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Painwheel general discussion AKA GET OUT OF MY THREAD

Krackatoa said:
Can't you just pushblock and switch blocks for unblockable protection?


Its really weird man. Testing it against filia dummy now:

Pushblock... Really hard to do, you dont get protection till you switch your block and by that time squigly is already hitting. So no pushblock seems like one of the worst/hardest ideas.

Holding up/back in beta:

Doesnt work, for whatever reason filia gets hit before she gets off the ground.
Holding downback or back:

Doesnt work, filia gets hit.

High block to low block switch:

As filia dummy this was surprisingly easy. Seems like at least 3-4 frame timing. Still quite hard to do "at the board" so to speak and more than likely impossible to do outside one of the sickest guesses out there.


But the funny thing about this was:

I cant hold upback to get out of this, but i can hold downback and then upback switch block at the last second and get out easily without painwheels j.hk even touching filia. So yeah its strange.

But none of that really matters, its hard as shit to switchblock and unblockable against any hold block/chicken block defense.


Tested from cr.lk,cr.mk,st.hp xx fly plus assist 6j.hk on filia dummy.

Anything not on hit or from a lesser hitstun/blockstun move can be upbacked out of... Eg cr.lk xx fly stuff.. Of course :)

-edit. Oh yeah forgot to say, though ive mentioned it elsewhere, is that if you use the j.mk safe jump version you cant be pushblocked away for whatever reason.

Also, if someone were to git gud at switch blocking this that gives pw a boatload of options cause of all the mental focus that one needs to be able to do it well. Like pw can just cancel the j.hk into another j.hk for more highs, or pw can just sit there in fly and let the assist hit, or pw can time the j.hk to hit just after the assist... So there's a stupid amount of options to mix this up with.
 
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Dime_x said:
Its really weird man. Testing it against filia dummy now:

Pushblock... Really hard to do, you dont get protection till you switch your block and by that time squigly is already hitting. So no pushblock seems like one of the worst/hardest ideas.

The built in unblockable protection on regular block should give you a fairly lenient window to pushblock and switch block. I'll look into it later.
 
Krackatoa said:
The built in unblockable protection on regular block should give you a fairly lenient window to pushblock and switch block. I'll look into it later.
Not from what ive seen.

The reason why this works as far as i know is because unblockable protection only works during hitstop. But since both these multihit moves are only high or low on the first contactable hit, they have VERY LITTLE hitstop. If it were a 1 hit low, or a 1 hit high it would be much easier to deal with. Also much easier to deal with if all hits from the assist were counted as low, or all hits from j.hk were counted as high since that would afford gobs of hitstop and unblockable protection to go with it. But you only get 1 small less than a jab hit of ub protection with this setup which is why its so good.
 
Omg sorry double post but yeah its because of the hitstop:

Pw j.hk basically gives you no ub protection. Listed in the srk wiki pw j.hk is listed hitstop as 2x6, so basically you only get 2 frames of ub protection from j.hk. The rest are all mid so no ub protection.

As an example, pw st.lp gives 8 frames of hitstop and st.hp gives 15 frames of hitstop.

Squigly cr.hp gives 5 frames of hitstop.

So yeah, not much ub protection at all.
 
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Dime_x said:
Omg sorry double post but yeah its because of the hitstop:

Pw j.hk basically gives you no ub protection. Listed in the srk wiki pw j.hk is listed hitstop as 2x6, so basically you only get 2 frames of ub protection from j.hk. The rest are all mid so no ub protection.

As an example, pw st.lp gives 8 frames of hitstop and st.hp gives 15 frames of hitstop.

Squigly cr.hp gives 5 frames of hitstop.

So yeah, not much ub protection at all.

Looks like you're right on the j.HK shenanigans. However, the mixup itself isn't crazy broken. There seems to be a fairly large gap in the setup off s.HP. You need to get the j.HK to hit first, or the UB protection is fairly wide thanks to cr.HP. This means you need to call the assist after you fly. You can do Fly > Call Assist + j.LK xx Refly > j.HK, which I think might be best.

