• As part of the relaunch of Skullheart, ALL previous threads have been archived. You can find them at the bottom of the forum in the Archives (2021) section. The archives are locked, so please use the new forum sections to create new discussion threads.

Painwheel general discussion AKA GET OUT OF MY THREAD

Spencer said:
Stuff

Jumping right into your opponent's face with j.LP,j.LK,j.MK series also answers a lot, and you get a full combo from it. It's important for PW offense, because it beats Air-Throw intercept against PW's j.MP and j.HP, which is what everyone is doing after you jump forward after a certain range.
 
Krackatoa said:
Jumping right into your opponent's face with j.LP,j.LK,j.MK series also answers a lot, and you get a full combo from it. It's important for PW offense, because it beats Air-Throw intercept against PW's j.MP and j.HP

Yeah, I like super jump into that. Relying on flight a little elss and super jump a little more really is mandatory advice for a decent Painwheel. It also takes aggressive Parasouls and their ilk a little by surprise.

It isn't the perfect answer, but it is definitely important.
 
Solo Painwheel.. nigga you a masochist don't blame that on the character lol.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spencer
Agreed Domo, but she turns into MF and FIlia, and I'm a man with self-respect... and as we all know, no self-respecting person plays MF or Filia.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RAT__BABY
Mike_Z said:
So...about that Beta stuff...
well idk if this means you're looking for opinions but sure i'll go for it

unfly: it's WAY better now with half momentum than none but still kinda feels weird. is full momentum on unfly really good enough where she can't have it? my thought process is you unfly mostly to block stuff anyways so there won't be much of a forward momentum in the end if it since she'll be stopped in her tracks.

damage: i'm absolutely fine with the damage nerfs, i'm still getting 8.5k ish corner and my midscreens are unaffected. this is more than a fair trade off

j.hp armor?: and what was this that i keep hearing about painwheel supposed to get 2 hits of armor on j.hp as an experiment? to my knowledge it never happened. was it too cheap to even try out? was i deceived and this change was never going to be a thing?

overall if she stays the same in the beta and that gets translated to the game i'm still happy about it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RAT__BABY
Negus Eyoel said:
well idk if this means you're looking for opinions but sure i'll go for it
It did indeed.

Unfly - I didn't do half momentum because it was unfair, I did it because with full momentum if you do B+PP to block you often end up falling backward too far and the move misses or you get hit or land somewhere you didn't intend. I could try half backward and full forward...

j.HP 2x armor - yeah, it was in at Salty, but it's too dumb combined with unfly.
 
Probably an unpopular opinion but I would prefer having the j.HP change over having unfly. I feel like having 2-hit armour on j.HP builds on what she already does while unfly just adds another thing people have to learn and just makes her more like Sentinel. Maybe I'm just lazy. :P
 
I got pretty discouraged by special into fly cancel counting twice. Really flipped my apple cart.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TrulyAmiracle
I'm fine with the damage nerf, since we're only losing like 600 damage in the corner.

Unfly is really nice to have, it prevents some near unavoidable situations, but it doesn't help too much in her very tough matchups [parasoul, peacock]

I'd really like to have 2hit jhp armor to help painwheel deal with parasoul j.lp>j.hp, and peacock's zoning. Unfly lets us block it, but we pretty much go back to square one in the pcock matchup after blocking something in the air, and being forced to the ground and right in front of parasoul after blocking j.lp>j.hp is a pretty grim situation that's hard to avoid as well.
Maybe we could try having 2 hits of armor with unfly and see if that's still too much.

I had a pretty neat idea of Painwheel gaining some speed buffs after absorbing damage, so she could absorb projectiles and trade health for a temporary speed boost, or maybe something like spending the damage you had stored for instant lvl 2 or 3 nails or something. Maybe we could see if that would be helpful without being too good?
 
  • Like
Reactions: TrulyAmiracle and ElkyDori
@Xedders

What combos specifically is it breaking? What's your DPS loss mid and corner?

It seems a reasonable trade off to me, but I've admittedly not tried it out yet.

I also think flight cancel + 2x armor on j.hp is probably a bit too strong, and I'm glad (at least initially) to see that we are trying flight cancel out in relative isolation.
 
My only regret is losing the ability to fly cancel after M and H Nails. Could we have that back in? Nails isn't relevant to combo damage, except as an ender.

Doing actual offline testing at a gathering today. I'll post more later.

Xedders said:
Please revert the special->flight change. It's way too big and will break all of my combos, besides being completely unnecessary. If this is the tradeoff for the unfly change, I rather have neither. I love Painwheel just the way she is.

You're doing the wrong combos. Hurr hurr hurr.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RAT__BABY
Nail fly equaling 2 fly cancels really makes solo confirming off of them a lot harder for sure, but not impossible. top of sj heght would probably be very hard if not impossible, but normal jump height using j.mk gives plenty of hit stun to land and continue.

