Poll: Are the Beta changes ready for prime-time?

[Hilary]

well back on topic then, who wants to bitch about something and have everyone yell at you next?

 

[Iphantom]

Well I'm still waiting to play on console because my video card is trash. Looking at the videos of beta matches though, that looks like the game I want to play. More so than mde and definitely more than Evo top 8. Even now it's not like the combos are just magic series>special>super like most of what MVC2 was. I really do feel it's a good balance of keeping some flashy and diverse combos but not forcing a 20 second cutscene on someone.

Mostly I would just plead to keep PC and console as close as possible in whatever decision is made. I've waited so long just to play Squigly and if it changes again just a month later it would be really frustrating.

 

[RemiKz]

I'm pretty sure I'm the only player who alpha counters in this entire community.

Anyway

I think there's still a few things that need to be looked into, but it seems like Mike is pretty satisfied with what he has going now. With that being said, I hope after stuff is polished, the IPS/Undizzy changes get added to the console patch just so the game won't already be horribly outdated once the patch is actually out.

 

[Hilary]

 

[rayplay]

I'm pretty sure I'm the only player who alpha counters in this entire community.

 

[123stw]

Back on topic maybe? I like the new Undizzy. It gets the job done without actually lowering damage by that much. Now the cutscenes are only 2/3 as long. 2 full combo still kills so the gameplay probably won't change much, besides maybe more burst baiting.

The 150% on the counter hit I don't have problems with. When every hit in this game tends to get confirmed into thousands of damage, the extra boost on first hit probably won't matter much.

But the "counter hit subtracts undizzy" and "counter assist 90% scaling" makes no sense to me.

The whole point of the patch is to shorten the combo. So why give 340 whenever a j.HP connects as a counter? If it is for "promoting resets", then undizzy has no reason to go below 0.

As for 90% counter hit assist scaling, do we really need to encourage more Updo/Pillar turtling? Do we need invincible DP assist to be even more powerful relative to everything else? Also, don't forget the 150% on counter hit means Pillar will deal 1500 damage. 66% scaling universally seems just fine to me.

 

[Narroo]

Back on topic maybe? I like the new Undizzy. It gets the job done without actually lowering damage by that much. Now the cutscenes are only 2/3 as long. 2 full combo still kills so the gameplay probably won't change much, besides maybe more burst baiting.

The 150% on the counter hit I don't have problems with. When every hit in this game tends to get confirmed into thousands of damage, the extra boost on first hit probably won't matter much.

But the "counter hit subtracts undizzy" and "counter assist 90% scaling" makes no sense to me.

The whole point of the patch is to shorten the combo. So why give 340 whenever a j.HP connects as a counter? If it is for "promoting resets", then undizzy has no reason to go below 0.

As for 90% counter hit assist scaling, do we really need to encourage more Updo/Pillar turtling? Do we need invincible DP assist to be even more powerful relative to everything else? Also, don't forget the 150% on counter hit means Pillar will deal 1500 damage. 66% scaling universally seems just fine to me.

The point of counterhits is to reward pushing people for making bad moves or predicting what they're going to do. You can argue that getting hit is it's own punishment, but this makes counterhits even more rewarding.

 

[winnie]

Can I get a rase of hands for who actually turtles with updo/pillar because I don't know anyone who actually does this. Yes people do play defensively and call there assist do punish balls to the wall rush down but I have never seen anyone rely completely on there assist and do nothing else excepted maybe Peacock. If Im not wrong turtling is when you allow your opponent to come to you can try and punish any of their mistakes on their approach. The only character who can do this effectively is Peacock, everyone else has to rely on a overrated uppercut assist that can be easily baited and punished.


People have to dedicate a lot more to there defensive game before I think that they are turtling. Simply put I don't know any non Peacock player who turtles effectively.

 

[KhaosMuffins]

Back on topic maybe? I like the new Undizzy. It gets the job done without actually lowering damage by that much. Now the cutscenes are only 2/3 as long. 2 full combo still kills so the gameplay probably won't change much, besides maybe more burst baiting.

The 150% on the counter hit I don't have problems with. When every hit in this game tends to get confirmed into thousands of damage, the extra boost on first hit probably won't matter much.

