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Indivisible PROTOTYPE Speedrunning & Secrets Discussion

And here I am still clueless

EDIT: RIGHT AS I SAY THAT

I need to get my eyes checked
 
@Mike_Z Do you consider it spoiled enough to not do the stream?
 
I'm sure I'll do the stream anyway because that's how you generate excitement innit...but it's not spoiled to the wide world yet, no.
 
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I just... I can't. Where is this place? I think I know the trick but nothing is working... I don't even know if I know the right trick. I just want it to be over.
 
This was a great idea for a secret, a lot of fun and I'm glad we found this.

Keeping me on edge that's for sure, testing my poor reactions.
 
Just to be safe, this is all there is, right? I don't have to scan the game with bloodshot eyes anymore, right?
 
Rakurin said:
I just... I can't. Where is this place? I think I know the trick but nothing is working... I don't even know if I know the right trick. I just want it to be over.
If you'd quit choking that chicken, you'll find it.
 
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infected melon said:
Just to be safe, this is all there is, right?
The clear screen says you're completely done, so I would assume yes.
 
infected melon said:
Just to be safe, this is all there is, right? I don't have to scan the game with bloodshot eyes anymore, right?
You can also beat it without fighting the boss, but yes.
 
So was wondering if anyone has any input on this for speed run purposes.

Going to use AB = action bar and IM = Iddhai Meter

Ajna Axeless:
Up atk - Widest hitbox / strongest atk? / longest AB recovery? / longest animation recovery / IM gain??
Neutral atk - Average everything?
Down atk - Shortest AB recovery / weakest atk / shortest animation recovery / IM gain??

Ajna Axe:
Up atk - Strongest atk / longest AB recovery? / IM gain??
Neutral atk - Widest hitbox / weakest atk / shortest animation recovery? / average everything else?
Down atk - can jump cancel directly out of at fight end / shortest AB recovery? / IM gain??

Zebei:
Up atk - Strongest atk on single enemy / longest AB recovery? / IM gain??
Neutral atk - ??
Down atk - Can hit multiple targets / shortest AB recovery? / IM gain??

Tungar:
Up atk - Wide AoE attack / strongest atk? / longest AB recovery / high IM gain??
Neutral atk - Hits multiple enemies in a line / weakest atk / shortest AB recovery? / IM gain??
Down atk - average everything??

Razmi:
Up atk - Widest hitbox / longest AB recovery? / weakest or strongest atk?? / IM gain??
Neutral atk - weakest or strongest atk?? / IM gain??
Down atk - inflicts "slowness" / fastest AB recovery / lowest IM gain?


Is it safe to assume that multihit attacks gain the most meter since it seems that the longer a combo goes on for, the faster the meter builds?
 
Mike_Z said:
You only even get that message if you went and looked for the first one, you just get Clear Time otherwise. And if you went to go look for secrets already, why not tell you you didn't find 'em all?
I think there's a clear difference between climbing out of a pit using methods required/encouraged to get to this point and both ways of getting into that second room (I don't know how spoiler-free things we're still keeping anything, but airing on the non-spoiler side). The second you climb out of the pit, just walking shows you your new ability. As you backtrack enemies just line up to be blown up. I walked all the way back to the beginning just because it was so fun running through things, and the path back to start naturally led to the first secret. Even if I hadn't noticed the obvious wall, just running back to the tree would have probably broken it on accident.

At the point at which you're looking, I think you made it fair game to be told that.
... yeah. I guess you're right. I don't want to look for secrets and not know if I got em all.

Technically, if you didn't bother to figure out a way to bang the appropriate weapon against the appropriate wall, you didn't fulfill your initial goal either, did you?
Ah... also true. Still.

You just want to do the easy stuff and find everything?
No, that's not what I was saying. Of course I don't want everything to be easy or handed to me. But being unable to find the "exploit" while the game was telling me I was missing something in this very confined space was frustrating. I'm not usually the type of person to look for how to break a game, so I never would have found this without hints and the "mostly" message would have always just bothered me and that's it. It sorta felt like playing a game and trying to figure out a clearly present puzzle before realizing you don't even have the item to solve it yet, which you only realize after getting the item. It's probably just my preference but I like getting/learning I can do something and then realizing there was a puzzle there all along for me to solve with it, not the other way around.
 
