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Mashing Supers

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So returning to the topic:
What are the reasons for people specifically hating on Filia mashing supers?
What about her supers in the given scenario is a problem?

PW's level 3 has a similar effect to Filia's supers. *Provided it only works on the ground.
It also can become a valuable reversal tool if used correctly. Yet no one complains about it.
What's the difference beyond the amount of meter it takes? Is it not conceptually the same?

The more precise question is, do you find it unfair? Why or why not?
 
I really don't mind counter supers being gone, since that was a little stupid hahaha. I really do like the beta changes, though. Being able to block after the superflash is really nice

@StripeyBoosh
Filia's costs only 1 meter, can be done in the air and on the ground with the same input, can be combo'd from, and can be hard to punish on whiff [and even block sometimes]
 
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StripeyBoosh said:
So returning to the topic:
What are the reasons for people specifically hating on Filia mashing supers?
What about her supers in the given scenario is a problem?

PW's level 3 has a similar effect to Filia's supers. *Provided it only works on the ground.
It also can become a valuable reversal tool if used correctly. Yet no one complains about it.
What's the difference beyond the amount of meter it takes? Is it not conceptually the same?

The more precise question is, do you find it unfair? Why or why not?
well for one thing painwheel's level 3 is ground only and is 3 bars, so that seems pretty fair. although gregor is way better i think it's fair. all mashed supers are fair, they're just really annoying to deal with. although i guess i could just get better at guessing when they're going to mash
 
Negus Eyoel said:
well for one thing painwheel's level 3 is ground only and is 3 bars, so that seems pretty fair. although gregor is way better i think it's fair. all mashed supers are fair, they're just really annoying to deal with. although i guess i could just get better at guessing when they're going to mash
I see.
It's one of those things that are easier said than done. Personally I think of it the same way.
I try not to mash, just because I feel that I'm not using my head at that point.
I seem to do better when I'm more observant of my opponent's attacks, and don't reach for a "fix all" solution.

I usually only use supers on the offensive anyway. Sometimes PW's arial super will get me out of a tight spot.
But crawl has yet to be of much use defensively. I hate deathcrawl btw. But that's another story.

Domo said:
@StripeyBoosh
Filia's costs only 1 meter, can be done in the air and on the ground with the same input, can be combo'd from, and can be hard to punish on whiff [and even block sometimes]
It just seems to me that PW's level 3 can turn the match around entirely (and rather easily). So the nature is similar.
But I see your point. You get more bang for your buck with Gregor.
It just doesn't occur to me that it's all that great, to be honest. But I don't think I've played a Filia that consistently mashed it either.
 
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I don't mind mashed supers.

I have updo and fiber upper.

I can do both at the same time if I want to.

and in a combo well you just call updo at the point you may or may not drop.

(I probably should've read the whole thread.)
 
Filia's is the worst for all above said. Air or ground, there are other mashable supers but they are ground only....or air only (Fortune's?). With Filia going for a reset on ground or air is risky unless it is a cross up kind. Her mashed super also knocks the opponent far away and has tons of follow up potential.
 
i think when the defensive capability of meter usage outside of raw mashing are more realized by the general player base, the use of mashed supers will go down. the game is still pretty young and a lot of things are going straight up pretty unused
 
Oh wow, it's open again.
StripeyBoosh said:
I try not to mash, just because I feel that I'm not using my head at that point.
I see it like this. What if no one in SF4 had learned how to safe jump or block while their opponent was getting up (they used the excuse that they shouldn't have to cater to scrubby play to not do it)? Characters with wakeup DPs would be god like on that alone. Wake up dp requires no thought like mashed supers, but because of the nature of the games, mashed supers are more damaging. It doesn't change the fact that it's entirely up to the attacker whether or not he gets hit. I think the biggest difference between us and other games is that we don't already have everything figured out. For SF4, a lot of the strategies in that game were already being used since previous games. Baiting wakeup dps, safe jumps, footsies, all that. Skullgirls just hasn't discovered what's at the heart (:PUN:) of the game and learned to play around that yet.
 
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Maybe mashing supers is more damaging in SG than in SF4, but in general random confirms do way more damage in SG than in SF4, otherwise matches would take too long with 3 characters.
 
SF4 is a footsie game, though. Of course odd hits aren't going to do as much.
 