Completely unrelated, but PW can do the same fast fall stuff that double can with j.mp to j.hk. Why haven't I been doing this.
 
konkrete said:
Completely unrelated, but PW can do the same fast fall stuff that double can with j.mp to j.hk. Why haven't I been doing this.
wow why haven't I been doing this

We're stoops
 
konkrete said:
Completely unrelated, but PW can do the same fast fall stuff that double can with j.mp to j.hk. Why haven't I been doing this.


Ive been doing this for months. Though i dont use j.hk, i use j.mk.

J.hk falls slow in the case of the hit being high in the air.
-edit

Also I'd much much MUCH rather 2 hits of armor on j.hp than have unfly. What made old unfly good was unfly combos and the broken in some peoples minds ability to cancel outstretched normals into block especially on reaction to super freeze.

Well unfly for painwheel doesnt do either of those things and as such its utility is much less. Best use is as a safeish way to cancel flight... But let's face it... Just doing j.lk is probably good enough in 80% of situations and good defensive spacing taking care of the other 20%.

Whereas 2 hits of j.hp would be a much bigger boon in many matchups. Also, agreed on stinger fly not needing to use up 2 flys. That just seems like a nerf affecting more than it should. Stingers dont pump up painwheels damage at all and its supposed to be specials that START from the air right? So it doesnt make sense that stinger cancels would be affected... Same as hk buer... Though if hk buer is the reason for this affecting stingers then we can simply say the rule is for moves that RECOVER in the air as well. Which still leaves stingers unaffected but nerfs ground hk buer.



If none of this is possible i would at least like the backward half momentum, forward full momentum thing for unfly tried.
 
Last edited:
Well, if 2x armor on j.HP seems too easy, how about dash canceling during Hatred Guard? It would take more forethought to capitalize on.
 
ElkyDori said:
Well, if 2x armor on j.HP seems too easy, how about dash canceling during Hatred Guard? It would take more forethought to capitalize on.
no airdash to cancel with, though
 
ElkyDori said:
I mean on the ground.
In armors current form that would be crazy good cause dashes can be canceled into armor/attacks post block on frame 1, unlike sf4 where you have to go through the entire vulnerable period of the dash before being able to armor again. Maybe good if an armor cancel dash had sf4 properties tied to it... But still seems redundant.
 
Last edited:
ElkyDori said:
I mean on the ground.

Armor > dash would be kind of crazy.

FADC's with no meter requirement.
 
konkrete said:
Completely unrelated, but PW can do the same fast fall stuff that double can with j.mp to j.hk. Why haven't I been doing this.
I think most characters have something like this. I used to do it with Big Band to fastfall out of his j.LK until I realized that no one knows the matchup so they all try to pushblock on the first hit anyways.
 
Similar tactic, but far more powerful in SF4. FADC starts almost instantly and the game's pace along with the conservative amount of projectiles and multi-hitting attacks make it a very powerful tactic. Not to mention you get to regnerate health from a FADC, if I recall.

With a HG version, you aren't taking advantage of the damage boost, you have to account for HG's startup, and you will be telegraphing it to your opponent. I think reduced dash travel on "HGDC" would be a fair compromise if one is needed.

Not saying it'd be the next sliced bread, but I think it's worth testing for a few days.
 
Last edited:
@Dime_x

Yeah, I'd rather have 2x hits on j.hp, but I'm cautiously optimistic on fly canceling. It is tough to see how it will play out.

Out of curiosity, can we fly xx block xx fly?

My concern is the ability to fly cancel will help situations that we already have answers to like a raw Diamond Dynamo while not aiding in the situations we have a hell of a time against like all of Parasoul and most of Peacock.

It seems like fly canceling is mostly defensive whereas 2x j.hp is more defensive through aggression (which does seem more PW to me).
 
mcpeanuts said:
I think most characters have something like this. I used to do it with Big Band to fastfall out of his j.LK until I realized that no one knows the matchup so they all try to pushblock on the first hit anyways.

konkrete said:
Completely unrelated, but PW can do the same fast fall stuff that double can with j.mp to j.hk. Why haven't I been doing this.

McPeanuts' Double j.MK fastfall mixup got me thinking about that with Val/PW too. The neat thing is that you can string into j.HP on confirm, fastfall j.HK, or charge j.HP armor for thresher if you feel a reversal coming which will land/cancel if they do nothing.

I was playing around with PW's options on larger characters last night and j.LP, j.LK x fly x 2j.MP seems like a good way to dramatically fake something and low/throw or just let it ride without the fly cancel and/or (2) inertia. I doubt it's as good as going into j.MK stuff like most do now, but it seems like a reasonable option to at least stay spicy.
 
hlvn said:
I was playing around with PW's options on larger characters last night and j.LP, j.LK x fly x 2j.MP seems like a good way to dramatically fake something and low/throw or just let it ride without the fly cancel and/or (2) inertia. I doubt it's as good as going into j.MK stuff like most do now, but it seems like a reasonable option to at least stay spicy.

I'll have to try this if I have time tonight. It would be awesome to have a good fake into low reset in my pocket especially from that particular string.

