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Possible new IPS

IsaVulpes

IsaVulpes

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Ms. Fortune Filia Double
ALL OF THE FOLLOWING IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE AND MAY NOT EVEN CURRENTLY LOOK LIKE I DESCRIBE IT.
I'M RUNNING ON THIRDHAND TWITTER ONELINERS. THIS IS NOT GUARANTEED TO APPEAR IN THE GAME ETC

Mike demoed some possible IPS changes for BBand patch at this 3v3 tournament yesterday.
From what I've gathered so far, it looks like this:
- Stages are present as before
- Undizzy is removed
- IPS now tracks enders instead of starters
- You cannot link out of a tracked ender without triggering burst
More indepth description from MikeZ himself

What does this mean?
(all of the following stuff assumes starting in Stage5 because I'm too lazy to post some weird starter in front)

Filia:
s.HP(Launch)
- j.LK j.MP j.MK xx H.Airball
s.MP s.HP
- j.LP → Burst
♠♠ Used s.HP as an ender before, can't link any air normal now

Painwheel:
s.MP
- j.MP j.HP j.HK
c.MP s.HK
- j.LP j.MK j.HP j.HK
s.LP → Burst
♠♠ Used j.HK as an ender before, cant link any ground normal now. s.MP and later c.MP is fine.

Parasoul:
s.LK s.MP s.HP(x2) xx Pillar
[OTG] s.LK s.MP s.HP(x2) xx L.Tear
s.LK s.MP s.HP(x2) xx Pillar
♠♠ Legit combo because of 2 different enders (first Pillar, then Tearshot), repeated LK doesn't matter

Are combos dead?
- Nope. Even with IPS tracking BOTH starter and ender (!! A lot more restrictive than it is in the current form), you could still do decent damage.

Any quick notes?
- No more loops of any kind (eg Double Barrel loop has Barrel as ender mulitple times = won't work)
- In a complete vacuum, combos turn from H-MH-MMH-LMMH-LLMMH into L-LL-LLM-LLMM-LLMMH, which deals way less damage and is over a lot quicker
- Reduces Launchers to 2-3 per Combo (depending on whether your char has 1 or 2 launchers)
- Combos may actually look interesting now rather than being MK-Loop, MP-Loop, LK-Loop, LP-Loop
- Can give Filia multiple Airball dash cancels back #yada
- Completely kills current PW Install combos, as they rely on air Buer into air Buer etc
- No idea how this works with Fortune's head
- Burstbaits are super obvious now, as bursts trigger on the move *after* the faulty one

Discuss, try to stay civil, try to not be retarded, etc you know the drill.
Okay, I'm not sure whether you did, but NOW you do.
 
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This sounds great to me! Anything that makes combos shorter and removes loops is a huge improvement to the current system in my eyes.

IsaVulpes said:
Are combos dead?
- Nope. Even with IPS tracking BOTH starter and ender (!! A lot more restrictive than it is in the current form), you could still do decent damage.
Here's a quick example of some combos that would still work even if IPS tracked both starters and enders:


And here's a reminder of what resets look like in Skullgirls, in case people are so used to long combos that they forgot that it's possible to deal damage without them:

 
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This looks interesting. I want to see what we could do with this. I definately thought it would be worse considering mike said everyone would hate it.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
- In a complete vacuum, combos go from H-MH-MMH-LMMH-LLMMH to LLMMH-LLMM-LLM-LL-L, which deals way less damage and is over a lot quicker
I know we're both operating on twitter hearsay, but I think this might be wrong. After the initial LLMMH chain (assuming that you're in IPS stage 5) you wouldn't be able to end another chain with *any* of those normals because they'd all be tracked. The old IPS followed the rule of "don't start a chain with a move you've already used in the combo", so I imagine this one will follow the rule of "don't end a chain with a move you've already used in the combo".
 
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Omfg combo's wont last as long burn Mike_Z on a cross, he will die for his sins.

Real talk this can only be good for SG, if it tracks both starters and enders.
 
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I still don't understand the concept of an Ender. Is it in terms of ending a ground series?
 
Broseidon Rex said:
I still don't understand the concept of an Ender. Is it in terms of ending a ground series?
I assume that every time you start a new chain (in IPS terms), the move before that one was an ender. For example: if you start an air chain after a launcher, the launcher was the ender. If you do a Peacock corner chain that ends with c.HP > s.HK > 236LK (walking george) then link it into a s.LP, the 236LK was the ender.
 
