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Invocation: An amateur's idea for a game.

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I've been doing a lot of thinking. I'm unfit to make a game, or even be part of a team to mak on, at least anything of quality. I'm practicing learning to make games, but I've realized I just don't have waht it takes now to make anything. I had planned on having a team to do Invocation, but now, now it's a long term dream for me to make myself, far down the road...As it stands I need to get into the community here more and learn the ins and outs of fighting games first.
 
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Not really, but your previous speech does sound like you're new to the Skullgirls community, and thus, replies can come in like that easily.
In relations to the thread, How's the idea for the game goin' ?
I am new to the community, but play the game quite heftily. Not nealy as heftily as everyone else here I assume, but I'm familiar with all the characters and such.

As far the as the game idea, I've put a halt on it until I understand the core of fighting games. Mike Z's comment and a lot of hte reference material has helped immensly, so I'm really just practicing my spriting skills and learning to program. I'm planning, once I get good enough, to see if I can't make this game solo, possibly with some help from my friend who's a composer.
 
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Snip

Kinda never knew that; designers focus on damage, not the number of hits.

@North888 When I started learning more about fighting games, I first looked up the terminology associated with them. I was slow to learn at first but I eventually got where I am today: Scrub, with knowledge. It takes longer than most think to play fighting games very proficiently(maybe two or three years), but take your time you'll get there.

Here are some pretty nice sources.

This is more for when you may be more familiar to fighting games.
http://www.cheatcc.com/extra/howtomaketheperfectfightinggame.html
This may be or may not be specific to Street Fighter, so this may not be completely useful
http://shoryuken.com/2014/07/07/lea...ng-games-with-our-free-beginners-guide-ebook/
Terminology
http://iplaywinner.com/glossary/
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_fighting_games
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/FightingGame
This is good for learning about certain character archetypes
http://smashboards.com/threads/character-archetypes-in-smash-bros.331574/
This was Skullheart's Resource competition, there's a lot of cool, useful things. Especially Combo words and their meaning.
http://skullgirls.com/forums/index.php?threads/resource-competition-winners-announced.1221/

If you really want to learn the ins and outs of fighting games, maybe instead of making your first game as soon as you attained the skills, maybe you should program your own fighting game. A good example is Street Fighter 4th Strike, a fan-made version of Street Fighter 3rd Strike. When I learn to program proficiently, I will first start by trying to make Darkstalkers play a bit like Skullgirls. Some things in Darkstalkers I don't like, so I want to program that game as an exercise of my level of expertise.
 
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Keep playing Skullgirls.

Might be more relevant

Also make an action adventure/hack and slash, would probably fit just as well if not better with the story unfolding/style you mentioned earlier. The world needs more single player games that are actually good.
 
OP, do you know how to program? Have you made a game before using GameMaker or made a map in Unreal Engine 3 or something?

That's the kind of stuff you gotta learn before you come up with a 300 page game design document.

At one point in my life I thought that I wanted to make video games. Then, I learned that I hated programming. So I didn't. I also thought that I wanted to learn to make Unreal Tournament maps, but then I found out how much work it was and I decided I didn't want to do that either.

You're attempting to make the hardest type of game you could possibly make before you even know C++ or whatever. Start small. Make a platformer. Add some enemies. Figure out how hitboxes work in those games. Your design philosophy is the equivalent of wanting to learn Calculus 3 when you don't know Algebra yet.

You might, like me, really not like programming or the actual "making games" part of making games, in which cause a project like this is unfortunately not a reality.

I hate to rain on your parade, but I switched majors from Computer Science to Business because even though I like building computers and playing PC games, coding and diagnosing code problems in entry level programming classes made me want to hang myself. If you feel that way too, than unfortunately a project like this is outside your grasp.
 
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You're attempting to make the hardest type of game you could possibly make

Tell me about it. Fighting game and RTS? Hard stuff man. So many variables to balance, and you never really know what the players are going to find a week from now. Seems like you have to think waaaaaaaaaaay in advance on every single thing.

I hate to rain on your parade, but I switched majors from Computer Science to Business because even though I like building computers and playing PC games, coding and diagnosing code problems in entry level programming classes made me want to hang myself. If you feel that way too, than unfortunately a project like this is outside your grasp.