Did you get to try it on a human at all?
 
IsaVulpes said:
Given my last couple of posts, it seems that I'm trying to double down on general douchebaggary.

What a shame.

On topic, gunning for 5-5 in a game with 10 characters isn't an unreasonable goal though probably not completely feasible.
 
GL making PW-PS and PW-Cock 5-5s without either making the latter two characters garbage or PW completely busted against Fortune/Bella/Stuffs

Tip: 2 Hit j.HP armor is not the way
 
Spencer said:
2x j.hp is more defensive through aggression (which does seem more PW to me).

IsaVulpes said:
2 Hit j.HP armor is not the way

As much as I'd prefer two hits of armor on j.HP for Parasoul and Peacock matchups, it'd severely fuck up other matchups. It feels right, but probably wouldn't work.

I've never played Marvel/Sentinel so unfly feels like an outsourced implementation that I don't really grasp with what I've played of SG/PW. Flying was always inherently a game of risky armor prophylaxis or up/back until you feel safe to go in. Going in just to change your mind and "empty fly" as it were feels off when considering how Painwheel was designed/played up to this point.

I trust the better painwheel players' opinions/experience though, so I guess it's good for PW and will work in the long run. Domo, Negus, and Satan all love the idea so I guess I'll get used to it or switch characters.
 
Last edited:
ElkyDori said:
Similar tactic, but far more powerful in SF4. FADC starts almost instantly and the game's pace along with the conservative amount of projectiles and multi-hitting attacks make it a very powerful tactic. Not to mention you get to regnerate health from a FADC, if I recall.

With a HG version, you aren't taking advantage of the damage boost, you have to account for HG's startup, and you will be telegraphing it to your opponent. I think reduced dash travel on "HGDC" would be a fair compromise if one is needed.

Not saying it'd be the next sliced bread, but I think it's worth testing for a few days.

That's true, but the other part is that armor > cancel (be it fly or dash) effectively trades whatever blockstun or hitstun you would normally take for the (often lower) startup of the move/movement you cancel into. In a lot of cases yeah you're transparent and bleeding, but if you just ignore blockstun or hitstun, you can effectively trade health for position. For a high-damage character with really good mixups to get the hit once you're in, that could feel pretty overwhelming imo.
 
re: Parasoul j.LP->j.HP
If you block that in the air you land first, and your blockstun ends when you land, so you can either hit her before she lands or start a HG normal that'll beat whatever she does next.

You're all underestimating the utility of being able to air block...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Krackatoa, kylon and Tomo009
@Mike_Z
I don't doubt for a second that I'm underestimating fly cancel.

I'm really just talking on gut reactions since I've not really got a chance to test it out (algorithms and data structure class is sucking my time like a Hoover).

I think initially reactions are going to be a tough metric in any case as absolutely none of us are used to unflying on reaction so there is a learning curve on top of it all (which is why I like that it is being tested in relative isolation).

@hlvn
Regarding x2 j.hp: I don't disagree that it would have an affect on other MU. I think some are overstated like Double, but some of the issues could be very real.

Double has a better PW j.mp which just chews through armor (ask any charging Bella) and a couple of other 3 hit moves which (in theory) should get through armor. What would be your concern specifically?

The MUs I see it changing the most would be vs Val or MF.
 
I like unfly a lot. It's nice to unfly and see how the opponent reacts now. It's like a mixup all its own. Personally, I like it a lot more than J. HP as a utility.

Not saying get rid of J. HP 2 hit armor, because now I see it used more against the likes of Peacock or even projectiles in general.
 
Mike_Z said:
re: Parasoul j.LP->j.HP
If you block that in the air you land first, and your blockstun ends when you land, so you can either hit her before she lands or start a HG normal that'll beat whatever she does next.

You're all underestimating the utility of being able to air block...
to my knowledge even if you block j.lp on average you land around the same time as her. i agree with baiting out a normal with a hatred guard normal. just wanted to point out you can't punish j.lp by chicken blocking it
 
I'd personally take the 2 hit j.HP over unfly any day just for the Peacock matchup, that shit is not fuckin fun.
From an overall balance perspective tho I can see why Mike's not planning on keeping it tho, it's gonna be a big buff in the other MUs (mainly MF).

atm tho I'm worried about the fly cancel from specials taking 2 flys, this feels totally unnecessary and I dont like it at all.
 
TrulyAmiracle said:
I'd personally take the 2 hit j.HP over unfly any day just for the Peacock matchup, that shit is not fuckin fun.
From an overall balance perspective tho I can see why Mike's not planning on keeping it tho, it's gonna be a big buff in the other MUs (mainly MF).

atm tho I'm worried about the fly cancel from specials taking 2 flys, this feels totally unnecessary and I dont like it at all.

Only character-specific way to break Krackatoa combos as I understand it.
 
hlvn said:
Only character-specific way to break Krackatoa combos as I understand it.

God damnit @Krackatoa , you're why we can't have nice things!
 
How about fly cancel from Reaper/Thresher to count once under install?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back