You are going to need a glitched and glitchless category now. I found a way to skip most of the game. This is the video for the main glitch. If you want a cleaner version of the glitch or the currentish strats check the other videos i uploaded today.
 
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Kit Ballard said:
Wonder what the "normal" way would of been to get it..
What do you mean? Did you find a non-normal way?
 
licksquadspoon said:
You are going to need a glitched and glitchless category now.
Now that's what I call sequence breaking.
 
Disclaimer: I AXE CLIMBED THAT SPECIFIC DOORWAY A BUNCH OF TIMES AND NEVER HAD THAT HAPPEN I'M SO MAD (prior to knowing this existed)
 
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HEY GUYS, HUGE SHOUT OUT TO @licksquadspoon FOR HELPING ME ACHIEVE THIS SPEEDRUN, HE DESERVES ALL THE CREDIT FOR ALL THE CRAZY SHIT THAT HAPPENS
*warning a lot of bad words and it gets pretty loud at the end*

Damn, I've waited a long time for something like Indivisible from the minds of Lab Zero so thank you guys so much for getting me addicted to the game long enough to completely dedicate 6+ straight hours into getting a perfect broken run for it.
 
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Wow, OoB stuff already? I probably won't touch that side of speedrunning.

Anywho, impending wall of observations & questionable wordsmithing ahoy.

Saying this now... some of this info isn't strictly regarding speedrun tech/tactics, or anywhere close to exact except regarding damage numbers. My method of attempting to figure out meter and ATB stuff is "double-slow the gold noodleghost and remember to run before killing it so i can refresh it by going to the other side of the room". I also can't really attest to how the combo system gauges how much extra meter you get.

Some important notes of how the ATB seems to work from what I've gathered...
  • Each attack gives it's own multiplicative modifier to how slowly your ATB will build up, stacking (multiplicatively of course) with whatever other attacks you use. It costs more ATB time to use 3 attacks with large modifiers in the same attack than it does to use each pip individually after it recovers (though real-time is obviously a different story).
  • The modifier lasts until a pip is filled, at which point it reverts to the character's baseline ATB speed.
  • If you use a pip before all 3 pips are filled, you lose 50% of whatever ATB power was leftover in the pip before it. So using an attack at at 1.8 pip power will leave you with 0.4, not 0.8. However, the above rule still applies, which means you can abuse the system for a very slight benefit; using a super right *before* a pip fills gives you half a pip with the super's modifier and then another pip (or two) at your normal speed, which generally takes as long as an entire pip at the slow speed, for when you can't afford to let Razmi get an entire pip before healing.
Regarding supers with the system:
  • As soon as you use a super attack, your ATB mod is set to a (large) static value regardless of what it was before. It takes exactly as long for a single pip to fill up after Tungar uses his super alone as it does for him to use 2 up attacks and *then* his super.
  • However, this ATB modifier is further multiplied if you use other non-super attacks AFTER using the super. It is a very bad idea to use Razmi's heal and then 2 up attacks afterwards.
  • If you use multiple supers from the same character in the same attack string, the ATB resetting property only seems to work once, until a pip is refilled. Using a super, an attack, and then another super causes you to still suffer the combined wait of having done a super and an attack afterwards, whereas 3 supers in a row (aka. L2 L1 L1) will not increase the wait outside of the super's baseline.
RemiKz said:
Ajna Axeless:
Up atk - Widest hitbox / strongest atk? / longest AB recovery? / longest animation recovery / IM gain??
Neutral atk - Average everything?
Down atk - Shortest AB recovery / weakest atk / shortest animation recovery / IM gain??
  • Up is her *weakest* unarmed attack from a raw damage standpoint, doing only 300 damage instead of 350 on top of the long ATB multiplier. However, this one is also her best shoving tool, being a mini-launcher with high forward movement. And, y'know, AoE. Moves forward pretty far too, which seems to be a thing for Ajna's up attacks.
  • Mid is indeed sort of average. it combines most of the horizontal range of Up with the speed (though not ATB mod) of Down.
  • Down adds the least ATB modifier to your recovery and gives you more meter, but it's also easy to miss due to the tiny and low hitbox. You might even whiff just trying to chain 2 down attacks together! That's why i tend to go for Down to Mid when trying to one-round Ahps early, since 2 mids will cause more delay if one of Zebei's arrows miss and 2 lows can whiff on the second.
I feel the super is something of a tide-over until you get Razmi. The heal is quite weak, but unlike Razmi's super Ajna will revive any fallen Incarnations regardless of the meter spent. If there's some other niche aspect to it, I'm not seeing it.

