progresses? Or...actually I'm guessing that the incarnations that you get along the way will be placed specifically with when you'll need to use certain weapons and when you'll need to try it out or be introduced to it...still...Ajna already seems to have a ton of powers for platforming, but I'm still wondering what kinds of other abilities she'll get, if you can say that is.

 

[MooseHogBro]

No bikini pictures, but maybe?

Spoiler

awwww

 

[Sotherius]

Yeah, i know, part of the fun in SM is actually understanding the secrets and how to get them, i love that really, thanks for the answer Mike ^^

 

[skull person]

Only optional secret-secrets are expressly hidden in the bomb-everywhere way.

Are you okay with the 'bomb every tile for secrets' method for Indivisible?
Or will there almost always be some way to tell there might be a secret, even if it's just a few pixels?