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Painwheel general discussion AKA GET OUT OF MY THREAD

I'll try it out.

I need something to keep pillar honest.

Can you punish it pretty easily?

On assist call, don't you lose your momentum?
 
You can punish it really easy. If they bikes pretty sure you can just fly and then hover above them and j.HK.
You can call your assist before you go for the unfly so that if they do nothing you can get back in, if they reversal it usually it's pretty worth it, you can stop the bikes early in pillars case probably.
 
Spencer said:
I need something to keep pillar honest.

What I do is charge j.HP at a height too low to be air thrown, throw out reaction thresher when you armour Pillar.
 
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bubbaking said:
If you don't have meter, couldn't you just land and punish?

Yes.

This was the basis for a few of Krackatoa's old ToD combos.
 
Spencer said:
I'll try it out.

I need something to keep pillar honest.

Only way I know how is to do a setup that squeaks in between pillar's weird boxes (Might lose to defensive assist calls if you're setup isn't a mixup of any kind), or call assist + armor.
 
Yeah, I've been looking for some Parasoul specific stuff. She gives me fits.

I'm going to hit the lab for some Parasoul specific resets. I want her to be terrified to even try to Pillar at standard reset points.
 
Lol, even if you armor through my pillar i will still pillar through stuff. You can only make a GOOD parasoul so conscious of using her reversal.


Having said that, using armor xx thresher is a very valid way to blow through pillar xx bikes... Though I'm pretty sure that simply air blocking pillar and pushblocking it then cancel into fly above bikes and punish... Is a thing as well.

If the parasoul is decent then she can call an assistuch as beat extend while pillaring which will beat out j.hp armor. Which is why canceling into thresher before the assist makes contact, is paramount.
 
Charged cr.hk is wonderful now and I hope it stays. No input on charged cr.hp overhead, but it seems neat? Like if you get hit by you were probably asleep.

I am all in favor of better interactions with fully charged normals.
 
Skarmand said:
You still can't convert off 2HK though since it's a sweep right?

I think when it's charged you can.
 
If it's charged, it causes a knockdown from which you can OTG, but it's very fast and hard to convert unless you know it's coming or you call an assist beforehand to help you convert.

Weatherbee said:
Charged cr.hk is wonderful now and I hope it stays. No input on charged cr.hp overhead, but it seems neat? Like if you get hit by you were probably asleep.

I am all in favor of better interactions with fully charged normals.
Wait, are you saying this would be a good idea or is it actually happening? O_o
 
bubbaking said:
Wait, are you saying this would be a good idea or is it actually happening? O_o

It's in PC Beta.
 
Everybody's talking about c.hk while I'm still trying to figure out c.hp as a potential reset. I've got fast fall j.mk whiff into c.hp and low hitting assist mixup.
 
Triblue said:
Everybody's talking about c.hk while I'm still trying to figure out c.hp as a potential reset. I've got fast fall j.mk whiff into c.hp and low hitting assist mixup.
you can probably just put it after s.mk, j.mp or j.hp, and switch it for c.hk at times since it's hard to tell which version is coming on time to block
 
CaioLugon said:
you can probably just put it after s.mk, j.mp or j.hp, and switch it for c.hk at times since it's hard to tell which version is coming on time to block
The problem I'm concerned about is forcing them to try and block the c.hp/c.hk mixup. The assist is really only there to keep from escaping.
 
Peacock gets the new KO effect on her Road Roller.

I think the new KO effect should play on the hatred install version of throw and especially air throw!

 
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Skarmand said:
Peacock gets the new KO effect on her Road Roller.

I think the new KO effect should play on the hatred install version of throw and especially air throw!
I'm disappointed thats not let the bodies hit the floor
 
gllt said:
It's in PC Beta.
Wow, really! (O_O) Mike Z has answered my prayers! That's EXACTLY what I wanted on PW!
:PAI::PAI::PAI::PAI::PAI::PAI::PAI::PAI::PAI::PAI:

Triblue said:
Everybody's talking about c.hk while I'm still trying to figure out c.hp as a potential reset. I've got fast fall j.mk whiff into c.hp and low hitting assist mixup.
You could also run an overhead assist, like Para's b.HK or Squig's f.HP. Not only would they complement PW's new-found low mix-up game, but they could also combo off your charged c.HK. Also, Squig's f.HP is a pretty good lock-down tool in general.
 
bubbaking said:
You could also run an overhead assist, like Para's b.HK or Squig's f.HP. Not only would they complement PW's new-found low mix-up game, but they could also combo off your charged c.HK. Also, Squig's f.HP is a pretty good lock-down tool in general.
I was thinking of french twist and completely forgot about Squigly lockdown.
 