But the "counter hit subtracts undizzy" and "counter assist 90% scaling" makes no sense to me.

The whole point of the patch is to shorten the combo. So why give 340 whenever a j.HP connects as a counter? If it is for "promoting resets", then undizzy has no reason to go below 0.

As for 90% counter hit assist scaling, do we really need to encourage more Updo/Pillar turtling? Do we need invincible DP assist to be even more powerful relative to everything else? Also, don't forget the 150% on counter hit means Pillar will deal 1500 damage. 66% scaling universally seems just fine to me.

The counter hit rewards punishes and allows people to still do their longer combos. It's both what Narroo said and it's a compromise for both people who like shorter combos and people who like longer combos in that the people who enjoy their longer, sometimes fancier combos are still allowed to do them, but not all of the time.

As for the DP turtling, urrrrg this has already been addressed. Yes, most people carry a DP assist to help out, but if they use their assist to play the game for them and don't bother to protect their assist then they will get blown up by people who don't run face first into assists.

 

[123stw]

The point of counterhits is to reward pushing people for making bad moves or predicting what they're going to do. You can argue that getting hit is it's own punishment, but this makes counterhits even more rewarding.

Except it doesn't actually do that. When you jump in with a HP and land a counter it wasn't because you are expecting them to fail at their AA. Any combo that starts from the ground will probably be from a light attack, which barely matters for the undizzy meter. Even an air to air counter read will still starts off from a light attack.

The counter hit rewards punishes and allows people to still do their longer combos. It's both what Narroo said and it's a compromise for both people who like shorter combos and people who like longer combos in that the people who enjoy their longer, sometimes fancier combos are still allowed to do them, but not all of the time.

As for the DP turtling, urrrrg this has already been addressed. Yes, most people carry a DP assist to help out, but if they use their assist to play the game for them and don't bother to protect their assist then they will get blown up by people who don't run face first into assists.

The point is, Updo, Pillar, and Double's butt will still be the best assist even without the counterhit scaling of 90%. They don't need another mechanic to make them better over every other assist types. At least try to give some incentives to use other types of assists.

I am not trying to make a judgement call as to rather 90% is too much, I just don't understand why they need to make invincible DP assist even better compare to everything else.

 

[destruction_adv]

Except it doesn't actually do that. When you jump in with a HP and land a counter it wasn't because you are expecting them to fail at their AA. Any combo that starts from the ground will probably be from a light attack, which barely matters for the undizzy meter. Even an air to air counter read will still starts off from a light attack.

In that case it was because they failed to time their anti-air properly and got punished for it, I don't see a problem with that.

 

[123stw]

In that case it was because they failed to time their anti-air properly and got punished for it, I don't see a problem with that.

The question isn't "who's fault it is". You can make the game like dive kick and everything OHKO and it will still be the player's fault for getting hit.

In Skullgirl, jump in is good enough as is, it does not need an extra mechanic to help the characters who specifically jump in with heavy attacks. Parasoul's j.hp is good enough and Fillia is already IAD j.HP all day long. AA from the ground (aside from invincible DP assist) is pretty terrible and don't need a nerf either.

It's like the game is trying to buff what's already good and nerf what's already bad.

 

[Jason]

Couterhit combos apply equally to antiairing your opponent properly and getting a CH from that.

 

[123stw]

Couterhit combos apply equally to antiairing your opponent properly and getting a CH from that.

And just how many hard attack anti air from the ground results in a full 340 combo? Bella's c.HP maybe? I can't think of anything else. By contrast I seen plenty of valentine/parasoul/fillia/double spamming their jump hard attacks and capitalizing the full 340 off a successful jump in is stupid easy.

Most character's "anti air" option is to jump in with an instant light attack follow by a combo. That merely subtracts 25 to the undizzy. A DP only subtracts 50. But a successful hard attack jump in subtracts 100. They are clearly not "apply equally".

 

[destruction_adv]

And just how many hard attack anti air from the ground results in a full 340 combo? Bella's c.HP maybe? I can't think of anything else. By contrast I seen plenty of valentine/parasoul/fillia/double spamming their jump hard attacks and capitalizing the full 340 off a successful jump in is stupid easy.

