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On Defensive Assists

IMO its worth experimenting with a universal lockout that applies no matter if the assist gets hit or not. Worked for Marvel 2.
 
Defensive assists are just inherently good in versus fighting games. You could go out of your way to make them not good, but then you would have to nerf them to the point of not being worth using anymore, which is dumb. An option in a game that is slightly too good is always better than having one that is worthless because it got nerfed into the ground.

I'd like to see a change that makes assists locked out longer after being hit, that one makes sense.
 
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Jason said:
IMO its worth experimenting with a universal lockout that applies no matter if the assist gets hit or not. Worked for Marvel 2.
Wha?
MvC2 has no lockout at all. The moment they leave the screen you can call them again.
 
I also wouldn't mind seeing 180 frame lockout. Right now, it feels really easy to run away for two seconds to get my assists back if they get hit. It would upset the armored assist vs. DP assist balance of power slightly (more in favor of DP assist), but it's certainly better than what's in beta now.

Another option is just to slightly extend the length of the post-assist taunt animations (which I think would likely be a better option than increased lockout).
 
Mike_Z said:
Wha?
MvC2 has no lockout at all. The moment they leave the screen you can call them again.

Wow really? Well I feel stupid. I guess it has been 8 years since I played the game I should probably avoid talking like I know anything about it.
 
Also to look at the other side of a longer lockout.

It will disproportionately help solo (which I think most of us agree is probably not an issue), but it will also disproportionately harm duo (maybe insignificantly, but maybe not) who have no other assist nor solo ratios to fall back on.

Edit: I was wrong, see below.
 
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Spencer said:
It will disproportionately help solo (which I think most of us agree is probably not an issue), but it will also disproportionately harm duo (maybe insignificantly, but maybe not) who have no other assist nor solo ratios to fall back on.
When one assist is locked out in a trio, both assists are (and so are raw tags). There's no difference between Solo and Duo in this regard.

This is a perfect example of why people who don't play teams shouldn't claim to know how they work.
 
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Cynical said:
Another option is just to slightly extend the length of the post-assist taunt animations (which I think would likely be a better option than increased lockout).
I don't think I will be doing this. I had to shorten Double's by about 20f before because she stayed in and was a physical barrier that you couldn't run past to advance if you wanted to do something other than hit her. Remember, changing a thing to solve one problem does not only affect that one problem.
 
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Im against more lockout. In fact im still against lockout in general. The reason why is because lockout is anti fun and anti buttons (which is anti fun).

BUT i do see the need to curb assist spam or reduce invincible assists reward on hit. So... My solutions would go like this:


Instead of more lockout, which is dumb and well tbqh, redundant (hey i jabbed him and he's locked out) i would rather more scaling on dp assist confirms and/or more damage done to assists for being hit. This accomplishes the same thing that lockout does but it doesnt do it in a redundant (less buttons) way and it doesnt allow for stupidity such as hey i jabbed him and locked him out, but instead REWARDS people for actually trying to do a hard punish against an assist. The assist takes massive damage for being punished.


Also, i think the damage modifier should only come in, in the assists recovery. That way calling an assist and getting it stuffed by something random doesnt get anything more than the regular assist damage modifier for being hit. But if the assist recovers and then gets hit (like by a counter call, or a point blocking the assist and then punishing it) then the assist takes massive damage.... Something like 150-200%




THAT will keep stupid sloppy assist calls in check without the redundancy of lockout.
 
alexpi said:
can we try that?
It use to be like this.

Mike already experimented with a damage multiplier higher than what it currently is.

I'm against whatever makes offense stronger since that's the last thing that needs to be improved.
 
I think the lockout is long enough as it is since it's already assist recovery time + the time it takes them to jump back off-screen + the actual lockout period, but I guess it being longer wouldn't be too bad. Sucks for you if your assist gets clobbered by Brass Knuckles, though.
 
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Currently, lockout for hitting an assist is 60f btw.
Lockout for snapping or hitting the assist with a snap (?) is 300f (5 real time seconds).
Lockout prevents assist calls and tagging.

@Mike_Z
 
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The thing about increasing the vulnerability on startup for assists is that there will be that magic point where I can land a j.HK on block with PW and never get tagged by Updo. Glorious. Let's give them 10 frames of vuln so I can do it with j.MP despite forever-and-a-day hitstop.