@bubbaking

If the (hg)c.hk goes through, it isn't even that hard to confirm out of. Like I said above, I think c.hk will be the "default" charge move now and (hg)c.hp as an overhead is there to remind your opponent that they can't autoblock low during HG.

@Mike_Z What is the frame data on HG moves, especially the pre-armor start-up? I know you posted them before, but would you mind posting them one more time so I can save them somewhere? I've no idea where to look.
 
Hi I am new Painwheel, please no bully!

Painwheel players: What do you think about being Counter Thrown out of Fly start up. [You can't tech]

I'm okay with getting Counter Hit because I couldn't have blocked anyways, but you can normally tech throws while flying.
Teching throws is important for defending her air space and I get really :^( when I can't tech a throw because I want to fly, even though I reacted in time and saw they were going for it. (Then you shouldn't have flied)
Where as Valentine is free to air dash and double jump without risk of being being counter thrown and not being able to tech. (Don't compare different characters!)

In a scenario like Double's j.MK j.HK leaving you suspended above her, and then you're about to fall onto a c.LK, characters with double jump can use it to avoid the low and then punish on the way down. (Painwheel is not one of those characters then)
If Double jumps up and throws instead, you can tech a throw from your double jump, unless you're Painwheel. (Then just don't fly and hit a normal!)
Painwheel can't tech if shes want to avoid falling onto an attack, even though she sorta strikes me as the air mobility character. (She is!)
But that does have to come with some draw backs for balance reasons.
I realize Painwheel's fly is not a double jump, but it does have many similar functions (Don't compare Fly to a double jump it's a special ability!)

There are many other times where you simply wanted to jump backwards and then fly and continue moving forwards or backwards and call an assist etc, but because they throw you on frame 15 and not 16(17?) frames after, you are not allowed to tech.
I guess this is what I mean about defending her air space, and how important teching throws are or unflying.

Also a defensive strategy in the corner against pressure; You can keep jumping, and then if they try and hit you with a normal on your landing, then you double jump and punish. You can sort of linger in this half touching the ground state over and over and call assists too, until they jump up and throw you or you find an opening, but you can tech so it's not so bad!
Painwheel can do the same thing by flying upwards and away and calling assists, or unflying to avoid the normals, but if you are thrown during that fly startup frame window suddenly you're done and they have corner combos and resets and pressure again. (Then don't do it)

I mean there's more pros and cons and all that but I was just curious to hear your guys' input!
 
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Painwheel players: What do you think about being Counter Thrown out of Fly start up.

I think a lot about it.
 
My take on it:


Dont fly when you are in throw range.
Though id be willing to give up all these new painwheel buffs if she could instead get a double jump.


Skarmand brings up a good point about double jump though. But i honestly think its more about double jump being slightly to strong than flight being weak.
 
Dime_x said:
My take on it:
Dont fly when you are in throw range.
Though id be willing to give up all these new painwheel buffs if she could instead get a double jump.

But i honestly think its more about double jump being slightly to strong than flight being weak.
So everyone is exploiting the strength of Double jumps that it makes the vulnerable part of fly seem like a bigger deal than it is? Thanks for your input!

I think if Painwheel could tech throws from her fly start up it would be able to do a lot of the things double jumps do. But you can't really block during it so it will never be able to beat as many options as a double jump.
 
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Skarmand said:
So everyone is exploiting the strength of Double jumps that it makes the vulnerable part of fly seem like a bigger deal than it is? Thanks for your input!

I think if Painwheel could tech throws from her fly start up it would be able to do a lot of the things double jumps do. I guess if it had a little speed boost for the first X frames even more so, but you can't really block during it so it will never be able to beat as many options as a double jump.