Zidiane said:
Baiting wakeup dps, safe jumps, footsies, all that.

the thing is though all of those components you are talking about which affected sf4 that already existed in other sf games are also completely transferable skill wise to SG (with maybe the expception of a specific example like safe jumps, but the same idea of the desired result exists). that is what is referred to when people say "fundamentals".

the reason sf4 is more advanced and thought out in that regard has to do with the player base, not the game.
 
Jason said:
but in general random confirms do way more damage in SG than in SF4
Only if you look at random hits that lead to full combos (which admittedly are most hits in this game)
Footsie tools like Parasoul j.HP aren't doing any damage in this game
 
Dictating the match pace by turning the game into a pseudo footsie fight can really throw off the timing when people try to mash super on the defensive.

Also reveals which opponents have decent neutral game and which opponents are only comfortable when they control the momentum.You then adjust accordingly in the match depending on which category the opponent falls under.
 
IsaVulpes said:
Only if you look at random hits that lead to full combos (which admittedly are most hits in this game)
Footsie tools like Parasoul j.HP aren't doing any damage in this game

Does plenty of damage if you hit a grounded opponent.
 
GirlyStyle said:
the reason sf4 is more advanced and thought out in that regard has to do with the player base, not the game.
There are fundamentals yeah, but this game is different. It's harder to do safe jumps (there are a few, but they are almost non existent), baiting a dp by holding back on wakeup in this game isn't even a thing you can do because there are very few hard knockdowns (less with the removal of the sweep-burst hard knockdown OS), and many strategies that seem to be prevalent in other games aren't usable here. You can't simply play the game, you have to play the player. That's been true in all games, but it feels more true here. There are matchups, but they don't feel like they dictate the players actions (probably because there's an assist for everything and PBGCs).
Jason said:
Does plenty of damage if you hit a grounded opponent.
That's has nothing to do with random or mashed anything, that is a jump in.
 
GirlyStyle said:
i think when the defensive capability of meter usage outside of raw mashing are more realized by the general player base, the use of mashed supers will go down. the game is still pretty young and a lot of things are going straight up pretty unused

If I mash during combos, I don't have any meter for PBGC Flatline/Scalpels, PBGC Thresher, or PBGC Bomber > Cats all of which lead to a lot of same repercussions/conversions people are upset to see during a dropped combo.

Also obligatory "when's alpha counter metagame".
 
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Zidiane said:
Well there's probably exceptions, but in general. I can't get Filia's j.hp to get around Pillar, I'm not sure if I'm doing it right. Pillar will still always beat regular j.hk overhead from her. About Val, I'm not sure. I can't get j.hp to avoid it, I guess the only other thing she might do is j.mp? or j.lk? And do the things you are talking about also beat lvl 3 mash?

But still, I was mainly talking about resetting characters. As Filia IAD j.hk does avoid Pillar though. And now you know, you have matchup info.
There's been multiple times on stream of me versus Nate where I pillard, but he was able to instant air dash ove rit and hit me with Filia. it looks COMPLETELY wrong since Filia literally flies through the pillar flames but just ignores them
 
Icky said:
There's been multiple times on stream of me versus Nate where I pillard, but he was able to instant air dash ove rit and hit me with Filia. it looks COMPLETELY wrong since Filia literally flies through the pillar flames but just ignores them

Do you know how hard it is to actually burn fat with fire?
 
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Icky said:
There's been multiple times on stream of me versus Nate where I pillard, but he was able to instant air dash ove rit and hit me with Filia. it looks COMPLETELY wrong since Filia literally flies through the pillar flames but just ignores them
Oh yeah, Isavulpes showed me earlier. I didn't know she would avoid it in the corner. And yeah, it does look wrong, when's that getting fixed?
 
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Zidiane said:
There are fundamentals yeah, but this game is different. It's harder to do safe jumps (there are a few, but they are almost non existent), baiting a dp by holding back on wakeup in this game isn't even a thing you can do because there are very few hard knockdowns (less with the removal of the sweep-burst hard knockdown OS), and many strategies that seem to be prevalent in other games aren't usable here. You can't simply play the game, you have to play the player. That's been true in all games, but it feels more true here. There are matchups, but they don't feel like they dictate the players actions (probably because there's an assist for everything and PBGCs).

but i am not saying you have to 'play the game' as opposed to 'play the player' at all.

fundamentals are transferable across every game because fundamentals generally have to do with playing the player. you just turned what i was talking about concerning fundamentals into extremely specific examples.

