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Personal Analysis of Solo, Duo and Trio

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Latest version of the ratios.

For total health:
Solo has a bit more net health than duo (+623 health, 2.8% difference) and trio (+715 health, 2.5% difference) , but trio has a bit more net health than duo (+110 health, 0.33% difference).

Larger team sizes have a higher net health potential than smaller team sizes by virtue of red health.

Health per character:
Solos clearly outclass any other ratio in terms of health per character and the smaller the team size, the less damage you need to do to kill a character from an equal or greater team size.

Damage limits by virtue of dividing total health among multiple characters isn't as much of an argument with undizzy normalizing combos in general, so that's an indirect slight buff to solos, there.


I'm not sure how meter scales with regards to team size, however.

Assist lockout is another thing to consider, but it affects both duo and trio equally. You tap an assist and everything is locked out for that time, but you don't die as hard as trio if you get double snapped.

Just wanted to throw this up here.
 
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Shouldn't have to ask people to stop being off topic about the same thing more than twice.
 
worldjem said:
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Sorry if this is a dumb question but why does the damage for each net health column default to 100%?
 
Because.. that's what the Net Health IS? Net Health is trying to show "How much life do you actually have if we take Damage Ratios out?"
3v3 is 16445 Life, 130% Damage taken ; 16445/1.3 = 12650 ; So in an imaginary world where there was no Damage increment based on Team Sizes (= Damage: 100%), you'd have 12650 life.
 
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Honestly I feel that 3<2<1 isn't entirely true. Solo is still at the bottom of the pile (imo) but trios and duos are pretty well balanced; you get enough extras off of a hit that the ever so slight reduction on the frequency of hits (since you can still fish hits off of a lockdown or DP assist as a duo) isn't too bad, whereas with trio you can net up someone with less tools to fill in for what they're lacking (Val with Updo and Butt Thrust, for example).

Solo though? Nah.

It's easily explained with something I do recall reading Mike talk about when referring to characters having varying health quantities (I'll look it up after I post this and edit in the source when I find it couldn't find it so take what I said with a pinch of salt). He said that a bad character can be given lots of health, but that won't make it a good character, that'll just be a bad character that takes longer to beat up. I feel that it's pretty much the same with solos, you strip them of some of the most useful tools in the game (assists, healing, DHCs, alpha counters) and give them an attack and defense advantage which, at the end of the day, is just giving more health to the solo and less health to the team.
 
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worldjem said:
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Wow, Duos are *really* terrible. 2v3, you have a net *disadvantage* in HP?!?! Holy crap!

And, yeah, red life being what it is means that if you feel comfortable at all with a character, and you have less than three, you should add them to your team. In 3v1, you have a 700 HP disadvantage total; that's roughly one HP/HK. Factor in red life, and really, you're at a life *advantage* when you play a larger team.
 
DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
Honestly I feel that 3<2<1 isn't entirely true. Solo is still at the bottom of the pile (imo) but trios and duos are pretty well balanced.

Solos will always be worse than teams because solo doesn't have access to the options that teams get.

Teams have alpha counter, red health, tagging, and assists, which help in defense and neutral way more than anything a single character can do alone. It's a much bigger leap going from solo to duo than going from duo to trio because the options don't change, you just get more choices for the options you have.
 
As a solo player, I think the problem with solos isn't the benefits given to teams, but rather the team's access to a handful of assists.

I don't mean to turn this into an anti-invuln assist topic, but they seem to be the major problem as the typical response to an invuln assist is an assist.

The rest of it seems actually quite balanced as far as health (to include recoverable health), damage, and other assists.
 
worldjem said:
Teams have alpha counter, red health, tagging, and assists, which help in defense and neutral way more than anything a single character can do alone.
On the other hand, teams have to deal with snapbacks, incoming mixups, double snaps/happy birthdays, and assists getting locked out/just plain beat on. So for solos, less tools comes less problems to ruin their day. I dunno if those cons evenly outweight the pros, but it's important to keep in mind when doing comparisons between team sizes, I think.
 
