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Painwheel general discussion AKA GET OUT OF MY THREAD

it can be good to use in your block strings to catch people off guard, or baiting pushblocks by charging it
 
ButterKnife said:
Anyone have any luck with c.HK?

I've been trying to work it in lately since it's her longest range HG attack and nobody ever expects it. I've been cancelling into MK Buer (or LK Buer is close enough) or Death Crawl, but I'm wondering if anyone else has messed around with it and have better ideas.

As a sweep it resets undizzy I believe, so you can certainly work it in a combo in lieu of a burst bait or reset.

I like it as a hatred guard option when your back is in a corner and you're just hoping to get out. Fun fact, when used as hatred guard, I'm pretty sure you can full combo out of it. Generally though, I'd prefer other hg moves for that, but it does work nicely.
 
I just for the first time realized I could cancel out of more than just command grabs with her flight.

indescribable joy *squeees*
 
I play solo Painwheel. It's very much a game of the mind.
I rely entirely on tricking my opponent. I really enjoy playing PW.

Pros of playing Painwheel:
Her combos are simple, and her playstyle is easy to understand.
She has projectiles.
She can fly.
Even when at a disadvantage, she can almost win.
She's pretty neutral, but slightly more offensive than defensive.
She handles like a Ford F250.
She's better than Double.

The cons:
All of her specials are terrible.
Her level 3 is basically DC but worse. "But that wall-bounce though!"
She's slow.
Her moves don't have priority.
Her ranged attacks are relatively pointless.
Hatred Guard rarely works.
She can't block during flight.
Her ground dash is slow.
Her pokes are slow.
Flight is slow.
All of her noteworthy attacks are close-range, and slow.
Her grab is laughable without hatred install. But it looks cool in air.
She's easily punished, but can't punish to save her life.
She's slow.
Some of her moves miss Squigly if Squigly simply crouches.
She can only match up with 2 characters on the list without being at a severe disadvantage.
Her level 3 is treated as one hit when blocked, while DC completes all of its hits. Good idea.
Her specials can be smacked away like a chihuahua on a soccer field, so only usable within combos.
Can fly but can't air-dash because logic.
(Meanwhile Filia uses her hidden electromagnetic field generator to airdash no problem.)
Hatred install costs two meter, worth 1 at best.
Even if a move makes physical contact, it doesn't work.
(i.e. hitting Parasoul's feet when she uses napalm pillar.)
100% focus and predictions necessary to succeed.
(Meanwhile you can literally roll your head across the keyboard and do a sick combo with Double.)
 
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^^ I liked because cons, but I think you forgot to
Mention how slow she is...




:)
 
She's better than Double? As in 'cooler', or as in better?

StripeyBoosh said:
The cons:
All of her specials are terrible.
Her level 3 is basically DC but worse. "But that wall-bounce though!"
Her moves don't have priority.
Her ranged attacks are relatively pointless.
Hatred Guard rarely works.
She can't block during flight.
All of her noteworthy attacks are close-range, and slow.
Her grab is laughable without hatred install. But it looks cool in air.
She can only match up with 2 characters on the list without being at a severe disadvantage.
Her specials can be smacked away like a chihuahua on a soccer field, so only usable within combos.
Hatred install costs two meter, worth 1 at best.
Even if a move makes physical contact, it doesn't work.
(i.e. hitting Parasoul's feet when she uses napalm pillar.)
100% focus and predictions necessary to succeed.
These are all wrong

I especially love "Wow I'm punching Parasoul while she does a DP, and my move doesn't connect?? Painwheel sucks"
 
They aren't all wrong.

She is super fucking slow, her moves don't have priority, she is easily punished and has a hard time punishing (because she is super fucking slow), and at present, you can't block in flight.

I think she's in a pretty bad way with some of the worst MU in the game (Parasoul I'd guess is closer to a 3-7). On virtually any tier list I've seen using any metric you want, she is placed low.