"doing a safe jump", "baiting a dp", etc isn't what i mean by fundamentals; its the know how in that situation that a "safe jump" or "dp bait" will work against the person you are playing in that situation.


it has little to do with the way the game is designed and everything to do with the way the players approach the game (hence this whole mash super discussion in the first place). a big thing is that a lot SG players don't know how to condition their opponents yet in order to make their wheel of options available through the mechanics work to their full advantage yet. it doesn't matter too much what those actual mechanics are, its the mentality on how to make the most of them.

why do you think when justin wong or chris g decide to play they do fairly well without practicing the game?
 
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hlvn said:
If I mash during combos, I don't have any meter for PBGC Flatline/Scalpels, PBGC Thresher, or PBGC Bomber > Cats all of which lead to a lot of same repercussions/conversions people are upset to see during a dropped combo.

Also obligatory "when's alpha counter metagame".

additionally, the thing about burning meter on mashed super vs. alpha counter/pbgc is that since you are reacting to a situation with AC/PBGC, you are using your meter to have a guaranteed result (this being said under the trust you are using those mechanics properly in situations where you know they will gain desired results)
 
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GirlyStyle said:
additionally, the thing about burning meter on mashed super vs. alpha counter/pbgc is that since you are reacting to a situation with AC/PBGC, you are using your meter to have a guaranteed result.

this being said under the trust you .. will gain desired results

I think that's a big part of why mashing is so trusted though; the playerbase is relatively unskilled, so it's a very reasonable guess that people will drop a combo due to mechanical mistakes.

in cases where they're great players like Duck or Sage, it's a reasonable guess on their part that the person they are playing will go for a reset when they know that they haven't proven to Duck/Sage that their reset should be respected and played out.

to quote sage/ken, "LAUGH MY ASS OFF IF YOU THOUGHT I WASN'T MASHING"
 
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GirlyStyle said:
why do you think when justin wong or chris g decide to play they do fairly well without practicing the game?
I was under the impression that it was because the players they went up against were bad. That was the impression I got when I played Chris G last year at ECT.
 
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hlvn said:
I think that's a big part of why mashing is so trusted though; the playerbase is relatively unskilled, so it's a very reasonable guess that people will drop a combo. in cases where they're great players like Duck or Sage, it's a reasonable guess on their part that the person they are playing will go for a reset when they know that they don't feel conditioned to respect it yet.

to quote sage/ken, "LAUGH MY ASS OFF IF YOU THOUGHT I WASN'T MASHING"


hence why i say the problem isn't people mashing supers, its players not knowing how to condition the opponent not to. if we don't the meta won't evolve.

Zidiane said:
I was under the impression that it was because the players they went up against were bad. That was the impression I got when I played Chris G last year at ECT.

exactly! they don't even play the game but they do well because of *~fundamentals~*, as opposed to people who do practice the game, but don't have them and are therefore considered bad.
 
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GirlyStyle said:
Exactly! they don't even play the game but they do well because of *~fundamentals~*, as opposed to people who do practice the game, but don't have them and are therefore considered bad.
... oh yeah, I guess so. I still think the inner workings of the game being commonly accepted would on it's own boost everyone's level at the game. It's weird having people refuse to abide by the rules of the game because they don't think that's how the game does/should work.
 
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How to play Skullgirls:
Do big combo
Do burst bait (or maybe 2)
If burst then they mashing don't be stupid just do more burst baits until they stop
Else they ain't mashing pull some sick resets
Mix in some extra burst baits if you wanna play it safe
No more suffering from tactless mashers

Also if you need to reset at the end of a match to win don't be stupid, go for a burst bait under normal circumstances (of course if you know your opponent and they know you then adapt and change up what you go for); they have the lowest risk out of anything in the game and at the absolute worst all you lose is your pressure.
 
Zidiane said:
... oh yeah, I guess so. I still think the inner workings of the game being commonly accepted would on it's own boost everyone's level at the game. It's weird having people refuse to abide by the rules of the game because they don't think that's how the game does/should work.


unsure what you mean by "rules of the game", are you able to clarify?
 
GirlyStyle said:
unsure what you mean by "rules of the game", are you able to clarify?
That people are able to mash gregor and you shouldn't be doing an air reset if they can.
 