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Pikmario said:
On the other hand, teams have to deal with snapbacks, incoming mixups, double snaps/happy birthdays, and assists getting locked out/just plain beat on. So for solos, less tools comes less problems to ruin their day. I dunno if those cons evenly outweight the pros, but it's important to keep in mind when doing comparisons between team sizes, I think.
Those cons *clearly* don't outweigh the pros.

Incoming mixup? Ok, you know when the reset is coming. If it weren't for the character dying forcing a stop to the combo, they could have continued the combo for more damage or done the reset at any time with no warning.

Snapback? Ok, so there's a tool to *partially* mitigate the red life advantage, at the cost of meter. Partially.

Double snapps/happy birthdays/assist lock out/assist damage? Those only happen if the person running a team chooses to allow them by calling the assist.

Look at the life totals on that chart linked earlier. They're close at every ratio, and in the case of 2v3, the 3-size team effectively has more total health.

Yeah, threes have a HUGE advantage over twos, who in turn have a HUGE advantage over solo.

Not that I think this is a bad thing, mind you. If the ratios were truly "balanced", there'd be no reason to not play Solo. But all of the "cons" of running teams barely even start to put a scratch into all of the pros.
 
Cynical said:
Incoming mixup? Ok, you know when the reset is coming. If it weren't for the character dying forcing a stop to the combo, they could have continued the combo for more damage or done the reset at any time with no warning.

No, that's not quite right. When you are getting hit, your opponent can go for a reset, but every character has reset points that make it easier to see them coming. You also have an easier time of handling it, and if you successfully defend things most likely return to a even neutral. Additionally, if they are laying on the pressure too thick you can threaten with a mash. Not every character can do anything at all on incoming. If you didn't mash super and eat a punish, you block, are forced to land, then have to block high or low or tech or jump, you pushblock if you had to block, then you still have to deal with having your back to the corner. I hate dealing with incoming pressure, blocking and neutraling is much easier.

Also, don't know where you got the "because they can reset incoming doesn't matter". At some point, the attacker has to end their combo, and not in a reset. It usually ends in a knockdown or a failed burst bait. As a solo, that's always how the combo ends after a reset or two. How is that equal to "instead of returning to neutral your character died and you have to deal with another mixup with a reduced undizzy bar on top of losing an assist"?

Double snapps/happy birthdays/assist lock out/assist damage? Those only happen if the person running a team chooses to allow them by calling the assist.
In order to exert the pressure and benefits awarded to you by using a team you have to call assists. You can reduce the number of times you get that assist injured by being good, but you can't always call it at safe times. Don't know why you think that every time someone gets their assist tagged (cause even hitting it with a c.lk or something causes lockout) it's because the team decided to allow it to happen.

Not that I think this is a bad thing, mind you. If the ratios were truly "balanced", there'd be no reason to not play Solo. But all of the "cons" of running teams barely even start to put a scratch into all of the pros.
I should try and stress this point more often. But there's also the psychological advantage solos have over teams. It isn't fun watching one of your characters get TOD'd when you feel like your chipping away at a mountain. The added stress of having a teammate evaporate makes it harder to deal with the incoming pressure, making it likely that the second, if not final, member of your team dies. At this point it's not uncommon to subconsciously give up and let yourself be consumed by the beast that was not 15 seconds ago a whimpering and wounded rabbit cowering underneath your pressure.
 
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@Zidiane
There is a similiar psychological stress on solos though.

Finally kill that Peacock that just chipped half of your life a way and you get to think "Jesus... I've got to do it again... (and again in some cases)."
 
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Maybe for some solos. But I don't ever feel that pressure oddly. What always goes through my head is "LETS FUCKIN GO I GOT THE HIT YOU LOSE"

Edit: Also, assuming that both solos and teams feel mental pressure, I would bring up the rate at which the pressure is applied. You can slowly lift 150 pounds of someone piling on 5 pounds at a time, but to have someone drop 150 pounds on you in a second can tear something. The suddenness of losing when you were a second ago winning is hard to deal with, and that also builds in the team players mind even when he's winning, knowing that if he messes up that can happen within a handful of seconds.
 