Most character's "anti air" option is to jump in with an instant light attack follow by a combo. That merely subtracts 25 to the undizzy. A DP only subtracts 50. But a successful hard attack jump in subtracts 100. They are clearly not "apply equally".

Normally defensive options don't lead to a lot of damage, haven't you seen the people talking bout why DP assists shouldn't lead to a lot of damage the last few pages?

 

[Zidiane]

Has a decision been made yet? What's going down?

 

[Stuff]

Maybe we'll find out on today's salty? I hope there's a decision soon.

 

[Negus Eyoel]

So why give 340 whenever a j.HP connects as a counter?

Why are you pressing buttons to begin with? Just block. If you get caught hitting buttons at a bad time you get punished for it with a harder hitting combo.

 

[Spencer]

@123stw I am not a fan of the assist scaling on CH either. Assist CH is about 90% of my issue with this game, and I hate when it was changed. That said, I'm super stoked assist scaling took a hit at all.

As for the DP turtling, urrrrg this has already been addressed. Yes, most people carry a DP assist to help out, but if they use their assist to play the game for them and don't bother to protect their assist then they will get blown up by people who don't run face first into assists.

The point is that it is still required. Yes, there needs to be good play behind it vs equally skilled players, but that doesn't stop it from being required or even OP. If in say Starcraft 2, there was a unit that was so good it was built in every game, but if you left it undefended it died... that doesn't stop it from being used in every game.

The point is that DP assist is borderline mandatory, easy to confirm off of (in fact, seems to be the preferred way of confirming), and super strong for both offense and defense. That one move will dictate the flow of the entire match. Not using it is effectively gimping yourself. But yes, you are right... there are ways to stop it.

 

[winnie]

Has a decision been made yet? What's going down?

Thats a real good question and I would like to know the answer.

 

[Broken Loose]

@123stwThe point is that DP assist is borderline mandatory, easy to confirm off of (in fact, seems to be the preferred way of confirming), and super strong for both offense and defense. That one move will dictate the flow of the entire match. Not using it is effectively gimping yourself. But yes, you are right... there are ways to stop it.

Have you ever thought about why DP assist is "borderline mandatory?" It's like there's this big conglomerate of Painwheel players that are all so massively confused as to what could possibly warrant an anti-air that can be called and confirmed into a combo without the risk of getting your inputs scrambled if somebody's trolling directly over you.

Why don't you have these complaints about lockdown assists? They leave your opponent in a long amount of hitstun on hit or block, and they're easier to confirm off of than DP's.

 

[Dagwood]

DP assist isnt mandatory. Actually i think assists like Hairball and napalm shot are underused. Theres lots of ways people deal with updo assist.

 

[123stw]

Normally defensive options don't lead to a lot of damage, haven't you seen the people talking bout why DP assists shouldn't lead to a lot of damage the last few pages?

I was replying to a guy who claims that the counter hit mechanics will affect the defensive side as much as the offensive side equally, which it clearly doesn't.

It is clearly to help the attacker who can now use their old combo if their jump in heavy end up being a counter. If Mike Z claims that 240 is a good combo length and the 7k-8k is enough per punish, then this mechanic doesn't need to exist. If not then just leave it at 350.

the assist 66% except on counter when it's 90% + 150% first hit damage is like saying

"We will nerf assist except for the invincible DP ones, because it will either be counter hit or blocked. We will also leave the lockdown assist alone since they are there to force block and the actual first hit usually comes from the player anyway. But everyone else who's trying something new? You guys are getting the axe".

All I am asking is all the assist gets the same treatment. Be it 66%, 90%, or even 100%.

DP assist isnt mandatory. Actually i think assists like Hairball and napalm shot are underused. Theres lots of ways people deal with updo assist.

Probably because they already have Double's Butt for the offensive lockdown option.

 

[Spencer]

Why don't you have these complaints about lockdown assists? They leave your opponent in a long amount of hitstun on hit or block, and they're easier to confirm off of than DP's.