Finally, what is a claim without a predictive portion, so to call my shot you'll see at most one Painwheel in the top 8 at EVO. Given that you'll likely have 24 characters in the top 8, that's at least partially telling.
 
Spencer said:
They aren't all wrong.

She is super fucking slow
Did you actually look at the spoiler? I took out the ones which aren't

her moves don't have priority
I'm not even gonna bother

Finally, what is a claim without a predictive portion, so to call my shot you'll see at most one Painwheel in the top 8 at EVO. Given that you'll likely have 24 characters in the top 8, that's at least partially telling.
K, let's make an SDE tierlist based on EVO 2013 Top8:
S: Filia
S-: Double
A: Parasoul, Peacock, Fortune, Bella
B: Valentine
C: Painwheel

Very telling
 
IsaVulpes said:
Did you actually look at the spoiler? I took out the ones which aren't


I'm not even gonna bother


K, let's make an SDE tierlist based on EVO 2013 Top8:
S: Filia
S-: Double
A: Parasoul, Peacock, Fortune, Bella
B: Valentine
C: Painwheel

Very telling

1) No I didn't. I assumed you just quoted. My fault.

2) Don't bother then. She has good (great even) hit boxes on a handful of moves (notably her air moves). That price is paid in some of the slowest start up frames of any move set. She has no reliable reversal. She has a lot of potential damage (being nerfed). She has some decent shenanigans (though I think most of the cast does at this point), and I don't think she excels in really any area... or in other words, there's another cast member that can do what PW does, but better.

3) First of all, it is telling. Characters with an invuln assist are used... period. Secondly, add that list to EVO 2014 and I'm guessing you'll still find PW on the least played list. Thirdly, add those two lists to who's currently playing what and you'll still likely find her on the bottom of said list (accounting for Big Bands newness... of course). Factor those lists into the tier lists generated by this community (there's a whole thread of them) in which PW consistently ranks lowly, and I think we can all agree that PW is one of, if not the, weakest member of the cast. By what metric do you want to gauge strength? Unless that metric is "looking the most bad ass", I'm sure PW is going to be toward the bottom.
 
Take it easy folks. It was meant as a joke.
I wouldn't play PW if I thought she was a bad character. :)
 
StripeyBoosh said:
Take it easy folks. It was meant as a joke.
I wouldn't play PW if I thought she was a bad character. :)

I play her exclusively, and I don't think she's a great character.

She's got strengths that eek out similar strengths on other characters, and weaknesses you could "land a jumbo fucking jet in".
 
IsaVulpes said:
Great, you disprove your own points, saving me the work
The hitboxes being decent doesn't mean in an exchange they will come out on top.
In fact most of her moves in air are destroyed in exchanges. This usually is due to their strange startup, though.
That's why people like charging j.HP to block the trade instead of trying to beat others to the punch.

Spencer said:
I play her exclusively, and I don't think she's a great character.

She's got strengths that eek out similar strengths on other characters, and weaknesses you could "land a jumbo fucking jet in".
Her strength is simply that if she does catch you slippin, she'll make you pay for it.
She may be slow, but if she gets her hands on you, say goodbye to 7K health. Granted she'll probably get punished out of combo/reset.
But still. She spits game.
 
StripeyBoosh said:
The cons:
All of her specials are terrible.
Her level 3 is basically DC but worse. "But that wall-bounce though!"
She's slow.
Her moves don't have priority.
Her ranged attacks are relatively pointless.
Hatred Guard rarely works.
She can't block during flight.
Her ground dash is slow.
Her pokes are slow.
Flight is slow.
All of her noteworthy attacks are close-range, and slow.
Her grab is laughable without hatred install. But it looks cool in air.
She's easily punished, but can't punish to save her life.
She's slow.
Some of her moves miss Squigly if Squigly simply crouches.
She can only match up with 2 characters on the list without being at a severe disadvantage.
Her level 3 is treated as one hit when blocked, while DC completes all of its hits. Good idea.
Her specials can be smacked away like a chihuahua on a soccer field, so only usable within combos.
Can fly but can't air-dash because logic.
(Meanwhile Filia uses her hidden electromagnetic field generator to airdash no problem.)
Hatred install costs two meter, worth 1 at best.
Even if a move makes physical contact, it doesn't work.
(i.e. hitting Parasoul's feet when she uses napalm pillar.)
100% focus and predictions necessary to succeed.
(Meanwhile you can literally roll your head across the keyboard and do a sick combo with Double.)
I don't think half of these are actually a problem.
 