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Lol zid doesnt feel that pressure cause... Yo, when your bella has just got shat on for 3/4 life..
You still got your lvl3.


After he gets his lvl3 blocked though? Yeah, probably feeling that pressure mount up.
 
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Bella's thinking... two left? That's like 6 or 7 hits!
 
Zidiane said:
No, that's not quite right. When you are getting hit, your opponent can go for a reset, but every character has reset points that make it easier to see them coming. You also have an easier time of handling it, and if you successfully defend things most likely return to a even neutral. Additionally, if they are laying on the pressure too thick you can threaten with a mash. Not every character can do anything at all on incoming. If you didn't mash super and eat a punish, you block, are forced to land, then have to block high or low or tech or jump, you pushblock if you had to block, then you still have to deal with having your back to the corner. I hate dealing with incoming pressure, blocking and neutraling is much easier.
Anyone who can threaten a mash on an air reset can threaten a mashed super on incoming.

And you only have to deal with having your back to the corner if your previous character died in the corner. In which case you were already in the corner anyways.

In order to exert the pressure and benefits awarded to you by using a team you have to call assists. You can reduce the number of times you get that assist injured by being good, but you can't always call it at safe times. Don't know why you think that every time someone gets their assist tagged (cause even hitting it with a c.lk or something causes lockout) it's because the team decided to allow it to happen.
Assists aren't the only benefit from a larger team.

Look at the chart that was posted upthread again. Particularly, look at the fourth column. That's the part of the chart that's important.

The life advantage that small teams have, even when normalized for their increased damage, is tiny. Hell, 2v3 is at a life disadvantage. Factor in "combo" DHCs and red life, and teams actually have an advantage before assists, alpha counters, and "safety" DHCs even enter the equation!

I should try and stress this point more often. But there's also the psychological advantage solos have over teams. It isn't fun watching one of your characters get TOD'd when you feel like your chipping away at a mountain.
That "mountain" is barely any bigger than a 3-character team.

Plus, teams have the massive advantage of forcing your opponent to deal with an entirely different "look" at multiple times during the course of the game.
 
Dime_x said:
After he gets his lvl3 blocked though? Yeah, probably feeling that pressure mount up.
lol. bella's lvl 3 is plus on block. In the most common instance to use it, with your back to the corner, even if they pushblock it you get a mixup. So... "Oh, great, I block The Zidian-fuck I got grabbed! He can do that? This game's fucking broken."

That's not at all why I don't feel pressure, but it helps me out if you believe it. It makes it harder for you to deal with me if you believe I rely on lvl 3.

Cynical said:
Anyone who can threaten a mash on an air reset can threaten a mashed super on incoming.
Except that's only two characters.

And you only have to deal with having your back to the corner if your previous character died in the corner. In which case you were already in the corner anyways.
Not taking into account most combos have corner carry. I finish every killing combo I can with j.hp or Titan Knuckle for maximum corner push. Point characters more often than not die in the corner.

Assists aren't the only benefit from a larger team.
You said "Double snapps/happy birthdays/assist lock out/assist damage? Those only happen if the person running a team chooses to allow them by calling the assist." I didn't say assists were the only benefits, I was addressing that comment.

That "mountain" is barely any bigger than a 3-character team.
It's not, but it sure as hell feels like it when it takes you 30 seconds to get that character sweating, don't it?
 
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Red life always seemed silly to me. Like it exists for legacy purposes or something. Is there legitimate reason for it?

I know @blufang (I think it was you) once suggested solo player life gain a la VS. Not saying it should be implemented, but it seems like it would be as arbitrary as red life.

For anyone in the know, does a team using DHC have the ability to output more damage than solo?
 
Spencer said:
Red life always seemed silly to me. Like it exists for legacy purposes or something. Is there legitimate reason for it?

Why wouldn't it? If you're asking for a reason it's interesting, it's a cool when it encourages one side to be the aggressor and one the defender (the guy who has bleeding assists has an incentive to play defensive/runaway while they heal). It also creates variations in decision making about assist calls and DHCs.

