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Indivisible: Lab Zero's Action-RPG! (General Discussion)

@The Dave
That could help with platforming. You hold or toggle a button and game highlights interactable areas while maybe adding icons of items/skills you need to get there. That could help both no-challenge and low-challenge players to pass something they can't figure out without slowing them too much. That could be easymode-only feature or the game can show it to player on normal if it somehow detects that player had stuck.
 
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This newfangled technology that allows you to tag people confuses me.
 
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So, something has worried me for a while, and I figure I should ask for some clarification or opinion or... something...

What kind of tone do people expect/hope for/think is planned for Indivisible? On a scale from Spec Ops: the Line to Borderlands, how heavy do you expect it to be? I've noticed Indiv is a little lacking in the pun department, and I do like the puns... on the other hand, I get the impression people at Lab Zero want Indivisible to be a serious, well-respected game.

To be clear, "dark" is not "bad"- I just finished and enjoyed Alice: Madness Returns and it was not light at all. (Btw: Invisible moving platforms are the worst.) "Bleak" titles like Shadow of the Colossus, Gears of War, and Dark Souls are often critically acclaimed. On the other hand, there's something to be said for light: for Rayman, Saints Row, Blood Dragon and Kirby. I personally tend to prefer these "lighter" titles, even as their characters tackle horrifying monsters from the depths of space. Especially when the lighthearted, confident hero goes head to head against cosmic horror.

I think Kirby is cool.
 
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Mike_Z said:
See: Lanshi
I was actually expecting Lanshi to be serious. Yes, he's a big fluffy dog right now, but I kind of expected, with the "he's the only ex-human degraded Incarnation" aspect, that his previous human life was the lowest of grimdark scum and we'd have to deal with next-life redemption of that bad, bad, awful life.
 
I mean there is a major difference between "serious" and "bleak".
Like, Jak 3 has a serious story, Okami has a serious story, even games with light hearted heroes like Devil May Cry or Bayonetta have serious stories because you are meant to take the story and threats seriously.
They're not dark or depressing by any means, they just have stakes in the narrative as opposed to being a fun-filled romp for fun-filled romp's sake.
 
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TheMightyBox said:
Devil May Cry or Bayonetta have serious stories because you are meant to take the story and threats seriously.
See, I always had trouble taking the plots of Bayonetta or Devil May Cry seriously, partly because Bayo and Dante seemed to have so much fun. As for Jak, I've only played the first and was too busy looking for comparisons to Crash Bandicoot 'cause of the developer and that one part where Jak was chased by a boulder. If anything, I thought that Jak was trying too hard to be mature.

Still, I think I can see what you're saying. Prince of Persia was only particularly bleak in Warrior Within; Sands of Time and Two Thrones were serious, but not too serious. Psychonauts and Bastion had serious plots, but weren't terribly bleak or dreary despite brain-theft and literal apocalypse. By contrast, I'd say Dragon Age: Origins was so consistently bleak it was over the top and couldn't be taken seriously. It broke the Warhammer: 40K level of bleakness where you just have to laugh and slaughter some Orks. I consider Captain Titus of 40K: Space Marine a lighter character than Kratos from God of War, even though 40K is a darker setting than God of War's Ancient Greece.

It's a tough line to straddle, but I think Lab Zero can do it. Ajna's a serious character, but she still chases Roti.
 
I've seen Chrono Trigger namedropped by Peter a few times, so the midway point in that story is kinda what I've been imagining in terms of tone for a while. I guess somewhere between CT / Wild Arms / Suikoden? Upbeat when it needs to be, but never afraid to drop the hammer down.

I just remember from Alex's lore stream that there are a lot of heavy themes already in the story, so it's definitely not going to be a squeaky clean "Good vs. Evil" ride for the cast.
 
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I'm sure they'll have some sort of comedic punchlines in there... But yeah, I've been expecting this to be more towards "Story" is thick with elements that hit home often. Making you attached to the chars more.

I love the way Bayo's story was told. Serious with lots of comedic value.. and sexual innuendo.. why it's such a blast to play it (aside from the wicked fun battle mechanics)
 
Mike_Z said:
Huh. I hated nearly everything about Bayonetta. Go figure.
Care to elaborate? It seemed a fairly standard "over the top spectacle-focused beat 'em up" during my playthrough. Forgettable, maybe, but not terribly hate-worthy. Granted, "spectacle-focused" and "normal" shouldn't mix, but that's become a fairly tough pitfall to avoid in any tech-heavy medium as it becomes a few years old. Even the best graphics become "good for its time" after enough years have passed. Lord of the Rings looked amazing in theaters, and it still looks good, but how long before Andy Serkis becomes the next Ray Harryhausen?