IsaVulpes said:
Great, you disprove your own points, saving me the work

A handful of the slowest moves in the game does not good priority make.

If we are comparing active frames of a handful (see also: j.mp) of moves vs the active frames of other characters moves, then yes. But as I understand it (and if I'm wrong then so be it), priority also includes start up frames (and recovery frames?).

So as to not argue the semantics on the word priority what I mean is this... if PW pushes most of her attacks at the same time as anyone else pushes the exact same attack... PW loses.

In any case, I'd ask you again... by what metric is PW strong/top tier/in a good place. What evidence would you take seriously enough to believe a character is weaker than another character. Tourney win rates, tourney representation, pro player representation, general player representation, general player consensus (based on tier lists) are clearly not enough... so what is?

@StripeyBoosh
I don't disagree. And she isn't broken unplayable... just weak (a problem compounded on by some of the worst MU in the game). My problem with that is that first, her damage is being nerfed (which is oft cited as the one big thing that PW has). She does get unfly which is potentially big (but also potentially meh... time will tell), so I'm not bitching too hard yet, plus her corner damage was pretty obscene.

That said, I think there are other characters that will make you pay "slipping up" even more than PW will. A team with rushdown + lock down assist will fuck you up in a corner in a pretty threatening way (more so than a PW will do by herself). Solo Filia has a hard time getting in (like PW), but once in she is horrifying (and all but immune to PB).
 
Spencer said:
In any case, I'd ask you again... by what metric is PW top tier
You're free to point me to the quote of mine where I'm suggesting this
I actually questioned StripeyBooshs opinion of her being better than Double

And she isn't broken unplayable... just weak
I disagree with this *heavily*. No SG character is weak.

Let me turn your player argument around; are Negus and Domo and Noah and Taluda and <insert PW> much better players than everyone else?
If you go roughly even with a 'weak' character against someone who plays a good one, that must mean you're the better player, aight?
 
IsaVulpes said:
You're free to point me to the quote of mine where I'm suggesting this
I actually questioned StripeyBooshs opinion of her being better than Double


I disagree with this *heavily*. No SG character is weak.

Let me turn your player argument around; are Negus and Domo and Noah and Taluda and <insert PW> much better players than everyone else?
If you go roughly even with a 'weak' character against someone who plays a good one, that must mean you're the better player, aight?

Domo is a damn good general player, but who knows. I think it is PW that is holding Noah and Taluda back. I've no clue about Negus.

Of course, the tournament will tell, right? I assume at least a few of them will head to EVO. Will there be a PW in top 8?

And just because there are good players, doesn't mean the character is not generally weak as was evidenced by the Hakan comeback.
 
IsaVulpes said:
Oh, really.. so her priority is FUCKING HILARIOUSLY GREAT, but she's slow. Oh, you said the slow thing 10 times already. So uh??
Still no. Even in the event that an aerial is executed before another character's, PW loses to their attack anyway.
This can be seen against Filia, Parasoul, and Fortune somewhat often. This is not to say that this isn't fair.
Those three rely on their speed and priority to get anywhere. In a way they are just opposite of PW.

The better PW players don't just go charging in.
They try to fake their opponent out before going in to the offense.
PW does not meant to have "hilariously great" priority.
None of her moves offer much when exchanging, which is the whole point of hatred guard.
It's very much a matter of making your opponent think you're going to to do one thing, and then doing something completely different.