DHCs reset damage scaling to IIRC 70%, so they're pretty much always going to be more efficient for pure conversion of meter to damage.
 
Zidiane said:
Except that's only two characters.
Four.

Admittedly, two of those have kinda shitty air supers for reversal (especially Val, lol). But they can work (especially against solos, who can't use an assist to force a block and hide behind it until they see the incoming character in blockstun).

You said "Double snapps/happy birthdays/assist lock out/assist damage? Those only happen if the person running a team chooses to allow them by calling the assist." I didn't say assists were the only benefits, I was addressing that comment.
Yeah, but you did say that teams needed to call assist to access their advantages over solos. But, even without ever calling an assist (thus, meaning that double snaps/happy birthdays/assist damage don't exist), teams still are better than solos. And 3s are better than 2s.

It's not, but it sure as hell feels like it when it takes you 30 seconds to get that character sweating, don't it?
Honestly, I sigh a lot harder when I see a character tag out with a ton of red health and hold out long enough with a point character that I can't snap them back in than when I see a combo not do a whole lot to a solo. Big teams* are MUCH harder to fight psychologically. At least for me.

*or teams containing Peacock + invuln assist
 
Cynical said:
Four.
Filia and Double are the only ones that can really mash and beat the pressure you try and go for (and even then, you can block and punish Filia, and I know cerebella has solo setups on her to beat her out of it that are safe if she doesn't mash that keep up pressure). Against every other character, jump at them as if you are applying pressure, then double jump. Every one of their supers will flounder offering you a full punish, and if they don't you can pressure with an air attack (as solo cerebella, I use j.hk).

But, even without ever calling an assist,teams still are better than solos. And 3s are better than 2s.
Going by the health charts, solos are better than teams if you never call assist. Though I guess DHCs make a difference. That's also not taking into account matchups, or that solos have a slightly greater chance of killing the team in 3 hits than the team does. Additionally, the majority of characters in the game are only as good as they are because of their assist or assists they give. You pick a team of peacock/squigly/valentine without using assists and you won't have a good time against a solo Fortune or Bella, who do much better on their own. (This is all added to my earlier mentions of incoming mixups)

Big teams are MUCH harder to fight psychologically. At least for me.
Maybe we should play sometime. I've been told that I'm hard to fight on that front.
 
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Problem is there are only a few characters that work solidly as solos. Though all are better in teams of course.

As far as pressure, it is infinitely easier to escape the corner as a team rather than a solo. DHC and assists which are options a solo doesn't have. In addition a solo can't keep an opponent in the corner as easy, just has his/her own attacks to rely on. The team player can alternate between lockdown/mix up assists and their own pressure to make it hell to escape the corner for a solo player.

Psychologically when you lose health as a team, you can tag out and the health heals. As a solo, whatever health you lose is gone forever. Also when a member of a 3 man team dies, you could go....well dumb mistake I made but I have 2 left! Then after that at least you have one left. If a solo dies he dies, you lose.

When I started I played Fortune, Squigly, Parasoul. I won much less, and I was much worse than I am now (not saying I'm good or anything), and I play solo Squigly. Yet psychologically it was infinitely more relaxed playing a team with assists to cover weaknesses, recoverable health, and to open up the opponent.

Spencer said:
Red life always seemed silly to me. Like it exists for legacy purposes or something. Is there legitimate reason for it?

I know @blufang (I think it was you) once suggested solo player life gain a la VS. Not saying it should be implemented, but it seems like it would be as arbitrary as red life.

For anyone in the know, does a team using DHC have the ability to output more damage than solo?

Yeah I thought that could be a good idea. There is red health (non recoverable), and white health (recoverable). The red health never recovers, but the white health recovers over time when you don't take damage. I thought something similar being implemented in this game would even the playing field a bit between solos and trios.

Considering trios have much more total health, and also recover their health, the discrepancy in stamina is huge. Though solos doing much more damage makes up for it somewhat, it still is grossly in the team's favor.
 
blufang said:
As far as pressure, it is infinitely easier to escape the corner as a team rather than a solo. DHC and assists which are options a solo doesn't have.
DHCing doesn't help you get out of the corner. Either the first super hit, then a solo would have escaped just as well, or the first super got blocked, then you can safe DHC but.. you're still in the corner.

