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Painwheel MU Thread

Yeah, charged j.hp loses to all flavors of Beat Extend... quickly enough too that you couldn't Thresher on reaction.

And seconding Dime. lk.buer in the first string adds like 30 damage. No real reason to do it if you don't want to. Dime and I think that the downsides outweigh the upside (the 30 damage). Your mileage may vary.

@Dime_x

I'll check that out. A BB burstbait is exactly what I'm interested in. I'll look to see if I can't find any BB combos too. I know the MF forum is sitting on like a 9k or so damage combo just for BB midscreen which wouldn't be terrible. He's just too damn risky to reset.
 
Ah, I see. I've never seen that discussion topic in other threads, but I can see how it would be good to have a routine down that works all the time without getting messed up by a short hit-confirmation time. However, I actually have my own method of getting around this without ejecting the L Buer. It kills the scaling on hit a little bit (unless I recognize the hits early), but I generally use c.MP instead of c.MK during my pressure string. It gives me time to recognize exactly what my move is hitting, so I can adjust for happy birthdays, or if my move is even hitting something or is just being blocked. It also gives me time, if the move is being blocked, to call an assist, go for c.HK, or what-have-you. Being a multi-hit move, it naturally beats push-block, but I can further mix-up the opponent by choosing when exactly to fly-cancel out of it. Also, c. MP has that armor while c.MK doesn't for baiting/parrying stuff and the like. I just like to always get that first L Buer if I can because it adds on about an extra 1k of damage after scaling. However, that is just my personal preference and after c.MK becomes a low (if that's actually happening), there will be much more reason for me to use c.MK instead of c.MP, so I might as well get used to comboing while omitting the first buer.....

Edit: It really only adds 30? O_o Do you mean the total damage of the combo with the first buer included vs the total damage with the buer excluded?
 
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@bubbaking

I dont like using multihits during my ground confirms because they are pbgc bait. Your mileage may vary of course, but when i play against multihit confirms like filia cr.mk... I make sure to punish via pbgc almost everytime.

@Spencer.

Dude... I put up those burst baits a long time ago. No one should be disrespecting painwheels resets with mashes as a go to anymore.

Learn them. They are good.
 
@Spencer

Sorry, i just checked the combo out and the burst setup isnt what i said its:


Lk buer xx fly upforward j.lp,j.lk, land, upback j.lk.

Sorry... Ive got a lot of info and most is character specific so i get shit wring after not having played for awhile.
 
@Dime_x

That works better for me actually. That's a pretty normal chain in my combos.

@bubbaking

What's your damage? I try not to use any of PWs multihits early. Hell, I try and reset super fast if I confirm off of a j.mp/j.hp/j.hk because the scaling adds up fast and you'll feed meter while getting almost nothing in return.

I use c.mp in my full bnb, but it is always toward the end of the combo (multihits are better than single hits at max scaling).

For a blockstring, I like c.lk > c.mk because you won't get pushblocked and you can flight cancel into a fast overhead which will catch people trying to pushblock.
 
@Dime_x Well, that's why you gotta make sure to vary the timing of when you fly-cancel out of c.MP. Sometimes you go up after 2 hits, sometimes you go up after 4, etc. Sometimes, you also go for charged c.HP (which beats out a lot of mash supers) or for c.HK, y'know?

@Spencer Yeah, my BnB also uses c.MP near the end of it.

My regular BnB does a little over 7.1k.
BnB w/ c.MP at beginning does 6.5k.
BnB with 1st buer removed does a little under 7k.

Hmmm, yeah, I guess 100 damage isn't really much to fuss over in return for a more universal type of confirm.
 
My bnb with lk.buer in first chain: 7636
Without: 7616

20 damage. If it works for you and you like it, I'd keep on.

I prefer my way because I'm a crotchety old man stuck in his ways, plus it is easier to confirm when I catch an assist (my brain doesn't have to work quite as fast to adjust the rest of my normal combo into the "time to fuck up the assist" combo).
 
I still dont see why you guys only consider full combo damage
 
CaioLugon said:
I still dont see why you guys only consider full combo damage
It's probably the same reason why you guys don't consider the lack of range on early buer starters along with all the other things we've mentioned.
 
Dime_x said:
It's probably the same reason why you guys don't consider the lack of range on early buer starters along with all the other things we've mentioned.
The range on L buer is already better than the range of some character's most common starters, and even if they're out of range you can do M buer instead and get a great carry that can be canceled into super and dhc to a full combo depending on your team.

The only reason I see to use that is to convert your happy birthdays more easily and IMO that's absolutely not worth it when you can learn both paths and just switch when necessary.
 