That's exactly the point. There are a ton of great assists, so why are we seeing Updo, Updo, and Updo... because it is the best or good in virtually every situation?

It isn't exactly like there are enough top tier PWs such that players are exclusively picking Updo to counter them.

I am for the Updo nerf, not as a PW player, but as a viewer that is bored of the Updo-fest at all levels.

 

[Hilary]

@123stw

The point is that it is still required. Yes, there needs to be good play behind it vs equally skilled players, but that doesn't stop it from being required or even OP.

The point is that DP assist is borderline mandatory, easy to confirm off of (in fact, seems to be the preferred way of confirming), and super strong for both offense and defense. That one move will dictate the flow of the entire match. Not using it is effectively gimping yourself. But yes, you are right... there are ways to stop it.

I think you're focusing in a bit hard on the scenarios where it worked, and only acknowledging the permutations of matches where it hit, rather than the scenarios where it got blown the fuck up.

I played solo Painwheel up until a few weeks ago, and suffered all of the same AA assist bullshit you're probably going through now. I spent a lot of time practicing baits/punishes anywhere I could, and it just wasn't sustainable.

When I decided teams were the way to go, I played around with updo/filia specifically because I thought AA was necessary, and the more I played, the more I discovered I really like H.LnL counter calls for exploiting it rather than milking it myself. That's one solution, and I'm sure there's a lot more waiting to be found, on top of all the baiting/punishes that I'd practiced.

If in say Starcraft 2, there was a unit that was so good it was built in every game, but if you left it undefended it died... that doesn't stop it from being used in every game.

To use your SC2 analogy, WoL Marines were amazing. So much so, that MMM was the go-to unstoppable build, then people realized that Banelings or Infestors will utterly fuck that up. The ZvT metagame grew to exploit those heavy marine gimmick players (coughMKPcough) through Ling/Bane/Muta, Ling/Infestor, or Infestor/BroodLord. Were Marines still good and built every game? Yes. Were they still core to most ZvT builds? Yes. But you can't deny that when people accepted them and worked earnestly to counter them, they got a whole lot worse than they seemed initially.

Skullgirls is a relatively young metagame with a very small community of players; a lot can happen with some time and creativity.

 

[Spencer]

To use your SC2 analogy, WoL Marines were amazing. So much so, that MMM was the go-to unstoppable build, then people realized that Banelings or Infestors will utterly fuck that up. The ZvT metagame grew to exploit those heavy marine gimmick players (coughMKPcough) through Ling/Bane/Muta, Ling/Infestor, or Infestor/BroodLord. Were Marines still good and built every game? Yes. Were they still core to most ZvT builds? Yes. But you can't deny that when people accepted them and worked earnestly to counter them, they got a whole lot worse than they seemed initially.

Skullgirls is a relatively young metagame with a very small community of players; a lot can happen with some time and creativity.

I'll work backwards starting with the SC2 analogy. While blings and infestors countered marines, the go to still was and is marines. They are such a powerful all-purpose tool that they are in virtually every match-up. Updo is similar. It dictates the flow of this game.

I am saying this as someone who has roughly figured out how to deal with Updo assist (at the level I play). I have a much harder time with Squigs (j.hp, j.hp, j.hp), well-played Bellas (so few of you out there), and Parasoul (damn that air priority), but I'm not calling for nerfs to any of them.

I think (and this is just my opinion which may not be shared by the community at large) that invuln dp assist confirms incentives gameplay that is boring and really not fun to watch relatively speaking (I'd still rather watch SG than the other FGs).

 

[KhaosMuffins]

Thats a real good question and I would like to know the answer.

Not sure whether or not he was joking (he probably wasn't), but Mike said part of this poll was just to gauge how negative of a reaction he'd get for implementing the beta changes. As in, he'll probably go through with implementing the changes into the real game because he likes where it's ended up and I guess enough people like where it's ended up. Not sure if he's gonna keep making improvements, but Salty is tonight so I guess we can ask there.

But that's just my guess.

 

[blufang]

Maybe it's just me but I find double butt as annoying if not more so. It travels in an arc and a good distance, locks you in blockstun for an eternity, and seems harder to punish on whiff than raw updo. On a side note, how many top players would play Filia or Double if they didn't have the most dominant assists in the game?

