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Indivisible: Lab Zero's Action-RPG! (General Discussion)

Mike_Z said:
Pokemon Puzzle League is worse. :^| I recommend either the SNES version or the GBA "Dr. Mario & Panel De Pon". Those are the only useful ports. :^)
Gotcha', glad I could consult with all of you! ^_^

KaboomKid said:
But yeah, Indivisible! Sooooo...what would Ajna's favorite puzzle game be?
Rodney Pop Fever! :P
 
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Cheesedragon said:
Wtf happened to this thread? I guess this is what happens while we wait for our lewd ninja guy....

I noticed you REALLY like to complain when a thread isn't going how you want it.
 
9K 19K away from the animated opening!
vdRL2pK.jpg

Also, does anyone know if all the donation doodles from the final stream are collected somewhere? I'd like to see how some turned out.

EDIT: Apparently my brain doesn't work in the morning
 
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Goodbye18000 said:
Sending it to my reporter friends at GoNintendo and such.
Tell 'em it's a Stretch Goal at $6M, along with a Gourmet Race mode.
 
Goodbye18000 said:
Don't joke, they'll report it. Just like they reported the "It might come to the NX someday?" as "Yeah it's happening, confirmed"
eeeeeeeeeeh... I wouldn't do that. You know... I mean yeah people would look at it and believe it but Lab Zero isn't about deceiving people and we shouldn't (either on accident or on purpose) plan misinformation. We are not like the other people who do that, we get to talk to Mike here and get the facts straight and we should help spread the facts as is. For right the Indivisible being on the NX or what ever is an unlikely thing unless it comes out with in the next two years and LabZero gets a dev kit for that system and also if it's pretty easy to port the game over to that system.

Alot of things gotta line perfectly for something like to happen, not saying it's not possible just pretty unlikely. That is unless we have some more SkullGirls magic hidden in our bottles. (:-)
 
Ninja, they were joking. No one here is planning misinformation.

Goodbye18000 said:
Don't joke, they'll report it. Just like they reported the "It might come to the NX someday?" as "Yeah it's happening, confirmed"
What site reported that?
 
Goodbye18000 said:
Don't joke, they'll report it. Just like they reported the "It might come to the NX someday?" as "Yeah it's happening, confirmed"

Yeah, wake me when they get to Mario Party mode.
 
Mike_Z said:
Tetris Attack, no contest. Pretty much all other vs puzzle games have the exact same flaw that Tetris Attack doesn't have, which makes them very frustrating for me. :^)
Late but I'm curious, what flaw do you mean?
 
I'm also curious what specifically Mike likes best about the SNES version. And GBA, apparently, since I never played that one.
 
This is late as hell, but I felt like listening to this song in repeat after the campaign:
Appropriately named After The Wars, by Susumu Hirasawa. That ending really hits me and makes you feel accomplished after a long and tiresome event.
 
mcpeanuts said:
Late but I'm curious, what flaw do you mean?
Got a friend who also thinks that Tetris Attack/Puzzle League is the only puzzle game worth playing, so I'll hazard a guess.

His argument was that in Tetris Attack, you pretty much only lose due to either lack of skill or not playing close enough attention. Whereas in most other competitive puzzle games (Tetris, Puyo Puyo, Puzzle Fighter, etc.), garbage blocks just straight up screw you over.

Don't know if that's the flaw Mike Z was referring to, but it's the one that comes to mind.
 
Professor Icepick said:
His argument was that in Tetris Attack, you pretty much only lose due to either lack of skill or not playing close enough attention. Whereas in most other competitive puzzle games (Tetris, Puyo Puyo, Puzzle Fighter, etc.), garbage blocks just straight up screw you over.
If your opponent is better at dropping garbage than you are, isn't that lack of skill though? You're not getting "screwed over", you got outplayed.
 
Thought I'd break into this puzzle game talk to report there only needs to be 16,691 more buckazoids to hit the animated intro.

Now back to your regularly scheduled off topicness.

(That's a joke~)
 
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missingno said:
I'm also curious what specifically Mike likes best about the SNES version. And GBA, apparently, since I never played that one.
GBA == SNES, it's the same game minus showing the other screen in Vs CPU. Pokemon Puzzle League has framerate issues and they "fixed" several of the high level techniques that made the SNES version interesting. You also have longer to push blocks in during chains, and shorter to push blocks around underneath garbage blocks that are popping. (And you have to listen to the terrible music and repetitive Pokemon noises.) It's straight up a bad port. Gameboy Color is also a decent port, strangely enough.

