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Poll: Are the Beta changes ready for prime-time?

Should the Beta IPS/undizzy/counterhit changes be implemented into the Real Game?

  • Yes! RIGHT NOW.

    Votes: 112 34.6%

  • Yes, but wait and put them in with Big Band.

    Votes: 54 16.7%

  • No. I don't like them / they need further work.

    Votes: 116 35.8%

  • I don't care. I will continue playing/avoiding the game the same amount either way.

    Votes: 42 13.0%
  • Total voters
    324
  • Poll closed .
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blufang said:
2. If Fortune is overpowered why isn't she played more? Why is Filia and Double played by near everyone including most high level players? I'd figure tournament players would all jump aboard Fortune if she was so overpowered.

There is a myth perpetrated by many, including me, that Fortune is difficult to play.

But really, you need to be a certain type of player to bring her true power out, you have to be able to call out stupidity when you see it pretty accurately and not be completely stupid yourself. She isn't overly risky, but her ability to keep you out of the sky requires at least a little bit of brain power.

Most players (like me) just slap updo on the end of their team.
 
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KhaosMuffins said:
...

I agree to an extent. I don't disagree that there is strategy using assists in a team game.

My problem is that the vast (and I mean the vast) majority of top tier players are rocking invuln assists for a reason. This is a game billed as "use any assist you want", and I think it is almost self-evident that it isn't the case. I think without question that pillar, updo, and butt make up a hugely disproportionate amount of assists. This lends to an already small cast being narrowed even further as many teams begin to look awfully similar (Mike Z actually makes a joke about this in the first Sev/Duck game).

EVO'13 finals:
Sev: Parasoul, Updo, Butt
Duck: Val, Updo, Butt
Khaos: MF
Chilldog: 'Bella, 'Cock, Updo
Winnie: Filia, Butt
TJGamer: 'Bella, 'Cock
Kenin: Parasoul, Butt
Inuchiyo: MF, Updo

The suggestion I have seen that I like the most is prevent confirms off of invuln assists. That gives an incredibly strong, invulnerable shield assist while stopping the super boring turtle, assist, confirm.
 
I do think that Updo and perhaps even Pillar assist should not be able to be confirmed into full combo as they are right now. Doublebutt I'm ok with as it has other drawbacks anyway at the moment.

Even without the confirm, Updo especially wont really be seeing much less play. Fillia is great with or without meter and easy to DHC in, a very versatile final character, has tools to deal without an assist herself and Updo would STILL serve the same purpose it does now, it just wouldn't be a hard momentum starter. It would still be one of the absolute top assists you could be pretty sure.

But it is meant to be an analogue to Psylocke assist and that is confirmable into a combo... so I'm not expecting it to change.
 
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Tomo009 said:
But it is meant to be an analogue to Psylocke assist and that is confirmable into a combo... so I'm not expecting it to change.

I've not played any of the Marvel v Capcom games, but isn't Psylocke's assist one of the most bitched about assists in the whole game with some people go as far to say she is borderline a must have on a team?

And agreed about Double butt for the most part. It is far easier to circumvent than Updo/Pillar.
 
destruction_adv said:
This is off topic but, people don't just play characters for power.

With tournament players power plays a huge role, look at just about any game in a major. Yet in the top 8 Evo 2013 we have....

2 Fortune
4 Doubles
5 Filias

Peculiar, guess it is just low level players who find Fortune annoying rather than her being overpowered. I don't like facing Peacock, but I at least know she doesn't need to be nerfed.
 
blufang said:
With tournament players power plays a huge role, look at just about any game in a major. Yet in the top 8 Evo 2013 we have....

2 Fortune
4 Doubles
5 Filias

Peculiar, guess it is just low level players who find Fortune annoying rather than her being overpowered. I don't like facing Peacock, but I at least know she doesn't need to be nerfed.
but some people consider Valentine top tier too...

I don't deny tier whoring exists, but I'm sure some of those people play thier characters cause they like them as sure as I play my team because busts, thighs, and gradius.
 
destruction_adv said:
yep, because a game with a small roster won't have similar teams.

You're misrepresenting my point entirely.

It is a small cast, and this particular size is so small that you can't glean a lot of information from it.

But the interesting thing about it, and my point in my earlier post is that given the option to choose ANY move in the entire game, Updo is overwhelmingly picked at the highest level at at least 50%... possibly higher if Winnie hadn't had Filia on point (though I'm guessing Updo?). Half of the teams had it. 100% of the winner's round had it. There were no hairball assists. There were no ringlet assists. There were no normals. Each Filia was 100% updo.

@Icky
Make your point. Did Updo get less represented at the highest tier? Did Duck and Sev switch teams? Did Updo receive a game changing nerf?