CaioLugon said:
The range on L buer is already better than the range of some character's most common starters


This is the kind of reasoning that i was talking about in my last post... Which you seem to be not noticing the hypocritical nature of.

If i have to spell it out... Both sides of the argument... That is.. The side im on and the side you are on, respectively, are ignoring parts of each other's arguments and using things which matter not, to bolster their side. Like lk buer having more range than other characters starters...means literally nothing. Other characters have command grabs with more range than painwheels cr.lk, other characters have airdashes to make for super easy burst baits, other characters before the newest patch have 2 lows in conjunction with each other.

Other characters have really good runs or dashes with which to establish a closer proximity on average than painwheel, other characters have much faster cr.lk's


See how none of that matters though? Its because we are talking about painwheel, not other characters.

So, we can ignore the miniscule damage differential later on in a combo for our starter, and you can ignore the range differential for your combo... They are one in the same... People ignoring the other peoples arguments because those arguments dont mean much to the respective parties. Like i and spencer said, it is almost completely preferential which one you use.

Yes you can use the argument that that damage is much bigger across the start of the combo... But i for one dont reset that early, nor do i reset early much, even when i do. And i could always just go for the lk buer starter at times when i want to reset early... And still have a less convoluted starter than just going lk buer by rote early.


Both sides ignore the others arguments for basically the same reasons. It is preferential, leave it at that and move on.
 
Two chains (c.lk > c.mk > s.hp) ending in lk.buer

w/ buer on the first chain: 4371
w/o buer on the first chain: 4100
Difference: ~300

The only time the damage difference is significant is right after it lands, so if you are looking to do one chain, use the buer. Of course, if you are looking to reset even earlier, I'd generally recommend going lp.nails instead of buer because it gives you more options (a personal favorite of mine is j.mp xx fly > reset). But even canceling from s.hp is often better than canceling at lk.buer as it leaves you closer (again more/easier options)

You are correct though, you can mk.buer > DC > DHC and get a combo... but PW's meter gain is one of, if not the, worst in the entire game.

So if you feel the extra damage is worth it, take it. I don't, particularly. To me the cons outweigh the pros of using it. Also, using your last bit. If I am doing a hyper short chain, I generally do use it... just not on jump-in.

But seriously... can we consider buer meter buffs? MF rekka does 9.1(x3) and can be done twice in one combo if you want to give up damage. PW's buers give 7.6 and is used 3 times on average per bnb and upwards to about 6(?) in specific cases (corner/HI). And those special cases could be easily fixed (keep meter gain on hk.buer since that is the buer that is abused in both cases). Adding to that is that her most common jump-ins/reset options scale her meter gain incredibly fast. A little meter love I think is about all that is needed to bring her into the lime light as a solid upper tier point.
 
Dime_x said:
...
dude, we're not ignoring arguments, it's just a matter of what's "better" on the starting chain, since range and damage are not directly related we get stuck in this stalemate...

but anyway, all i'm saying is that *I* find it better to use buer early because it adds a lot of damage and stocks on it much faster, if you prefer to have then that's what you should go for! do what you think makes your game work the best dude



also sorry if my comments sounded a bit mean, internet talk is hard ;_;
 
They ARE directly related. And as far as what's better... I can tell you whether you believe me or not that the range difference is REAL and affects my gameplay. I know it does because even using the starter that i use that has MORE RANGE than the starter that you use, i STILL have range problems where i have to adjust in order to not miss my combo. If i were using buer starter it would be MUCH worse.

And yeah, switching to mk buer is a terrible try. I wouldnt ever do that. I have different better ways to stretch the range of my confirms and needing to use another range stretcher when i know that lk buer wont work... Is to much work for to little gain for me, personally.


But yeah, if you are using mk buer as a midscreen range extender you are leaving HUGE amounts of damage on the floor.

I will just say its preferential, even though on paper i feel like fly starter absolutely shits all over buer starter.

But thats me and im over the argument either way.
 
I think the only thing I take exception to is the "adds a lot of damage" statement

. It adds about as much damage as a jab in best case scenario. It adds a negligible amount at full scaling.

The only time it adds an appreciable amount of damage is if you are resetting after the first chain.
 
