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Keeping People Honest

Oh my god Virginia

Here's something that I guess not everyone knows, Big Band's Super Sonic Jazz can be thrown. It doesn't really look like it because he leaves the ground during the move but you can throw the heck out of that. L and M Beat Extend are also only strike invincible, not throw invincible, and of course his armored moves like all armored moves can be thrown. So try resetting Big Band with throws! Uh well just LP+LK would lose to Super Sonic Jazz but something like level 2 Sing xx Daisy Pusher will beat all his reversal options.
 
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Let's get the more or less obvious things outta the way:

Parasoul:
- Pillar has a deadspace in the middle of it, giving you plenty of possibilities for crossup setups which are right above Parasoul during her reversal window, dodging possible Pillars. Also eg Filia 9HK will dodge it.

Peacock:
- MP Bang is only strike invincible, meaning you can throw her out of it.
- Obviously you can jump over it pretty easily
- Less obvious: It can also be low profiled, meaning eg Filia/Fukua c.HK on her wakeup will beat it

MsFortune:
- Fiber is only fully invincible while head-on; headless Fiber is throw-invuln only
- Headroll has a long period where it is throw vulnerable.. sadly not the entire period of it though <>

Double:
- LK Butt has 2f vuln startup, meaning it will lose to meaty attacks

Squigly:
- Daisy Pusher can be tagged out of on reaction to the superflash if you were pressing a button

BBand:
- L Beat Extend has 1f vuln startup, then only hit invuln, but has an AA hitbox
- M Beat Extend is only hit invuln, and only during the bottom hit, so is gonna lose to / trade with jumpins
- H Beat extend is fully invuln, but also only invuln during the bottom hit.

Fukua:
- H Drill is throwable

Will extend on this later, too lazy right now
 
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mcpeanuts said:
Oh my god Virginia

Here's something that I guess not everyone knows, Big Band's Super Sonic Jazz can be thrown. It doesn't really look like it because he leaves the ground during the move but you can throw the heck out of that. L and M Beat Extend are also only strike invincible, not throw invincible, and of course his armored moves like all armored moves can be thrown. So try resetting Big Band with throws! Uh well just LP+LK would lose to Super Sonic Jazz but something like level 2 Sing xx Daisy Pusher will beat all his reversal options.

So, only throws with some measure of invincibility. I didn't know about Beat Extend losing to throws though, what about Timpani?
 
View619 said:
So, only throws with some measure of invincibility. I didn't know about Beat Extend losing to throws though, what about Timpani?
Well the reason you can throw Super Sonic Jazz is because it doesn't have any invincibility after the flash, just armor. So you could throw it after the flash, but because of hitstop you can't input anything after the flash. So you need something like Daisy Pusher where you can input it before SSJ's flash but it will still be active after it. You can also beat it with Cerebella Lock n Load then cancel into 360 after the flash. You need something like that, basically. I'm sure other people can think of other examples.

Tympani's interesting actually. It doesn't get its first active frame until after the last invincible frame, so it tends to trade with things, right? Apparently if two moves trade and one of them was a throw, the throw just wins. I tested this with Icky, you can't get out of air grab resets using Tympani Drive at all.
 
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mcpeanuts said:
Well the reason you can throw Super Sonic Jazz is because it doesn't have any invincibility after the flash, just armor. So you could throw it after the flash, but because of hitstop you can't input anything after the flash. So you need something like Daisy Pusher where you can input it before SSJ's flash but it will still be active after it. You can also beat it with Cerebella Lock n Load then cancel into 360 after the flash. You need something like that, basically. I'm sure other people can think of other examples.
It can be beat with MGR as well, if you do it before the flash.
 
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if it can be diamond dropped it can probably be Pummel Horsed. Unless Diamond Drop has full invincible frames I'm forgetting about.
 
Kay, Diamond Drop does have invincible frames, so timed right it can definitely beat Super Sonic Jazz. And Pummel Horse can also beat it, but only before the flash. You can catch Big Band out of startup with it, using say s.hk, Pummel Horse. SSJ does have invincible startup, so a grab has to either land pre-flash or have invincibility/armor.

