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Painwheel general discussion AKA GET OUT OF MY THREAD

try reading patch notes, cMK is low in beta -right now-
 
konkrete said:
Air parry? what i miss

5TH AND DON'T YOU FORGET IT

They are calling PWs unfly buff an air parry (it has kind of become a thing).

If you unfly and block in the unfly animation (5 frames), your hit stun is 1/4 of what it would normally be.

Edit: Blockstun... not hitstun.
 
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Oh I knew that and that's pretty cool. Let's not call that an air parry. I see it being useful against PC as it lets you fly>block>fly a lot faster. vulpes' OS idea is pretty cool but risky, but i could see stuff like fitting air buer between air blockstrings being a thing to try.
 
konkrete said:
Let's not call that an air parry.
What term do you prefer? It's clearly different from just Unflying, and "Timed Unfly to reduce blockstun" is kinda long. IU for "Instant Unfly" like Blazblue's "Instant Block"?

Parry is something not-blocking that makes you able to retaliate against predicted opponent's attacks which you normally couldn't punish, so I felt it fit.
 
Think of it like MvC2. When people say "unfly," what they really mean is "the state you gain when being hit out of the air that enables you to act immediately after unfly as long as you stay in the air, or superjump after you land." No one called it anything other than "unfly" even though you can still unfly regularly. We can just call is unfly block, instant block, or something of the sort. Parry just makes it sound like it's something it isn't.
 
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@konkrete

Out of curiosity, why did you run Painwheel at point vs Elda? The Parasoul v Painwheel MU seems more favorable (though you are obviously not getting the Pillar assist).
 
Spencer said:
As far as c.mk, does anyone have any ideas for uses? It will make her standard blockstring (c.lk > c.mk > s.hp x fly) a bit harder to block, but lk seems to still win the best PW footsy award, no? So is it just mostly a buff to the situations dime mentioned? I can't see it being thrown out at neutral.
For the most part, c.MK is inferior to c.LK as a poking tool at neutral. c.LK has greater reach, faster start-up and recovery, and more frame advantage on block (+5 vs -5). However, c.MK is easier to combo off of because it has quite a bit more hitstun, plus it does exactly twice as much damage so it would be better for damage scaling. Regardless, this is not the reason I feel that a low c.MK is actually a great buff. That reason would actually be the move's application in staggered pressure. As @Dime_x mentioned earlier, "it will definitely make people more conscious of just blocking high against her after the first ground attack, and pushblocking her first aerial attack to basically take most of her mixup game away in both areas." If you delay the c.LK cancel just a little, your opponent has to worry about a three-part mix-up. Your three options NOW are:
  1. Standard fly and go for an overhead. Until now, most opponents were conditioned to just block high immediately after c.LK because being swept by c.HK really does little more than just reset the neutral situation. As such, it was routine to just crouch-block the low and then stand-block the fly aerials.
  2. Go for an armored grounded move. Unfortunately, we have no low armored moves other than c.HK (which doesn't do much other than 1k raw damage), so the 'defending formula' of blocking high after c.LK would still cover this. If anything, this just allows us to bait bad reactions out of block.
  3. Go for the NEXT low attack which will allow us to combo. You can still easily get a full combo off of a confirmed c.MK hit and it would actually help your combo damage-wise. If you stagger your pressure so that your opponent has time to go into stand-block, then this will hit if he does.
Another thing I'd like to point out is a small something I noticed a little while ago when the PW hitboxes thread was created:
Stuff said:
cr.lk
UyQtG5C.png
cr.mk
PZA6h5Z.png
Notice the positioning of PW's hurtboxes (especially her rotor blades) in relation to her hitboxes. c.MK seems to have the safer positioning. I'm not exactly sure how useful this info is, but maybe that could be useful for stuffing low ADs or something, idk.

Edit: Tl;dr - It's not about neutral as much as it is about the pressure game.
 
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Just adding that you can combo out of charged c.hk. It just isn't easy to do so on reaction, but it is more than just 1k damage.
 
Yeah, that's true. I didn't actually forget about that, but I didn't consider it mostly because the opponent can also just react to a fully charged c.HK (or any fully charged grounded heavy). None of PW's grounded charge moves hit high (I actually really, really wish her c.HP hit high for this very reason), so you can kinda just quickly switch back to crouch-block the moment you see a Hatred charge. Ftr, fully charging c.HK requires 20 additional frames. Average human reaction time is between 1/6th and 1/5th of a second (10-12 frames).
 
Spencer said:
@konkrete

Out of curiosity, why did you run Painwheel at point vs Elda? The Parasoul v Painwheel MU seems more favorable (though you are obviously not getting the Pillar assist).
bc i wanted pillar and if pw gets rolled i can still rely on the matchup. lost anyway.
 
