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Pokemon

Would Hail also causing a debuff to a certain type be too much of a buff?
 
Ktulu Victoria said:
What if Hail gave Ice Types passive healing?
Kind of defeats the purpose of the Ice Body Ability, but that would not be the first time that later Gen changes have made certain Abilities obsolete (looking at you Limber Electric types).

The biggest thing that Ice types need is better defensive standing. Get some more resistances and lose a Weakness or two. Also maybe give some already existing Ice Types a wider movepool, cause they almost all seem to have fairly shallow coverage. I can dream that Ice and Grass types get some changing love whenever Gen 7 happens, but I'm not counting on it.
 
Ktulu Victoria said:
Would Hail also causing a debuff to a certain type be too much of a buff?
Rain basically does that to all of fire types, and Sunshine basically does that to all of water types, so no.

(Also I think people confuse Ice type for "ice block" ice. I thought the Ice type was more of a combination of the powdery snow ice and blocky ice, kind of like ground except a little sturdier. I thought fighting types main focus was breaking very sturdy things at points so they collapse or something, like breaking rock or steel in just the right spot so they fall apart. So if a Fighting pokemon attacks an Ice type it would be flexible enough to not break completely. I was thinking that Fighting can be used against Ice, but not as a natural weakness.)
 
I see no reason Ice should take 2x damage from both rock and steel, so it should lose one of those weaknesses. Which would be more beneficial?
 
Maybe Hail could give Ice Types a passive 50% boost to Physical or Special Defense, much like how Rock types get a Sp Def boost when in a Sandstorm.
Ktulu Victoria said:
I see no reason Ice should take 2x damage from both rock and steel, so it should lose one of those weaknesses. Which would be more beneficial?
Definitely Rock. Steel may be seeing more use this Gen, but I'd rather take that over being one of the few unfortunate types that takes a beating from Stealth Rocks.
 
Ice, being frozen water, really isn't that much stronger than stone or metal unless it's thick like a fine lady's thighs
Both make sense to me, but I agree with removing the weakness to Rock
Rock don't even need that strength
 
With weaknesses to Rock removed, we still have to deal with Fire, Fighting, and Steel. Hail boosts Physical or Special Defense? Or should it boosts something like evasiveness?
 
I always thought that between rock and steel, rock had a focus on blunt attacking while steel was more sharp and precise. If the Ice types were more of a mixture of powdery snow and blocky snow than blunt rock attacks would most likely not be as effective as a steel attack going for precision.
Ktulu Victoria said:
With weaknesses to Rock removed, we still have to deal with Fire, Fighting, and Steel. Hail boosts Physical or Special Defense? Or should it boosts something like evasiveness?
Trust me, evasion is something you never want to see common in pokemon battles. If I had the choice between evasion and no buffs for Ice in hail I would honestly take no buffs. Go with a defense or special defense boost for 50% for the one that's chosen. Though it could be a ~25% increase to both if it seems balanced enough.
 
It would probably be better to pick either Physical or Special. They're already getting passive healing.
 
Ktulu Victoria said:
With weaknesses to Rock removed, we still have to deal with Fire, Fighting, and Steel. Hail boosts Physical or Special Defense? Or should it boosts something like evasiveness?
Again, there is an Ability that already serves that purpose (ntm I cannot even imagine the salt tsunami that would occur if GF gave a weather condition any form of Evasion boost. Anything new related to Evasion is bound to cause a chaotic situation among the competitive scene).

Ice is in a real tough spot, because even after removing the Rock weakness, it still leaves you with the relatively common attack types of Steel and Fire, but also Fighting (ie one of the most widespread attacking types with usage in the current game). Unless if we get rid of even more weaknesses and give it entirely new ones in its place, it is still in a tough spot.

At least Grass types could fair a lot better if they lost their Flying Weakness, but Ice is weak against some of the most common and dangerous attacking moves in the current Meta.
 