RemiKz said:
Ajna Axe:
Up atk - Strongest atk / longest AB recovery? / IM gain??
Neutral atk - Widest hitbox / weakest atk / shortest animation recovery? / average everything else?
Down atk - can jump cancel directly out of at fight end / shortest AB recovery? / IM gain??
  • The up attack gives the most meter of her attacks as well as the most damage, but with the ATB penalty it carries it seems you actually get more damage and meter out of a full set of pips by doing a mix of 2 ups and a down. Doesn't combo cleanly if spammed when the enemy is pinned or immobile, since she ends up needing to walk back to line up another, and if they aren't you may have trouble timing the rest of your party's attacks. Since it moves forward so far, you can get a lot of pushing out of this.
  • I don't have much to say about the mid, since it's rather basic; easy to combo with, and a wide swing to hit multiple rows.
  • Down not only has a tiny ATB mod, it also has a huge amount of hitstun. Rather difficult to combo with since it's also a giant launcher and as such can easily make other attacks whiff, but a great attack nonetheless.
Ajna's axe super seems to be the best in terms of raw damage output, being fantastic ST damage and solid AoE damage for it's wait (2450/3300/4550 total, 1050/1900/2450 is AoE). Ajna also seems to have the least efficient meterbuilding of the 4 characters, which makes her my choice for mauling a boss. 1 Up attack, then an L3 super, then another L1 super later in the same combo is the best damage-to-ATB efficiency i've found so far for a full 3 pips on all 3 characters.

RemiKz said:
Zebei:
Up atk - Strongest atk on single enemy / longest AB recovery? / IM gain??
Neutral atk - ??
Down atk - Can hit multiple targets / shortest AB recovery? / IM gain??
  • Up isn't necessarily your strongest attack, since it's entirely dependant on how many hits you land. Every arrow Zebei fires does the same 235 damage and (seemingly) the same meter, it's just a matter of firing pattern... and the ATB multiplier on this means you really only want to use it if you'll hit at least 5 arrows, preferably all 6. Smaller enemies tend to only get hit by 4, if not 3. Only do a full set of 3 high attacks if yer absolutely sure you'll land all 18 arrows, and have a combo planned to fill in the huge gap between shots.
  • Mid has the shortest (almost non-existant) ATB mod, is the best at comboing staggered firing, and is also his best pusher. It takes exactly as much time for Zebei to recover from an MMM attack as it does for Ajna to recover from an LLL. It's also (very slightly) more ATB efficient than a full up attack at getting meter if spammed.
  • For Down, it seems a safe bet that he'll hit the target enemy with 3 arrows and enemies to both sides with 1 each... unless you catch them moving towards Zebei due to the enemy having been pushed out of position. With the lowish ATB mod, It's just as damage-efficient as high attacks if you land 4 arrows, and noticably superior if you land all 5. It's also more meter efficient even at 4 hits.
Zebei's super feels a bit situational. It's your best damage super until you get the axe, and if you can somehow manage to stuff the enemy with all the arrows it's actually the strongest super in the game (2/3/4 waves of 200x5, then 1 wave of 235x5, totals 3175/4175/5175). Actually pulling that off is harder than it sounds, due to being multiple waves and causing pushback. Even against the guardian boss, where it tends to hit 4 arrows from each wave, i get more damage out of Ajna's super. Still, it's your best super overall for wide AoE damage since Ajna needs lots of meter plus enemies near eachother, and Tungar's super has no width.