IsaVulpes said:
What term do you prefer? It's clearly different from just Unflying, and "Timed Unfly to reduce blockstun" is kinda long. IU for "Instant Unfly" like Blazblue's "Instant Block"?

Parry is something not-blocking that makes you able to retaliate against predicted opponent's attacks which you normally couldn't punish, so I felt it fit.

"Unfly" or "Unfly Guard Cancel" works.

Especially since there are already guard cancels in the game that people kind of understand.

Parries typically refer to an actual parry state/mechanic (i.e., 3S or BB parries) that explicitly avoids or circumvents blockstun, not the reduction of block stun.
 
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You played well. Caught a bad break on that second match. Elda's PW is horrifying to go against. I wasn't sure if you felt confident in your PW v PW or just wanted the pillar assist.

Interestingly, your Double really held its own (interesting because you are known as a PW/Para player).

@bubbaking

There are some games that can test your reaction times. This is the one I'm most familiar with.

Edited to add:

This also is a situation in which you know a high/low is coming. I wonder what appreciable difference if any there is when you don't know it is coming like as a reset at an unconventional reset point. I'm guessing Fukua's overhead is pushing hard against the boundary of reactable/unreactable and Parasoul's command overhead/lows are completely unreactable, right?
 
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Cr Mk low is a great buff. Besides better staggered pressure and a more low profile low, she also now has a second low/throw option out of chains. It used to be you could only reset low/throw after a jump move or st lp, now she has a second option, that does good starter damage to boot.
 
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bubbaking said:
Yeah, that's true. I didn't actually forget about that, but I didn't consider it mostly because the opponent can also just react to a fully charged c.HK (or any fully charged grounded heavy). None of PW's grounded charge moves hit high (I actually really, really wish her c.HP hit high for this very reason), so you can kinda just quickly switch back to crouch-block the moment you see a Hatred charge. Ftr, fully charging c.HK requires 20 additional frames. Average human reaction time is between 1/6th and 1/5th of a second (10-12 frames).
2[HK] isn't used to hit low.

It was actually one of my main ways to open people up in my later PW-maining days. 2LK > 2MK > 2[HK]

People usually pushblock the HP so the charged sweep not only acts as a nicely timed pushblock bait but if they panic and push a button, armour wins!
 
Spencer said:
This also is a situation in which you know a high/low is coming. I wonder what appreciable difference if any there is when you don't know it is coming like as a reset at an unconventional reset point. I'm guessing Fukua's overhead is pushing hard against the boundary of reactable/unreactable and Parasoul's command overhead/lows are completely unreactable, right?
I can generally react to Parasoul's overheads, especially the kick. Para's 4HK is a tad slower and it's generally used at specific points in the blockstring. At that point, both the low and overhead variants are, like, almost equally slow (the sweep is a little faster but I'm already crouch-blocking, so I'm really only looking for the overhead). 6LP is a bit harder because it can be used to open somebody up and start a string (and it's a tiny bit faster than 4HK), but it has, like, no range (compared to her regular moves), so if Para's literally on top of me, I'm already looking out for that move.

Along this line of thought, pretty much everybody, including Krakatoa (who also stated that Para's 6HK can be reacted to), told me that I can just react to all of Fukua's shadows (which I found very hard to believe), even at close range, when I posted about the trouble that move was giving me in the PW MU thread.
 
4HK is reactable, but it is fast enough that you can't react EVERY TIME in every situation unless you are specifically looking for that one move every time.

Fukua's shadows on the other hand, even at point blanc you can react to the overhead one easily if you know the different animations it is quite consistent but might catch you out every now and then, just like Val's Mortuary Drop.
 
Don't forget that SG has frameskip, so looking at a 22 frame normal, you only see 18-19f. Blocking 4HK on reaction is.. pretty hard. 6LP used to be doable in Vanilla but since the game got faster, it's.. pretty much out of the picture.

Blocking 4HK is more of a "I already know he's gonna do it, so I just block" kinda thing. Put a Para Dummy to record and input [6LP delay 2MK] on Slot1, [6LP 4HK] on Slot2, Replay as Random and think about how reliably you'd block this in an actual match.
 
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The primary problem when comparing standing overheads like para overheads to pw overheads is the animation telegraph. Its MUCH easier to block a 24 frame overhead that jumps on its first few frames, than a grounded overhead where half its animation startup is hidden by the startup to the overhead animation (paras gun at max height for f.lp, her boot all the way up in the air for b+hk) by the time those obvious frames are seen, the move is usually over half done... So you have lot less to react to and a lot less time to do it. Whereas flight overheads are airborn on frame 1, which gives max time to see the moves early telegraph... Plus its very instinctual to block high the instant you notice the point in the air. And compound that with painwheels extremely slow cr.lk so that fly>quick fastfall>cr.lk is usually timing blockable.