I think I can safely say that the one MU I have the absolute most trouble with now is Peacock. I understand that she has a certain blind-spot that can be taken advantage of with a well-positioned jump-in, but getting to that certain position is so hard with all the projectiles on the screen and once I'm there, Peacock either teleports away or calls an assist that covers that area. I am tempted to just raw tag out to another character the moment I see a point Peacock on the other person's team. What do? :(
 
JennyCage said:
This might be a slight tangent... but I ask in the spirit of the thread title rather than the OP. Are Filia's near instant double overheads and crossups reactable? I played some very strong Filia's lately (GiantKingTurtle, some asian Filias) and I wasn't able to react, especially to the crossups. I tried using standing LP to jab the Filias out of their hops, but it wasn't working. ST.MP on Painwheel worked alright, but I could only do it on prediction, not reaction.


Filias iad jhp is slightly reactable offline. Her double overheads and crossups are not though. Generally speaking filias overheads have to be preemptively beaten.

With a character like parasoul its pretty easy by doing things like her cr.mp and her fireball and her st.lp and certain tear patterns.


With painwheel, its harder. You generally want to use j.mp to zone out filia and not let her get into her iad range.


On the ground though you do have a very good option against solo filia which is painwheels st.mk which is a very very VERY good preemptive anti air against filias instant air dash attacks.

Just throw the st.mk out there and then cancel it into flight on wiff or contact and then zone with fly and j.mp/j.mk/j.hk


Filia is manageable at neutral because of painwheels flight and j.mp but once filia is in its basically over for most characters, painwheel included.


Other things you can try on the ground when st.mk is to slow:

St.mp armor
Chicken block filias iad approach then pushblock her and then thresher her next iad.
 
You're risking a hell of a cross-up though.

She's manageable if she's >= half a screen away.

She's awful if she's close than that.

Her approaches all have risks you can exploit at range, but once she hits you with almost anything (even if that "hit" is a block), you're now in mix-up hell.
 
I think both of those hit too low to the ground and IAD JHK will blow you up.
If Filia hits you once you have a rough dice roll coming up and you should prepare to lose to the character.
Sitting on the ground charging 5HP or 2HK is just needlessly risky IMO? Just fly around and zone with JMP and JHP + Assist calls.
If she challenges you at the wrong time you can thresher and combo.
Don't let her mash Gregor and make her block the resets.
 
Yep, like i said. J.mp zoning and st.mk on the ground and st.mp charge.

And as skarmand said use your assists to help and to confirm combos while shes trying to get in. Filia literally cant do anything from far away so she has to approach. Painwheel having a fireball doesnt have to approach unprotected so the onus is always on filia to advance and painwheel to backaway.
 
Oh, that reminds me! I actually have had nearly no problem at all with Filias online because I've adopted the campiest strategy you'll ever see. Generally, the moment the match starts, I call assist while I backdash and then throw out fully charged nails. Then I just keep throwing out fully charged nails, alternating randomly between MP and HP while calling out LnL (or the occasional H. Bomber if Double is on the team and Bella has some damage), but I'm always ready to cancel into flight if things get a little risky. If Para's on the team (I swap her with Double for the mid position on a whim), then she just makes it easy to cover myself with Pillar after the obstacle course has been traversed. This strategy has proven extremely effective against Filia more than any other character.

I know it's cheap and it's not exactly the most fun way to play, but hey, I do what I gotta do when I want to win. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This strategy also has the added benefit of beating out pretty much all the assists, including the heavily armored ones, especially if I use HP. Funnily enough, as long as I get my assist to absorb some hits for me, this strategy also works against Fukua and Para. It generally works fairly well against everyone that isn't Peacock (more reason that I have super trouble with that char). I've managed to take out people I felt were much better than me using this tactic, and I can transition to a different style at any point, so it's more of a temporary phase where I tack on as much free damage and build as much easy meter as I can while I piss you off. However, a lot of the time, I've managed to take out really big chunks of health or just win before I have to fight for real. :p
 
Para, you can out zone if you get the momentum. Once she calls soldier though, you're back to square one. I'd be curious to see a match vs a Fukua since she should be able to jump over all nails and pressure you with an air-dart.

PWs zone is actually pretty solid, so long as she doesn't have to do something else (like jump or block). PW zone works super well against PW too, btw.
 
Spencer said:
I'd be curious to see a match vs a Fukua since she should be able to jump over all nails and pressure you with an air-dart.
I had a match with a Fukua today and my h nail cancelled out her air fireballs. No one was getting anywhere so she used different fireballs.
 
Yeah, that's how it is during most of my vs Fukua matches too. At least one nail hits the fireball and the rest go and hit Fukua. Even if she uses different fireballs, M Nails counter most of them. H Nails counter the air variant. However, the problem comes when she decides to blow some meter and just throw out the fireball super. I'm usually lucky and manage to get an assist to take that (although it really hurts >_< ), but I can only imagine that would be an even bigger problem with some other chars. Luckily, Filia lacks such supers, which is prob part of the reason why I've had the most success with camping Filia out.