Agent York said:
Again, there is an Ability that already serves that purpose (ntm I cannot even imagine the salt tsunami that would occur if GF gave a weather condition any form of Evasion boost. Anything new related to Evasion is bound to cause a chaotic situation among the competitive scene).

That's why I want it. :PUN:
 
So...changing Ice type from
Water 1x damage --> 1/2x damage
Grass 1x damage --> 1/2x damage
Bug 1x damage --> 1/2x damage
Fighting 2x damage --> 1x damage
Rock 2x damage --> 1x damage
Steel 2x damage --> 2x damage
Fire 2x damage --> 2x damage

And keeping everything else? Fire is an incredibly overused type for attacking, and not resisting Fighting and Rock can be seen as somewhat of a hindrance due to their extreme power.
 
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Dr.Sanity said:
So...changing Ice type from
Water 1x damage --> 1/2x damage
Grass 1x damage --> 1/2x damage
Bug 1x damage --> 1/2x damage
Fighting 2x damage --> 1x damage
Rock 2x damage --> 1x damage
Steel 2x damage --> 2x damage
Fire 2x damage --> 2x damage

And keeping everything else? Fire is an incredibly overused type for attacking, and not resisting Fighting and Rock can be seen as somewhat of a hindrance due to their extreme power.
That would be beautiful, but I don't see that drastic a change happening at GF. It's definitely about how I would make it though, and this is just theory-Mon after all.
 
The types they suffer from the most are the ones that they can't receive a resistance against. Giving better coverage moves might be better than putting resistances where it isn't as needed.
 
water doing normal damage makes sense to me, honestly
I mean the liquid state IS at a higher temperature than the solid state
plus you have stuff like Scald
which is boiling hot liquid (and fuck you I know that hot water freezes faster but pokemon ain't like that)
 
Ruin said:
water doing normal damage makes sense to me, honestly
Yeah, but it would still be near the top of types changing from a neutral damage type to a resisted one, right?
 
I looked at competitive Pokemon tiers, and noticed a running trend with all ice types that were high up. They were either all suicide leaders, or had such high stats that it made their common weaknesses not as big of an issue. Really the biggest issue with the Ice type is not that it has too few resistances, but that its weaknesses are way too common for Ice types to work on anything but glass cannons. It will only really become balanced when one of its more severe weaknesses are removed. (Hopefully Fighting or Rock).
 
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I used to think that Hail did to Blizzard what Rain did to Thunder, and made it always hit. I guess that's not a thing?
 
LaCheshireZorua said:
I used to think that Hail did to Blizzard what Rain did to Thunder, and made it always hit. I guess that's not a thing?
That is actually one of the few beneficial things that Hail does in fact do.
 
Agent York said:
That is actually one of the few beneficial things that Hail does in fact do.

Oh, okay, sweet. Ice types are still pretty bad as they are right now, though.
 
But guys, we have one good ice type that isn't a legendary. Mamoswine. Are you saying you want more, you greedy bastards?
(Shut up Weavile, you don't count.)
 
Horseman said:
But guys, we have one good ice type that isn't a legendary. Mamoswine. Are you saying you want more, you greedy bastards?
Most of the reason why Mamoswine is good is because of his icicle shard and his ability thick fat, which combined with his typing makes him neutral to rock and fire. Also, Mamoswine is constantly seen with a focus sash and the move Endeavor on him, meaning that it's expected for him to lose all its health in one hit often. Can Mamoswine be used differently for offense only? Yes, but once again an ice types most effective strategy is a suicide-like lead.
 