Let me save you time: No. I don't think so. Not really.
 
destruction_adv said:
but some people consider Valentine top tier too...

I don't deny tier whoring exists, but I'm sure some of those people play thier characters cause they like them as sure as I play my team because busts, thighs, and gradius.

This is true, no doubt.

But generally people at the top have a vested interest in staying at the top. You can generally tell which champs are OP in DOTA and LoL by watching pick/bans (meaning pros are adopting their teams based on strength) and SC by watching commonly used strats (old Hellbat drops being used every game TvZ).

I've no doubt in my mind that if Filia was nerfed into UP, a huge percent of people rocking her at the top level would drop her for the next strong thing.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
I had a conversation with Inuchiyo at EVO and we both said that our motivation for picking Fortune was because she's cute.
Character love > Tier lists

Sometimes.

PW 4 life!
 
Spencer said:
This is true, no doubt.

But generally people at the top have a vested interest in staying at the top. You can generally tell which champs are OP in DOTA and LoL by watching pick/bans (meaning pros are adopting their teams based on strength) and SC by watching commonly used strats (old Hellbat drops being used every game TvZ).

I've no doubt in my mind that if Filia was nerfed into UP, a huge percent of people rocking her at the top level would drop her for the next strong thing.
Yeah some would, but still, what I'm saying is that not everyone, in fact I'm going to go on a limb and say not even a majority, play their character based on tier.
 
Updo in sde was pretty freaking godlike because no matter what you did to it it was back out right away.
MDE makes having LNL or Hornet Bomber kinda beat Updo users pretty solidly because it locks the assist, even if it is a very short period of time.

What I've ended up doing is just using LNL to hit updo with HB coverage(it kinda covers bella decently. not the best to tell you the truth) or having HB hit it and then titan knuckling the assist.
Sliding knockdown + assist lock is pretty good, and as any character I just throw down backers on reaction because I'm aware that's a bad habit updo users still have.

Lk hb tho
now there's a godlike assist
 
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dekillsage said:
Updo in sde was pretty freaking godlike because no matter what you did to it it was back out right away.
MDE makes having LNL or Hornet Bomber kinda beat Updo users pretty solidly because it locks the assist, even if it is a very short period of time.

What I've ended up doing is just using LNL to hit updo with HB coverage(it kinda covers bella decently. not the best to tell you the truth) or having HB hit it and then titan knuckling the assist.
Sliding knockdown + assist lock is pretty good, and as any character I just throw down backers on reaction because I'm aware that's a bad habit updo users still have.

Lk hb tho
now there's a godlike assist

Assist lockout was a phenomenal choice to implement for all assists.... and related, one that was bitched about incessantly.
 
Spencer said:
Make your point. Did Updo get less represented at the highest tier? Did Duck and Sev switch teams? Did Updo receive a game changing nerf?

Let me save you time: No. I don't think so. Not really.
I've made my point, no match is just turtle and call assist for days like a bunch of lower levels players think it is.

(PUTTING THIS HERE BEFORE SOMEONE CALLS ME OUT: I am also a lower level player, don't misinterpret me and think that I';m saying that I'm good.)
 
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Icky said:
I've made my point, no match is just turtle and call assist for days like a bunch of lower levels players think it is.

(PUTTING THIS HERE BEFORE SOMEONE CALLS ME OUT: I am also a lower level player, don't misinterpret me and think that I';m saying that I'm good.)

You do know there are high level players that also think assists could use a nerf... don't you?
 
Spencer said:
Assist lockout was a phenomenal choice to implement for all assists.... and related, one that was bitched about incessantly.
Yes yes. The only thing about H updo I don't like at this point is the fact that at the moves highest peak (where it does like 400 damage or something) STILL causes a hkd. But its fine really.
 
Spencer said:
You do know there are high level players that also think assists could use a nerf... don't you?

Since assist lockout? Who, or is this going to be based on SDE again? And I don't recall any good players complaining about assist lock-out.
 
Spencer said:
You do know there are high level players that also think assists could use a nerf... don't you?
Assists needing nerfs =/= assists being the entirety of the neutral game
 
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@destruction_adv I don't want to speak on behalf of anyone, but I believe this post demonstrates that @IsaVulpes is in favor of invincible assist nerfs. Here is a post by @KhaosMuffins which is hardly an endorsement for a nerf, but it does seem to be an interest in trying a nerf.

"I also miss the experiment where DP assists (or at least Updo) only knocked opponents away instead of knocking down. But eh. Assist scaling is nice."

Edited to add: Sev is not on the list of people who think assists need a nerf.
 
Spencer said:
@destruction_adv I don't want to speak on behalf of anyone, but I believe this post demonstrates that @IsaVulpes is in favor of invincible assist nerfs. Here is a post by @KhaosMuffins which is hardly an endorsement for a nerf, but it does seem to be an interest in trying a nerf.