I would just say, directed at the op in particular, not to give up if programming seems "too hard" at first. Don't pass it off until you've taken several classes at least, or because its not "fun" because whether you can do it or not, it's work no matter how you slice it.

My first Visual Basic class was kind of terrifying but after that my c++ class (which had nearly twice as many assignments, most of which were harder) felt considerably easier.
 
I mean yeah, don't give up if its hard. I was saying I actually didn't enjoy it at all and didn't want to do it. If that's the case game design isn't for you. There's a difference between wanting to learn something that is hard and enjoying learning it and not.
 
I'm actually not minding messing around Game Maker. The most annoying part is picking up assets/making assets and reading up through tons of walktrhoughs and tutorials to figure out how to do things.

EDIT: I have also stated many times that I'm putting Invocation on hold while I figure out what I want to do with the idea. I'm making a very simple game right now via game maker, and planning on, befoe making a fighting game at all, making a cruddy simple fighter to get experience with the type of things I'd have to do, and see if I want to do that, or if I want to transition the idea to something else.

Also, I don't know if I've stated this or not, but regardless, this was a passion project, and as such, I didn't have any plans to sell this or anything, just put a free download link and let ppl tear it apart.
 
I actually prefer to make my own, since I'm learning to sprite, but both of these links are a godsend, thanks :D
 
@North888, while you may not be fit to make a fighter in your mind, don't give up just go back and do your research honestly. When I first started designing characters I wanted them to be in anytype of game badly, well this year my friend was inspired to program a fighter and similar to the mike z and ahad. All I was good at was drawing on paper so we have 10 characters we want to use but I keep stalling cause I don't think im experienced enough to draw in photoshop nor animate, but we're a two man team and he never stopped studying his part so I can't quit mine. While I do the art, I do study fighters take notes and give my input in the programming, while he'll give his input in design choices and character types he wants me to draw out. Its a two man team like I said but nonetheless our synergy is on point...let me stop I feel like I'm getting off point lol
 
I'm not going to stop, I'm going to get experience first. I've never made a game and that needs to change. I've created sprites, but never actually used any of them, so I can alter myself to do that. I need to take this step by step and go slow if I actually want to make this into something!
 
I actually prefer to make my own, since I'm learning to sprite, but both of these links are a godsend, thanks :D

Sometimes quick prototyping can help you immensely, I'd recommend going for the quick approach over aesthetics when making something and learn spriting separately. Crank out those prototypes as fast as you can. You can make the sprites and add them in when you're done.

(this was emphasized to a great degree in the game design class I took)
 
That's probably a good idea. I was just using a bunch of my artwork as the sprites for my first game, and it looks so weird XD, but it's something.
 
Ok, so after some time away to think through what I want, and actually writing it out, going over it, and essentially double checking, I think I know HOW to word what I want...

The game will have an emphasis on short confrontations with shorter combos. A full combo should take off, depending on the character and the combo in question, about 40-45% HP. With a chain-system, meaning certain moves cancel into specific other moves, and with the emphasis on short confrontations, however, characters will most likely be focusing on getting high damage early in a combo and possibly using a reset or okizeme early to keep the opponent from getting an advantage back over them. How is this done? I'll detail below:
DEFENSE:
BURST:
Each Round of a Match, both players have a free burst they can use at will. This burst is about as effective as the one's in Skullgirls so it can be good to stop most combos. It is possible to bait this, as usual, by throwing a weak combo you know extends into a long one. Much the same most bursts in general, how it can only be used when in the middle of a combo, and only after taking 3 hits, so no special bursts that boost you if you hit the opponent with it outside of their combo.
E. BURST:
E is for Emergency. When your HP is below a certain amount (probably about 30%), you can use an E. Burst. There is no limit to the number of E. Bursts you can do, however, it DOES cost 75 meter, but also has almost no recovery, meaning that after use, you burst knock the foe away, and are almost immediately able to react, put yourself into a prime offensive or defensive position, etc. You can technically use E. Bursts an infinite number of times during a match, but with meter gain scaling, at most you'll get maybe 3 uses, but that's only if you used the E. Burst at 30% HP and reversed the match with the foes at 100% with a certain character. Needless to say, E. Bursts are your last gambit to prevent those longer and/or more deadly combos.
PERFECT GUARDING:
If you block or low-block an attack by pressing the back/down-back movement during a certain period of time when at attack would connect, you do a Perfect Guard, which is basically a Just Guard from Guilty Gear. You take no chip damage and increase block stun ever so slightly on said attack, slowing down their combo if they follow up and giving you a larger opening. Additionally, doing a Perfect Guard puts you in a PERFECTION state. Essentially, PERFECTION state means that, for so many frames after executing a Perfect Guard, you will block mid, low, high, and overheads with just holding the back movement. Now, this will maybe net you one extra free block, maybe two depending on the moves being thrown, but executing a Perfect Guard puts pressure on the enemy to let up ad back off, and gives you time to see their next move and retaliate or get them away.