So in terms of play, you have to be 1 step ahead of your opponent as PW.
And yes, she's slow. Which is most people's problem with her. But on a serious note that's the only issue with her.
Must be the heavy wheel slowing her down... that somehow is light enough to use for flight.
 
Guys pls.

Everything on that list is wrong. Am I playing the same game? This is Skullgirls, right?

Matchups where I feel Painwheel does well (1v1): Everyone.

Matchups where I feel point Painwheel does well (Multi v Multi): Everyone except Point Peacock. Then it's only okay.

Matchups where Painwheel does well (1 v Multi): Everyone without Peacock on Point or Running 2nd.

If you're complaining about any of these matchups, go spend some time in the hyperbolic time chamber. I implore you. It will be time well spent.
 
Krackatoa said:
Guys pls.

Everything on that list is wrong. Am I playing the same game? This is Skullgirls, right?

Matchups where I feel Painwheel does well (1v1): Everyone.

Matchups where I feel point Painwheel does well (Multi v Multi): Everyone except Point Peacock. Then it's only okay.

Matchups where Painwheel does well (1 v Multi): Everyone without Peacock on Point or Running 2nd.

If you're complaining about any of these matchups, go spend some time in the hyperbolic time chamber. I implore you. It will be time well spent.

Oh bullshit...
Painwheel vs Parasoul is one of the worst matches in the game.
Painwheel vs an invuln assist is brutal too (ultimately it is an MU wherein your opponent has to fuck up... good play just doesn't cut it).
Painwheel with a Parasoul on point is always hard.
Painwheel with a Peacock on point with an assist is awful.
Painwheel on a team is mostly fine (but I argue there are other champs that can do what she can, but better).
 
Play a better Parasoul?

Or do me one better and record a few games of you going against a decent Parasoul. Maybe I'll learn something.

Isa quote a few pages back: "GL making PW-PS and PW-Cock 5-5s without either making the latter two characters garbage or PW completely busted against Fortune/Bella/Stuffs."

A Domo quote about Parasoul help "I'd help you out with the parasoul matchup if i knew how to."

The same thread as the Domo quote, hlvn makes a reference to how difficult it is (though it was potentially just humorous/sarcastic).

I've talked to other Painwheels (some quite good), and Parasoul is almost universally brought up as a problem.

Also, to add some more ammo, Painwheel is the least played character in this community (behind Big Band... who isn't even released). Her tournament showing thus far seems to have been poor as well as her tournament representation.

Here is the popularity poll (you've no doubt seen it) which is not necessarily an indicator of the community at large. I guess what I'm saying is the standard line of reasoning is "no characters are weak" and "Painwheel is fine"... but I just don't think anything but a few anecdotes lend themselves to that view.
 
Spencer said:
What you said
The Parasoul matchup is tough because it's different, but after a few matches you really start to figure out how Parasoul works.
Her different stages, etc. and what to do in each stage. It's a matter of applying what you learn.
Krackatoa said:
go spend some time in the hyperbolic time chamber. I implore you. It will be time well spent.

I'm about to hit up the hyperbolic time-chamber, then.
 
StripeyBoosh said:
The Parasoul matchup is tough because it's different, but after a few matches you really start to figure out how Parasoul works.
Her different stages, etc. and what to do in each stage. It's a matter of applying what you learn.


I'm about to hit up the hyperbolic time-chamber, then.

It isn't that it is different, it is that it takes our advantage and makes it a weakness. As a rule Para air > PW air. There is some success to be had using j.lp > j.lk into a combo, but in order to get to that point you've got to keep the pressure on, which is difficult to do. It is also a Peacock type match in that you'll be eating quite a bit of chip damage before you even get to engage.

I win the MU fairly regularly against people who are less versed in how to deal with Painwheel (obscurity seems to be our largest advantage), but against people who know what PW can do... lord.
 
Krackatoa plays Dagwood pretty regularly. He's no parasoul slouch.

That matchup favors parasoul in a lot of people's opinions (most painwheel players, Skarmand, Girlystyle, Sev, and others) but if you're familiar with it and good enough to play it out player vs. player in earnest instead of character vs. character, maybe things work out.