"I also miss the experiment where DP assists (or at least Updo) only knocked opponents away instead of knocking down. But eh. Assist scaling is nice."

Edited to add: Sev is not on the list of people who think assists need a nerf.
Isa is more of a high level labmonster
 
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Looks like a revision:

A great number of players up to but not necessarily including top tier would like to see some changes to assists.
 
Spencer said:
Looks like a revision:

A great number of players up to but not necessarily including top tier would like to see some changes to assists.
Who are these great number of players? And don't name the people who play at beginner/intermediate levels.
 
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Icky said:
Who are these great number of players? And don't name the people who play at beginner/intermediate levels.
I'm sorry, but I'm sure he has Binders of players. Alright, back on topic now. I tried to play today to test out beta in vs but there were few (if any) people on. What are the usual peak times for beta besides when beta gets changed?
 
Broseidon Rex said:
I'm sorry, but I'm sure he has Binders of players. Alright, back on topic now. I tried to play today to test out beta in vs but there were few (if any) people on. What are the usual peak times for beta besides when beta gets changed?
I was wondering since it's silly to balance a competitive game for lower levels of play, so if it's only a complaint from lower level players then it's pretty irrelevant if the change would effect high level play.

And http://steamcharts.com/app/208610 for beta peak times.
 
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I don't know ANY top players in favor of assist nerfing. Then again, I only consider like 3 players "top players" in my book.
 
winnie said:
My thoughts on assist nerfing: "fuck got hit by updo, Fuck got hit by updo, fuck another updo.... wait a minute I can just not IAD into an updo and wait it out then go in" problem solved.
That requires a thought process though
 
Icky said:
I was wondering since it's silly to balance a competitive game for lower levels of play, so if it's only a complaint from lower level players then it's pretty irrelevant if the change would effect high level play.

And http://steamcharts.com/app/208610 for beta peak times.

This is false and has been demonstrated to be false by games like Dota, SC, and LoL.

You have to balance a competitive game at all levels. Pros don't keep a game a float. The casuals that everyone so maligns do.

If the game is unapproachable for a newer player, then you can expect not to get newer players and you can then expect the game to die.

Pros will adapt and get good at virtually any changes balanced at any level.

That isn't to say that they shouldn't be kept in mind when balancing a game, but it is to say that this bullshit truism that we should balance for 5 people is false.
 
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Spencer said:
This is false and has been demonstrated to be false by games like Dota, SC, and LoL.

This is a fighting game. This is a fighting game. This is a fighting game. This is a fighting game. This is a fighting game. This is a fighting game.
This is a fighting game. This is a fighting game.
This is a fighting game. This is a fighting game.
 
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Icky said:
This is a fighting game. This is a fighting game. This is a fighting game. This is a fighting game. This is a fighting game. This is a fighting game.
This is a fighting game. This is a fighting game.
This is a fighting game. This is a fighting game.
Thanks, we got it the first time you said it's a fighting game. Second time too, no need to spam it.


What is balancing for the lower levels of play? Nerfing things that are hard to deal with? LoL did that once when the game was still young. Low levels couldn't deal with a certain character and they ended up nerfing him pretty hard and he was unviable at higher levels for quite some time. Usually balancing for higher levels is best for the game as a whole. Lower levels of play won't really see the difference anyway unless it's something major. Changing the frames of a few moves here and there, I doubt newer players would notice anything different.
 
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ashxu said:
Thanks, we got it the first time you said it's a fighting game. Second time too, no need to spam it.


What is balancing for the lower levels of play? Nerfing things that are hard to deal with? LoL did that once when the game was still young. Low levels couldn't deal with a certain character and they ended up killing his viability at higher levels because he was so bad. Usually balancing for higher levels is best for the game as a whole. Lower levels of play won't really see the difference anyway unless it's something minor. Changing the frames of a few moves here and there, I doubt newer players would notice anything different.
Had to say it a bunch of times since these people who keep comparing this game to SC2, Dota, LoL and such STILL don't get it.
 
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Icky said:
Had to say it a bunch of times since these people who keep comparing this game to SC2, Dota, LoL and such STILL don't get it.

I'm quite sure the majority of people who play SG and/or read these forums have some sense of basic English. You're hurting yourself more than helping others.
 
Well a 1:1 comparison isn't doable but it's not to say it's impossible to compare the games as they're all balanced around the objective of making the game as competitive as possible.

Balancing for the 1% and not for the 99% sounds illogical yes but doing so is usually for the best. Unless you can give some good points as to why developers should balance a game by taking in account people's lack of skill outside of the risk/reward paradigm.
 
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