As for Para's soldier, H nail can hit her over that, but yeah, for the most part, it does a good job blocking her. However, my own assist basically acts as my own 'soldier'. :p
 
Anyone have vid of themselves using this strat?
 
With her being close, anybody care to discuss the Painwheel's match-up with Eliza? I can only guess since I haven't been able to fight against a lot of Elizas. Eliza has some good horizontal air attacks with a single jump and decent airdash. Painwheel has the more disjointed air moves and armor. I've no idea on sekhmet in neutral. Anything you noticed in this match-up?
 
Beur is probably the best thing you have vs Sek from what I've seen. Can use it at anytime to punish sek and get a full combo off it
 
Hover above Sekh's head and when she jumps up at you use HK buer or Thresher.
I don't think Sekh can even hit Painwheel if she holds up. You can probably drain her of all her meter and punish if she tries to recall.

Someone test if JHP hits PW holding up
I know Mp doesn't.
 
yeah j.hp does hit her, j.lp does too. j.mp definitely doesn't, even with superjump, as you noted

edit: made stupid edits because little things bother me
 
I also meant to include sekhmet call. All of sekhmet air attacks look to be very bad against Painwheel.
 
Who uses sek outside of combos...
 
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Sek is more scary on jump-ins... I've not played someone that has Sek just sitting there at neutral (spoiler alert: fly to the top corner and watch the meter drain).
 
Spencer said:
Sek is more scary on jump-ins... I've not played someone that has Sek just sitting there at neutral (spoiler alert: fly to the top corner and watch the meter drain).
try something out for me.

as PW camp near eliza's anchor and let the meter drain. once you see sekmet scutter towards the anchor you can prolly punish REAL REAL GOOD
 
What I'm really interested in is Eliza in general vs Painwheel.
 
Dreamepitaph said:
try something out for me.

as PW camp near eliza's anchor and let the meter drain. once you see sekmet scutter towards the anchor you can prolly punish REAL REAL GOOD

I'll see about booting it up. I've not played in a while (been focusing a bit on SF and BB).

The games I've played, PW > Sek at neutral. Sek is strongest used in combos and as a punish for predictable jump-ins.
 
Triblue said:
Painwheel has the more disjointed air moves and armor.
I was almost certain that Eliza was the one with more disjoint...

Edit: I honestly think Eliza slightly wins this one or goes even with us at neutral, though. I don't know where all this Sekhmet talk sprung up, because she honestly doesn't need her. Eliza has huge aerial hitboxes which, when combined with her airdash, should give us a pretty hard time. Then she's got Horus divekick to call us out on our fly and Albus projectile to attack through (and absorb) our full-screen nails to knock us down. She is pretty slow, so being pressured by her doesn't seem terrible. She doesn't seem to have great grounded AA moves, but I would say that she completely wins the air-to-air exchange. I'm not really sure how powerful her reversal capabilities are. She has an invincible DP, which can be JC'd on hit, and her Sekhmet level 1, but those are both grounded options. In the air though, I think she can pop out Sekhmet, so that may help her defend against air resets. These are my opinions on the MU.

Question: Does Eliza's c.HK only absorb low hits? Does it absorb sweeps?
 
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bubbaking said:
I was almost certain that Eliza was the one with more disjoint...

Edit: I honestly think Eliza slightly wins this one or goes even with us at neutral, though. I don't know where all this Sekhmet talk sprung up, because she honestly doesn't need her. Eliza has huge aerial hitboxes which, when combined with her airdash, should give us a pretty hard time. Then she's got Horus divekick to call us out on our fly and Albus projectile to attack through (and absorb) our full-screen nails to knock us down. She is pretty slow, so being pressured by her doesn't seem terrible. She doesn't seem to have great grounded AA moves, but I would say that she completely wins the air-to-air exchange. I'm not really sure how powerful her reversal capabilities are. She has an invincible DP, which can be JC'd on hit, and her Sekhmet level 1, but those are both grounded options. In the air though, I think she can pop out Sekhmet, so that may help her defend against air resets. These are my opinions on the MU.

Question: Does Eliza's c.HK only absorb low hits? Does it absorb sweeps?
Have you checked Elizas hitboxes since they were actually made somewhat proper, her aerial "priority" is pretty much the worst, all she's got is size
s.MP is an excellent anti-air move though

I don't play either character, but on paper it seems like Painwheel should be able to put up a fight against Sekhmet if she doesn't get too intimidated, with multihits locking Sek in place, the ability to armor through most of her moves, and buer being buer
 
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