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Possible new IPS

KhaosMuffins said:
Most people seem to be fine with the combo length in MDE. Combos are much shorter than SDE combos, and a hell of a lot shorter than vanilla combos.
While that is true that the overall combo length has steadily been decreased after each successive version, I would say its roughly 50/50 give or take (No clear majority) of people initial reactions for/opposed the current overall combo length. With the people generally opposed being the emerging PC crowd new to Skullgirls after taking a look on the Steam Forums (I.E never experienced the SDE or Vanilla builds on console to appreciate the relatively decreased combo length on MDE)

Vanilla = Super Duper long > *Gets combo hit confirm by player 1* "Well time to hit the toilet."

SDE = Very long > *Gets combo hit confirm by player 1* "Gonna grab a drink downstairs."

MDE = Fairly long > *Gets combo hit confirm by player 1* "Gonna check my email on phone"

In the end they are all still "long combos" from certain perspectives, but one would be less severe then the other. Like saying a 1st degree burn is a much better outcome then a 3rd degree burn, but in the end you still have to deal with an unpleasant burn.

You still will see people complain about the length as being too much "One Player Gaming" especially if they never touched the earlier builds while the people who stuck with game since console release most likely see no issue with the current length and give the reason along the lines of "It's part of the game".
 
Time wise, i think anything longer than 9 seconds is a long combo, but acceptable. after 12 or 14 secs things are too long... long enough combo to actually take the hands off the controller for some time. if a combo is so long that gives you the space for it, something is exaggerated
 
I ran a set last night against dime. I tend not to use my training mode combos in real matches, so I was pretty much winging it to figure out some basic bella/double combos. Even though I understand how the system works, I triggered IPS multiple times and could not tell what I had actually done wrong. It's unclear whether the hit that triggers, or the ender that precedes it is the culprit (at least during a match it is).


@Mike_Z If you're thinking about messing with damage scaling, maybe you could link it to undizzy so there's more incentive to reset early.
 
Dime_x said:
Mde is the undizzy non beta pc version. Sde is the long combo (console) version... I think maybe you have them mixed up?

No one that i know of really prefers sde combo lengths.
I liked SDE combos, the only problem was IPS not carrying over DHCs and tags.
 
Is it me, or is the IPS mechanics simply becoming too complex, too ad hoc? Perhaps it would be better to leave the IPS strictly as an anti-infinite/ anti-loop system, and use a different mechanic to regulate combos?

As far as regulating combo length goes...dare I say it? I think I will. Oh yes, I think I will say it!

Have you considered using the Chronophantasma time system, where your combos simply have a time limit? It's such a clever, sublime systems after all.

hqdefault.jpg

Muahahah HAH HAHA!!!!
 
Well, seeing some of the test combos, I'm actually more on team new-IPS than I thought. The combos look way dope.

Anyone find a Val one yet?
 
My answer to the unasked question "Is Undizzy resetting on ground tech a sufficiently big reason for you to stay on the ground without teching":

Read: I think Undizzy should trigger from Stage3 on, or even just always.
 
Okay, I just launched the Beta and tried out the new update.

1. Decided to try out a couple of KhaosMuffins Combos for Fortune.
Video source -
The 3rd combo (Intermediate Combo at 1:14) ends with 350-360 Undizzy Stun and works just fine (EDIT: IF you exclude the last part that starts with Sneeze after the Air Super. I forgot to mention this, because I never did the last part in matches). The 4th one (Moderately Difficult Combo at 2:12) doesn't work. It triggers Undizzy Burst after the OMNOMNOM grab.

2. It's still possible to do Double's Barrel loops. I do it like this: J.HP, cr.LK, s.MKx2, s.HK, j.LP, j.MK, j.HK, Barrel, s.LK, s.MKx2, S.HK, j.LK, j.MK, j.HK, Barrel, s.LPx2, s.MKx2, cr.HP, HK Hornet Bomber, Super. It reaches like 475 Undizzy stun, but doesn't trigger burst.

3. Cerebella's Flowchart combo is still possible to do unlike the previous Beta IPS test and the undizzy stun is not very high. Somewhere between 200 and 250.

I'm not a very technical person, but I don't know how this change will make combos shorter. It's like the current retail version, but Undizzy is triggered faster. My usual combos barely reached Undizzy anyway even before these tests.
 
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You have a good point, Isa. Even my old Barrel Loop didn't have the chains with Luger shot in Corner. I would be interested to know how people, who didn't like IPS Test#1, feel about this change.
 
New Fortune combos with the latest beta changes:
The only combo that really got shorter was the axe kick loop... though if I knew about these routes before I could've probably done more back then. Everything else is still ~10 seconds + super and does about the same amount of damage.
 
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Seems like this undizzy change is meant to make Loops less-optimal, rather then remove them entirely.
 
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Jason said:
Seems like this undizzy change is meant to make Loops less-optimal, rather then remove them entirely.
I definitely prefer this experiment over the previous one because the system is basically saying, "Hey, you can do this but you'll get better results if you don't do this," instead of saying, "Hey, you can't do this at all."
 
