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Painwheel general discussion AKA GET OUT OF MY THREAD

So this messed me up for a solid 15 minutes in Training Mode, and for some reason I felt like I already knew this, but you cannot DHC into Hatred Install (or do it raw)if painwheel is already installed, which sort of sucks if it screws up your combo, but at the same time I can't see this happening in a real match very frequently.

It'd be cool if you could still DHC into HI (or do it raw if you wanna spend 2 bars) and it'll simply act as if you were never Installed in the first place, so basically it just bumps your timer back up to whatever value it would be based on your health, no stacking installs or anything like that.

Has anybody ever gotten bit by this in a real match?
 
I know this is random but has anyone ever wondered what Painwheel would look like fighting without her mask?
Ooh, man would love to see that.
 
Posting here because it makes more sense

well here's the things I would like to have on a compendium:

- General info
- Combos
- Resets
- Burst Baits
- Normals
- Specials
- Supers
- Movement
- Assist options
- Okizeme
- Characters specific stuff

If anyone would be interested in compiling information for any of these sections just post here so that two people won't do the same thing.
 
Ive been using lots of unfly in my game lately. It seems like a must particularly in the fukua matchup for dealing with m shadow and airfireballs. And doing something other than just armoring through them or making them miss.

Also in the bella matchup for baiting things like excelebella.


One thing that ive noticed about unfly that i was expecting @Spencer , was my lack of hesitation to unfly in towards my opponent. With attack unfly a you are left wide open and therefor kinda want to make space so you can land safely, but with true unfly being able to block, its easier to take more calculated risks, and makes flying in the opponents range, not actual suicide.


This combined with a new overall approach to painwheel @WarpedEcho for a willingness to throw stingers at any given safe opportunity has made my painwheel much more dynamic.


A go to pattern that I'm using is jump back j.mp plus call ground coverage assist like brass, land and backdash and throw a stinger.

It isnt applicable that much versus much of the cast but even getting the pattern off once or twice in a match is strong because of the ability to close in whether they pushblock or not.
 
I've definitely got mileage out of unfly. My biggest gripe was with people who don't play PW billing unfly as to why we were godlike... pshhh.

Anyway, yeah unflying while moving forward is nice and the momentum can put you right in their face. Vs Big Band you can almost do it on reaction to A-Train (almost) and get a full punish. Just yesterday, I had a Filia charge at me while I was flying and try and hit me with lvl 3. Unfly into block saved me.

I'm finding in match-ups that unfly can be useful (Parasoul/Fukua/BB), I'm generally flying too much and can avoid most of the awfulness by trying to stay more grounded and dash in to threat range.
 
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unfly is dope, and it's another option for painwheel, which means its more junk that your opponent needs to worry about.
 
I haven't been using unfly outside of two matchups. Any more good examples for Parasoul, Fukua, or just in general?
 
You can get a lot of mileage out of unfly in the BB match-up. In BB v PW, BB has to make a lot of correct guesses to win. Unfly makes those guesses even riskier.

Approach, unfly... punish A-Train.
 
Unfly is good for bulldogging your opponent. And combined with stinger setups is a very good tertiary tactic in the neutral for players that are to defensive or to offensive.

Sg as a game seems to make people want to play in either fashion. Painwheel i think has counterplay to these styles if uses unfly against the aggressives and stingers against the defensives.

Also, as a bonus. Ive found the best burst bait possible i think and it isnt timing beatable and best of all is its the tier 1 burst bait mixup of airthrow/midair burst bait. As anyone knows, airthrows are the ONLY thing that FORCE button inputs from the opponent.


An example is a really sick 50/50 high/low/crossover and under mixup... That example doesnt force buttons. The defender "can" just try and block.

BUT with airthrow/burst bait mixups. you are forced to press buttons. You either need to mash air super if youve got one. Or tech the throw. Both require buttons. Which is where the burst bait 50/50 comes from:


The setup is corner only and works against everyone except double. With double there is a more tame version though.

(In corner, j.lp tracked and stage 5)
St.mp, j.mp, j.hp fly down forward, delay airthrow or
St.mp, j.mp, j.hp fly down forward, delay j.lp


The timing varie slightly per character as far as the airthrow is concerned.


Janky version against double, j.lp tracked and stage 5:

St.mp, j.mp, j.hp land and do low/throw mixup (the throw can be jumped, which is why this version is jank)

The burst bait is:

St.mp, j.mp, j.hp fly downback j.lp

Only use the burst bait when you see your opponent trying to mash out of the low/throw 50/50. The timing for the low throw mixup and the burst bait is extremely close together timing wise.
 