The setup IS blockable normally (High, Low, High or High, Low...), but trying to Pushblock and switch for protection seems to be death, however. It feels like you need to nearly just frame the directional change after inputting PP. The setup loses it's potency if Squiggles gets blocked first.
 
Yeah it isnt broken from a "cant do anything about this at all" perspective. Its broken from a "hey you probably will never block this consistently, but oh wait you did once.. Thats cute, now eat my next 2 mixups because you are still locked down from my assist, and i can do this from basically any fly starter"

Kind of thing. It beats hold blocks of any kind. It "loses" to switch blocks. And thats assuming you know exactly when its coming, and you will still have to block a further 2 mixups in general.


It is exceptionally strong, but since it loses to reversals of any kind its strength is mitigated by still using it smartly, not excessively abusively.
 
Current Beowulf team and strategy starring painwheel:

Beo/BB/pw

Beo plays point and gets a hitconfirm that he combos into painwheels tag (lots of ways to do this but the easiest one though it can be position and character dependent is cr.lk,cr.mp,cr.hp xx m chair mash tag)

Pw will otg with her tag and you can full combo from there.

What this gets you is Beowulfs chairless cr.hp as an assist. And that cr.hp assist 2 hits for lockdown and armored on the first frame plus it has a gigantic hitbox and painwheel can confirm it easily.


So its pretty fantastic for pw. Whether the strat is great or not is anyone's guess and will take time to tell, but its certainly fun and original and definitely feels quite strong.
 
Dunno where to ask this.. calling in @ElkyDori

I know you don't worry about it but.. I really really want to do 9Fly on hitbox and I JUST CAN'T. God it's hard.. are there any hitbox/keyboard players that do this and do you have any execution tips?
 
gllt said:
Dunno where to ask this.. calling in @ElkyDori

I know you don't worry about it but.. I really really want to do 9Fly on hitbox and I JUST CAN'T. God it's hard.. are there any hitbox/keyboard players that do this and do you have any execution tips?
This was one of the things I struggled with for months. Think like you're trying to jump forward out of your fly. As though it's an action rather than a direction. Whenever I treat up as jump in my head, it works better.
 
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@Elda Taluda

How do you do your optimal Pain/Copter finisher?

Getting 8k in the corner by Parasoul doing nothing, raw tagging into PW and PW does the damage for me YUSH
 
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What defensive options are out there for a solo painwheel when a person is using an assist zoning attack (or just any attack that moves far) and the person has you locked in a blocking position for a while? I know I could try pbgc. Grabbing is harder for me because i like to confirm grab.
 
WrestlerGuile said:
What defensive options are out there for a solo painwheel when a person is using an assist zoning attack (or just any attack that moves far) and the person has you locked in a blocking position for a while? I know I could try pbgc. Grabbing is harder for me because i like to confirm grab.


Nothing that you dont already know about:

Air and ground pbgc into super
Pushblock at the right moment
Armored normals
Whatever evasion is open to you (jump,superjump,dash)

Any pbgc CAN work as well such as pbgc into mk buer... But you have to know what it works agai st and doesnt work against... And still wont be super effective. You can also pbgc into fly, but once again that is super situation specific.

You can try to to pbgc fly xx airsuper... But that is situation specific like everything. Pbgc then mash upback superjump might be a very good option now that upback has been buffed.
 
You sorta just gotta block like everyone else.
Things like Dynamo, Gregor, FursurkerBarrage won't get out of this either since the assist will hit them, or the point will be blocking.

Best thing to do is to pay close to attention to when the assist is going to hit. If the assist is going to hit first do your best to block and then PB AG so the mix up doesn't matter.

If the point is hitting first then you kinda gotta block or go for a throw IF the mixup is a slow overhead.