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Can't really speak for other characters, but this feels a lot less restrictive for Valentine than the other experiments. There's a damage loss, but I can't say it creates hard links or has a significant change in positioning in addition to that. It leaves more room to do stuff and most importantly (for me anyway), it doesn't create a bunch of char specific stuff just to reach satisfying damage.

I'd say this one was/is the least frustrating of the experiments and the one I like the most, but I don't know if people are gonna still be unhappy after the time reduction. Also as I said, I can't speak for other characters.

Here are the TIME comparisons for what I experimented with using the stopwatch (these all had 2 to 3 second supers included in them, so take that into account):

Fortune old combo: 15 seconds for 7.6k damage
Fortune beta combo: 11.5 seconds for 6.7k damage

Valentine old combo: 18 seconds for 7.2k damage
Valentine beta combo (path 1): 15 seconds for 6.3k damage
Valentine beta combo (path 2): 13 seconds for 6.4k damage

DHCs (there are 4 supers used in each of these):

Fortune to Valentine DHC old combo: 24 seconds for ~12.3k damage
Fortune to Valentine DHC beta combo (path 1): 23 seconds for 11.9k damage
Fortune to Valentine DHC beta combo (path 2): 21 seconds for 11.9k damage

Valentine to Fortune DHC old combo (Lvl 3 poison): 23 seconds for 100% in 2 vs 2
Valentine to Fortune DHC beta combo (Lvl 3 poison): 24 seconds for 100% in 2 vs 2
 
After preliminary testings against my old bnb... I dont like it.

I cant get 1 reset damage over 12k. I dont mind that so much, what i do mind is that i dont think other characters will be as hampered.

Right now I'm doing 7400 with no undizzy at start, the reset point at the end of that combo comes at about 6400k if i reset from there, i cant get more than 3k from my next reset... So 9400 k total for 1 meter.

So then i shortened the reset point to around 5500k. Now i can reset into a 4500k combo for a total of 10 k for 1 meter.


The thing about this new ips is that it really really penalizes us for using the same moves again. So that shortnes combos, but it just seems rather complicated in game. I still have bnbs but ow i have a whole lot more memorization not only from what combo length i used. But also what combo length i can use again afterwards...

Basically resulting in what feels like "i before e except after g, with the exception of p after c in the event g...

Not that i know what the above sentence says... But thats kinda the point.
 
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If we need to go with one of these new ips changes in the retail build: PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO THAT ONE THAT TRACKS ENDERS AND STARTERS WITH NO UNDIZZY. PLEASE DON'T DO ANY OF THESE UNDIZZY EXPERIMENTS.

:c
 
Actually if they go with one, pls go with the one in the regular pc version. 90 frame decay 350 stun, no fluff. Its far from perfect, but its the best thats been tried so far imho. Also, throw in that assist scaling because assist scaling equals thumbs up!
 
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Out of the three IPS experiments so far in the Beta I prefer the latest just because you technically can do loops, but they are far from ideal now. Overall combo length seemed to be cut down by a few seconds too as a by-product from what I played/seen.

I think its too early though to call for which IPS build would be ideal to go to consoles because Mike might not be done yet with the experiments in the beta yet.
 
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Whats the point of having an option that is less than ideal, in this circumstance?
 
Dime_x said:
Whats the point of having an option that is less than ideal, in this circumstance?
Some routes allow for different reset options than others. Even if you go down a route that's less ideal combo-wise, it still allows you to go for certain resets as opposed to the game just not allowing you to go down that route at all.

And doing the option that's less than ideal is just easier for some people.
 
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Having less optimal options are for people like me.
I've never done an "optimal" Parasoul combo in my motherfucking life.

They are in for me. Mike puts a fresh batch of steamed corn in my mailbox every morning he loves me so much.
 
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keninblack said:
Having less optimal options are for people like me.
I've never done an "optimal" Parasoul combo in my motherfucking life.

They are in for me. Mike puts a fresh batch of steamed corn in my mailbox every morning he loves me so much.
mmm... corn... -w-
 
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I actually like the current experiment. And I've worked out a Double combo that fits inside of its parameters. Doesn't do as much damage as I'd like, but it ends in an untechable knockdown. That's something, right?
 
I'd just like to go on record and say that I really like the chain limit system in the beta right now.
 
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Narroo said:
Have you considered using the Chronophantasma time system, where your combos simply have a time limit? It's such a clever, sublime systems after all.
I hope you're kidding. A system that invalidates your combo if you WALK for an extra few frames somewhere, or if you do a chain slower? No thanks. It was bad in CT, it's bad in CP. And I don't mean inelegant, I mean BAD, as in, does not solve the initial problem in an approachable way for all characters, or indeed sometimes doesn't solve it at all, and introduces extra problems in addition to being completely opaque to the player. Time- and damage-related limiting systems both have the same shortcoming - they don't care what you did in your combo in any way, so character differences and execution differences have disproportionate effects.
(Chain-related, while not elegant at all, at least takes into account what you're doing.)
 
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NOX said:
I'd just like to go on record and say that I really like the 5 chain/7 chain on counterhit system in the beta right now.
To you and anyone else who likes this:
Do you like it because of the LENGTH, or because of what it does to your combos?