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Just a small question. s.lp hatred can beat out jabs that come out 2 frames earlier (unless I'm mistaken). Can this be used as an answer to 1-2 frame traps?
 
Kind of.

There is definitely some use for charged lights. It is especially handy for jump-ins.

That said, rapid jabs, since every other jab in the game chains into itself, can be risky. I never thought it was worth it, but maybe your mileage will vary. Try it in training. I found that it was fairly reasonable vs slow jabs (Parasoul), but that it wasn't really reasonable at all vs fast jabs (MF).
 
Triblue said:
Just a small question. s.lp hatred can beat out jabs that come out 2 frames earlier (unless I'm mistaken). Can this be used as an answer to 1-2 frame traps?
lp armors are 3 frame start up, so it can only beat 4-frame frametraps
 
@Spencer
Yeah painwheels tech is quite execution intensive and character specific. Like ive been practicing st.hk xx stinger fly cancel overhead crossups... But they are character specifc. And st.hp xx fly crossup j.hk is character specific as well (doesnt work on backwards walking double or other tall characters.
And st.lp,cr.mk,st.hp xx fly jhk crossup doesnt work against val, many aerial burst baits dont work against double, and some hitbox burst baits dont work on bella.


Almost everything is frame specific, or character specific.


Some things DO work on most characters but are like 1 or 2 frame links to make work or some such. Everything has different timings and spacings.



Compare this to filias unseeable overhead and unseeable low mixup, and her crossup j.hk that works on nearly everyone.


I'm trying to develop a new style of pw right now (again) this painwheel is still stinger based and lame play based (but goes in on any block or hit that can be made into a mixup or confirm) its a st.mk based painwheel. St.mk has ridiculous priority and combos into bomber. So its st.mk plus call bomber and fly cancel. Or cancel into stinger and then fly cancel.

This will be augmented with jump back j.mp to cover the higher portion of the air that is above painwheels head, and i will also be using superjumps to cover double jump spacings and things like that. This should give me loose fullscreen coverage and allow a more dynamic neutral where i can control my own spacings better.

Well thats the theory anyways. I will have to concentrate on certain aspects per the matchup. Like against val it will be more super jumping, whereas against filia it will be more st.mk stuff. Against double it will probably be lots of backdash st.mk plus bomber, against fukua more super jump and mp stinger flight cancels when i get the chance etc etc.

Another bonus about st.mk that i didnt realize before is that its a perfect mixup for people that like to pushblock painwheels cr.lk on anticipation so thats always nice.
 
Can we pls pls pls petition mike to change pinion input to qcb+p?
 
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Dime_x said:
Can we pls pls pls petition mike to change pinion input to qcb+p?

Who doesn't want to charge turnaround punch with an input character who flies? I love the fact that pinion is back, it is my favorite move of hers. But dang, my brittle fingers are taking a beating.
 
For pad players, just set a macro to be turn punch and use right analog assists. For stick/hitbox users, charge with thumb on LK and ring finger on HK. Done. No fuss, just a little practise.

Edit: inb4 sticks with 10 buttons, the extra two for right analog up and another for right analog down starts getting used for sg when people actually want every competitive advantage they can get, if using stick
 
The point isnt whether its doable or not. The point is that its just a really bad thing. The way you state to charge for example has me losing cr.lk. And needing to fly with mk... And while those are both horrible things from my perfect ive... Perhaps doable... But really the BIGGEST reason why the hold a charge thing is bad, is because there is no way to tell what charge you have when charging at neutral and the different pinion levels all have different comboability and frame advanateges on block and startup times.

So the only good way to use pinion is in combo, otherwise you can never know what level of pinion you have. This isnt like tap where it largely doesnt matter because tap is safe on block and only gets more damage as the level goes up... Pinion is a completely different kind of move.
 
Dime_x said:
Can we pls pls pls petition mike to change pinion input to qcb+p?
Making Painwheel a little more manageable to use is always something I'd like to see.
 
eh, at first I didn't like it, but it's one of those things that we'll get used to pretty soon and it won't be a big deal I think. It's only beta, if after a while it still really does suck, then maybe it will get changed, who knows

plus, you gotta keep in mind that its a really solid move lol it should be restrictive and limiting if you want to use it, think about it:

- level 2 and level 3 both give you a red bounce
- they do a tad less damage than buer, but pinion dash is only 1 hit unlike the 2-hit buer
- as far as frame advantage on block goes, they're all negative as hell ( -16 for light, -30 something, - 40 something for M, H - I cant remember exactly ) so they're all a risk regardless of the version used
- startup frames are 10, 11, and 14 respectively. I can't remember the charge frames but I know they're somewhere on here or in the change notes
- on block, the level 3 version has ridiculous pushback, raw level 3 on block xx DeathCrawl xx safe DHC would be a super easy way outta the corner for two bars ( fuck catheads )
- on hit, in that same scenario I just said, you get out of the corner and the opponent gets placed right in front of you for an OTG with their back to the corner. So that means if your back is in the corner and you manage to land a hit, you have a super convenient way to get them in that spot, that'd be a huge gain. Yea, both of you are out of the corner and closer to midscreen, but you got the serious advantage here.
- in neutral you probably won't be charging up to level 3's anyway, the level 1 version moves painwheel forward plenty and certain projectile assists can probably make it safe

all that for just a QCB+P?
 
dMags said:
startup frames are 10, 11, and 14 respectively. I can't remember the charge frames but I know they're somewhere on here or in the change notes

Level 1: 60 Frames
Level 2: 180 Frames
Level 3: 300 Frames

I'm waiting to see how it plays out. Hopefully I'll get some time to lab it tonight actually to see how it plays out. My impression is that it will go largely unused. At the very least, we already have some decent execution requirements for things like baits, etc.

Anyway, frames go so fast in this game, that it might not even be that big of a deal to hold. Like I said, I'll report back later.
 
im considering just binding 2 kicks to a macro button and learning to "manually" call assist instead. I make enough stupid assist calls that I doubt I'll even notice a difference haha
 
I play 100% without macros because I'm a stubborn idiot.
 
man, i'd rather use right stick assists than doing it manually.

fuck that on pad
 
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dMags said:
eh, at first I didn't like it, but it's one of those things that we'll get used to pretty soon and it won't be a big deal I think. It's only beta, if after a while it still really does suck, then maybe it will get changed, who knows

plus, you gotta keep in mind that its a really solid move lol it should be restrictive and limiting if you want to use it, think about it:

- level 2 and level 3 both give you a red bounce
- they do a tad less damage than buer, but pinion dash is only 1 hit unlike the 2-hit buer
- as far as frame advantage on block goes, they're all negative as hell ( -16 for light, -30 something, - 40 something for M, H - I cant remember exactly ) so they're all a risk regardless of the version used
- startup frames are 10, 11, and 14 respectively. I can't remember the charge frames but I know they're somewhere on here or in the change notes
- on block, the level 3 version has ridiculous pushback, raw level 3 on block xx DeathCrawl xx safe DHC would be a super easy way outta the corner for two bars ( fuck catheads )
- on hit, in that same scenario I just said, you get out of the corner and the opponent gets placed right in front of you for an OTG with their back to the corner. So that means if your back is in the corner and you manage to land a hit, you have a super convenient way to get them in that spot, that'd be a huge gain. Yea, both of you are out of the corner and closer to midscreen, but you got the serious advantage here.
- in neutral you probably won't be charging up to level 3's anyway, the level 1 version moves painwheel forward plenty and certain projectile assists can probably make it safe

all that for just a QCB+P?


Try not to take this snarkily or in a defensive manner...


Your entire "argument" is simply listing attributes that the moves have.
This can be done for every move in the game with near the same kind of examples. Also, at least 2 of your examples can be said to be detriments. You state that it gives red bounce... As opposed to what exactly?


I cant see having to use an otg as a positive. I mean in and of itself it isnt really a total detriment, but it can be, but listing it as a positive? Thats... Well, strange.

Then you go onto say that its risky on block (actually it is TERRIBLE on block.. But i digress) but how is that a part of the "it has all these great attributes im about to list and that is why it deserves this weird input" thing you did?

Thats like a quarter of your list being dubious or straight up bad. That isnt really an effective argument for warranting a terrible input... Is it?

And your get out of corner example is serious theory fighter. Not that it could never be applied that way, but do you really think it could become something that the opponent would be trying to bait or even be worried about in the majority of instances? If you hold 2 kicks in the corner you lose the ability to reversal thresher (except for neg edge and thats like... Well yeah, good luck)... Thats a rather big handicap. If you hold 2 punches you lose the ability to pushblock... Another huge handicap.


And thats not even taking into consideration that you are talking about using a 14 frame startup move in a reversal fashion... That has no invincibility and no armor whatsoever...

Literally the only thing it has on buer at this point is that is doesnt scale our stuff. Thats about the only real positive the move has at all. Everything else youve mentioned is highly dubious and cant be relied on.