But yeah nobody gets out of those for free without spending bars or having a specific super or doing something really unsafe. Focus on not getting into that spot in the first place and make sure your AG's are on point to help deal with the assist + point mix up.
 
So.... How do we painpeeps feel about current beta carol?

I havent had a chance to play seriously in a couple of months... But she feels absolutely fantastic in her current beta form... Shes got faster flight, unfly, charged cr.hp is an overhead and a really good optimal reset starter tool.

I honestly feel like she may be close to the best character in the beta... Anyone agree/disagree?
 
I wish I could agree, but I don't have the beta. She does certainly sounds better. She sounds like she has better neutral options. How do y'all feel about her non-super wheel thing?
 
WrestlerGuile said:
I wish I could agree, but I don't have the beta. She does certainly sounds better. She sounds like she has better neutral options. How do y'all feel about her non-super wheel thing?
She seems nicer. But I get the feeling that non-assist Pinion just was sorta there and it was severely limited by a very demanding input that had no reward for performing said input.

I had secretly hoped it would've ended up like a sort roll move that hit multiple times modeled after the most frightening enemy in Dark Souls: The Wheel Skeleton. But that is perhaps too terrifying.
 
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Dime_x said:
So.... How do we painpeeps feel about current beta carol?

I havent had a chance to play seriously in a couple of months... But she feels absolutely fantastic in her current beta form... Shes got faster flight, unfly, charged cr.hp is an overhead and a really good optimal reset starter tool.

I honestly feel like she may be close to the best character in the beta... Anyone agree/disagree?

I'll say it. As of right now I feel PW is one of the best characters in the game.

She has an amazing amount of control in the neutral game so long as you aren't fighting Peacock or Fukua.. But that's par for the course with those match ups. If you can stay properly spaced it's damn near impossible to do anything about j.mp/fly in fake outs. She can bait assist calls for DAYS. She can force characters to come to her with nails if you don't feel like advancing. Her ground game mixup with charged c.hp/c.hk is extremely strong. Plus, her 50/50's are some of the easiest to do.. And thanks to how awesome her throw conversions are, people need to be just as afraid of getting grabbed and getting caught holding up back.




Do I even need to mention the cross ups? THE CROSS UPS! THE FAKE CROSS UPS! TEH MIND GAMEZZZZ!




Really though, I cannot stress how important the neutral game is for Painwheel. She is probably the only character on my team that I am constantly paying attention to my spacing in the neutral game. It makes SUCH a huge difference between getting counter hit and stuffing my opponents options. We all know her normals are SLOW. That said, if you can use the right normal at the right distance in most situations you'll trade at worst. More often than not you'll win and thanks to how meaty her normals are you can usually react even in awkward situations. She is incredibly good at just about everything as long as you can stay at the optimal distance for whatever attack you are planning to use.

I could go on and on but for whatever reason I have an incredibly hard time putting my thoughts down and what should take five-ish minutes ends up taking-- *looks at clock*. Thirty.
 
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I never knew you could combo with non-charge c.HK. I usually follow up with LK Beur or fly xx j.LP but it's weird because the opponent lands blue instead of pink, but will land pink when I use charged c.HK, which is cool because it brings my opponents closer to me as I do use it in my neutral.

Also, what are the best neutrals to use as a solowheel? I would jump backwards with j.mp because it is shit unless you use it in a combo, then fly with a forward j.mk.
 
Elda Taluda said:
I'll say it. As of right now I feel PW is one of the best characters in the game.

She has an amazing amount of control in the neutral game so long as you aren't fighting Peacock or Fukua.. But that's par for the course with those match ups. If you can stay properly spaced it's damn near impossible to do anything about j.mp/fly in fake outs. She can bait assist calls for DAYS. She can force characters to come to her with nails if you don't feel like advancing. Her ground game mixup with charged c.hp/c.hk is extremely strong. Plus, her 50/50's are some of the easiest to do.. And thanks to how awesome her throw conversions are, people need to be just as afraid of getting grabbed and getting caught holding up back.




