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Painwheel general discussion AKA GET OUT OF MY THREAD

when the input was 22K, was there any charge? Or just 22LK = lvl1, 22MK = lvl2, and 22HK = lvl3?
 
Yeah, sage is right. It was mash which is why I thought Cilia slide + mash (for level 2 and 3) was a good compromise.

@ElkyDori

I remember it messing me up bad as I was literally just learning the game and still mashing on buttons to get combos. Do you think it would still have that effect now that we're better? It would introduce a bit of a skill floor for newer players even still.
 
22k for lvl 1

22k xn for lvl 2 and 3

It was taken out because some salty people that dont even use pw anymore constantly complained about getting it out on accident. Which was a problem but one that was generally mitigated by practice, but i still got out an accidental one about every 20-30 games and the result was usually a dead painwheel, so the complaints had merit, but taking the move out wasnt expected.

In its current form lvl 1 pinion is HIGHLY gimped and level 3 pinion is buffed.
 
dekillsage said:
lol wasn't it 22k
kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

Yeah you did have to mash K after starting it. That said you could mash each K button independently opposed to the same button ala chunli's lightning kicks so I never had an issue with it personally.
 
Yeah it didn't really bother me either, but I never used it when it was in sde because I never saw the point. Is that the same still?
 
I didn't really "play" painwheel at that time. Couldn't find a use for it then either... Now though? Who knows. I'd give it a shot for sure.
 
There were uses at the time for early lvl 3 pinion in the starter... It actually increased damage substantially.


But...and this is a big "but"...

lvl1 pinion had excellent if not kinda op uses for anti pushblock if you had lk bomber or preferably hairball assist.

Like pw could j.mp and if the opponent pushblocked the last hit of j.mp or not, pw could land and level 1 pinion plus hairball assist for guaranteed pressure on block plus an anti pushblock string, plus an easy hitconfirm if anything hit.


This could also be done (and easily converted) with st.mk xx lvl 1 pinion plus hairball assist and also in confirms like cr.lk,cr.mk xx lvl 1 pinion plus assist.


It was very powerful stuff so it was a substantial nerf to get lvl 1 pinion plus assist taken away. And with these current inputs it still isnt possible to pinion plus assist so the nerf is still in effect. As it is now its only real use is as a level 3 or a VERY esoteric wiff punish tool... And still only the level 3 version is any kind of good because buer eclipses the level 1 and 2 versions easily.
 
As mentioned elsewhere at some point, the one use I had for old Pinion Dash was as optimal damage ender after 6HKx4, as L.Buer doesn't connect there on half the cast (and uses up OTG on the other half).
 
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ElkyDori said:
To be fair, I never suggested 421KK for Install. I asked for 214KK, which was in for about one day.

It's messing me up too, but no more than the change from 214PP to 236KK did.

I really hope it just goes back to 236KK.

I'm awful at hold/release input on pinion and will never use it as a result.
 
Hilary said:
I really hope it just goes back to 236KK.

I'm awful at hold/release input on pinion and will never use it as a result.
When Mike first mentioned a "turn punch pinion", I had sorta hoped it would be a like boxer's turn punch with invincibility.
 
Zazz said:
When Mike first mentioned a "turn punch pinion", I had sorta hoped it would be a like boxer's turn punch with invincibility.

That's kind of where I'm at. It needs some utility for its current input or a more lenient input.

With the current input, you effectively give up some utility in preparation of using Pinion dash a few seconds later in the future.

As is, it sounds like it is going to drift into disuse except by a handful of people who I'm guessing are playing lame behind assists charging up Pinion since you're likely sure as hell not flying around with it.
 
fully invulnerable level 3 pinion dash that you can cancel into hatred install on block mmmmmmmm that sounds real fair

guys just keep trying it out
 
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I don't think HI is that safe.

The training dummy was able to throw me almost 100% of the time as a reversal.

Even if it makes it fully safe, it is still a two meter ult that unless you are half dead is going to confer benefit for only a few seconds.

And again, it is two meter. I'm sure there's a precedent for a two meter ult making shit safe in this game, right? Hell, there are level 1s that make a ton of shit safe (Bikes!).

Also, two meter. Which with PWs less than amazing meter gain means that she's likely to get it twice a match (assuming a good match and good resets to maximize meter gain) assuming she doesn't use a single other super.

In any case, the list of people unhappy with the input is growing. And the more I try it out, the more I dislike it.

Though admittedly, I'll probably learn a pinion combo though because nothing says "disrespect" like wonky input combos that do less damage than a standard bnb.
 