I don't really mind Defensive assists at all as they are, but I don't really use LK.Bomber that much on defensive. I really should be calling it with PBGC Armor as a catchall. I'm more scared of Peacock + Extra Zoning Assists, but that could be a matchup thing.
 
I... was fine with the way it was before. I usually get hit by updo when I'm going in way too hard, and like mike said dp assist dominate corners fundamentally. I think having an offensive dp assist is an advantage but I can work around it, revert pls.
 
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Mr. X said:
Currently, lockout for hitting an assist is 60f btw.
Lockout for snapping or hitting the assist with a snap (?) is 300f (5 real time seconds).
Lockout prevents assist calls and tagging.

@Mike_Z

Ah, I thought I remember reading something about it being extended to 120 frames? Was that a beta experiment or has my halcyon youth finally caught up to me?
 
Mr. X said:
Currently, lockout for hitting an assist is 60f btw.
Lockout for snapping or hitting the assist with a snap (?) is 300f (5 real time seconds).
Lockout prevents assist calls and tagging.

@Mike_Z
Lockout for hitting an assist is 120f/2 seconds, doesn't matter if it is a snapback (longer lockout for snapping them was an experiment once, though, and I'd be okay bringing it back).
Lockout for snapping the point is 300f/5 seconds.
Lockout prevents ALL assist calls, ALL tagging and alpha counters, and disallows DHCs to that character specifically (so worse for duos than trios).
 
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I'm all for increasing lockout rather than some of the nonsense that has been implemented thus far.
 
Mike_Z said:
Lockout for hitting an assist is 120f/2 seconds, doesn't matter if it is a snapback (longer lockout for snapping them was an experiment once, though, and I'd be okay bringing it back).
Please bring it back. I thought that was how it worked until now.

Oh and, revert pls
 
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Mike_Z said:
Lockout for hitting an assist is 120f/2 seconds, doesn't matter if it is a snapback (longer lockout for snapping them was an experiment once, though, and I'd be okay bringing it back).
Lockout for snapping the point is 300f/5 seconds.
Lockout prevents ALL assist calls, ALL tagging and alpha counters, and disallows DHCs to that character specifically (so worse for duos than trios).

Does that mean that the Encore patch notes that were posted are wrong since they list 60f of assist lockout? Or has it changed since those were posted?

  • Outtakes lock Ensembles and tagging for 300f.

  • If an Ensemble is hit, after leaving the screen Ensembles and tagging are locked for 60f.
 
Jason said:
Does that mean that the Encore patch notes that were posted are wrong since they list 60f of assist lockout? Or has it changed since those were posted?
Oh, yeah it does. Script's been 120f since forever.

I...I MAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY have broken the snapped-out-assist thing when I fixed all the midscreen doublesnaps so that might have been how it worked before I did that. Mmph.

[edit]
Yeah I did. I can easily do "if you snap them to offscreen they're locked for 300f, but if you snap them and they don't leave it's the normal lockout" which kinda works since if they don't leave you had a chance to hit them again....?
@Duckator
 
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Mike_Z said:
Chicken blocking one (they don't cause preblock remember) removes the blockstun...

That sounds like a really bad idea. You'll get hit if you're in prejump won't you?

I agree with the general point that the anti-assist game is underdeveloped though. Especially when you're (supposedly) able to catch any assist with meaties, and uncombo juggles work outside double snaps.
 
1. Hornet Bombers are useless without Invincibility? A lot of other lockdown assists don't have invincibility. Hornet Bomber especially the HK version, covers a ton of space..both vertically and horizontally as well as puts the opponent in block stun forever. Has a ton of priority too.

2. What about reducing the blockstun of DP assists just enough that they can't be punished on block, however reduced enough to prevent the opponent from jumping around and attempting mix ups on block? It is a defensive assist, you've halted the opponent's offense even if they block it. If they don't block, you get a massive combo and they are on the defense. That is more than enough, also makes it less effective to spam in the corner. It will blow up buttons but not allow you to capitilize when opponent blocks.