All this adds up to make for a system that makes short, quick strings of attacks, maybe following with supers, far more effective than long combo strings that may be possible, depending on how things go and each character, but given that eating a burst puts the attacker at the disadvantage means that you'll want to bait and overall avoid that if possible. Now onto the offensive portion of this post:
OFFENSE:
Scaling: Scaling will depend on the moves used. The game rewards higher damage non-supers by applying less damage scaling, but of course higher-damaging attacks cannot chain as effectively as lower damage attacks, and most supers cannot be comboed off of. Put all this togethor, and it makes it more efficient to go for a short combo using higher-damaging moves that you end and put your opponent into a reset than it is to go for a full combo where you get more damage off the combo itself, but allow your opponent to get up and fight back much more effectively. On the meter side of things, it's a bit the opposite. Most moves net you the same amount of meter either way, but the longer your combo, the larger the boost to your meter. After so many hits, the amount of meter you get improves during said combo.
SUPERS:
Supers would be scaled, too, obviously. Since meter gain will often be lower, meaning it takes quite a bit more to get up to taht 50% to score a super, supers can be fairly devastating in their own right, so using them to finish off a combo may net you a damage boost, but would it be better to just save it as a counter or finisher? It's up to the player and these will be the kind of situations I'd like to create.
AERIAL:
While the air game will be there, it will less emphasized. Aerial offense will act mostly for finishers to longer combos or be used to set up certain situations. Aerial finishers will often knock the opponent away from you and increase their gravity slightly, so using it closer to the ground will allow you to hit the gound and get into a better position over them as opposed to pulling off a short string to avoid the scaling. Aerial moves may have a special game to them depending on the characters, too, of course, but most will have some sort of anti-air and moves that can also generally catch foes in the air. On the opposite end, however, many air attacks, especially medium or heavy ones, can act as overheads, so if you can do an effective jump in, you can use the high damage to start a short OR long combo, but start with lower scaling and a good hit in.

With all of these, playes are given the tools to counter each other and focus on jumping in and out of offensive and defensive roles. Effective use of the burst system IS necessary, as if you use it early or waste it, you may find yourself getting hammered with the longer combos, allowing the foe to wrack up more meter and devastate you. Saving it and being ready for the opponent to counter your actions and put you on the defense is key. Of course, how characters do these combos, create setups, and all of that will depend on the character. For example, Helma is a very in-your-face kind of character. Meant to get in and go for a combo. She's capable of both long and short streaks, and is just effective in general. On the flip side, you have Fleur, who needs to set these plants Rachel Alucard style, and then activate them via the pheromone he gives off, which can be done a numbe of ways. These plants then act like mines, grabbing foe that passes by them, able to do both air grabs (though these are blockable) and ground grabs (which can miss if the foe is thrown by them), meaning he has to manage the plants and use his low combo damage to go for a burst bait if possible and rely on his meter more than others to get the damage across. Still, both of these characters have tools to do short combos and play offense and defense.

On a side note, I'm thinking of doing away with the ASSIST system, it might make things convoluted. Also, the Opening Post is heavily outdated in some areas, and hopefully I will be able to update that. As far as explaining how things work, how does this work? Is it enough of a description to get the idea across, even with my limited vocabulary? Does it sound like it'd wok?
 