mcpeanuts said:
Late but I'm curious, what flaw do you mean?
Professor Icepick said:
Got a friend who also thinks that Tetris Attack/Puzzle League is the only puzzle game worth playing, so I'll hazard a guess.
His argument was that in Tetris Attack, you pretty much only lose due to either lack of skill or not playing close enough attention. Whereas in most other competitive puzzle games (Tetris, Puyo Puyo, Puzzle Fighter, etc.), garbage blocks just straight up screw you over.
Exactly this.
missingno said:
If your opponent is better at dropping garbage than you are, isn't that lack of skill though? You're not getting "screwed over", you got outplayed.
No, that's not true. Yes you got outplayed in some manner because they won, but it's HOW that "outplayed" happens that's important.
The difference being, in most versus puzzle games it is possible to drop enough garbage at once that the opponent simply loses because you covered their piece-spawn position/passed the line/whatever. There's nothing they can do once it happens. In Tetris Attack you can drop a huge amount of garbage past the top of the screen but it is NOT AN AUTO-WIN when you do. That's a really major thing.
Let's make a fighting game analogy since this is Skullheart:
Tetris Attack is like a fighting game, you losing depends on your own actions. As long as you can dodge/block/parry/whatever, you can stay alive! And maybe win. EVERY OTHER versus-puzzle-game I have ever played is like a fighting game, except that when your opponent fills their meter and does a lv3 it instantly kills you from anywhere no matter what. In that case, you losing does not depend on YOUR PLAY, it depends on THEIR PLAY. It's a race to Lv3. Your actions are irrelevant to your own survival except as a means to kill them first.
Yes, you can do things to kill them before they do the same. That is still not equivalent, because once ONE of you releases enough junk to fill the screen, the game is over with the loser having no recourse. In Tetris Attack, you can do as many drops of giant garbage blocks as you want, the opponent will not lose until THEY MESS UP. It's your failure on defense that kills you, not their success on offense.
Tetris Attack is the only puzzle game I've ever played where it felt like direct COMPETITION with the other player. Other puzzle games just feel like races to the kill condition - the other player mostly acts as a timer for your demise, rather than an opponent. Nothing else is even in the same universe.

Hopefully that was more clear.
 
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Kawalorn said:
I noticed you REALLY like to complain when a thread isn't going how you want it.

Wait, so there is a big typo in the thread title and this is actually the Competitive Puzzle Game Thread? Oops I'll post somewhere else then ;3
 
no this is the super valkyrie metroid profile xtreme beach volleycooking dog rider thread
where have you been the past eight years
 
Mike Z I have a very important question about on-topic matters on Indivisible will it be possible to walk really slowly by holding the analogue stick halfway pls respond this is very important.

This post started as a joke but now I'm actually curious :0
 
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Mike_Z said:
GBA == SNES, it's the same game minus showing the other screen in Vs CPU. Pokemon Puzzle League has framerate issues and they "fixed" several of the high level techniques that made the SNES version interesting. You also have longer to push blocks in during chains, and shorter to push blocks around underneath garbage blocks that are popping. (And you have to listen to the terrible music and repetitive Pokemon noises.) It's straight up a bad port. Gameboy Color is also a decent port, strangely enough.
I knew N64 had issues, but I'm more curious how Gamecube and DS compare. Any thoughts on those, or have you not played them? I love love love the Gamecube version, it has the best AI, N64's 3D mode but this time with a working framerate, a nice 4-player mode if you don't mind squinting at a tiny playfield, great music, GBA download play, and it comes bundled with two other okayish games. Sucks that it never got localized (though they probably would've killed the fairies again if it did), and I haven't heard anything from the folks who were supposedly almost done the translation patch quite a while ago.

I was never terribly good at the game though, so IDK anything about high level techniques - though if you can point 'em out for me I could try and see how it compares?

Funny you should mention GBC, I kinda have a soft spot for it 'cause I liked trying to unlock all the Pokemon so I'd have extra lives to get through the hardest difficulty, not to mention that being portable is good. Looking back though, it's hard for me to not say it's objectively inferior since they had to make some concessions for the hardware - like not having an actual AI kinda sucks!

Mike_Z said:
No, that's not true. Yes you got outplayed in some manner because they won, but it's HOW that "outplayed" happens that's important.
The difference being, in most versus puzzle games it is possible to drop enough garbage at once that the opponent simply loses because you covered their piece-spawn position/passed the line/whatever. There's nothing they can do once it happens. In Tetris Attack you can drop a huge amount of garbage past the top of the screen but it is NOT AN AUTO-WIN when you do. That's a really major thing.
Let's make a fighting game analogy since this is Skullheart:
Tetris Attack is like a fighting game, you losing depends on your own actions. As long as you can dodge/block/parry/whatever, you can stay alive! And maybe win. EVERY OTHER versus-puzzle-game I have ever played is like a fighting game, except that when your opponent fills their meter and does a lv3 it instantly kills you from anywhere no matter what. In that case, you losing does not depend on YOUR PLAY, it depends on THEIR PLAY. It's a race to Lv3. Your actions are irrelevant to your own survival except as a means to kill them first.
Yes, you can do things to kill them before they do the same. That is still not equivalent, because once ONE of you releases enough junk to fill the screen, the game is over with the loser having no recourse. In Tetris Attack, you can do as many drops of giant garbage blocks as you want, the opponent will not lose until THEY MESS UP. It's your failure on defense that kills you, not their success on offense.
Tetris Attack is the only puzzle game I've ever played where it felt like direct COMPETITION with the other player. Other puzzle games just feel like races to the kill condition - the other player mostly acts as a timer for your demise, rather than an opponent. Nothing else is even in the same universe.