3. For all assists I think more lockout is only a good thing. Dumb assist calls should have severe consequences, and having your ill called assist knocked out should leave you at a terrible disadvantage for a substantial period of time.
 
Age said:
That sounds like a really bad idea. You'll get hit if you're in prejump won't you?
Yes, but if you are doing it intentionally (especially with a fwd jump) it's a good idea.

blufang said:
1. Hornet Bombers are useless without Invincibility? A lot of other lockdown assists don't have invincibility. Hornet Bomber especially the HK version, covers a ton of space..both vertically and horizontally as well as puts the opponent in block stun forever. Has a ton of priority too.
HK Bomber doesn't have invincibility anyway, though, that's not the issue.

blufang said:
2. What about reducing the blockstun of DP assists just enough that they can't be punished on block, however reduced enough to prevent the opponent from jumping around and attempting mix ups on block?
Buh? You can punish pretty much any assist on block, they stand around and taunt...
 
IsaVulpes said:
The problem is, when I'm stuck in the corner and the opponents Val is rolling me with IAD j.HP / c.LK / Throw / Pushblock baits / etc while covering the holes in her offence with an invincible Hitbox, there's no "Well just bait it lel", "L2Countercall noop", whatever.

The very POINT of the changes is that current Butt is dumb beyond belief and DP assists are too good.
Of course a nerf to them only affects them. I don't really get the reasoning behind "Updo is too good, so lets globally nerf stuff and make Peacock c.HP assist worse".

If Mike is going to tell me that cLK or trijump RH to hit an assist and lock them out is a reasonable expectation because Fanatiq set the precedent in MvC2, you better fucking believe i'm going to tell you to avoid getting put in the corner during neutral, or once you're in there to pushblock intelligently, reversal, hitstop, counter-call, pbgc or learn the advantage/disadvantage of the moves keeping you locked down and fight your way out.

Yeah, it's fucking hard and yeah I still go 1-10 with Sev or 1-30 with Duck online with most of my matches spent in the corner dying to precisely the sort of crafted offense you're so unhappy with. I'll likely be spending something on the order of 600 dollars just to go to vegas and die to it there too, if I even make it out of pools. But if I put in work and deal with it, there's hope to beat it. And if I do, at that point I deserve my wins.

As for specifically nerfing those assists I'd say your problem isn't DP/Butt covering holes in offensive pressure, it's assists covering holes. Updo/Butt are not specifically holding you back here. I guarantee you duck, sev, ken, winnie and other guys using butt/updo/pillar would find ways to augment their offense with other specials or even normal assists if they had to and effectively achieve the same thing. It's why they're good, not because they're shameless and just adopted butt/updo in a sea of stubborn players. They picked the best tools for the job and they'd do it again under any other set of circumstances you introduce.

If this goes through, all that happens is LNL, brass, beat extend, and fiber become the new butts/updos. 6 months down the line do we nerf those too? 6 months after that, do we nerf the assists with fast startup and/or positive frame advantage on block when those become the next best thing?

I'm not pissed about losing these offensive tools/things because honestly I'm not good enough at skullgirls to use them right, even after trying Duck's team and Negus' team in earnest with those specific goals in mind. My problem is that the people that are good enough will lose them after putting in all the work to make these tactics what they are. I would lose all my work and time spent coming up with my own counter tactics too (specifically PBGC options) and that's just as aggravating to me.
 
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I might be slightly bias since this doesn't really negatively effect me, but I'm actually ok with these changes for one main reason; this might encourage more team variety.

Want an invincible reversal with an easy follow up? Grab beat extend. Want a lockdown assist with some invincibility but doesn't have as nuts of a hitbox as bomber? Try fukua's hk drill. Want your dhc into catheads? Run double.

This gives people a reason to not just throw double at the end of every team, while still not being total shit if you choose to.
 
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Mike_Z said:
HK Bomber doesn't have invincibility anyway, though, that's not the issue.

True, it doesn't and it functions just fine. An amazing assist still. Though Lk and MK versions would be completely inferior to HK bomber without invincibility, I don't think that is too big a deal.

Mike_Z said:
Buh? You can punish pretty much any assist on block, they stand around and taunt...

