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Mashing Supers

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No one should be taking online THAT seriously in the first place.

You're hit by crossups you block, inputs are dropped, and people teleport, it happens.
 
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iLoli said:
No one should be taking online THAT seriously in the first place.

You're hit by crossups you block, inputs are dropped, and people teleport, it happens.

For a lot of us, online is all we got, especially for this game.
 
Jason said:
For a lot of us, online is all we got, especially for this game.
I know man.

There were times were I tried mb online, and while it was all I had, you just can't let it get to you.
 
iLoli said:
No one should be taking online THAT seriously in the first place.

You're hit by crossups you block, inputs are dropped, and people teleport, it happens.

Totally. It's a lot more fun when you're not so bent on winning all of the time.
I don't know what it is, but people treat quickmatches like it's EVO grand finals or something.
 
GirlyStyle said:
i understand what you are saying, like people shouldn't complain if they get hit by it because hey they did, but i don't agree 100% with "you shouldn't be doing an air reset if they can" because that is situational based on what else has happened in the match

To add onto this, when you're fighting filia cross under resets still beat mashed gregors. At least from my experience they do. Wouldn't bother going for a air reset vs fortune or painwheel if you don't have any kind of momentum. Reset them on the ground instead.
SonicFox5000 said:
@Zidiane I dont think you understand. This thread is subliminal hatemail toward me even from the vids hes posted before. Whyyyyy open it back up?!
maaaaaan **** this sonicfox kid.
GirlyStyle said:
exactly! they don't even play the game but they do well because of *~fundamentals~*, as opposed to people who do practice the game, but don't have them and are therefore considered bad.
It's pretty nuts how many people I've played who couldn't really hit me and I would sit there asking myself if they where new to the game. Then they'd finally hit me and do some... crazy... combos. But yeah fundementals imo go as far as just knowing how to move with your character. Chris g may not play this game, but he at least knew how to move around with fortune.
Choose Goose said:
Offline play (a Canadian myth) it's pretty obvious when someone's mashing and if you aren't punishing that accordingly...welp
Hahaha #PadBoys
 
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Choose Goose said:
Are people discussing mashing supers in context of online or offline play? Cause online I can mash all day and my opponent won't know until after the fact.

Online, it's an educated guess. Either that they're going to drop combos due to execution problems, or that they're going to go for a reset without actually proving to you that they can/will punish mashing.

Offline play (a Canadian myth) it's pretty obvious when someone's mashing and if you aren't punishing that accordingly...welp

Offline, people can mash dead/unmapped buttons. It's a good thing to have on your stick if you're a stick player.
 
dekillsage said:
It's pretty nuts how many people I've played who couldn't really hit me and I would sit there asking myself if they where new to the game. Then they'd finally hit me and do some... crazy... combos.

This is a result of the way the game's incentives lined up from the beginning:
1. You could kill in one hit, but it would take a lot of time to get proficient enough with your combos to do it consistently
2. You could work on your fundamentals with the help of a friend, but you would have less time to work on your one-hit-kill combos

The italics tell the story. It takes a reasonably skilled human opponent to practice mix-ups, mind-games and other fundamentals. Even Viscant noted in his articles that as a reset-based player he needed to be able to work on his stuff with human opponents online. If you're a SG player it's hard to get any human opponent at all sometimes. Your time is much better served working on your one-shot kill, because you could consistently work on it by yourself. If you ever managed to find a live opponent, maybe your fundamentals are terrible but if all you need is one hit to win that can be enough.

TLDR:
It's tough to practice fundamentals by yourself so many players instead played SG as a rhythm game.
 
Mike_Z said:
Oh hey, it's Pali's complaint about the new version. I was waiting for this, since there's been a Pali complaint about every version so far.

If the meta is still people mashing supers, and it's working, then that's the top strategy available because this is as good as people will ever get. There is no way to improve from here, and the game provides zero tools for the other player to deal with that mashing and somehow bait or punish the super. It certainly is not a first-order optimal strategy, no sir.

I always complain though, and "good" players have been mashing supers since vanilla except back then if i blocked it i got a full kill on a character. Which would then SCARE the opponent to not be a masher because of the high consequence for doing so.
 
@Pali
Getting a full combo punish now is the equivalent "scare" because that's all they get on you for landing a super.
As with anything predictable, if you know they're doing it, destroy them for it. What else needs to be said?
 
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Thursday night, I played against @ElkyDori who was close to death after I combo'd him at one point. I go for the tech chase and down-back. What did he do? Wakeup Lv3. I blocked, punished, and smacked him w/ my own Lv3, winning the match.

Mashing Super is a thing; so is baiting/countering it.
 