I like the current combo length, but I *really dislike* what this actually does to combos.

#1: *PUNISHING* you for going for harder links
- PW [s.HP xx Fly > j.LK > s.HP] ends up dealing less damage than [s.HP xx Fly > j.LK > c.MK s.HP]; similar things with Parasoul's s.MP after Tearshot, Squigly's s.HP sx s.HP, etc
I don't think hard execution should be necessary, but I *do* think it should be rewarded - not so much that you /have to/ do it,
but so much that practicing the stuff in TrainingMode gives a payoff. Now it not only doesn't do that, but actually reduces your damage.
- In the Pre-Undizzy version, practicing that s.HP link after Fly j.LK means that I save the MK for use as a chainstarter later, giving me a longer, more damaging combo.
- In the Undizzy version, Undizzy hits too early for it to really lengthen my combo, but it's still more efficient to do the link because c.LK has a bad Damage per Undizzy ratio.
- In this version, you don't hit the IPS or Undizzy limits anyways, so HP now and MK later just deals less damage than MK HP now and LK MK HP later.

#2: Removing *ALL* fancy shit
- Parasoul [c.HP > j.MK j.HP xx L.Toss, j.HP > s.MP 4HK xx M.Toss > j.LK j.HP] are 5 chains
- Compare that to babby's first Parasoul combo, [c.HP > j.MP j.HP j.HK > s.LK(x2) s.MK(x2) c.HP > j.LP j.MK j.HK > s.LP(x2) s.MK(x2) s.HP(x2) xx Pillar], also 5 chains.
I think that the prettiest combos are ones where a lot of stuff happens. Something like:
[s.LK(x2) xx L.Tear, s.MP xx L.Egret, Dash c.MK c.HP > j.MP xx H.Toss, j.LK j.MP > Dash Jump j.LP j.2MK j.HP > 4HK xx Toss > tbc] ..
That's lot's of cool links and move interactions, but that's also 7 chains already.
Instead, the current system forces you to do the ABCLaunch > ABCRestand > ABCLaunch > ABCRestand > ABCEnder base with
a) Very very little experimentation possible (it will be quickly evident which are the most damaging strings, and that'll be it)
b) Nothing but boring chains (Squeezing any cool link in anywhere removes an entire chain = makes you massively lose out on damage)

I really really *REALLY* don't get how the same people (Hi Duckator) who complained about the last experiments "limiting their combo paths greatly" suddenly like this,
as this is the first test that ACTUALLY DOES THAT. Now finding stuff plain doesn't work anymore; the prettier your combo, the less likely it is to be usable.
 
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Finding in new IPS which is currently on. ( 5 chain limit from stage 2 onwards, 7 chain limits on Counter Hit).

Val's green vial and poison vial are super important for her to reach damage outside of DHCs. I can't seem to find a consistently good way for her to get over 7k by herself yet, but with green vial lv2 I got 7.5k and she can get over 8k with poison vial lv3 but that almost never happens (rip pummel horse assist). Filia can get 7.2k in the corner by herself.

I like this better than previous options as it's consistent in the "you can try everything you want to reach what you want, if you want too much you'll need to thread some ground." You're not penalized for doing loops as much as for doing anything anyway. Counter hits are even more meaningful and in a GG kinda o' way, which is always fun. But now we need a better way to recognize a CH (message, flash, new hitspark or something) as a couple of extra chains can turn into significant hurt.

Some characters will benefit more in terms of damage than others, since to some the damage is heavily present in the beginning while others came with time, so DHC/resets for them. (Totally unrelated note: Wyndia Castle theme from BoF3 sounds like a Chrono Trigger song.)

Throws do no damage now. Only con for me so far, it takes a lot of meter to reach good damage of a throw. Will people be less afraid of throws? more chains after a throw needed?

We'll see how this one goes, I'm curious to see what can people come up with it.

PS: We need a counter-hit option in Training Mode. Just leaving this here.
 
...from a purely gameplay-based view, this change is not really all that bad.

From an aesthetic point of view, though, I'm disgusted. RIP combo creativity, welcome homogenized boring crap.
 
Mike_Z said:
I hope you're kidding.

I was hoping that would be self-evident; I mean, just look at the picture. I believe you called it something to the effect of the stupidest combo system you've seen? That said, thanks for the explanation though, it was a good read.
 
Well, for one, Painwheel's Buer Thresher is triggering bursts on the last hit right now.

I don't like this current version much, I didn't get to test the ender > linker version much but it seemed interesting though not really much more restrictive than good old SDE from what I can tell.

The current version is just too brute force I believe, removes basically all combo paths, only have 1 or 2 decent reset setups per combo and it really just makes me want to do the most basic thing possible because anything mildly interesting or heavy looking will almost certainly do less than 5 full strings.
 
@IsaVulpes
Pretty much entirely the length. I hadn't thought of anything you just brought up, and even now that I do, it doesn't bother me much if the tradeoff is more time spent in neutral. You make a lot of valid points, this is just my opinion.
 
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