I dont know if you were being facetious with that last statement, but besides flight startup into throw break being pretty broken (albeit in a cool way) it wouldnt help out THAT much. You saying that you canceled into flight and then 10 frames later or less saying that you now want to throw break?
Just seems like something that wont see many applications OUTSIDE of the obvious option select that it entails:


If you can throw break during fiy startup that means one of two things is going to happen. Your throw break will be hidden in fly startup and will have no animation... Which is bad for a number of reasons. Perhaps not broken but pretty bad to design into the game... And still borders on to good.

The other thing that could happen is to allow throw startup to cancel fly startup..
Which makes a further mess of things such as gaining heaps of frame advantage from stuff like st.hp xx fly xx throw and land with advantage on block and hit.

Throw canceling would become a fundamental of ow play and execution limitations would be introduced that are quite like runstop execution... But that isnt the worst part, the worst part is the frame advantage would be possibly broken and therefor, block and hitstun would have to be revisited for all of pws normals.

So you either get a ridiculous option select, or a way to substantially decrease painwheels frame advantage, for a pretty dubious strat in the first place.


Unless you have alternative ways with which to implement the ability to throw break in startup of fly?
 
Dime_x said:
Words
Whoa, what is going on.
It's not just for the option for falling onto a low it's just general jump into your air mobility option, which val, fortune, bella, and all double jumpers are always doing, always double jumping and using their air mobility tools, because they are pretty safe and it's always a good move to use them.
Painwheel gets to fly in all directions, best mobility = bad defense and I get that. It just seems strange to have one window in your jump into air mobility option where you are not allowed to tech a throw, but you can before and after.

Why are animations breaking and all that jazz? None of that has to happen, if you're thrown during fly start up and you press throw as well, it just techs the air throw and you fall to the ground like they do.
 
I'm fine with it as is. Now that hurtbox smackdab in the middle of the buer during j.mp... fuck that thing.

I also wouldn't say "best" mobility if by best we mean most mobile. It is certainly the most reliable since you can move up when you want to move up, down when you want to go down, etc. But it isn't the most mobile. Our slower flight up and back stops it from being as all-purpose useful. I think any character with an airdash and a double jump takes the crown for "best" mobility.
 
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Afaik... And i could be wrong here because its been a long time and pw is constantly getting her stuff updated... But pw cant... Or at least couldnt EVER tech during fly. Fly is afaik a free throw for the opponent unless that changed. If it changed like a year ago or something it flew over my head cause i got used to playing without teching throws during fly. So i dont know what exactly you are talking about right there unless i missed it.

As far as just teching throws in fly startup.. I explained it pretty well i think:

You either get a ghost tech that allows pw to stay in flight... While having input a teched throw, which is bad because why wouldnt every painwheel out there just "option select" throw tech everytime they do a fly startup that has any chance of being in throw range?
Or you dont get a ghost tech and instead cancel flight startup, which creates all kinds of problems.
 
Skarmand said:
In a scenario like Double's j.HK ADC j.HK
Double doesn't have an airdash.

Also, you can't cancel attacks into a doublejump, whereas you can cancel attacks into flying both on the ground and in the air. Which, once people get more pro, would lead to things like cancelling to fly and teching a throw that would normally have been counter-thrown. (People did this in MvC2 to avoid being hit on the ground by things by flying out of the recovery of normals.) And yes you can do that with an airdash but not on the ground, and you are limited to one airdash whereas you are not limited to one fly.

Fly also has more startup than a doublejump, during which you can't block (whereas you can block during DJ startup), but afterwards you're not stuck in a trajectory. And you have armored normals, can block at any time, have momentum, etc. I don't really see them as comparable, myself.

Whatever, I shouldn't be here.
 
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Also @Skarmand

If you want to be able to wiff airthrow and not land on something... Just do a regular jump into airthrow. Pw will recover before she lands and can cancel into flight to save herself from landing on something.

If that is what you were talking about. I kinda cant tell exactly what it is you are talking about because you are talking about teching throws during flight but ALSO talking about saving yourself from falling i to pressure... Which is 2 different things.
 