Edit: And I guess, just because we're on the topic of SSJazz, other things as bella that can beat it. lnl into showstopper, like Peanuts said, beats it, but so does Devil Horns into showstopper, and Tumble Run into Showstopper. And the special thing about Tumble Run is that you can Kanchou, so you can kanchou feint into Showstopper (if you want to throw them to the other side of the screen), or you can just Kanchou Feint and avoid it completely. If your back is to the corner when this happens and you feint, then get a full HCH combo as he recovers.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
stuff
I know it doesn't have any invul frames, but it's interesting to know this too. Regular throw (LPLK) also works.
(ignore layout, wrong scene @ OBS)
[av]http://a.pomf.se/tiicle.webm[/av]
 
Another thing I forgot to mention

Parasoul's HP HP xx Napalm shot isn't a true blockstring unless you are at point blank range. Characters like Cerebella can just 360 her. Either I'm doing it wrong or I have to block HP fairly long away in order to be able to Merry-Go-Rilla.
 
So, this thread isn't just about dealing with super mashing into safe dhc? Great!
 
I lolled at thread when it complained about "mashed" reversals... Then goes into "how to beat pillar"


Dat pillar mash to stronk.
 
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Shit guys in sorry, next time I'll make a thread on how annoying some of this is and ask for it be changed as opposed to finding ways around it.

I guess I'll make an individual topic for every individual thing while I'm at it.
 
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RemiKz said:
Another thing I forgot to mention

Parasoul's HP HP xx Napalm shot isn't a true blockstring unless you are at point blank range. Characters like Cerebella can just 360 her. Either I'm doing it wrong or I have to block HP fairly long away in order to be able to Merry-Go-Rilla.

painwheels in the past have pushblocked and beur'd me (m version iirc) for doing that block string. It's not great and we get away with it a lot more often than we should.
 
Zidiane said:
Ya'll finally starting to figure out why I play pad? No one can see shit. And when you can hear me mashing? It's only cause I allow you to hear me mash. Then, when I need to, the silent mash comes. Your bulky noise boxes are inferior. DWI.

Wait Zid, you're a pad warrior too?

Now I gotta play you.
 
Doing some testing against Catheads with my team right now.

I'll share what I've found.

Jumping out of Pillar xx Bikes only works if Soul is a bit of a distance away from you during Pillar otherwise you get hit by the first bike.

Bikes xx Catheads is easy to punish with alpha counter into HP brass xx supersonic jazz. Very lenient timing.
- Supersonic Jazz > 214HK xx Supersonic Jazz wastes an ENTIRE CATHEADS. yay!

Bikes xx Catheads is punishable with alpha counter into cereopter xx super.
- Dynamo is a bit difficult to hit consistently despite its speed.
- 360 seems to be the better option in pretty much every circumstance.
- Is difficult in general because either there is no reversal window during alpha counter or its just tighter than usual/some weird buffer thing but seems much harder to hit reversal timing than out of PBGC for example.
 
What characters did you do that Pillar Bikes jump with, Tomo.
Val can jump that at any distance from para when para's not in/close to the corner. (this corner business is true for everybody, but everybody can just pbgc jab in the corner)
Parasoul can jump it at point blank as well. She has to high profile herself though with j.LK, j.HK or a toss.
Bella doesn't even need to jump. Just Ddrop.
Squigly has a similar problem to Para, but j.LK will do just fine.
All of the other characters must have some way to avoid it with a neutral jump. I imagine Fortune can just jump and PW requires you to fly or something. The only exception here being probably BB.

Are you sure you tested it with the earliest possible everything? (read: earliest possible cancel into bikes, earliest possible jump)
 
Izzmo said:
What characters did you do that Pillar Bikes jump with, Tomo.
Val can jump that at any distance from para when para's not in/close to the corner. (this corner business is true for everybody, but everybody can just pbgc jab in the corner)
Parasoul can jump it at point blank as well. She has to high profile herself though with j.LK, j.HK or a toss.
Bella doesn't even need to jump. Just Ddrop.
Squigly has a similar problem to Para, but j.LK will do just fine.
All of the other characters must have some way to avoid it with a neutral jump. I imagine Fortune can just jump and PW requires you to fly or something. The only exception here being probably BB.

Are you sure you tested it with the earliest possible everything? (read: earliest possible cancel into bikes, earliest possible jump)
It was Peacock, you can probably high profile it somehow now that you mention that yeah.

BB doesn't need to jump it he can parry 2 or 3 times then get a conterhit 2MK

EDIT:

Hatred Install is actually completely safe, right?

Peacock Bomb DHC is an interesting one.

BB alpha counter into Supersonic Jazz is fast enough to punish, but if you try to do a follow up super, the bomb will stop you from reaching Peacock and will explode in your face.

Cerebella alpha counter into 360 is a little tight, but it works. Just make sure not to cancel the end, if you don't cancel it Peacock will be hit by the bomb and you will be fine in your invincibility. If you DO cancel it you are not invincible by the time the bomb explodes and Peacock gets to tech her blue bounce while you are flying away.