Spencer said:
In any case, the list of people unhappy with the input is growing.
Maybe this week's stream updates will have something? One can hope?
Rynozilla said:
s.F + HK be an overhead?
No? Ok...
Where did this idea come from?
 
Zazz said:
Maybe this week's stream updates will have something? One can hope?
Where did this idea come from?
Isn't every other forward normal in the game an overhead? And it just LOOKS like it is on top of that. I mean, considering Mike changed Squigly's low-looking special to a low.... And such.....
 
Rynozilla said:
Isn't every other forward normal in the game an overhead? And it just LOOKS like it is on top of that. I mean, considering Mike changed Squigly's low-looking special to a low.... And such.....
It seems a little fast and would probably need to get slowed down if that were to happen, right?
 
Spencer said:
ult
Please

Spencer said:
I'm sure there's a precedent for a two meter ult making shit safe in this game, right?
Please

Spencer said:
there are level 1s that make a ton of shit safe (Bikes!).
Please

Spencer said:
I'll probably learn a pinion combo though because nothing says "disrespect" like wonky input combos that do less damage than a standard bnb.
Please

Rynozilla said:
Isn't every other forward normal in the game an overhead?
Please

Parasoul 6MP
Parasoul 6HP
Cerebella 6HP
Painwheel 6HK

vs

Parasoul 6LP
Squigly 6HP

Almost
 
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Don't say Ult, it's a Super

Bomber xx Catheads isn't safe

Pillar xx Bikes isn't safe

Nothing, I just don't see a purpose in "disrespecting"

Babe?

Anyway, invincible Pinion is a terrible idea and won't happen
 
First, you'll have to forgive "Ult". I play a lot of different games, and up until recently I was a huge moba player. My fault though, you are correct.

But seriously, I don't think anyone is actually trying to get invincible pinion. We just want a better input that is actually useable. At this point, I'm pretty whatever about it. It is nice that we got something for sure. But with this input, I could take or leave it.

Also, I was kidding about the disrespect part. Mainly just to illustrate that pinion has limited uses in a combo since it doesn't add much damage (in most cases the combo loses damage) and increases execution.

As for the rest, I still don't think that Pinion > HI is all that safe. It is still early and the training dummy is hardly perfect so I could be way wrong, but it was successfully throwing me out of HI.

In any case, assuming it is safe on HI, so what? It costs two meter on a character that doesn't build meter all that well. Like I said above, it will likely only be used twice a match assuming you do no other super.

But it does sound like AU has found use for it, so I'd love to see some videos or something, because I'm finding it to be underwhelming as is.
 
ElkyDori said:
It's not a Super, it's a Blockbuster.

Sweetheart.
OohBurn.gif
 
Rynozilla said:
Hmm.. Most likely... Still, it'd be a bit more useful, no?
Standing overheads tend to usually be useful. Just hoping for a new pinion input now.

Anyway, anti-air grab Buer seems helpful.
 
Wait for it...

I think PWs in a good place right now. With or without Pinion.
 
Rynozilla said:
s.F + HK be an overhead?
No? Ok...
F+hk as an overhead would be overkill in my opinion. It would defeat the purpose of the c.hp charge change. Who would end blockstrings with charge c.hp instead of f+hk if they wanted an overhead? No one. PW already has TONS of overhead options thanks to fly canceled normals and the mentioned charged c.hp. PWs mix-up was EXTREMELY strong before all the recent changes and I really don't feel she needs anything else.

If you make good use her current tools she can be damn near frightening.. Especially with assists.
 
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F+HK as an overhead isn't likely and I agree it would be a bit much since we have cr.hp as an overhead now. Any invincibility to pinion dash I can confirm will not happen. It's just kind of there again.

Also stop being nitpicky on nomenclature. Either term gets the point across. Don't be that guy. Except Elky, 'cause he served y'all. But ya, don't be a turd. If you wanna correct someone do it tactfully. I don't wanna read through that drivel.

PW is in a pretty good place, there are maybe like 2-3 tweaks I'd like to try out... I really want s.mp to have an appropriate hitbox for starters, look at this thing: http://imgur.com/a/Wt4H9#0

Needles everywhere and no hitbox on them maybe like another active frame too x.x.
 
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With a ground overhead and a third low, her mixup is plenty good now. I will always campaign for more armor, because I'm an addict.

Buer Overdrive damage still seems pretty low for three meters. I don't really expect to get a damage buff, but as a consolation, wall bounces being more consistent would be nice.

My pet peeve right now is c.MP during crossunders causing side-switching freakout on Eliza and a couple others. But that's a bug, and I need to get footage to Mike.
 