@Mike_Z
Whoops, I was confusing her with Peacock and her double j.HK set up, I guess you can get a similar result with j.MK j.HK though.

Thank you for the reply though, the things that fly let's Painwheel do already but people aren't fully using warrant the CH throws and other disadvantages.

Dime_x said:
Also @Skarmand
If you want to be able to wiff airthrow and not land on something... Just do a regular jump into airthrow. Pw will recover before she lands and can cancel into flight to save herself from landing on something.

If that is what you were talking about. I kinda cant tell exactly what it is you are talking about because you are talking about teching throws during flight but ALSO talking about saving yourself from falling i to pressure... Which is 2 different things.
I am talking about getting thrown during j214K's start up before you enter flight mode?
If you are thrown in that window (Not before, or after) you are not allowed to tech.
 
Skarmand said:
I am talking about getting thrown during j214K's start up before you enter flight mode?
If you are thrown in that window you are not allowed to tech.

Yes, i know, that is what I'm talking about as well.

So let's frame by frame it so that you can understand:

Fly startup in the air is 10 frames, throw tech window is 13 frames.

If you fly and then immediately input throw tech during fly startup YOU ARE IMMUNE TO THROWS DURING FLY STARTUP, by your standards. This is an incredibly strong option select. The only way around this option select is to make it so that you can only tech throws AFTER having been thrown. And that still leaves a highly delayed option select on the table:

Fly wait 8-9 frames, tech. If no throw came, there is no tech and no throw wiff animation and pw is still flying. If a throw did come at any time during the fly startup, the late tech will tech automatically since throw tech window is so large.

The thing to do.... Maybe, is to allow throw be teched during fly after the throw has been started, but decrease the tech time to something below a 4 frame window..
At which point teching is ludicrously hard anyways and probably wont be happening and when it does hp happen.. Will probably just be a well timed option select rather than a read.
 
I didn't know you could cancel flight into throw.
Since it can be counter hit and counter thrown I figured it behaved by regular special move rules.
(Like not being able to counter a special into a throw.)
If you do want to cancel your fly into a throw though you're still falling to the ground for a 29/30 frames (May have miscounted the boxes)

"YOU ARE IMMUNE TO THROWS DURING FLY STARTUP"
But you're not even in fly startup any more you're in throw whiff for 30 frames.
"This is an incredibly strong option select."
I dunno you sort of just punch them instead.
 
@Dime_x: So I don't really want to get into this topic, but I'm not sure all of this stuff necessarily has to apply.
Dime_x said:
If you can throw break during fiy startup that means one of two things is going to happen. Your throw break will be hidden in fly startup and will have no animation... Which is bad for a number of reasons. Perhaps not broken but pretty bad to design into the game... And still borders on to good.
I'm not sure if this actually means anything. From what I have observed, you can break throws for a split second after you get grabbed so there really isn't a specific 'throw break animation' except for the part actually after the break. There shouldn't be any problem if that is also the case with fly. You don't need to specifically see the person trying to break the throw before it happens.

The other thing that could happen is to allow throw startup to cancel fly startup..
Which makes a further mess of things such as gaining heaps of frame advantage from stuff like st.hp xx fly xx throw and land with advantage on block and hit.
There are some moves in some FGs that allow you to tech throws at some point during them, but they don't let you do anything else. You don't necessarily need to be able to throw in order to be able to throw break, from a design standpoint that is.

Again, I'm not really for or against the implementation of such a thing as being able to tech grabs out of fly start-up. I'm just saying that there are definitely ways to implement it without it being broken or even doing anything other than letting PW tech during fly-startup. Of course, another way to do it is to shorten the start-up on fly but make it so that she can't actually do anything notable out of that shortened start-up. Kinda like how on hit, Bella's dash inputs are disabled for 13f after recovery but she can do other things.
 
I have Dime on ignore so I am missing those wonderful (I am sure) contributions.

Fly startup is not comparable to doublejump. It's more comparable to say, Fiber Upper or a stance cancel or something, it's a special move that puts you in the air. You can do everything with it that you can do with a special move, cancel normals / supercancel out of it / etc, so I don't think it warrants an exception for throw techs simply because you are also able to use it at neutral.
 
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