 

[KhaosMuffins]

Maybe it's just me but I find double butt as annoying if not more so. It travels in an arc and a good distance, locks you in blockstun for an eternity, and seems harder to punish on whiff than raw updo. On a side note, how many top players would play Filia or Double if they didn't have the most dominant assists in the game?

Probably a lot still, since on point Filia is ridiculous, and Double is better than she was in the previous versions so she's more than just an assist character.

 

[blufang]

Yeah your right they are pretty ridiculously strong characters on their own.

 

[destruction_adv]

Maybe it's just me but I find double butt as annoying if not more so. It travels in an arc and a good distance, locks you in blockstun for an eternity, and seems harder to punish on whiff than raw updo. On a side note, how many top players would play Filia or Double if they didn't have the most dominant assists in the game?

How many top players like nice thighs? When you know that, you will have your answer.

 

[blufang]

I'm more of a breastman myself. As said by the wise sage, Jerrry Seinfeld

"A leg man? Why would I be a leg man? I don’t need legs. I have legs."

 

[No longer exist]

I'm more of a breastman myself. As said by the wise sage, Jerrry Seinfeld

"A leg man? Why would I be a leg man? I don’t need legs. I have legs."

We are all different. That's what makes the world go round. lol

 

[Viro Veteruscy]

Hmm... I use Double's Butt (she's got many uses for it ;3) though just the Medium one, never really paid attention to what was invincible. I'm aware of them but I like picking other assists sometimes such as Spire M for Filia and Napalm Shot H for Parasoul. Since I like using Fortune, I have her assist as s.HK Wheel of Fortune, just love the animations ^w^

Still can't decide what I like from everyone else, though I like Drag n Bite with Squigly and s.HK with Painwheel. I just like the moves for their looks rather than their properties. That's just me though and I'm an oddball >w<

 

[DARKNESSxEAGLE]

Still can't decide what I like from everyone else, though I like Drag n Bite with Squigly and s.HK with Painwheel. I just like the moves for their looks rather than their properties. That's just me though and I'm an oddball >w<

This is how I picked my team and it's order, everything else is just details

 

[NCV]

So this thread should be locked right

 

[Number 13]

Thread won't get locked until we get official word on what is happening (Hopefully by tonight) in regard of this topic because there could still be future discussion/debate/whatever about this beta change until then. Otherwise I would have locked thread the moment the poll period ended.

Just don't make the discussion go too off topic like what happened earlier. When there is word that this beta will/won't happen for the main game then I can lock this thread which was mainly for gauging poll feedback and people can continue the discussion based on the final decision in a new thread if need be.

 

[DDB]

How many top players like nice thighs? When you know that, you will have your answer.

Well in Skullgirls' case... It's like picking out something at KFC

 

[iLoli]

Can I get a rase of hands for who actually turtles with updo/pillar because I don't know anyone who actually does this. Yes people do play defensively and call there assist do punish balls to the wall rush down but I have never seen anyone rely completely on there assist and do nothing else excepted maybe Peacock. If Im not wrong turtling is when you allow your opponent to come to you can try and punish any of their mistakes on their approach. The only character who can do this effectively is Peacock, everyone else has to rely on a overrated uppercut assist that can be easily baited and punished.


People have to dedicate a lot more to there defensive game before I think that they are turtling. Simply put I don't know any non Peacock player who turtles effectively.

Come on winnie poh, no one's gonna honestly answer that.

Think of it like this: How many people do you see Duck yok up on wakeup, there's your answer, because they're ALL mashing that assist on wakeup, which allows Billy boy to run fullscreen with Val and just do it.

 

[Alstein]

Why are the new fighting games including shorter combos? Tekken Revolution removed Bounds, UNIB got an update called "EXE Late" where the long combos got nerfed badly, new Blazblue made combos shorter and I've been hearing on SRK forums that KOF players would like a new game that doesn't have HD combos and is more influenced by KOF98.

Because the mega combo craze was turning folks off fighters in Japan finally? I say about damn time.

Long combos drive away players and are boring to watch when you're on the receiving end.