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Luweewu said:
Japan is already ahead of us in pro anti-mashing technology. Step it up Parasoul players.
Link because timestamps don't work embedded.
This actually only works on moves without grab-invincible startup (Painwheels level 3 only has one frame of this)
It works well on peacock and painwheel for example, but not so much against filia or fortune
 
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Adding a bigger vulnerability window after the input and before the super flash might discourage mashing in certain cases.
 
Erreip199 said:
Adding a bigger vulnerability window after the input and before the super flash might discourage mashing in certain cases.

Or, you can burst-bait in a way that's not completely telegraphed (e.g. moving a distance from the opponent, with a full undizzy bar). There are already methods of discouraging mashing, people just like to bitch.
 
I feel the problem most of the player base has againts super mashing, isnt so much its counterplay but in how it negates one of the finer aspects of the game itself, Mind Games.

When a player mashes out a super, he's pretty much saying "i dont want to pay atention to/ think about your combo to see if you drop it/ atempt a reset" and that can result as frustrating to most players seeing how predominant this FOO Strategy can be, it can be done at any level of play and the reward for doing it outputs the risks for the most part.
 
IsaVulpes said:
This is not telegraphed at all and totally going to work twice
The point is that it deters mashing, not that it counters it every time. If you watch the full set you'll see he does it a lot even if he doesn't know whether or not his opponent will mash super.
 
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DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
The point is that it deters mashing, not that it counters it every time. If you watch the full set you'll see he does it a lot even if he doesn't know whether or not his opponent will mash super.
To prevent mashing, you have to setup a structure that makes mashing a non-option. Like in Smash, from what little I see, when someone is over the cliff the other player seems to stand by or throw turnips or shoot lazers or something. It creates a situation in which the opposing player cannot easily (if at all) regain their footing on the field. If you were just like "I hit him with it once, it won't work again" then stop doing it, it allows them the chance to do it again.
 
Erreip199 said:
I feel the problem most of the player base has againts super mashing, isnt so much its counterplay but in how it negates one of the finer aspects of the game itself, Mind Games.

When a player mashes out a super, he's pretty much saying "i dont want to pay atention to/ think about your combo to see if you drop it/ atempt a reset" and that can result as frustrating to most players seeing how predominant this FOO Strategy can be, it can be done at any level of play and the reward for doing it outputs the risks for the most part.

Except that burst baiting is another mind game which results in a counter hit combo on success or no damage on failure, so mashing doesn't really do this? Is the problem that players don't want to incorporate burst baits into their game, then complain that they can't reset or mix-up their offense because mashing is "so good"? Then there is the ability to reset the opponent in ways where they can't mash or have a limited selection of options to choose from (resetting Fortune in the air gives her access to air super as a reversal only, etc).

At this point, it just feels like complaining for the sake of complaining, and not because there's a problem.
 
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You can spend 3 hours in training mode (an hour for every char.) and have a combo, a corner combo, and a burst bait.

You might not be able to do them all the time because they're still fresh to your hands and mind, but you'll know they exist.
 
View619 said:
Except that burst baiting is another mind game which results in a counter hit combo on success or no damage on failure, so mashing doesn't really do this? Is the problem that players don't want to incorporate burst baits into their game, then complain that they can't reset or mix-up their offense because mashing is "so good"? Then there is the ability to reset the opponent in ways where they can't mash or have a limited selection of options to choose from (resetting Fortune in the air gives her access to air super as a reversal only, etc).

At this point, it just feels like complaining for the sake of complaining, and not because there's a problem.


I think the problem here is not taking into consideration what other people want to do. I personally DO NOT want to have to think hella hard about resetting my opponent. I understand that that can lead to balance issues, but at the same time, i also understand that this is a new game and doesnt have to follow the EXTREMELY flowchart formulaic and and archaic block to bait, attack to mixup mindgame that has been around for forever.

Telling someone to use the good 'ol block to bait the unsafe invincible move /have it wiff and then punish just sounds... Old as shit. Have we not come further than this in the fgc's 20 plus years of block to bait tactics?


Anyways, i just wanted to give a different perspective. I understand the block to bait people. And i also understand the not wanting to be beaten by mashing with 0 timing, people. It seems to me though that a hell of a lot of people dont understand just how boring block to bait becomes after soooooo long. Shit sf4 should have killed this as a go to strategy as far as how much it is used.
 
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Dime_x said:
I personally DO NOT want to have to think hella hard about resetting my opponent.
Think about this for a second. What is a reset? How much damage do you get off of it? in the best circumstances, you can get upwards of 10k off of a reset (burst baits mostly). If you are playing someone with more characters than you, a good reset probably means a dead character. Why should you be able to do resets without thinking about anything? You have to think in neutral. You have to think when blocking. You have to think when defending against resets. Why should doing resets be the one time when you don't have to think? Resets should never be braindead dumb.
 