DHC into Bikes is annoying.

BB seems to flat out lose to this, which sucks. Well... level 3 works haha. Level 5 works hehehe.

Cerebella gets a very easy 360, but that seems to be the only option. Or level 3, but why wouldn't you 360.
 
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RemiKz said:
Shit guys in sorry, next time I'll make a thread on how annoying some of this is and ask for it be changed as opposed to finding ways around it.

I guess I'll make an individual topic for every individual thing while I'm at it.


I didnt mean to be as snarky as that was. What i really mean is the only safe on block dhc that seems to a be a problem to me, is DD into cats, or DD into hatred install.


DD is completely mashable, hitstop unblockable and is on a character where its pretty stupid to ground bait mashes cause hey, that command grab mixup. And hey DD hits half screen all around bella.

Pillar on the other hand isnt mashable, is a charge move, and has terrible horizontal reach making it really easy to horizontally space bait.

I just found it funny that something that is a real problem like DD, get OVERSHADOWED by the non mashable reversal.


Anyways... Besides the techy options to beat these, a good old fashioned reversal bait works wonders against everything not named diamond dynamo.
 
My write-up on the dynamo > catheads thing would have probably gone on way longer so I just made a quick video on it. The fact that it was later on in my post was just by chance the way I had stuff laid out on wordpad.
 
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Diamon Dynamo actually seems really easy to punish safe DHCs after, at least from what I've found in training mode. This is interesting for the future of the game I think.

Opera DHC is pretty easy to punish with whatever you want basically. Well, anything armoured/invincible
 
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Tomo009 said:
Diamon Dynamo actually seems really easy to punish safe DHCs after, at least from what I've found in training mode. This is interesting for the future of the game I think.


Hmm... Yeah that would be good for the future. Might even give me reason besides peacock to switchup my current team, seeing as to how my current team is based on invincible reversals into safe on block (not safe on wiff) dhc's.

I was rather mad when i made up that team and being able to spend all my meter on kill combos instead of just safe dhc seems funner... Shoutouts to oldschool sg.
 
Spending meter on keeping your opponent honest, is a good use of meter I think haha.
 
mcpeanuts said:
Zid posting just reminded me, if you wanna know if someone's trying to mash reversal while you're comboing them, just take a peek at their hands and see what they're doing, or listen for the button presses.

Playing online? LMFAO @ u


Not gonna lie, went to a local this Friday and while I was doing my bnb I looked at the guy's stick to make sure he wasn't up backing before I did my reset, I am a fucking fraud.

A real alternative to all of these though is to drop your combo into a meaty assist then do more pressure. Or just do a few burst baits that let you get right back in if they don't take the bait. I really just want to say git gud because fuck this thread when it pops up like its groundhog's day and Bill Murray just drove of a fucking cliff to get away from everyone talking about reversal supers.
 
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Outside of Alpha Counter -> Fenrir/Showstopper, is there a way to punish a Dynamo xx Cat Heads DHC even if the Double blocks immediately? Can you alpha counter with a grab assist for example, and punish the recovery of Cat Heads?

Edit:

Nevermind, I saw alpha counters punishing it during start-up. Moral of the story, have at least one character on your team with a good alpha counter.
 
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What's the startup on Catheads?
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Related to Catheads and Super > Catheads.
The assist actually doesn't need to be invincible if you can hit the (I think 1 frame in this situation =/) window to reversal.

I've managed to do this with Bella copter and Peacock bomb assists.
 
Its possible for a normal throw to beat wakeup SSJ but its a 2 frame window. SSJ has two throw invincible frames before the flash, and none after it.

A typical normal throw has 2 active frames. The normal throw will beat SSJ if one of the two active frames of the throw overlap the first active frame of SSJ, because a throw will always beat a 'hit' type move if they collide on the same frame.

Time it too early and the throw whiffs though SSJ's short throw invincible startup.
Time it too late and the throw gets hit by SSJ before it comes out.

Command throws like MGR, DD, Daisy Pusher, all have longer active frames than a normal throw, so its much easier for you to time it correctly to beat SSJ.
 
IsaVulpes said:
1.

Huh, I must be getting it confused with something else.

Point stands though, its possible for SSJ to lose to a normal throw.
 
Since I've been doing j.HP armor setups with PW against my opponent's recovery, I have won every instance of reversal super lately, save for one instance of Dio Scalpels. I've also stuffed almost every instance of raw tag. The ones I didn't punish were some I simply wasn't ready for.

Because the setup beats Reversal Super, they stop doing it. This means I'm free to do other things.
 
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