Calling assists in the corner is obscenely risky due to the threat of Doublesnaps and the inability of covering your assist. It's something you have that Solos don't so it's an upside, but particularly for Duos who lose over 50% of their health on a bad guess it's .. iffy business.

blufang said:
Considering trios have much more total health
Do they?

14300 *3 = 42900
42900 /1.6 (Solo Damage Ratio) = 26813

Solos have 30k or 33k or something like that
 
Like I said, the red health just seems arbitrary and in for legacy purposes.

Obregon has a point that it is an interesting dynamic at least in theory, but in practice it doesn't really change the way the other guy plays that much. He tags out. His other character begins to regenerate life, but it doesn't affect the way he plays with his new point character (except he might not call that assist for a while).

Putting VS regen health on the active character only would have th affect Obregon mentioned, but in either case it is "whatever". It just seems arbitrary.
 
Spencer said:
Obregon has a point that it is an interesting dynamic at least in theory, but in practice it doesn't really change the way the other guy plays that much. He tags out.
.. There. How is that not a change of how the other guy plays? Do you really think he would tag without the red life?

I'll give you a base example of my team, I run Parasoul/Peacock/Filia.
I build meter with my point Parasoul, then at some point say she's on 10% life with 40% red life.
What I like doing now is to Pillar xx Bikes xx Lenny for a safe DHC to put Parasoul in the back and regain the 30% life while I'm playing Peacock/Filia.
This is risky business because it uses 2 meters and if my Peacock gets killed fast which can happen, I'll sit on a meterless Filia (not good) backed by a very low life Parasoul I don't want to call (not good at all) plus if Filia dies at some point, even if my Parasoul had the time to regen the life .. well, she still only has 40% and is free to any and all incoming mixups.
If it works out though, I essentially took 30% damage less and have the massive threat of an assist-backed Filia rather than sitting on her solo (aka 'run around like a retard and hope to snag a random hit with dumb Gregor')

If you remove red life, that entire thinking process gets tossed out of the window and I will simply never do the DHC. Why the fuck would I spend bar on 'saving' a character .. whom I then can't ever call because it dies to one hit and who will die to the same 1 hit on incoming?

♠♠♠

On the other hand, "Solos recover life too now" is nothing but an increase of their health. There's nothing you can do with it, no thinking involved, no playstyle change to accommodate for the fact. Solo Painwheels will not suddenly start with runaway via Nails xx Backwards flight to regain their life.. as it simply doesn't work.
 
blufang said:
As far as pressure, it is infinitely easier to escape the corner as a team rather than a solo. DHC and assists which are options a solo doesn't have. In addition a solo can't keep an opponent in the corner as easy, just has his/her own attacks to rely on. The team player can alternate between lockdown/mix up assists and their own pressure to make it hell to escape the corner for a solo player.
Like IsaVulpes said, calling assists with your back to the corner is asking to get double snapped. And it's actually easier to bait someone into mashing a super when they think they have a safe DHC. As bella, I don't know about everyone else, but I can do hp lnl, catch nearly any mashed reversal with mah armor, and cancel into Showstopper or something to beat it. It's also surprising to see exactly what certain characters can do solo, in terms of pressure.

Psychologically when you lose health as a team, you can tag out and the health heals. As a solo, whatever health you lose is gone forever. Also when a member of a 3 man team dies, you could go....well dumb mistake I made but I have 2 left! Then after that at least you have one left.
Sure, okay. I don't feel like continuing on that point anymore.

If a solo dies he dies, you lose.
PEOPLE_DIE_IF_THEY_ARE_KILLED.jpg


psychologically it was infinitely more relaxed playing a team with assists to cover weaknesses, recoverable health, and to open up the opponent.
I guess we're different people. I can't even comprehend how people are comfortable on a team, it's weird even having two characters, but three fragile little things is just the worst.
 