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No dis-respect Dime, but if you don't want to think when you reset your opponent then maybe SG isn't for you? It should be pretty obvious by now that Mike Z wanted defense to have some "reliable" method of reversing specific situations, and remove situations where the defender gets punished even though he guessed correctly. Fighting games have always had complaints about mashing, and the best players have always found the methods for handling it and punishing it. This community needs to move on from the whining and start working, imo.

Otherwise, this would be SDE all over again and wouldn't last. Also, you don't have to block and bait...this game has burst baits. I don't understand why everybody keeps dancing around this like it's a huge taboo. Also, point blocking while assist continues pressure is a thing that even beats mashed supers at times. Mashing "0" frame supers is not as bad as the whining makes it seem.
 
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@View619: burst baits are pretty strong and everyone should learn them, but they're not without their weaknesses, the opponent still has access to alpha countering (if not solo) and a super on the incoming character if they have the additional meter to do so, also the undizzy bar exists which can help in giving the opponent a good guess of when they might be coming.
 
Erreip199 said:
@View619: burst baits are pretty strong and everyone should learn them, but they're not without their weaknesses, the opponent still has access to alpha countering (if not solo) and a super on the incoming character if they have the additional meter to do so, also the undizzy bar exists which can help in giving the opponent a good guess of when they might be coming.

1) I'll welcome alpha counter bursts when people start using them.
2) Undizzy burst baits are obvious burst baits. There's this thing called IPS that will trigger a burst if the rules are broken, and the best way to bait is with IPS, not Undizzy.

I'm stressing burst baits in general because they give you an idea of whether the opponent is mashing without requiring you to wait and see or get hit by a reversal super. Alpha counter burst is a good point, but until that is widely used I wouldn't even include it. There are a number of incoming set-ups that the attacker can use to make super mashing either difficult, incredibly risky or flat-out not worth trying.

Edit:
Just for reference, if SDE had become the final version of SG then I would have dropped it already. There's nothing wrong with disliking the way a game handles a certain mechanic and moving on to something you enjoy more. Hell, I dropped MvC3 because I think it's shit, I didn't bother sticking around complaining about all the mechanics I hate.

If we're going to stick around and it's confirmed that hit-stop supers are here to stay, I think it's time to start dealing with it and developing counters.
 
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burst baits that end with knockdown are pretty dope
 
After playing today and getting hit by reversal supers/ doing reversal supers I realized that it happened because I'm ass and nothing else.




just wanted to share that for no reason
 
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dekillsage said:
After playing today and getting hit by reversal supers/ doing reversal supers I realized that it happened because I'm ass and nothing else.
Wasn't it also because your opponent was ass?
 
Whats with defending scrub tactics? try to mash on mixups in mvc2 or guilty gear and you'll get bodybagged everytime.

Basically what this game is doing is turning it from professional play to dumbed down baby mode play for casuals. Skullgirls is a casual game you can mash someone out with a solo miss fortune atleast once or twice by knowing just basic combos.
 
Dime_x said:
I think the problem here is not taking into consideration what other people want to do. I personally DO NOT want to have to think hella hard about resetting my opponent.

That's why Mvc2 is still my favorite game, if you can't block my shit that's your own fault and you can't do anything about it.
 
Pali said:
Whats with defending scrub tactics? try to mash on mixups in mvc2 or guilty gear and you'll get bodybagged everytime.

Basically what this game is doing is turning it from professional play to dumbed down baby mode play for casuals. Skullgirls is a casual game you can mash someone out with a solo miss fortune atleast once or twice by knowing just basic combos.
Plenty of people mash on shit in gg.

Mash crouch p, mash throw, some characters do wake up super cause fuck you, wake up gold burtst, etc.
 
iLoli said:
Plenty of people mash on shit in gg.

Mash crouch p, mash throw, some characters do wake up super cause fuck you, wake up gold burtst, etc.
The new one? cause i play eddie in accent core and i usually body people who mash.
 
Pali said:
The new one? cause i play eddie in accent core and i usually body people who mash.
Right now.

A better option for some characters than others, but it happens.
 
Mashing will exist in every game as long as that game doesn't have a 100% sure fire oki options and characters have 3/4 frame normals.
 
iLoli said:
Mashing will exist in every game as long as that game doesn't have a 100% sure fire oki options and characters have 3/4 frame normals.
doesn't work in mvc2.

View619 said:
If you're still at the point where you're complaining about "scrub tactics", then you're not very good. It's pretty simple.

Are you a scrub? because all of the past top level tournaments had mashing. EVO2013 EVO2012 and every tournament lately, so either you're retarded or you're retarded.
 
Like people don't mash on assists or one frame crouching shorts or pushblock?
 
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