Now, having said that. If the move got a qcb motion.. It might be a tad bit op. BUT!!! This is where the smart designer balances the move accordingly. Making it do something like 450/650/850 (or all of them doing 850 or whatever set damage is a good balance) seems like a real actual way to balance the move to where it isnt op as a starter, but still allows pw to make use of it that deosnt gimp the hell out of her or simply add combo fodder which she doesnt need at all.

Thats what I'm asking for. The move in and of itself is nowhere near powerful enough to warrant its terrible input from what ive seen.

and though this is neither here nor there. I had a small session with magicman and he was trying to use and he exclaimed to me that the move was useless. I didnt ask for the opinion he just gave it to me. Yeah he may have some crazy combos with it eventually but pw already has those and giving her some combo fodder is of absolutely no benefit.
 
It's cool, I understand you're not trying to be snarky or defensive, and the same goes for me, just trying to present information.

But yeah, I should have made it clearer, some of the points i listed weren't all supposed to be positives, but rather explaining a few points that people had made. And yes, I am simply listing the attributes of the move, which totally can be done for any move in the game.

In your previous post, you had said that a problem with having to charge Pinion Dash is that you don't know what level you're going to get and that can be a problem considering frame advantage on block and startup times

Dime_x said:
But really the BIGGEST reason why the hold a charge thing is bad, is because there is no way to tell what charge you have when charging at neutral and the different pinion levels all have different comboability and frame advanateges on block and startup times.

This is why I said they're ALL unsafe on block ( because it's irrelevant in your argument), and the startup times are rather close to one another. Yes, they all have different properties on hit but thats why you practice the charge times in your combo, so you KNOW what you're gunna get. As far as charging in Neutral goes, I don't see much difference in any of the versions except for level 3. They're all unsafe on block, and on hit you can only reliably combo off of level 3 (level 2 if youre close to the corner).

Having a red bounce as opposed to a blue bounce, or just getting no follow-up whatsoever. It let's painwheel extend her combo's in ways that she couldn't before, obviously it's worse than no OTG and still being able to combo, but to say "oh this move has a red-bounce, thats bad" is a bad way to look at it.

As for the get out of the corner example, that was just 1 quick use I tried in TM. I'm not saying it's a "get out a reset guarentee'd reversal", but if you get an opportunity you could literally snap off a level 3 with little to no worry, even to end a blockstring simply because you can use the insane pushback and then spend meter and get super good positioning. The only reason I'm really bringing this up is because I want people to actually think about all the individual properties of the move and some of it's potential uses.

She's had this for like 2-3 weeks now? Give it time, it's so unexplored right now. The only way I could see it being fair with a QCB motion is if you had to stack them like Val's syringes.
 
So I played a bit with it last night.

I think I can safely say that I hate it. If the change goes through as is, I'm fine with that in the sense that I don't use pinion dash now and I'll likely not use it as is so it is zero change to me.

The problems as I see them are:
Awkward to use. We have to tie our hands in knots to get it to work and it feels needlessly difficult.

But making the (fair) argument that difficulty should have no bearing on anything as those that will get use out of it will learn to manage the difficulty leads me to ask "to what end"? It is punishable on block. It barely leads to any damage in its most useful form (level 1). So it is basically a movement option, which is awesome as our ground game is pretty slow... but with this input, even that is of limited use (It isn't 'on-demand', and we give up neutral options by holding the buttons).

If you wanted to disrespect or showboat, the new pinion is perfect for that. Does it have actual use in the neutral? I'd argue that it has very little right now.

Some thoughts on how to make it more useful come down to: it needs a better input or it needs utility.

Input:
- Charge input is better than turnpunch, and charge input is terrible as it is going to get wrecked every time we do anything.
- Holding one button would make this a lot more useful, but that will be almost impossible due to HG.
- QCBxP (which is what I'm rooting for)

Utility:
- Some kind of invincibility or armor
- Fly cancel on hit or block
- Better recovery or less/not punishable on block
 
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Dime_x said:
And your get out of corner example is serious theory fighter. Not that it could never be applied that way, but do you really think it could become something that the opponent would be trying to bait or even be worried about in the majority of instances? If you hold 2 kicks in the corner you lose the ability to reversal thresher (except for neg edge and thats like... Well yeah, good luck)... Thats a rather big handicap. If you hold 2 punches you lose the ability to pushblock... Another huge handicap.