Do I even need to mention the cross ups? THE CROSS UPS! THE FAKE CROSS UPS! TEH MIND GAMEZZZZ!




Really though, I cannot stress how important the neutral game is for Painwheel. She is probably the only character on my team that I am constantly paying attention to my spacing in the neutral game. It makes SUCH a huge difference between getting counter hit and stuffing my opponents options. We all know her normals are SLOW. That said, if you can use the right normal at the right distance in most situations you'll trade at worst. More often than not you'll win and thanks to how meaty her normals are you can usually react even in awkward situations. She is incredibly good at just about everything as long as you can stay at the optimal distance for whatever attack you are planning to use.

I could go on and on but for whatever reason I have an incredibly hard time putting my thoughts down and what should take five-ish minutes ends up taking-- *looks at clock*. Thirty.


Yes, EXACTLY!


Theres also other stealth buffs for her:

New updo having its range nerfed is a buff to aerial painwheels at neutral for obvious reasons... But you mix that with painwheels new farther range air to ground normals from flight...thats a pretty significant change of events.

Painwheel still has weaknesses, but right now she seems like a true jack of all trades character. I cant really think of any place that she is now exceptionally weak.


My newest team is pw/band/peacock:

Band uses peacock airshow assist to make his m brass safe on block if not plus, and painwheel uses whichever band assist i feel she needs for the matchup, but pw also uses airshow george REALLY freaking well:

Call it out while flying then use it as a flying shield while moving in.
Do mp nail plus airshow assist xx fly and pw covers the ground and air with projectiles very quickly while being able to advance behind george and ground stinger
Just call george while flying to take up space in general...


I find this strategy when combined with L extend to make pw very hard to fight against.
 
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Zazz said:
She seems nicer. But I get the feeling that non-assist Pinion just was sorta there and it was several limited by a very demanding input that had no reward for performing said input.

I had secretly hoped it would've ended up like a sort roll move that hit multiple times modeled after the most frightening enemy in Dark Souls: The Wheel Skeleton. But that is perhaps too terrifying.
I totally would play PW if there was a 2spooky wheel skellington move, just in hopes I could could trigger somebody's ptsd.
 
Dime_x said:
Painwheel still has weaknesses, but right now she seems like a true jack of all trades character. I cant really think of any place that she is now exceptionally weak.
What about her projectiles? I use them as a way to get into the opponent's face, but they're really slow as hell. ESPECIALLY the fully charged version (unless I'm using Hatred Install, which I wish would last longer on full health)
 
WrestlerGuile said:
What about her projectiles? I use them as a way to get into the opponent's face, but they're really slow as hell. ESPECIALLY the fully charged version (unless I'm using Hatred Install, which I wish would last longer on full health)

I was going to reply to this earlier... But i forgot... Sorry about that.

Painwheels projectiles:

In earlier versions where pw was less powerful i was all for buffed stingers of some sort. But now?

They are great on this character.

I use 4 versions of painwheels stingers in different situations:

Fully charged hp stingers:

When i have a character incoming they can expect to be locked down by my stingers and then further locked down by my assist as they land. This is a GREAT way for me to put the opponent exactly where i want them to be and i dont need any complicated ranging or timing to make it work.

Lvl1 mp and hp stingers:

Mp to cover the ground while im in the air so i can concentrate on air to airing my opponent or spacing them out to be in a space i prefer and they dont.

Hp stinger to force them to stay on the ground and let me pressure them with my air to ground j.mp. If they jumped though, now they are blocking my stinger or getting hit by it which is auto pressure for me, or they are jumping over it/avoiding it by corner up backing which also works out in my favor.

Fully charged mp stingers:


In some combos i use these just for damage.