Granted, I think Asura's Wrath managed to better retain sheer spectacle over time than Bayonetta, but that's probably just a matter of scale- Bayo was too busy flirting with the camera to punch/shoot her way into a planet, but I remember she at least rode a missile Dr. Strangelove-style pretty well. Asura beat up planets, Kratos shed excessive blood, and Bayonetta showed a lot of leg- from a casual perspective, all fairly decent, normal entries in their particular genre. They all used cutscenes, quick-time-events, and "established" 3D beat 'em up mechanics to boost player feeling of empowerment. If anything, Asura's Wrath didn't have as much player choice due to the lack of any leveling mechanics. (For all I know you might also hate Asura... which would also be interesting!)

Even though Indivisible and Bayonetta are completely different genres, I have to ask what Bayo did so wrong? Thanks!
 
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Of all the criticism you can levy at Bayonetta, I really don't think forgettable is one of them.

Also, the focus of Bayonetta isn't huge setpiece cutscenes of ridiculous scale like Asura's Wrath but the actual combat. They are barely related at all and comparing the cutscenes in Bayonetta to a game whose entire focus was those cutscenes seems like a fairly poor comparison (it's like comparing SFIV to UMvC3 and saying that SFIV's combos aren't as great a spectacle).

I'd say the three games you picked as examples of beat 'em ups are at opposite ends of the spectra for their genre. I would be interested to hear why Mike hated Bayonetta though.
 
Kit Ballard said:
I love the way Bayo's story was told.
The only thing I loved about B&B2 story is that each of those two games is a sequel for the other one.
I personally think that b1's story was presented really poorly. Second one was better in that department.
Then again I didn't like DMC4 story and its presentation compared to DMC3.
 
I mean I think general consenses is that DMC4's story did kind of suck and DMC3 has one of the best stories of any stylish action game ever so I don't think that's an uncommon opinion
 
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I don't remember much of the plot for any DMC or Bayo game beyond "shit happens"

DMC: you're hired to kill demons. you kill demons
DMC2: there are demons. you kill demons. Also, this game had the best art design for dante
DMC3: There are demons. And Vergil. You kill demons and fight Vergil
DMC4: There are demons. And notdante. You kill demons as both Dante and Notdante.

Bayo: There are angels. They're assholes. You kill angels. And god, i think.
Bayo 2: The demons are assholes too.

The funny thing is, I liked these games. I just don't remember anything plotwise out of them. I remember fun fights and set pieces.
 
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The Dave said:
... what Bayo did so wrong?
alexpi said:
The funny thing is, I liked these games. I just don't remember anything plotwise out of them. I remember fun fights and set pieces.
That's what it is for me. Of all the major beatdazzle-em-ups I've played in the last 15 years, I barely remember anything about their stories, or really, even any of their set pieces. For God's sake, I beat Bayonetta on the hardest difficulty, meaning I liked the gameplay enough to play through 3 times, and I still don't remember that game's story. I vaguely remember sex torture finishers, and how I was very glad nobody was watching me play the game.

Of the genre, only God of War 3 sticks out in my mind. Maybe it's just the fact that it speaks to me on a deep, instinctual level (YOU MAN, OTHER MANS WRONG YOU, MUST KILL MANS RARGHH), but also, things like L3 + R3 were just so awesome they're impossible for me to forget. I vividly remember staring at that prompt for a second before realizing what that motion meant, and then as I did it, I bellowed out laughter, and was like HAHA FUCK YOU POSEIDON I GUESS YOU WON'T BE LORD OF THE SEE ANYMORE!

And I really don't even think I liked the gameplay of GoW. "I'm coming for you!" is just a universally understood motivation, imo. Revenge is a powerful instinct, so I never had to wonder what I was doing at any given time, or why. I knew.
 
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The problem with Bayo1's plot is she's just wandering from setpiece to setpiece. At least in Bayo2 she's got someplace she's going.
 
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The Dave said:
Care to elaborate? It seemed a fairly standard "over the top spectacle-focused beat 'em up" during my playthrough.
You'll laugh:
I didn't find the combat fun. It just felt mashy, she felt too powerful? and I got bored under halfway through the game. (I mean, I also didn't find her likable her as a character design, nor did I like the plot, and I'm not really a fan of Dogma-style blood-and-feathers...but mostly it was the actual playing of the game that just didn't keep me interested.)

Maybe I just don't "get" 3D action games. I loved the heck out of Hulk: Ultimate Destruction, so to me that's the standard because it's actually DEEP (and fun), since a lot of what you do is reacting to enemies. There are also lots of varied missions as opposed to just "punch this other thing". I dunno, people will argue that same thing for Bayonetta or Dark Souls...but nothing else popular that I've played has really held my interest for very long. I'd rather play The Peacekeepers or Violent Storm or Hulk: UD or Punisher or something.
 