The game will have an emphasis on short confrontations with shorter combos. A full combo should take off, depending on the character and the combo in question, about 40-45% HP.

I don't like the damage combos.
I prefer the combos to be fancy, just like in Skullgirls.

Edit : Removed wall of text. Thank you Skarmand for reminding me.
 
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I don't like the damage combos.
I prefer the combos to be fancy, just like in Skullgirls.
That's fine. I never said that the combos would be super short, just that they wouldn't be massively long. I never planned for it to be possible to get Skullgirls levels of chains in, though. And Ima try to make everything look fancy!
 
An alternative to trying to come up with ideas before having a top level understanding of fighters/what you want out of a fighting game, would be to just go in with a blank slate and start messing around when your actually coding/designing a game. Sometimes (seen a lot of interviews noting it and experienced it myself) the process of building stuff can lead to unlikely sources of inspiration (ie glitches inspiring mechanics, random code side projects becoming full games, etc.). Applies to other game genres too.
 
You still are not addressing the basics of your fighting game engine, which is how many buttons you are going to have, how fast you want your buttons to be, how the basic movement is going to work etc. It's great that you sort of have an idea as far as how combat goes but having these basics is more important.

E Burst sounds like a really terrible idea since using meter to burst out of combos makes using meter for anything else almost useless.

How will increasing block stun make you able to create openings? If anything you're stuck for longer, which means you have less of a chance to escape.

If you don't understand how bad an idea reverse meter scaling is, especially since you have E Burst idea in your game then I dunno. There's a reason meter scales downwards, so as to prevent people from building supers while doing combos (not to say this shouldn't be possible in all games or that it isn't possible in all games but generally you want to avoid this concept of reverse meter scaling).

Overall I still don't understand what you want the game to play like outside of almost a combo focused game with not a lot of attention paid to the universal neutral tools that are in most games.
 
E Burst sounds like a really terrible idea since using meter to burst out of combos makes using meter for anything else almost useless.

Maybe if building a full bar was something that only happened about once per match? IE choose between escaping a combo or getting big damage each round? Not sure if that's good either, but just trying to play devil's advocate to the criticism.
 
@AOW_Yomabuddy You said everything I wanted to say.
Well, another thing about E burst. There's no reason to save your regular burst if you're guaranteed a burst every round and will have another in the late game. There's a reason why bursts don't restock after rounds in GG. It really makes you think about when is the best time to use it. Use it early and you're sure to have one in the next round. Use it late and you're screwed in the next round's early-mid game, but you might make that comeback. And if you can only activate when HP=30% and combos do 40%, then that means you only buy yourself one chance before you get touched and die.
 
One more thing before I go back to bed (just got over a cold that has been keeping me up for the past three days), but instead of trying to come up with full game idea/design document/concept before actually getting hands on, another alternative is just keep a note book and jot down any ideas you like and analytically why you like them. Jot down original ideas that come to you, things that you like in other games, things that you don't like in other games, things you'd like to see improved in other games, ideas on how to improve them, etc.. Keep re-reading it and rethinking the ideas, jotting down any new analysis or opinions on them that come to you (some ideas you'll need to sleep on before realizing they suck).

If you're like me and nearly all your school work is done on a computer, than doing it in notepad makes it way easier and faster. Also if you're actually sitting down to come up with ideas rather than writing them anytime they come to you, you're doing it wrong.
 
I don't like the damage combos.
I prefer the combos to be fancy, just like in Skullgirls.
PLEASE please don't quote entire walls of texts to respond with one line.
You can edit the quoted text in your post.
 
combos

So do you know any programming languages or how to put a stick figure in a game engine and have it have hitboxes and hit another stick figure with working hitstop and junk?

I think you're kind of a long way from combo systems dude.
 
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@North888

Why not try and work with something like MUGEN for a bit?

MUGEN is a sandbox fighting game engine that lets you make your own characters. Some can be very very poor quality, but some range from really balanced characters to even stage size boss characters.