Yeah I prefer fighting trio over duo just because of how fragile they are and one mistake means one dead team member and 33.3% decrease in overall efficiency. Duo is more of a pain though because they are almost as sturdy as solo and have the luxury mechanics of what a team provides.
 
IsaVulpes said:
...

I think it does change things to an extent. But it isn't as binary as you make it out to be. Your considerations change. It turns into when to tag to keep an assist instead of when to tag so your third can rejoin the fight with almost half her life left. It doesn't become less strategic but rather different strategic.

And yes, I think solo's would change their playstyle. You can't imagine a world in which a PW installs and nail spams to get some health back?

Like I said, the strategic considerations change but they don't get eliminated. That is what I mean by arbitrary.

@Number 13
Yeah, as a solo I generally prefer going against a team of 3 as opposed to a team of 2. The extra assist can make life hell, but it is a good feeling knowing I have to get in just once.
 
Some people I face, like WingZero, will actually choose to also pick solo rather than come at me as a team.
 
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Zidiane said:
I guess we're different people. I can't even comprehend how people are comfortable on a team, it's weird even having two characters, but three fragile little things is just the worst.

Different strokes for different folks. Khaosmuffins is also a solo player right? (Or used to be?)

IsaVulpes said:
.
On the other hand, "Solos recover life too now" is nothing but an increase of their health. There's nothing you can do with it, no thinking involved, no playstyle change to accommodate for the fact. Solo Painwheels will not suddenly start with runaway via Nails xx Backwards flight to regain their life.. as it simply doesn't work.

If you've ever played Vampire Savior it makes a huge difference. When you have a ton of white damage, you are going to play much more conservative, much safer, and maybe a bit of keep away if you can, so you can recover as much of that white damage as possible. The opponent in the meantime seeing all that white damage, will usually be much more aggressive and take more chances so that damage becomes red or for a quick KO.

It would add a lot of strategy to solo play. Weather not that makes solos too strong or whatever is another matter of discussion.
 
When can I play the entire roster KOF xiii style yo
 
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IsaVulpes said:
.. you'd know that this game is not Vampire Savior.

God forbid we should consider features from other games... Thank God Skullgirls managed to come up with the concept of hitboxes, meter, and assists all on its own.
 
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Why would you give solo characters recoverable health? If you want that, play a team. No point in buffing solo life further.
 
Spencer said:
God forbid we should consider features from other games... Thank God Skullgirls managed to come up with the concept of hitboxes, meter, and assists all on its own.
You understood about 0% of my post, try again
 
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IsaVulpes said:
.. you'd know that this game is not Vampire Savior.

No, but saying it would make zero difference in Skullgirls strategy is false. Forget about simple keep away, just the way each side weighs risk and reward would change based on how much white damage the solo character has. If I'm a solo Squigly who has recently incurred a lot of white damage I may end my combo (if I won't be able to kill character) with a charged one inch punch to knock to the other side of the screen instead of going for a reset. Just one example of a nearly infinite amount of scenarios in which recoverable solo character health could change strategy.

View619 said:
Why would you give solo characters recoverable health? If you want that, play a team. No point in buffing solo life further.

Just throwing out that idea. Point is it's trio>duo>solo, some may not want solos to get better cause they want to be rewarded for learning more characters, but from a pure balance perspective ideas for buffing solos make sense.
 
IsaVulpes said:
You understood about 0% of my post, try again

There was nothing to understand. It was your typical snark with as little substance as possible thrown in for good measure.

Yes, this game is not VS (nor is it MvC, SF, or DDR), but it is utterly beside the point. You don't get to fait how Skullgirls will respond to any changes pulled from some other game oh prognosticator of prognosticators.

Point is it is an interesting thought experiment and nothing more (not exactly like any of this is on the table), but yet again you want to shit in someone's cereal simply for the sake of shitting in someone's cereal.

Let me save you the time. Yes... we, all of us, understand that this game is not *insert game of your choice here*.
 
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I understand that these are simply ideas but... let's not try for ideas that'll introduce a big change in system mechanics.
 
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