Dr.Sanity said:
Most of the reason why Mamoswine is good is because of his icicle shard and his ability thick fat, which combined with his typing makes him neutral to rock and fire. Also, Mamoswine is constantly seen with a focus sash and the move Endeavor on him, meaning that it's expected for him to lose all its health in one hit often. Can Mamoswine be used differently for offense only? Yes, but once again an ice types most effective strategy is a suicide-like lead.
Mamoswine isn't good because of thick fat. Thick fat is an okay ability that you use for lack of something better. Being neutral to fire doesn't mean that much, especially when your bulk isn't that great. It's the fighting weakness that sucks, because everyone and their mother carries fighting coverage moves. Case in point: In diamond and pearl, he didn't have thick fat, but he still rocked.
Being neutral to rock is nice but to a sash wearer getting hit by stealth rock at all kind of defeats your purpose.
Mamoswine is good because he has stab ice shard coming off of 130 attack, stealth rock, stab earthquake, and endeavor which makes him one of the only decent users of the fear strategy.
 
One pretty big problem ice have is, it has no status effect move that guarantee will make the opponent Freeze.
We have moves like Toxic, Will o wisp, Thunder wave, Hypnosis. And of course more status moves like the powder moves, toxic spikes, sing, rest, whatever more we have. But no freaking move that will guarantee make the opponent freeze.

You just have to pray the opponent will freeze from your Ice beam!
Or why not make use of hail. Like if it hails, ice moves get powered up or, the chance the opponent will freeze rise to at least 50% (if the move has a freeze effect (Tri-attack not counting))?

btw, doesn't ice types usually have the best Sp.Defence? Or just the best stats ice type have, while it overall has bad stat?
 
+5 Necromancer said:
One pretty big problem ice have is, it has no status effect move that guarantee will make the opponent Freeze.
We have moves like Toxic, Will o wisp, Thunder wave, Hypnosis. And of course more status moves like the powder moves, toxic spikes, sing, rest, whatever more we have. But no freaking move that will guarantee make the opponent freeze.
I say that Freeze should stay as is, as a very un/fortunate and rare occurrence, considering it is arguably the most powerful status in the game. If you lack the few attacks that can thaw you out or Heal Bell/Aromatherapy on another Poke, that now leaves that Poke with only a 20% chance to unfreeze every turn. That's less of a chance given than breaking through a Para-Flinch Togekiss/Jirachi after they are set up. A Freeze can potentially last forever, while Sleep can only last a maximum of 3 turns, and Paralysis only effects you 25% of the time.

Imagine an opponent sets up a Trick Room and sends in a Mega-Abomasnow. Assuming said Abomasnow has been given a negative Speed nature, nothing outside of a Shuckle or something with Priority can "outspeed" it within the Trick Room. Mega-Abomasnow has a high Special Attack Stat of 132, and due to its constant Hail from Snow Warning, has a 100% Accuracy STAB Blizzard. Now, that is fairly scary under normal circumstances, but now under your rule, has a 60% chance to Freeze the opponent every time they are hit. Then simply imagine what I already said about the 20% chance to escape under normal circumstances, on top of that the fact that not many things will be able to take such a powerful Blizzard. I want Ice types to be better, but I'd say that that is going a bit overboard.
 
well I have the demo here
and it's pretty shitty
but I did get Ice Cube
but this may be a temporary Ice Cube due to certain factors regarding the Ice Cube i caught
so I'll probably transfer this Ice Cube over
take the Ice Cube from it
and then catch a new Ice Cube (or whatever evolves into Ice Cube)
and give that Ice Cube the Ice Cube that I took from Ice Cube
 
+5 Necromancer said:
One pretty big problem ice have is, it has no status effect move that guarantee will make the opponent Freeze.
We have moves like Toxic, Will o wisp, Thunder wave, Hypnosis. And of course more status moves like the powder moves, toxic spikes, sing, rest, whatever more we have. But no freaking move that will guarantee make the opponent freeze.