Matchups based on past matches' numbers aren't the match in your hands.
 
hlvn said:
Matchups based on past matches' numbers aren't the match in your hands.

This was well said.

I'm more of a numbers guy, and I will always end up focusing on trends, odds, percents, etc. But when you are in a game, that is terrific advice.
 
Spencer said:
I think it is PW that is holding Noah and Taluda back.

Really? I'd say it's the total opposite. I feel adding PW to my team has increased my game a TON. I'd rather be playing her than fortune or bella at times.

(the rest of this is just PW general stuff. not directed at anyone)

I feel PW is one of the better characters in the game actually. It's just people are being far too aggressive in the neutral game due to her excellent rushdown potential. Thing is you can't go ham from the get go because you need to be extremely aware of your SPACING.

I can't stress how important I feel it is when playing PW. Especially while flying (which people do far too much of in the neutral game imo). Being aware of just how far your attacks can go as well as how long it takes them to become active is HUGE.. This is because as mentioned a lot of times earlier in the thread, all of her normals are (much?) slower than most. There is no doubting that... but almost all of them also have INSANE hitboxes, lots of active frames, hit multiple times, have armor AND create tons of hitstun making for some of the easiest confirms in the game. Heck, J.MP DOMINATES the air game. I rarely trade against other air normals and practically never lose an A2A exchange as long as I'm properly spaced. Most of PWs normals used pre-emptively at the right distance stuff other characters attacks. Pretty much if you aren't at an advantageous distance don't attack. Create space. Bait assist calls. Wait for the opportunity cause once you get a hit in your opponent is going to have a hard time getting you off as PWs rushdown/mixup can be immensely difficult to deal with and that's not even taking assists into account.

With that said, it took a long time for me to get used to attacking from (what I feel) the proper distances are to get the most of her normals. Now that I have a good grasp on that (I still throw out point blank j.mp every once in a while... for shame), her speed doesn't feel like a detriment. It balances her out. If her normals had any more "priority" she'd be a nightmare to deal with.
 
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Rather than argue with anyone... Which is pointless, though amusing sometimes. I'll just say my piece:

Solo painwheel is ass. All solos are ass. Even fortune and bella.
Having said that. I think that with the right assists every matchup that painwheel comes up against is even with the exception of peacock. The assist needed to make painwheels matchup even is imho napalm pillar. With napalm pillar, painwheel gets the ability to make her opponent respect her aerial space. And once painwheel has aerial respect, she is a different character altogether.


Going deeper into parasoul versus painwheel. It is a slight parasoul advantage. I play both ends of the matchup (assisted) and on either end this is how it feels (well it feels really in parasouls favor when i play the parasoul side, but i bank that more on other things such as the player versus player matchup (which has little to do with ACTUAL matchups) when looking at tool versus tool, painwheel and parasoul matchup really well until you come to neutral, at which point i think parasoul wins decisively. That isnt enough to say she wins the matchup decisively but it gives her credence in my mind.




-EDIT


i wrote that before seeing taludas post. I agree with everything taluda says there with one caveat:

He is talking about fiber upper assisted painwheel, so he is biased... which is near the same as pillar painwheel. Painwheel, now with all of her buffs is a scary character when you throw pillar or updo or fiber behind her (though pillar is still by far the best for her imho) im just saying that this new "good" painwheel IS NOT a bomber user. She is a pillar user. Painwheel with Pillar/vertical AA is shin wheel.
 
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Anyone who says armor is bad doesn't have the reactions or the guts to use it.

And the only thing holding me back is me. I don't lose because PW is bad I lose because I make bad decisions.
 
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Elda Taluda said:
Really? I'd say it's the total opposite. I feel adding PW to my team has increased my game a TON. I'd rather be playing her than fortune or bella at times.

I think given the amount of time you've put in to learn PW resets, spacing, etc. is something that a Filia (for example) gets almost for free... obviously that's an exaggeration.