F+hk is dumb as an overhead because it is way to fast as a startup and has little to no tell for the startup that it does have.

Painwheel as she is needs no buffs. But that doesnt mean that she doesnt have weaknesses and things that could use tweaking to make her make more sense.



But if she got tweaked to make more sense (and those "tweaks" would all be buffs) she would have to be nerfed to result in a similar level of overall power that she has right now.

The upback buff is disheartening to her fly mixups against people that have good defense... But we will have to see how it plays out in the long run, because no one afaik is yet making it their job to upback out of predicted flight mixups.
 
Yeah invincibility really shouldn't happen on pinion. My point is that with the current input, it really doesn't serve a practical purpose. It should either gain some utility or a better input. Hell, even if it got a damage to make c.lk (hold) > c.mk (hold) > s.hp > pinion > super better than lk.buer > super for our final string, it would add something.

At least Boxer has a reason to charge turn punch despite giving up a button. It has invincible frames. It breaks armor. It is hard to punish if it hits late on its active frames.

Ours has no armor/invincibility (projectile or otherwise). It doesn't break armor. It is relatively easy to punish, and we give up two buttons to do it.

@ElkyDori

Is c.mk the problem? You can recreate it super easily on Eliza if you Thresher > j.mk > stuff. Super freaking annoying.
 
Pw optimal high/low mixups?

Is it possible? I think it might be:


St.hp xx fly df+j.mk, cr.lk (the j.mk wiffs. Here and looks like the startup of j.mk high that hits high.

St.hp xx fly, df movement, go back to neutral fly and j.lp


This is very close to being a high/ low on the same timing frame. Right now, people are used to blocking pw flight mixups like block high first then switch to immediate low block which kills the inherent high/ low mixup... But by delaying the j.lp high we can effectively get off an unseeable mixup that is great because it is an unscaled starter.

And crazy mixups such as fly df move, delay j.lp into land and fly into the same thing again become possible.


So its something to experiment with.
 
I generally use [fly [jLK | unfly cLK | unfly throw]. I tend to do it more from the initial jLX, but will mix it up from the cLX, cMK, or sHP in a ground chain as well.

There have been plenty of cases where someone I'm playing is willing to try and jab/mash and they get unfly guard canceled at best and chicken blocked at worst.
 
Hilary said:
I generally use [fly [jLK | unfly cLK | unfly throw]. I tend to do it more from the initial jLX, but will mix it up from the cLX, cMK, or sHP in a ground chain as well.

There have been plenty of cases where someone I'm playing is willing to try and jab/mash and they get unfly guard canceled at best and chicken blocked at worst.

These all lose to Up+Back in the new system. Whiff j.MK > cr.LK still works.

I use late j.LK xx Refly > j.LK to deal with High/Low rhythm blocking.
 
Blah Blah into 2[HK] + Assist at the end, ]HK[ FC, Assist hits.

Absorbs reversal, can't upback out of the 2HK, then an assist grounds them so you can have enough time to go high | low | throw, while they're just exiting blockstun (Or in it if their AG isn't in point)
 
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Skarmand said:
Blah Blah into 2[HK] + Assist at the end, ]HK[ FC, Assist hits.

Absorbs reversal, can't upback out of the 2HK, then an assist grounds them so you can have enough time to go high | low | throw, while they're just exiting blockstun (Or in it if their AG isn't in point)

This is where Low Assist works really well, or fly 1-3 frames before the assist connects to have a mid/high hitting assist catch up+back (Retail only).
 
In love with the squigly unblockable again. It basically adds a "free" 5k damage reset at max undizzy.


And with non resets, its still great as a mixup from cr.lk xx fly

And the unblockable can be mixed up with j.mk instead of j.hk... The j.mk version is a safe jump against everything not active on the first or second frame. So its super powerful.


All in all pw comes to difficult to block with the unblockable forcing peoples hands, plus trying to deal with crossups and throws and multiple overheads etc etc.

The unblockable is also stupid easy to setup:

Any fly you do while the opponent stays on the ground with pw in range for j.hk is an unblockable setup... So things like j.mp xx fly plus squigly cr.hp assist, j.hk... are unblockable if the opponent is on the ground.

I dont know the frames to block the unblockable, but it feels like a switch block that has at most 3 frames to switch blocks, and mostly feels like 1 or 2 frame timing... It certainly isnt easy to block and i would just say near impossible since its only one of many options the opponent has to be on the lookout for.


Also as spencer has said... Charge cr.hp plus sqg cr.hp assist is ridic as well but not unblockable.
 
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