Meant to comment on this one too....I'm not talking about this scenario with a with 2-button charge Pinion Dash, I meant if you had the ability to do the move using the QCB...so yeah as you're saying here, it is a huge handicap to try and charge this in the corner, but if the move were a QCB then it's at your disposal whenever you want, you lose no ability to pushblock or thresher or whatever you want.
 
Am I the only one that actually likes using new Pinion Dash with turn punch?
 
Alright, instead of snark, let me pretend it is staying and ask:

What are people using it for?

I've not noticed an increase in combo damage (to the contrary), though I've admittedly not tried to get a level 2/3 pinion into a combo.

@dMags

Why should this move come with a punishment attached to it ie it isn't available whenever you want it? It is already punishable on block. It has start-up. It isn't invulnerable.

Also, instead of just qcb, what about Filia's slide input with mashing the buttons for level 2 and 3?
 
I'm using it(Edit:Level 3 Pinion dash) to whiff punish shit from half-screen on reaction or prediction.
 
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I haven't played any matches with it because Skullgirls is crashing on me when I play online for some reason

but to answer your other question @Spencer, I feel like Painwheel gains a lot from having this move now. It didn't come with any nerfs, but only provides more options for Painwheel. Being able to choose between level 1, 2, or 3 without any sort of charge just seems too easy and it only adds more options to the table now that you really don't need to think "hey I should get a pinion ready".

So I guess what I should say, I'm not against having a QCB motion or any input change really, but I feel that no matter what the input is, there needs to be some sort of "charge" to it, so you can't just raw level 2/3 at your choosing.
 
Cilia slide input with a button mash would be awesome.

Still not seeing how this move could in any way be "op" with a qcb move input... Its like a higher damage bypass that cant be done in the air. Bypass is better in almost every other way and it is no where near op.

Also @dMags

The difference in frame advantage on block is very applicable to the move.

If i call an assist and then do pinion and my pinion has 16 frames of recovery on my level 1 while my assist lockd the opponent down, thats a lot of advantage for me. If i do the same thing with a lvl 3 thats a lot less advantage.


These things mattter, and it isnt just in that situation, there are other situations as well.

The tap input is really bad and a HUGE nerf to lvl1 pinion which originally had a down down input.
 
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So much fun to use in combos, but less minimum damage than buer. I'm so happy it's back though, the hilarity of it made it my favorite move back during console release, and it's my favorite assist, I love seeing the opponent just fly from wall to wall the entire match.
 
I love level 3 as an assist with my Squigly. She owns the air pretty hard, and level 3 is a present threat on the ground.
 
I enjoy that pinion dash was brought back. Like everyone else (mostly) I don't care for the input. Personally I'd like to see it's original input put back to use 22K.

On the subject of inputs... @ElkyDori What ever made you think backwards DP was a good idea for Hatred Install? I screw up my DHCs ALL the time in beta thanks to you. (Still love you man)
 
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Spencer said:
I love level 3 as an assist with my Squigly. She owns the air pretty hard, and level 3 is a present threat on the ground.
Elda Taluda said:
I enjoy that pinion dash was brought back. Like everyone else (mostly) I don't care for the input.
I recall the mashing part of pinion was a bit of a bother, but so is the current holding down input too.

Maybe make it like a traditional charge like Brass Knuckles? Or even a stance charge move like Squigly's charges?

I'd just like for it to have an interesting use and to be accessible for that use.
 
Elda Taluda said:
I enjoy that pinion dash was brought back. Like everyone else (mostly) I don't care for the input. Personally I'd like to see it's original input put back to use 22K.

On the subject of inputs... @ElkyDori What ever made you think backwards DP was a good idea for Hatred Install? I screw up my DHCs ALL the time in beta thanks to you. (Still love you man)

I am all for the input change. Not a lot gets my goat then getting HI instead of Thresher because they reset you super low to the ground. I think she's the only character that has a consideration like that, right?

I like to j.hk xx fly > j.mk as a reset on other PWs when they are in the corner. More often than not, if my timing is good, I bait out an HI and punish hard.

Also, I would be down for 22k. Why was it changed in the first place? That was before my time.
 
Elda Taluda said:
On the subject of inputs... @ElkyDori What ever made you think backwards DP was a good idea for Hatred Install? I screw up my DHCs ALL the time in beta thanks to you. (Still love you man)
To be fair, I never suggested 421KK for Install. I asked for 214KK, which was in for about one day.

It's messing me up too, but no more than the change from 214PP to 236KK did.

22K Pinion Dash was a nightmare for me in SDE. It's so easy to do by accident. I'd be down for 22KK, but I think Mike wants to keep double buttons for supers.
 
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