I think of Val as a perfect example. She does what PW does (strong rush down with good mix up potential), but she does it better and with less effort and less unfavorable match ups and with more mobility and the opportunity to pick when she gets in.

Play as PW, I feel like I'm 90% waiting for my opponent to fuck up so I can put the hurt on. It is a very passive gameplay style and one that ultimately relies on your opponent fucking up enough. I never get the feeling as PW that I made something happen... well occasionally with armor.

Painwheel also seems snowbally. Watching games at all levels (just finished your set with Skullbats set with Duck, well played by the way), she seems to either crush or get crushed with very, very little back and forth.

I'm also fast dealing with the fact that she just isn't mean to play solo which taints my opinion on this matter, no doubt (though I am at the point that I consider the "pick your team size" experiment a failure) ... but that's a different conversation.
 
Spencer said:
I think given the amount of time you've put in to learn PW resets, spacing, etc. is something that a Filia (for example) gets almost for free... obviously that's an exaggeration.
Yeah, PW is harder than Filia. But more difficult and worse are two very different things~

Painwheel also seems snowbally. Watching games at all levels (just finished your set with Skullbats set with Duck, well played by the way), she seems to either crush or get crushed with very, very little back and forth.
That's uh, SG in general..?
 
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IsaVulpes said:
more difficult and worse are two very different things

I'm sorry... What? I bet you used the the hammer in smash bros. 64 you sick man.
But you're right. They aren't the same thing.
But on that same token if I want to lift my car, using a regular manual jack is more difficult than using an automated one.
I don't know about you, but less difficult usually means an overall better experience in my book.

Anyway solo against any team is asking for a hard time. I would use a team, but I'm old school.
 
I'm certain that if some of you spent less time blaming PW's "lack of options" for your poor play and more time discovering how to make full use of what she can do, you would be a lot better. It's always the same people complaining about the same things, when will it end?

Also, if you use solo you shouldn't be complaining, at all. If you want xyz you can put a team together, anything else is on you and not the character that you play.
 
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Ah there it is.

1. There is no reason still that solo shouldn't be viable. But that is a separate argument.

2. I'm really not a bad PW when I stay up on it (which admittedly I've been playing more SF lately than SG), so don't ad hominum. It makes you look silly.

3. You can play, play well, and still think something is unbalanced... mind blowing, eh?

4. The natural extension to your logic is that nothing is ever imbalanced, ever since you should be busy shutting the fuck up and playing.

5. Why are you here instead of shutting the fuck up and playing? Or are you bitching about bitching just to bitch?
 
Spencer said:
5. Why are you here instead of shutting the fuck up and playing? Or are you bitching about bitching just to bitch?
...
...
Totally.
 
Spencer said:
Salt

He made a good point, though. It isn't the character's fault if we can't throw down and choke the chicken.
 
StripeyBoosh said:
He made a good point, though. It isn't the character's fault if we can't throw down and choke the chicken.

It is beside the point.

No one here is saying that the reason I suck is because of the character. When I stay up on it, I'm really not a bad player. You're not saying you are bad or good. He has zero idea how any of us play to be frank.

Not to mention that it is off topic. The quality of the player does not necessarily reflect the quality of the character. There are very good Dan, Hakan, El Fuerte, etc. players. That doesn't mean that Dan is all the sudden a better pick than Sagat.

The "learn to play" mantra is often an exercise in trying to shut down any legitimate criticism. Rogue stunlocked you? L2P. Toss too strong early game? L2P. *Pick a game and a balance issue*? L2P.
 
l2p is also "learn the fact that the harder-to-use character you chose plays how they play, so there's no point in complaining and you should rather apply that energy towards improving" but it's a little too wordy to fit into l2p
 
konkrete said:
l2p is also "learn the fact that the harder-to-use character you chose plays how they play, so there's no point in complaining and you should rather apply that energy towards improving" but it's a little too wordy to fit into l2p

"Common sense isn't all that common anymore".
 
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