RemiKz said:
Tungar:
Up atk - Wide AoE attack / strongest atk? / longest AB recovery / high IM gain??
Neutral atk - Hits multiple enemies in a line / weakest atk / shortest AB recovery? / IM gain??
Down atk - average everything??
  • Up is definitely his strongest attack by a large lead (1300 vs 750 vs 825), but the giant ATB mod makes it a terrible idea to spam against solo targets. It also gives the least meter of all attacks. Still, it's useful to trying to sync ATBs with Razmi and an amazing AoE either way.
  • Mid is the weakest damagewise, but it has a fantastically low ATB modifier and is far and away his best meterbuilder which makes it quite efficient. However, against enemies who *aren't* pinned, it doesn't combo into itself due to Tungar needing to move between swings.
  • Down doesn't do enough extra damage over the mid for it's ATB modifier (and grants less meter), but the second hit has the unique ability of launching enemies *towards* you, potentially even behind the party if chaincast, with the same gigantic hitstun that being a launcher entails. This opens up some interesting punting options as well as reducing how far your team will have to run to catch up with an enemy to land their attacks, if you really need that.
Tungar's super has a larger ATB multiplier than Ajni's or Zebei's supers, and it doesn't do quite as much damage as either (2000/3000/4250)... but it hits basically an entire row of targets with it's full power, and has a hilariously large knockback, especially if you catch something in the air with it. Niche, but still very useful.

RemiKz said:
Razmi:
Up atk - Widest hitbox / longest AB recovery? / weakest or strongest atk?? / IM gain??
Neutral atk - weakest or strongest atk?? / IM gain??
Down atk - inflicts "slowness" / fastest AB recovery / lowest IM gain?
  • Up is technically the weakest attack, if you don't count the down attack's paltry 200 damage as even being damage (up is 1300 vs mid's 1800). It also as a gigantic ATB multiplier on it, which makes spamming it take about as long to recover as some supers. However, it's got an equally gigantic area; It's got a deceptively large horizontal reach, and it seems to have comparatively infinite width; not even Tungar's up attack can target an enemy on the lowest of 3 rows while still hitting the top row. It also gives a whole lot of meter, though the sheer ATB cost dilutes it significantly.
  • Mid is the go-to mauler for Razmi. Highest raw damage of your party's normal attacks, fantastic metergain efficiency even with Razmi's poor ATB speed (and the mid's mild multiplier), and a strong pushing tool as the cherry on top. Do note it doesn't reach quite as far horizontally as it looks like it might.
  • The down attack doesn't give much meter, but it's importance for big fights can't really be understated. The ATB recovery is indeed fast (for Razmi), and it increases how long the enemy has to wait until they can do their next attack, at which point it is removed. What makes it fantastic is that casting it a 2nd time stacks the effect, though not a 3rd. If you wait until immediately after a beefy opponent makes their move, you can potentially get up to 3 full party combos (including the starter that slows) before the enemy gets to retaliate. Not all enemies have the same level of vulnerability to the slow, but this move can singlehandedly prevent you from needing to heal against the guardian boss if you went in healthy already.
One thing i've noticed with Razmi's super is that it's actually more effective at healing you than the natural transfer of meter to health after combat.. A full stock of 3 iddhi levels seems to translate to about 1500 healing for the party, which is as much as Razmi's first-level heal (1500/2250/Rez+3000). If a fight is about to end and you really need more health between fights, use Razmi first.
 
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Fivavoa said:
HEY GUYS, HUGE SHOUT OUT TO @licksquadspoon FOR HELPING ME ACHIEVE THIS SPEEDRUN, HE DESERVES ALL THE CREDIT FOR ALL THE CRAZY SHIT THAT HAPPENS
Oh, you're playing not-the-campaign release. You don't have to dash after a dash jump in the current build.
So y'know, obsolete strats because of saving frames each jump, and all that. :^P

And do note that that hole will probably be fixed.

TheGamaniac said:
Zebei's super feels a bit situational. It's your best damage super until you get the axe, and if you can somehow manage to stuff the enemy with all the arrows it's actually the strongest super in the game (2/3/4 waves of 200x5, then 1 wave of 235x5, totals 3175/4175/5175). Actually pulling that off is harder than it sounds
Tungar D, Zebei super+Tungar N.
 
Mike_Z said:
Oh, you're playing not-the-campaign release. You don't have to dash after a dash jump in the current build.
So y'know, obsolete strats because of saving frames each jump, and all that. :^P

And do note that that hole will probably be fixed.
I can't currently afford to support the Campaign Perk I want yet, so I had to deal with the wonky original release.

Also yea I absolutely don't doubt that, but it's always fun doing OoB stuff so I'm sorta glad it was in the not-so-important public release. I do plan on doing it legitimately as well seeing as how I spend plenty of time figuring out combos and etc prior to the OoB run. ;)
 
TheGamaniac said:
Uh... what? Those aren't related, you can get the updated version of the prototype regardless.
Really? I was under the impression that backers would only get the updated version. Thanks!
 