Non used stingers:

Lvl2 stingers:

Lvl 2 mp stingers are VERY fast. But with the way this game plays, they are weak because they are to fast to cover space well and to low. Pw cant follow them in and cant do much else with them. Esoteric uses for shutting down some fireball wars or to beat armor... But good luck charging them in a fireball wars or when someone is thinking of armor charging you.

Lvl2 hp stingers:

Dont cover an important enough part of the screen for the charge time required, very easy to superjump over OR dash under in reaction unlike the lvl 1 stingers that allow pw to set up spacings to beat out those options.



So yeah all in all her stingers are REALLY REALLY good. Because she has them in as powerful a form as she is right now.


Think of it like this:

Take bella and give her painwheels stingers on point... Pretty huge buff for bella dont you think? Its because bella is already a complete character and so giving her some new moves that directly hit some of her weaknesses would be crazy.

Now think of the fact that painwheel usually doesnt even need her stingers to win... And yet has very strong versions of them on call whenever she wants them... THATS POWERFUL on a character that doesnt even really need these moves in the first place.

Her old self may have actually needed stingers to help out her neutral and stuff and at that time a further buff to stingers would have been warranted. But now that her neutral and resets and mixup game have all been buffed her stingers are just a really really nice icing on the cake.

At this point, in the beta they almost feel winmore.
 
I don't know about her being the absolute strongest in the beta right now, but i can agree that she's a lot better with the flight speed change. Taluda pretty much covered my thoughts about her right now
 
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Painwheel is invincible during level 3, once it connects

It's pretty sweet
 
@FakeangeL the play symbol on the right means it tried to PBGC into whatever recording you have it set to. Since you made it push block.

Probably stopped blocking to input whatever it was.
 
then you should probably explain what your video is trying to show rather than just saying "the fuck is this?"
 
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dMags said:
then you should probably explain what your video is trying to show rather than just saying "the fuck is this?"
Someone on the IRC claimed that the end of PWs Lv3 is unblockable
As in, the starting part hits something on the screen (Lenny, an Assist), then PW zooms further and one can't block the later hits, as they connect with the point

I have been completely unable to reproduce this, but Fakeangel thought he did it (has the Dummy on Block-Always, but Dummy got hit).
- But the dummy is just getting hit there due to trying to play something back.
 
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Hey guys I was wondering if any of you run into the problem of 2LK max range not combing into 2MK I seem to get this very consistently when I get a hit and was wondering if others had the same problem I do. If there are ways around it (other than memorizing what max range 2LK is because the max range of 2LK and 2MK is by like the tiniest pixels) or if I just suck I would really like to know.
 
Is painwheels current beta flight supposed to be the same as retail right now? Because they are different.

I thought pw was supposed to be reverted back to retail flight in the beta after the superjump tests...
 
Dime_x said:
Is painwheels current beta flight supposed to be the same as retail right now? Because they are different.

I thought pw was supposed to be reverted back to retail flight in the beta after the superjump tests...

It is still a little faster forward and down I believe which I think is a little give for losing flight speed in HI.

I think height was reduced though.
 
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Dime_x said:
Is painwheels current beta flight supposed to be the same as retail right now? Because they are different.

I thought pw was supposed to be reverted back to retail flight in the beta after the superjump tests...

Some miscommunication happened down the road, but it was only PW's max flight height that got reverted after superjump tests. She still has her gdlk flight speed in beta.
 
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If comparing beta to retail then the flight height thing is wrong. I dont know about the speed but in retail you can perform this test to easily see at least one difference between beta and retail flight heights:

Get to max idle flight height in beta, then press up. Youll notice that pw goes up... Eclipsing her max flight height. If however you turn on retail and try to do this it doesnt work.

This has rather big ramifications.

It gives pw extra range on her fly j.mp and makes fly j.mp hit higher up in the air when used from up forward.


My point is this:

Im not sure pw deserves this buff. Shes already strong and i dont want her braindead. If it is as mike z planned then so be it, but if its an oversight we need to let it be known.
 
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