Here's some examples:
 
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I'm learning the program. I didn't, in all honestly, want to post that wall of text stating my ideas, becuase I knew it would
A: recieve criticisms showing how little I actually know
B: cause people to ask if I actually know how to program.
I'm learning. The idea was from me brainstorming recently. I've recieved tons of great criticisms showing the issues with the systems I have had ideas for, and with these points, I see that the idea with the E Burst needs work, which I am planning. I have ideas for how I want the game to play, and I'm constantly brainstorming ideas.
I felt it was prudent to post this group of ideas, however, to show that I AM growing in my knowledge and trying to balance out these ideas instead of just doing what sounds cool. I'm try to plan ahead to a certain degree as I practice making cruddy games and learn how to do things.

As far as Mugen goes, that was something I was going to tinker about with once I transitioned to working more on my art skills. I'm planning on attempting to do the spriting for this game, maybe enlisting the help of some friends that could help hit the art style and make the sprites faster, but that's well down the line. I don't want to mess with the actual game aside from brainstorming until I can actually make it or start tinkering with the idea.

When I said Blockstun, I meant that it increases the recovery frames on the attacker, or basically slows down the time between those attacks. I used the wrong word, oops >_>

E Burst was an idea I had to help keep players on their toes. I know I need to rethink scaling and whatnot, but I really want a game that focuses on short confrontations as opposed to the long combos of Skullgirls. I still want the combos to be there, but not the thing the game rewards as heavily for doing. I'm, again, brainstorming ways to set the game up to do that, so I have some frame of mind for how to actually balance things once I get to it.
 
I still want the combos to be there, but not the thing the game rewards as heavily for doing.
Then why are you adding reverse scaling to things? Shouldn't you instead be aiming to scale combo damage, hitstun and meter gain very heavily, so that it's usually not worth finishing a combo and instead more rewarding to do a reset/set up okizeme?
 
I've noted that scaling for damage depends on the move. Higher damage moves, so heavier hitting moves, and finishers, create less scaling on future moves, so going for heavies early instead of bringing it up using low power moves is more effective, encouraging short to mid-length combos, meaning that if you want to effectively maximize damage you have short comboes and set yourself up for resets and okizemes. I also, again, wanted to scale meter effectively, but the way I had before, which was bascially the reverese of damage, probably isn't the smartest after the comments I've recieved, so I'll go back to thinking on that. Overall, the goal here is to kind of give everyone, myself included, an idea of what I want and what my current ideas are. How effective these ideas are and whether I'll actually use them when the time comes is up for debate...
 
Look at how SF4 makes you do small combos for punishes (outside of a few exceptions like Sakura and ERyu). They scale damage heavily except for the first hits (also important to note that SF4 scales damage by button input and not number of hits) so that most punishes are either an attack into a special (like Adon cl.HP XX H Rising Jaguar) or at the most, two attacks into a special (like Yun cr.MP far.MP XX H Upkicks). If you try to hitconfirm using light attacks your beefier hits and specials tend to not do a lot of damage (like Yun cr.LK cl.LP st.LP far MP XX H Upkicks does way worse damage than the first Yun combo due to lights not doing a lot of damage and the scaling by the time you reach the H Upkicks is pretty significant).

I'm assuming this kind of combos stuff is what you want. Also you can look at 3rd strike style hitconfirms if you want short combos (like Chun Li cr.MK XX SA2 being a one hit confirm).
 
E Burst was an idea I had to help keep players on their toes. I know I need to rethink scaling and whatnot, but I really want a game that focuses on short confrontations as opposed to the long combos of Skullgirls. I still want the combos to be there, but not the thing the game rewards as heavily for doing. I'm, again, brainstorming ways to set the game up to do that, so I have some frame of mind for how to actually balance things once I get to it.
Once again, it would be a good idea to study what other games do to let you come back from a life deficit.
Then you can decide why they are good/bad and come up with your own, or borrow from another.
Ex:
P4A/P4A2 gives you extra meter and gives you access to another super.
SSF4 gives you access to a new super, which gets stronger the less health you have.
Marvel gives you a boost to damage, and speed, depending on how many characters you have left.