You just have to pray the opponent will freeze from your Ice beam!
Or why not make use of hail. Like if it hails, ice moves get powered up or, the chance the opponent will freeze rise to at least 50% (if the move has a freeze effect (Tri-attack not counting))?

btw, doesn't ice types usually have the best Sp.Defence? Or just the best stats ice type have, while it overall has bad stat?
So two problems:
One, sleep is objectively worse than freezing and it's so good that in competitive play you're limited to only keeping one of your opponent's pokemon asleep at a time. A guaranteed freeze move will either be banned or not have enough accuracy to be worth it.
Two, how is this the problem with ice type pokemon? Status moves don't have a thing to do with typing. Every pokemon can learn toxic, none of the best users of thunder wave are actually electric type, and many of the best users of wil-o-wisp aren't fire type. The only type that actually benefits from the near exclusivity of a status is grass with spore, and even then breloom is pretty much the only spore user. And what, do the types with no status associated with them all suck or something?
 
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Ruin said:
well I have the demo here
and it's pretty shitty
but I did get Ice Cube
but this may be a temporary Ice Cube due to certain factors regarding the Ice Cube i caught
so I'll probably transfer this Ice Cube over
take the Ice Cube from it
and then catch a new Ice Cube (or whatever evolves into Ice Cube)
and give that Ice Cube the Ice Cube that I took from Ice Cube

God dammit, the last thing I needed today was god damn ICE-CUBE-CEPTION.
 
What ice type lacks is better move>type sinergy
 
The "Freeze dry" move is IMO a must have to any ice type pokémon that can learn it.
I don't think I even need to explain why.

But I do hope there will be a ice terrain move in the future!
You know, like "Misty terrain", but ice!
 
+5 Necromancer said:
The "Freeze dry" move is IMO a must have to any ice type pokémon that can learn it.
I don't think I even need to explain why.
Freeze Dry is so good. So satisfying to OHKO Water/Grounds and Ludicolos that think they can just get a free switch on you and set up.
 
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So I was thinking about that Volcanion, the one with the Water Fire typing, and was thinking of what would happen if there was a Pokemon like it except with a Grass Fire typing.

But then I looked up Grass Fire on Google images and saw this:
6163d596d25a99c590a9575e063019dd.jpg


So a Fire/Water/Grass type? That would be a pretty interesting Pokemon right? I mean it would need to take an ability to get to a three typing but if it's a legendary I guess it could work.

(Also I already noted that its weaknesses would be Flying, Poison, and Rock, and its resistances would be Fire, 2x Steel, Water, Grass, Ice, and Fairy)
 
Dr.Sanity said:
So I was thinking about that Volcanion, the one with the Water Fire typing, and was thinking of what would happen if there was a Pokemon like it except with a Grass Fire typing.

But then I looked up Grass Fire on Google images and saw this:
6163d596d25a99c590a9575e063019dd.jpg


So a Fire/Water/Grass type? That would be a pretty interesting Pokemon right? I mean it would need to take an ability to get to a three typing but if it's a legendary I guess it could work.

(Also I already noted that its weaknesses would be Flying, Poison, and Rock, and its resistances would be Fire, 2x Steel, Water, Grass, Ice, and Fairy)
Please no triple type pokemon. Imagine doing all that math in your head every time one pops up. Not to mention all the potentially broken combinations.
 
i'd say just save something like that a legendary or some shit if it really needs to happen
i'm just waiting for Grass/Fire weed mon with signature move Disorienting Smoke
causes confusion and lowers speed sharply
and if the afflicted mon is holding a berry, they'll consume it immediately
 
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Horseman said:
Please no triple type pokemon. Imagine doing all that math in your head every time one pops up. Not to mention all the potentially broken combinations.
Well, I thought Grass Water and Fire would be the only special exception. They've always been the series' core in terms of types. Always used to explain the basics of supereffectiveness and resistances and whatever in that triangle. Plus the typing is surprisingly balanced, 1 4x resistance, 5 regular resistances, and 3 weaknesses isn't unfair.

And Ruin is right, it would just be a one time thing with a legendary if it did happen.
 
What about a Protean Kecleon? It can be Grass, Fire, and Water... y'know... just, not at the same time...
I'll go sit in the corner...
 
I've been waiting for a Grass/Fire type pokemon forever. But not just ANY grass/fire pokemon, one that would be super cheesy and punny.

Like Mega Sunflora....
 
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