Hopefully that was more clear.
I totally get what you're saying, that is a big difference and I do like that aspect of Panel de Pon (though at the same time I start to get annoyed when matches drag on too long, I think it needs something to reduce the time you have to save yourself after a certain point). I just don't like saying other games working differently isn't skill too!

Oh, and if you say you haven't seen any other puzzle games that do this, I can name one you must've missed (my all time favorite in fact, PdP is #2 after this): Go play Meteos! It's very similar to PdP with sliding blocks to match 3, but instead of being cleared they turn into rockets to lift blocks above them off your screen to be sent at your opponents, with combos letting you generate more thrust to get a high stack off the ground. What really sets it apart though is that you have 32 different planets to pick from, each with their own physics, play field size, spawn ratios, etc. It's probably not very balanced at a high level, but if you want a fair fight you can always just mirror match. Just having the option of asymmetry is a cool thing I wish more of these games would try, and IMO this implementation is a lot more interesting than Puzzle Fighter's.

Uh, let me think of something on-topic to add to the discussion, uh... any plans for minigames in Indivisible? Like perhaps a puzz-
 
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So, I had a though. Not related to puzzles or anything:

On the one hand, I expect delays. Everything has delays. Massive projects with lots of different systems are particularly prone to them.

On the other, delays mean longer development. Longer development means more development streams. I like development streams. Big part of why I contributed.

I'm not sure where to go with this. Whatever hurts us makes us stronger?
 
While I would love for Lab Zero to take their time to make this as polished as possible, I think it would be in the best interest of the "Kickstarter" people that believe that "Anything that's funded will never be made" or "be a huge let down due to delays" that this game would be put out sometime around where they've guessed. Yeah, they've never nailed down a day, but they did give a pretty good spitball of a guess and those who are watching will most likely hold em to that... If Lz can push this out, it'd not only give em more cred cause "We did it like we said", but also maybe give a new hope for the whole "Kickstart" thing.

News is pretty rampant of Big named KS that have struggled to produce, like Mighty Number 9... And might want to avoid getting lumped into that
 
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I think the open beta would help there, as long as they've got something to show for it. Now, if delays get so bad that the beta itself starts getting pushed back, then we might want to worry.
 
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Mike_Z said:
Pokemon Puzzle League is worse. :^| I recommend either the SNES version or the GBA "Dr. Mario & Panel De Pon". Those are the only useful ports. :^)

It was the only one I'd ever played, so I will certainly check out the others! ^.^
 
You know, I think players nowadays want games now. Like, literally now, they don't want to wait too long for a promising game, they just want it in one or two years, even if said game isn't finished yet. Yes, they can say that game sucked later, but that's because developers have stricter schedules than before. Remember the first Zelda on the N64? It took around 4 years to complete that game, and it was worth it. Now, with patches, developers can have an easier time delivering new games, but gamers think they're lazy or that they just want money when developers just are trying to sell their games as a finished, playable product, with some bugs and glitches here and there that can be fixed through patches... well, at least a lot of developers do that. I don't know if I'm just ranting or actually explaining my point, so what I'm just trying to say, is that gamers have forgot the meaning of patience, and complain if they don't get their games as soon as possible, even if that means that the game isn't even finished yet.

Now, to puzzles. Seriously, are we going to have some nice mini-games in Indivisible?
 
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Kit Ballard said:
While I would love for Lab Zero to take their time to make this as polished as possible.

Why wouldn't you? The budget covers the entire vision of Indivisible, as in 100% complete. I can't endure another almost-perfect 75% done game like Dark Souls or New Vegas. I want it perfect and complete even if it takes 3+ years. I'm so, so sick of rushjobs.
 
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Also, @Mike_Z, I'm not sure if you are allowed to talk about it, but I guess no hurt in asking: does your contract with 505 specifies certain dates when the game should be done? I mean if it comes to the end of production will you be able to take a little bit more time to polish something if situation requires so or do you have to abide certain dates no matter what?
 
