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On Defensive Assists

RexLeRouge said:
How are MK and HK Hornet bomber considered lockdown assist? The second hit whiffs on the entire cast crouching...
And even if you block standing, it makes you travel. I clearly don't see it as a true lockdown assist like Cerecopter.

If you want to reduce reckless assist calls, why not make assist take a % of permanent damages if they get hit (like for the main character. Part permanent, and part recoverable)?

Crouching to avoid hornet bomber is dangerous business. Try doing that while Filia/Valentine/Fortune are waiting to overhead you. The pushback from blocking the assist isn't necessarily a bad thing. The characters that make use of it (like the 3 mentioned above) are more than fast enough to close the distance, which means they are closer to pinning you to the corner. The duration of the assist will typically allow for 2 or so mixups.

EDIT: blufang pretty much covered it lol
 
Hornet Bomber can also help you, if you are airborne you can pushblock to remain safe for a long time.
And if you block it crouching and absolute guard you don't have to worry about getting overhead'd.
 
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Mike_Z said:
Hornet Bomber can also help you, if you are airborne you can pushblock to remain safe for a long time.
And if you block it crouching and absolute guard you don't have to worry about getting overhead'd.
While the air pushblock thing is true, it's really only very helpful against a Peacock to avoid being pushed back. Doing the pushblock sets you up for some tricky crossunder/throw mixups right after, unless you are mashing a super, which I guess most people tend to do more often then not. The absolute guard thing pretty much applies to any lockdown assist and, correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't last the entire pushblock duration?
 
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Was it ever really discussed whether it matters that some assists are good at all 3 different things?

the DP style assist can fill 3 rolls for reasons we don't need to go into at this point, but are they better at filling these other rolls than the more specialized assists? I would say no. So DP assists then represent a choice, do I specialize or generalize? Whats better in Skullgirls?

Usually in Fighting games more options are the way to go, but I think in Skullgirls specifically because of the freedom of assists and what kind of setups they can achieve, having both (specialized and multi-use) is probably the way to go, in my mind.

Another point is that we see so many defensive assists because they are the "obvious" path of least resistance, whether they are the best play is in my mind largely unknown. Sure Duckator uses them and is the "King" as it were but the game is still in flux and community is still really young (and small) maybe things will change?
 
I'm reopening the thread. Don't click the thread if you don't like it or complain to an @[USERGROUP=3]Administrator[/USERGROUP] about me. Stop trying to get in zingers, the same people that said discussion is worthless here are the same ones making it worthless or instigating shit posting.

To get this back on topic:

The way Vulpes grouped/classified assists isn't the only way to look at them and is missing, IMO, a very important piece on when or where you'd use it. His groupings of neutral and lockdown assist are called at much safer times like further away or when you're at advantage.

Defensive assist can be used at advantage as well, but they are used mostly for unsafe times. This makes them much more susceptible to getting hit for big damage or double snap into death. I don't see a problem with them also being good for frame traps or at advantage. I don't see an issue on the defensive reward, bad offensive judgements getting punished is okay especially with a bad defensive judgement being as risky as it currently is.
 
fullmetalross said:
Was it ever really discussed whether it matters that some assists are good at all 3 different things?

the DP style assist can fill 3 rolls for reasons we don't need to go into at this point, but are they better at filling these other rolls than the more specialized assists? I would say no. So DP assists then represent a choice, do I specialize or generalize? Whats better in Skullgirls?

Usually in Fighting games more options are the way to go, but I think in Skullgirls specifically because of the freedom of assists and what kind of setups they can achieve, having both (specialized and multi-use) is probably the way to go, in my mind.

Another point is that we see so many defensive assists because they are the "obvious" path of least resistance, whether they are the best play is in my mind largely unknown. Sure Duckator uses them and is the "King" as it were but the game is still in flux and community is still really young (and small) maybe things will change?


As far as will things change,.. Like they say on that now defunct show, fringe... Anythings possible.

The reason why dp assist are so good in skullgirls is many reasons, but i think some of the biggest reasons is for things that people either take for granted or forget:

Sg is an attack heavy game.... Very attack heavy. So moves that BEAT ATTACKS... are probably going to be very good. Let's say that sg instead of being attack heavy, was super duper fireball heavy.... Well then short range assists that beat attacks... Arent going to be so great. Instead, what would be very useful would be assist that reflect fireballs, assist thats are fireballs themselves, and assist that straight up beat fireballs... Like vals bike, but dont go away on hit or something...

The point being not that dp assists are super powerful just because... But that dp assists are good because of the type of game that most skullgirls players want to play... "In your face mixup pressure, gameplay". And dp assists counter that type of play, cold. And in the instance of this game, give really good dividends as well. The bad part being that because sg is in many parts a game of momentum, one confirmed dp assist can snowball into a dead character or 2 from vortex hell, even with undizzy.