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Dude... someone needs to make a new "destroy" game.. Story? Bah.. just rip apart the city! People, cars, buildings.. everything! BRING ON THE CARNAGE!

... erm.
 
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Kit Ballard said:
someone needs to make a new "destroy" game
Lab Zero's answer to Cabal and Rampage? I'd be down.

Actually, lately I've been wondering why there hasn't been a video game equivalent to a Charles Bronson movie. Even Time Crisis never gets that dumb.
 
Kit Ballard said:
Dude... someone needs to make a new "destroy" game.. Story? Bah.. just rip apart the city! People, cars, buildings.. everything! BRING ON THE CARNAGE!

... erm.

We can dream...


Also, not liking Bayonetta? And i thought my standards were too high, jeez, I'm just stunned. But again, detailed explaination, so...
 
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Not-So-Saint said:
Any new stuff on the Mike's last stream?
Arrows stick in stuff. Ajna moves a smidge towards her target when she fires her bow. Also some fun talk about getting into coding and game development. Link!
 
You know, I think the whole "is this game serious or full of memes?" thing is subjective, because there are people who consider the latter fun, while others will immediately think a game is bad just because you can find a cat meme here and there. I find the Borderlands games to be fun, even if they included way too many memes in the Pre-Sequel. Sometimes, some games try to be way too serious and this can bore some players, but it can be "ignored" as long as the gameplay keeps the player interested (for example, I don't really like games like CoD or the Tom Clancy's games, but some people just ignore the story because they enjoy the gameplay). Of course, this is just my opinion, and I'm an individual who enjoyed Asteroids 64.
 
Mike_Z said:
You'll laugh:
I didn't find the combat fun. It just felt mashy, she felt too powerful? and I got bored under halfway through the game. (I mean, I also didn't find her likable her as a character design, nor did I like the plot, and I'm not really a fan of Dogma-style blood-and-feathers...but mostly it was the actual playing of the game that just didn't keep me interested.)

Maybe I just don't "get" 3D action games. I loved the heck out of Hulk: Ultimate Destruction, so to me that's the standard because it's actually DEEP (and fun), since a lot of what you do is reacting to enemies. There are also lots of varied missions as opposed to just "punch this other thing". I dunno, people will argue that same thing for Bayonetta or Dark Souls...but nothing else popular that I've played has really held my interest for very long. I'd rather play The Peacekeepers or Violent Storm or Hulk: UD or Punisher or something.
I'm curious if you feel the same way about the Devil May Cry series, since that tends to be the standard these kinds of beat em up games try to live up to.
 
Kit Ballard said:
I love Rainbow Six T~T
I suppose both the story AND the gameplay, right? In the end, it's all a matter of personal taste; some people abhor the RPG genre because they think it's boring, but as long as they let other people enjoy these kind of games, then it's okay. The real problem begins when players are not mature enough to realize that each person likes some things and dislike others. For example, I wouldn't pay a single buck for a horror game, because I don't find the fun in being scared to the point of throwing the controller at the screen, yet some people LOVE horror games, and to be honest, I prefer to watch them play said games.
 
E!Damnation said:
I suppose both the story AND the gameplay, right?
nah. It plays better than CoD, in my opinion. Haven't played since Vegas 2 though... Wonder if they brought back the "Gimp" mechanic. Was pretty cool mechanic... Don't get shot or you'll have issues! But that's enough offtopic from me ^_^''
 
I went back and watched some of the stream archives last night. I missed a lot, so I didn't know the new weapons were already so far along! Spear's looking wicked all around with its great range and knockback. Even though Mike was toning it down a lot, it still looks like near a ledge, it'd be a great tool to help quickly eject enemies from a battle.

The new transitions are definitely great too. That combo on initiative really changes the game a lot, because now even some enemies that are able to take an initial whack from a strong weapon could still be stomped with a follow up combo. Maybe people that initially wanted to picture this game as more of a beat-em-up could still find their middleground here if they used the right team and strategy. Very cool.

Oh, and fyi, for anyone that was still wondering about some of Mike's music from last night's stream:

hmm...a song like this could probably fit an RPG opening.
 
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KaboomKid said:
Oh, and fyi, for anyone that was still wondering about some of Mike's music from last night's stream:
Nice! Even I didn't know where that was from, I just used the FAB Potemkin video. :^P
 
Mike_Z said:
Even I didn't know where that was from, I just used the FAB Potemkin video. :^P
Oh cool! I've honestly never watched/played anything from that Gundam, just heard the soundtrack.

Your stream introduced me to the Intelligent Qube OST though. All these years, I never knew that little game had such epic music!
 
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