Yeah but since the opponent can freely move even as the assist is being blocked so they'll be using that DP blockstun to continue pressure or start pressure usually. This would probably look stupid, but what if on DP defensive assists, characters couldn't move if the assist was blocked? They could only block...once opponent comes out of blockstun, they would come out of blockstun as well. So on defense

Assist hits-Free combo, opponent now on defense
Assist blocked-Situation is reset to neutral.
Assist baited and dodged-Situation still advantaged to attacker, possibly incur damage

On offense

The invincible DP could be used to blow up mashing buttons, you could bait them into this. However you couldn't use it as a lockdown assist, since you can't move either while opponent is in blockstun.
 
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blufang said:
True, it doesn't and it functions just fine. An amazing assist still. Though Lk and MK versions would be completely inferior to HK bomber without invincibility, I don't think that is too big a deal.



Yeah but since the opponent can freely move even as the assist is being blocked so they'll be using that blockstun to continue pressure or start pressure.

I just can't see a world in which you get to punish an assist even if you had blockstun of 0. Hitting an assist is risky business since the point is near by. It is one of the reason I think the current lockout is unsatisfying. The risk you put into hitting the assist in many cases doesn't equal what you get out of it.
 
How are MK and HK Hornet bomber considered lockdown assist? The second hit whiffs on the entire cast crouching...
And even if you block standing, it makes you travel. I clearly don't see it as a true lockdown assist like Cerecopter.

If you want to reduce reckless assist calls, why not make assist take a % of permanent damages if they get hit (like for the main character. Part permanent, and part recoverable)?
 
You two remember how sad everyone got when fortune headless was nerfed? Half of that was because they would have to protect the head. You act like the opponent is at an advantage when he is forced to protect his assist while it taunts. That's just not true. Both players interact with all the assists, the person who deals with them the best will win neutral.
 
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Camail said:
You two remember how sad everyone got when fortune headless was nerfed? Half of that was because they would have to protect the head. You act like the opponent is at an advantage when he is forced to protect his assist while it taunts. That's just not true. Both players interact with all the assists, the person who deals with them the best will win neutral.

You're right in part, but don't understate it. Mike said above that he had to shorten how much time Double stayed out because she acted as a wall. Also, you get put into hit stun when you hit an assist while their point doesn't.

It also isn't a direct analogy. MF's head stayed out permanently and could be anywhere (including quite far from her body). An assist pops up right on top of your point in most cases and sticks around for a few seconds (a large portion of which has hit boxes).

I'm not saying this should be changed, is OP, or anything, but to act like there isn't some risk (and in some cases quite a large risk) in hitting an assist, that's crazy.
 
Yes and her head can't be combo'd while an assist can be, and while your are hitting the assist you can counter call your own dp or even do a super as they try and punish you as you pretend to over extend the assist punish or even react to agression by ending the punishing chain in a jump cancelled launcher to instantly make yourself safe, both people have answers and it's your job to pick the right one when the time comes. My mention of fortune was to highlight relevant similarities, which you admit exist, and I have presented an additional problem for assists that the head doesn't have. However there doesn't need to be a perfect analogy to prove my point.

Like I said, both players are equally involved wih protecting and attacking assists, no one is saying there is 0 risk, you can overextend and get caught. Also assists may appear where you were when you called them but, like hornet bomber on whiff, can be quite far away. There is absolutely no hint of uderstatement in tone or content of either of my posts.
 
Not a big fan of the updo/napalm changes after testing them out (against Parasoul/Filia players). Getting away with a lot of dumb stuff since the damage I take after eating an assist DP isn't isn't there anymore/is significantly reduced. It feels like I was given a deck full of get-out-of-jail-free cards compared to playing retail
 
RexLeRouge said:
How are MK and HK Hornet bomber considered lockdown assist? The second hit whiffs on the entire cast crouching...
And even if you block standing, it makes you travel. I clearly don't see it as a true lockdown assist like Cerecopter.

Cerecopter doesn't move anywhere, whereas HK bomber covers almost the entire screen horizontally. Also with Val jumping constantly people people aren't going to be crouching all the time, easy to call in bomber smartly when they are stand blocking and put them in blockstun. Also the massive pushback is a benefit, pushes character towards the corner and point character has no problem catching up and continuing offense.
 
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