There are many many solutions to this, but unfortunately most or all are ignored by the designers as "to obvious" or some such.


Solutions that when balanced by various numbers could be good:

Damage scaling
Meter scaling
Undizzy scaling (getting hit by any assist with attack invulnerable frames or armor frames) automatically grants an amount of undizzy (like say 20 undizzy for hitting with an invulnerable assist, or all the way up to full undizzy for converting from an invincible assist


-edit... I wrote this before the lock and saved it for posting in a different thread or... Something. But since its reopened....
 
@Dime_x

I agree with you, and that element of DP assists is exactly what I'd like to keep. They should be strong as hell on defense.

Were I to criticize them, my complaint is that they also provide a pretty damn solid amount of offensive assist themselves.

While rushing down, they generally provide a large confirmable hitbox which is mostly invulnerable. Then there is their obvious corner pressure which can be (and is) used to pressure as well as defend.

The question is can you separate the defensive bit from the offensive bit (or should we)? In any case, DP assists add to rushdown nature of SG even while protecting from it.

I'll have to admit to bias as well. DP assists are probably the hardest thing for a solo player (or maybe just me?) to deal with, and any nerf to them is a buff to solo play. But, I am legitimately trying to look at it objectively (and I'm learning a team... but I'll likely mostly stay solo by preference).
 
After thinking it over for a while, I have two things to take away from this thread.

#1 - Even though I don't like the idea of nerfing Pillar and Updo, I do think that there is a place in SG for a reversal assist that is difficult or impossible to convert off of in most situations due to crazy knockback. I like it as a concept, different from the other DP assists. Something to think about for Eliza/Wulf/Robo perhaps? Just a thought.

#2 - Next chance I get, I'm making up some purposeful assist-trap blockstrings and practicing them in training mode. Maybe making a Youtube video about it. Its something that is very much worth exploring. Just like with people crouching and mashing on OS tech in SF4, 2 frames of vulnerable startup may not be all that long in the neutral game but in terms of traps its not any tighter than the stuff people do for frame traps in SF4 to beat crouch techs. You just need the right timing and some practice.
 
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I'd argue that a DP assist's key point in skullgirls is how they can completely turn around a situation. You go from a defensive position to a completely advantages position in the form of a combo if it connects. Probably one of the reasons why Updo and Pillar are used much more than something like Fiber Uppercut is for this reason alone. Imagine how many more people would be playing Fortune if Fiber Upper caused a knockdown like Updo.

In the beta, they keep their utility in the form of a reversal, but you don't get as free of a combo off them all the time like you normally would.
 
Jason said:
After thinking it over for a while, I have two things to take away from this thread.

#1 - Even though I don't like the idea of nerfing Pillar and Updo, I do think that there is a place in SG for a reversal assist that is difficult or impossible to convert off of in most situations due to crazy knockback. I like it as a concept, different from the other DP assists. Something to think about for Eliza/Wulf/Robo perhaps? Just a thought.
Fortune already has this, more or less (yes, I know, PW can convert off of it, but not anyone else in practice).
 
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Eh, PW isn't the only one, it's just waaaaaaaaay easier to do it from updo/pillar.
 
One good DP can lead to a dead character or 2, one bad DP can lead to a dead character or 2.

Why should reward for good defense be lowered from what it is now?
 
Looks like this thread will be relevant for a while longer (at least as much as it ever was)

Beta Experiments
- Knockback on assist Updo/Pillar and invin on assist Bomber back to normal.
- Blockstun on Updo/Pillar still -4f. I didn't mind this.
- Assists will not regenerate health while locked out, and they will count down the 2 seconds before they start regenerating health AFTER the lockout is over.
- Assist lockout time when regularly hit 120f->180f (2sec->3sec). Snapbacked assists are locked out for 300f (5sec) per the bugfix at the top there.

Not sure if I like the assist healing nerf but I like what it is trying to do.
 
Getting caught up on this thread, y'all posted hella words while I was at NCR

My general thoughts on the matter are that DP assists are pretty good and I guess I'm okay with that, despite being one of the people who doesn't use them? I guess my only real problem is I'd like for there to be more risk associated with calling assists; these rewards are fine as long as the risk is there. That seems to be what these latest beta changes are trying to do anyways so whatever.
dekillsage said:
Everyone who used to play double still plays double
Nope
Spencer said:
I hardly think anyone would consider Zid a scrub.
Lots of people say that, mostly in the Skullgirls IRC. They're all retarded tho, Zid's fuckin godlike
 
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