Ive found "unusual" ways to circumvent the timing os of: block high fast, then block low.

But for the most part, pws standard high/low mixup loses to "react to fly and block high at first and then block low" with a slight mixup from the defender as to whether or not they will try to pushblock the high.

Luckily, just doing a fly j.hp kills the "high fast low slow" blocking os that people use against pw... But I'm the only one that uses it afaik. And funnily enough, it is completely react blockable, but people dont do it because they are stuck on the timed blocking os. I hit everyone in au with ground fly j.hp resets, all day long... Except for tomo... Cause i dont play tomo.
 
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Yomi!

Slowverheads are my bane when I think I'm in the "zone" on defense.
 
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konkrete said:
Oh I knew that and that's pretty cool. Let's not call that an air parry. I see it being useful against PC as it lets you fly>block>fly a lot faster. vulpes' OS idea is pretty cool but risky, but i could see stuff like fitting air buer between air blockstrings being a thing to try.

If you unfly to block parasouls j.lp-> j.hp you can punish her once you hit the ground unless she decides to block. If you're low enough to the ground in flight you might be able to land in time to punish her but usually painwheels wont fly at that height. Throwing would beat the parasoul who know that they have to block when you unfly to block j.lp->j.hp.
 
I'd like to be able to negative edge unfly, but you can't. rip
 
http://skullgirls.com/forums/index.php?threads/j-lp-delay-cancel-bug.4160/
Discuss?

I would think that this would allow PW to turn any part of her strings that she could combo into fly > j.LP into a great reset point. Apparently, this can be done in the air or on the ground, but I'm not sure how PW could easily apply this on the ground. Don't really have to worry about reversals from most in the air also. Now, imagine this with Hatred Install active so that you keep getting that front-loaded damage after a reset. Seems interesting at the very least...
 
It isnt new, ive been doing it since vanilla. Its a good tick throw, but like everything else, isnt an end all be all.


Not all characters can do the kara cancel though. This tick is the first good reset mixup i used in sg way back in the day, and i still use it sometimes.

Also, for pw, the better version has always seemed to be the ground version. St.lp, st.lk~st.lp mixed up with st.lp, delay, cr.lk

For a super simple super effective low/throw mixup.
 
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This unfly guard cancel thing sounds odd. I'm looking forward to catching unfly with instant air ticks into grab bag for mad salt though.
 
It's still better than getting the full blockstun and having to deal with whatever frame-traps you have planned. I would think that 1/4 hitstun would mean that we could just hit/grab you or use our invincible air reversal to avoid that. Going for a grab would, at the very least, allow us to tech Grab Bag. I think PWs' general reactions out of unfly will change over time once we realize that we can just opt to not deal with certain moves.
 
Well... while we're discussing unfly.

We got it circa February, right? No one found much at all to do with it (though that doesn't stop people from lauding it as the second coming of Christ). Hell, the only use outside of baiting A-trains and their ilk was given to us by MikeZ... namely that by unflying we can punish Parasouls crazy good air game. That turned out to be incredibly fucking hard to use properly, so the match up remains relatively unchanged.

Fast forward almost half a year when it is discovered that by using unfly we can shorten (at the time eliminate, but that was changed) blockstun quite significantly. More of the same with it being heralded is an incredibly powerful tool to add to our already "under-utilized" toolbox with the implications being that we are all whiny and unskilled (and I mean all of us since our pros aren't using unfly either...).

So, I guess this is a meandering way to ask: where are we now? Has anyone found a meaningful use for unfly yet? Iuse it almost exclusively to block a full screen super or to bait out excellabella/a-train... that's it. I'm really rooting for it, but it seems like one of those things that sounds strong but is actually very limited. Please... someone... prove me wrong. Is anyone using it?
 
Nobody really used unfly in MvC2 for 4 years, don't be TOO sad.

About that negative-edging it...seems a little weird, but I can add it.
 
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I use unfly all the time.

Domo uses it a fair amount himself.

9/10, great move, Seattle approves.
 
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I'd love to get a set in then with either of you.

At the very least, I'd be curious on who/what/where/when/why you are using it? Is it just to block a projectile that you couldn't/wouldn't armor through or are you getting mileage out of it's shortened blockstun?

I'm not upset that we don't have much use for it. I'm more tired of hearing about it as a distraction (Have you tried unflying) or used as ammunition to shut down any talk of balance (You got an air-parry... what more do you want).

Mostly though, I'm just really interested in hearing what people are using it for. In 6 months, it is one of our least discussed features.
 
I like unfly to pretend I'm going for an air reset, and then baiting a super or pillar.
2Lk 2Mk 5Hp 214K PP 4 xx Le Smile Face :^)
 
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