Fivavoa said:
I can't currently afford to support the Campaign Perk I want yet, so I had to deal with the wonky original release.

Also yea I absolutely don't doubt that, but it's always fun doing OoB stuff so I'm sorta glad it was in the not-so-important public release. I do plan on doing it legitimately as well seeing as how I spend plenty of time figuring out combos and etc prior to the OoB run. ;)
It's free.
 
My tools are:
An axe that lets me scale walls and cut soft things.
The ability to bounce off walls.
A dash that makes me go faster and breaks through some objects.
That's all I see. I cannot fathom how to exploit these.
 
I don't actually know how speed runs usually treat NG+, but starting from scratch, allowing the out of bounds (although Mike seem to already want to remove it) and requiring a NG+ complete ending sounds interesting.
 
@Fivavoa @licksquadspoon
Thanks for finding those, much appreciated! Don't forget the newer versions are all freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee......

There are extra holes, gonna remove those too. Enjoy finding them! Heh. And fix some crashes, and add the buttons-not-swap option, and mollify @Zidiane's annoyance at Mostly Clear by doing the thing I wanted to do in the first place. :^)

Someone once asked what I'd keep or fix for speedrunning, and I said - most stuff I'd keep (even skips) but OOB stuff I'd remove unless it was super short. It makes for stupid boring runs where you are not "playing the game well", you're just "avoiding the game entirely".
So now I get to do that!

[edit]
The categories I'd personally care about are:
"100%" which would be fresh start, All Clear
-and-
Bossless, because that is really interesting
-and-
"low%", which I guess would be the least leveled characters

(and MAYBE NG+ any% because that'd be the brokenest one, skip the most stuff.)
 
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URGH!!! REALLY? All this time, I had only ever bothered checking this spot from one angle???

Wish I could high-five the Indivisible characters right now. That Secret felt my rage.
 
KaboomKid said:
URGH!!! REALLY? All this time, I had only ever bothered checking this spot from one angle???

Wish I could high-five the Indivisible characters right now. That Secret felt my rage.
I know exactly what you mean, there is a visual cue there, but it's like, the way you traverse that room, my eyes were always drawn AWAY from that area. When I noticed it, I was coming from an angle you would never normally come through there unless you were looking, so I felt pretty stupid when I saw it. I knew it would work before I even did it.
 
...I'm starting to think there's counterhit damage bonuses or something if you hit an attacking monster to initiate the fight. Some enemies I open combat with are hurt noticably more than expected, namely early when unarmed. I'm having trouble reproducing it though... can someone try doublechecking this so I can be sure it isn't just me seeing things that aren't there?

Mike_Z said:
"100%" which would be fresh start, All Clear
Would 100% include killing everything too, or just the All Clear condition? It seems like some non-chaff enemies would be entirely unfought across all 3 of those categories if you wanted raw speed, like the 2nd black ogre and maybe the gold noodleghost crew.
 
TheGamaniac said:
Would 100% include killing everything too, or just the All Clear condition? It seems like some non-chaff enemies would be entirely unfought across all 3 of those categories if you wanted raw speed, like the 2nd black ogre and maybe the gold noodleghost crew.
Just whatever you need to get the All Clear. 100% in Super Metroid or Chrono Trigger doesn't include fighting all the mooks, just the bosses - and of those, only the ones you can't skip.

The ogres are called Belu.
 
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The reason I would like the start from scratch NG+ all clear is that it would allow for some out of bounds shenanigans after getting the axe, but you would still want to do some fights for level ups.

And obviously you would need to at minimum fight the 2 bosses when you reach NG+ so there would be plenty of in bounds traversal required too. Unless there are lots more holes in choice places, I guess.
 
Tomo009 said:
I know exactly what you mean...my eyes were always drawn AWAY from that area.
Yeah man. I was literally just screwing around at that point when I found it. I had been trying the "correct" thing in so many OTHER places, but for some reason I only ever thought to check below that spot before. Sheesh!

Man, I want this game to get funded so bad. My attachment to Ajna & crew is starting to reach CT levels. These characters deserve to go on more adventures.
 
I personally checked this place quite early, but gave up, cause I didn't know the trick, and the way it looked didn't make me 100% confident that was it.
 
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