Also, health based come back mechanics don't have to be a thing.
Such as awarding the person who is playing poorly and losing with a free get out of jail free card.
Many people feel cheated when someone can abuse a very powerful come back mechanic to undo all their opponents hard work off one small mistake.

I WANT SHORT COMBOS
You could just add a limit system or an undizzy system that starts building straight away.

Look at how Hisoutensoku shortens combos, every hit adds a % to the limit meter and when it hits 100% you get "blue ring'd" and fall over and can tech left and right freely, or you can stop your combo before the 100% limit and go for some mix up.

 
I don't think you know what kind of combo system you actually want or how combo systems actually work. Your combo system is simply based on the idea that "I don't like combos" which is a common criticism new players have with fighting games.

Compare a two in one in Super Turbo to a combo in Skullgirls or Guilty Gear and look at how much of the opponents total lifebar (roughly), it depletes. Anime/airdash games are going to have longer combos because of how they operate mechanically, but in terms of how much damage you are doing, how many hits it takes to kill the opponent on average is generally much more important than how long the combo is. A two in one in Super Turbo can do 20% or more damage, and that is two hits. A combo in an anime game might be 30 hits and do the same amount of damage. Trying to arbitrarily keep combo length down isn't going to dictate how many hits in neutral you actually need to get to win. People might find a 60% combo in a game that only ever lets you get 8 hits max, which is similar to what you want to do. There are way more things you need to be focusing on than combo length.

I'm not at all a fan of combos that go on forever and do no damage and waste everyone's time before it goes back to neutral. If that's your angle, I'm all for it. But I don't think that's why you want to keep combo length down, I just think you don't like long combos.
 
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It's
I don't think you know what kind of combo system you actually want or how combo systems actually work. Your combo system is simply based on the idea that "I don't like combos" which is a common criticism new players have with fighting games.

Compare a two in one in Super Turbo to a combo in Skullgirls or Guilty Gear and look at how much of the opponents total lifebar (roughly), it depletes. Anime/airdash games are going to have longer combos because of how they operate mechanically, but in terms of how much damage you are doing, how many hits it takes to kill the opponent on average is generally much more important than how long the combo is.
It's not that I don't like combos, but I do prefer noticably shorter combos. However, you are right that most airdashers are like that, so I may want to retink the word "Short" for something like "decent length."

Fo your second point, though, Mike Z pointed out that it's more on how many moves as hits, which is what I think you mean here, and yes, I need to do that. I have many things to do, which is exactly why I shelved working on the characters and world until I have something tangible to work with.

I've been playing Skullgirls a lot more during my freetime, that and Melty Blood. I'm starting to get better at MB, but transitioning fluidly into those air combos and not missing like 50% of my combos is still something I'm working on....then agian, I can only really plug about 30 minutes into each a day recently due to life reasons. But I am researching and looking at other fighters.
 
The hardest part of designing a fighting game, at least in my opinion, is "how much reward should you get for hits/how much reward should you get for what types of hits?" There's a lot of ways you go about answering that question besides combo length.
 
The hardest part of designing a fighting game, at least in my opinion, is "how much reward should you get for hits/how much reward should you get for what types of hits?" There's a lot of ways you go about answering that question besides combo length.
Don't I know it?
*post idea for how systems work*
*gets torn to shreds*
I'm actually glad I decided to make my goal to make a fighting game, even if I have to make a bunch of simple practice games first and do the whole thing myself. It's been a good learning experience, and opened me up to the type of criticisms I'll be getting. It's criticisms that feel harsh, but are true. I won't be posting ideas for the game for awhile, btw, I'm gonna put more resources towards programming practice!

I may post the occasional concept sketch, though...Which are really just sketches done when I have time between classes and can't work on anything else XD
 
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Not trying to be a jerk. Its just combo systems are the easiest way to screw up your game if you don't know how and why things work day 1. Even major games backed by studios sometimes ship with day one infinites.

I'm not trying to be condescending at all. I'm glad you are learning programming! You should try the stick figure idea once you know how to code to get an idea of how hitboxes and things like that work.

I want people that want to become game designers to actually do so, but its a very hard task, and there is a lot of reality between a concept design and a final product. You're better off hearing this stuff now rather than later.
 
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