Zidiane said:
That people are able to mash gregor and you shouldn't be doing an air reset if they can.


i understand what you are saying, like people shouldn't complain if they get hit by it because hey they did, but i don't agree 100% with "you shouldn't be doing an air reset if they can" because that is situational based on what else has happened in the match
 
Oh hey, it's Pali's complaint about the new version. I was waiting for this, since there's been a Pali complaint about every version so far.

If the meta is still people mashing supers, and it's working, then that's the top strategy available because this is as good as people will ever get. There is no way to improve from here, and the game provides zero tools for the other player to deal with that mashing and somehow bait or punish the super. It certainly is not a first-order optimal strategy, no sir.
 
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If players ever figure out how to use the many methods of dealing with/punishing mashing then the game will evolve into the use of PBGC/Alpha Counters/Burst Alpha Counters, etc. However, as long as mashing super is beating everybody (otherwise, why would these threads keep popping up), then this is the way the game will be played. Not sure why you don't just learn how to blow it up instead of constantly whining about it. If scrubs are the only ones doing it, yet you can't beat it then what are you?

This reminds me of vanilla (?) when people kept calling @Zidiane a mashing scrub, yet he kept winning sets. And I'm sure people still do.
 
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GirlyStyle said:
exactly! they don't even play the game but they do well because of *~fundamentals~*, as opposed to people who do practice the game, but don't have them and are therefore considered bad.

Lets be fair here - A few hundred hours of SG is not going to overcome 10+ years of top-level competitive fighting game experience when a lot of the people who play this game have picked it up as one of the first FGs they decided to play seriously.
 
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Jason said:
Lets be fair here - A few hundred hours of SG is not going to overcome 10+ years of top-level competitive fighting game experience when a lot of the people who play this game have picked it up as one of the first FGs they decided to play seriously.

yeah i wouldn't think otherwise. that's part of what i was pointing out. what i said had nothing to do with being fair or unfair, it was just part of a larger point.
 
Jason said:
Lets be fair here - A few hundred hours of SG is not going to overcome 10+ years of top-level compeditive fighting game experience when a lot of the people who play this game have picked it up as one of the first FGs they decided to play seriously.
That's where I disagree.
I think it has more to do with who the new player is; some kids can pick this up really fast, others can't.
It doesn't take all that long to learn, really. The hard part is putting yourself in a position where you're actually learning.
Old habits from other games can also screw you up here.
 
Just to note, there is mashing in SF4 at high levels (primarily ultras and reversals while being hit by a combo).
 
blufang said:
Just to note, there is mashing in SF4 at high levels (primarily ultras and reversals while being hit by a combo).
That comes from two things, though:
- Combos involve lots of tight links, which even good players will drop occasionally.
and
- If they drop and you block it, you can't do anything while blocking in SF4 so you might as well be reversal-ing.

The same defense-being-weak issue means that you don't really bait mashing during combos because intentionally dropping a link and baiting a DP can lead to DP-FADC and you are now on the receiving end of pressure from a very un-risky mash.
 
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True, that's one of the sucky things about SF4.
 
Are people discussing mashing supers in context of online or offline play? Cause online I can mash all day and my opponent won't know until after the fact. Offline play (a Canadian myth) it's pretty obvious when someone's mashing and if you aren't punishing that accordingly...welp

edit: GirlyStyle teach me fundies pls
 
I think that the term "mashing" is being thrown around a lot simply to denigrate players who are doing something fundamentally valid. At the end of the day "mashing" is really just an option select. If you continue the combo I get hit and no harm is done. If you try to reset I get a reversal. Seems like a smart tactic to me, if used judiciously. You can bait my mashed super, just like you can bait my crouch-tech, but that doesn't mean that crouch-teching is the hallmark of an unskilled player.

In conclusion, mashed supers are prevalent in this game because they are an option-select that covers two cases: the opponent finishes his combo and the opponent goes for a reset. Until SG players start throwing out counters to this option-select, they will continue to be outplayed by mashers who have no incentive to not use this technique.
 
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Choose Goose said:
Are people discussing mashing supers in context of online or offline play? Cause online I can mash all day and my opponent won't know until after the fact. Offline play (a Canadian myth) it's pretty obvious when someone's mashing and if you aren't punishing that accordingly...welp

edit: GirlyStyle teach me fundies pls

Which reminds me, I have to remember to order my silent stick/buttons before I play anybody face to face....
 
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