Cheesedragon said:
Why wouldn't you? The budget covers the entire vision of Indivisible, as in 100% complete. I can't endure another almost-perfect 75% done game like Dark Souls or New Vegas. I want it perfect and complete even if it takes 3+ years. I'm so, so sick of rushjobs.
Oh, I wholly agree. Specially on the "New Vegas" glitch fest. I can wait. But not everyone will, and Lz already stated they are hoping for a 2 year project. That will put em on the spot with a huge chunk of the media if they don't produce around the time they are hoping to hit. Indiv's been heavily covered... and all eyes are looking at the lil-indie-game-that-can. I just don't want em to get flack for taking a bit longer as people and media will jump all over it using the same old excuse and compairing it to other annoyances such as MN9..
 
We should start another crowd funding campaign to invent a time machine then we can go into the future and Indivisible will already be out!

Best part is we don't even have to wait! Just have one person agree that once the time machine is ready they'll go back in time and pick us up!

Perfect plan.
 
LionOhDay said:
We should start another crowd funding campaign to invent a time machine then we can go into the future and Indivisible will already be out!

Best part is we don't even have to wait! Just have one person agree that once the time machine is ready they'll go back in time and pick us up!

Perfect plan.
I can actually do that pretty easy if y'all can raise about 3.3 million for me. Expected delivery: January 2018.
 
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I can't wait to see more moves animated, especially guest characters. Red has to have crash but will she have packet? Everyone expects hair whip from shantae but will she also have spikeball?
 
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missingno said:
Go play Meteos! It's very similar to PdP with sliding blocks to match 3
I own Meteos. I hated it. IMO it got a very basic thing wrong. In TA, blocks arrive vertically, and blocks can be switched horizontally, so if the game gives you something you can move it away from where it was. In Meteos, blocks arrive vertically and can only be switched vertically. Meaning, if you are missing say a red block somewhere, you have to wait until the game decides to give you one. Your actual agency as a player is severely limited. I super couldn't stand the game because of that. Otherwise it was nifty, but it fell down right out of the gate and never got back up.

[edit] "own Meteos", not "owned". I still own it, I just haven't played it since 2005. :^P

Not-So-Saint said:
Also, @Mike_Z, I'm not sure if you are allowed to talk about it, but I guess no hurt in asking: does your contract with 505 specifies certain dates when the game should be done? I mean if it comes to the end of production will you be able to take a little bit more time to polish something if situation requires so or do you have to abide certain dates no matter what?
Specified dates, or at least a range. If it comes to that situation I don't know what their take on push-it-out-now vs when-it's-done will be, but mine will be when-it's-done. I'll ask, though.
I think the public beta will help assuage people's anger if it were to be delayed.
 
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Mike_Z said:
I own Meteos. I hated it. IMO it got a very basic thing wrong. In TA, blocks arrive vertically, and blocks can be switched horizontally, so if the game gives you something you can move it away from where it was. In Meteos, blocks arrive vertically and can only be switched vertically. Meaning, if you are missing say a red block somewhere, you have to wait until the game decides to give you one. Your actual agency as a player is severely limited. I super couldn't stand the game because of that. Otherwise it was nifty, but it fell down right out of the gate and never got back up.

[edit] "own Meteos", not "owned". I still own it, I just haven't played it since 2005. :^P
Huh, that's an interesting point I never really thought about. When you put it that way, it does sound like a serious design flaw, but given that I never really saw it as an issue in all the time I spent playing it...

I suppose there's the fact that the way blocks are cleared means you don't have to match every block. Even if you can't do something with this red block, there's sure to be some other blocks you can match instead and then just use those to trash that red block. It's rare you'll ever be in a position where there's not some move you can make, and then it's a matter of arranging which blocks you match and which blocks you trash.

FWIW, Meteos: Disney Magic let you move blocks in any direction. Never played that one, but I also heard that was the part people hated most (well, second most after the criminal act of killing an amazing art style and atmosphere) about that version because it made things way too easy, so...
 
missingno said:
Huh, that's an interesting point I never really thought about. When you put it that way, it does sound like a serious design flaw, but given that I never really saw it as an issue in all the time I spent playing it...
It bothered me immediately, haha.

missingno said:
FWIW, Meteos: Disney Magic let you move blocks in any direction.
That sounds awful, because yeah way too easy if the game was not designed for "put anything anywhere". If they arrive vertically movement should be just horizontally, and having them fall with gravity.

missingno said:
It's rare you'll ever be in a position where there's not some move you can make, and then it's a matter of arranging which blocks you match and which blocks you trash.
Yes, but "you can prevent a helpless situation by carefully playing" is different from "you cannot be in a helpless situation ever". You can end up in a situation where your only choice is to wait for the game to give you what you want.
 
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