Ok so the implication the I immediately think of is that corner carrying will have to look completely different. Some characters are hurt by this way more than others, but I think in time the damage output would be ok once we learn combos without loops.

And yea I think Mr. Peck is right. What will happen is that the 'loop' will move from the end of the chain to the beginning. So you can always use your lights to start with and cycle through the other 4 buttons as enders. This removes the loops that we know because the properties of light attacks don't lend themselves to doing traditional loops. So loops still exist because of the nature of IPS but they look a lot different, and cooler, and faster.
 
That would be a bitch.

Maybe it's just that I'm not used to it, but sounds pretty counterintuitive(if this is a word in english).

Skullgirls is a combo based game, I would appreciate if it stayed that way.
 
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IPS is counterintuitive as it is, it would take just as much time to learn this reverse IPS (SPI?) as it would to learn the original.

Also I really would rather it not track both, at least not at first. We need to beta test it.
 
If this goes in and is done right I think this could be really good. Undizzy was supposed to promote resets but its really just made everyone start using undizzy maxed combos that end in bait > effective ToD, or end with max damage possible > back to neutral. This could finally be a more short combo > reset friendly setup.
 
Mr Peck said:
I assume that every time you start a new chain (in IPS terms), the move before that one was an ender. For example: if you start an air chain after a launcher, the launcher was the ender. If you do a Peacock corner chain that ends with c.HP > s.HK > 236LK (walking george) then link it into a s.LP, the 236LK was the ender.
So the ender is the last move before a lighter attack was used then, regardless of whether it was a normal, command normal or special move, correct? And would this include supers?
Also good explanation thank you
 
Besides the fact that it would become a whole other game, pretty much none of the usual bnbs for the whole cast would work. The addition of undizzy only took a few sections of the combos away, this would change the whole structure.
 
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Broseidon Rex said:
So the ender is the last move before a lighter attack was used then, regardless of whether it was a normal, command normal or special move, correct? And would this include supers?
Also good explanation thank you
That's one way of looking it at, unless you started doing weird links like Cerebella s.MP stagger, walk forward, cerecopter (in which case the s.MP was the end of a chain). I have no idea how it handles supers but I'd guess that you're allowed to link anything you want after a super or DHC, like how supers are free in the current IPS.
 
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I don't even know how to feel about this? I guess I would need to try it out for myself to be honest.
 
My knee jerk reaction is that I really don't like the sound of this. If I was the person who decided on design stuff, I'd even make undizzy a tiny bit less strict haha
 
I can't make up my mind on long combos. At first I loved long combos, then started hating them, now I'm maybe like 50/50 about it. I don't mind them shortening combos as long as they still look flashy and do good damage. If SG becomes something like Under Night In-Birth EXE Late (I only watched videos of it, so I may not know what I'm talking about 100%), then I wouldn't mind it. I actually still like the combos is SQE that we have right now compared to older versions or something like UMvC3.
 
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That's really weird... How much confirmed is this?
 
Ok at first I was excited, but then I realized that this would take a lot of effort to unlearn then relearn skullgirls so ehhhhhhh. I'd rather just learn defense and deal with the current system.
 
Camail said:
Ok at first I was excited, but then I realized that this would take a lot of effort to unlearn then relearn skullgirls so ehhhhhhh. I'd rather just learn defense and deal with the current system.
I think that might be the biggest problem, people learning how to combo with the new system.

We really gotta get a demo so we know how easy it is to learn.
 
I seriously doubt this will be a part of the big band patch unless everyone really obviously loves it. This is an experiment, I'm willing to participate a little bit but I don't think this is a sign of things to come.
 
I guess it's time for another Endless Beta party. If it doesn't kill Fortune's sandwich combos then I'll be happy.
 
things are evolving so fast that eventually we'll get a "choose your IPS system" option when making n'stuff. just like you can chose between super and AE in SF4
 
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IsaVulpes said:
If you need to "unlearn then relearn skullgirls" because your combos got shorter, .. WELLLLLLLLLLLL.

Seeing as you want to be civil I will try and phrase this properly. What you should have said is that shortening combos does not change anything about the game outside of there being shorter combos, so I wouldn't have to relearn most of the game.

What I would respond with with is two-fold. The first is that I would have to unlearn my muscle memory for every combo loop and relearn an entire combo system with new resets and new combos, not just for my own characters, but the resets for every character. This will take a lot of time that I don't have now that college is back in session. So the act of unlearning and relearning is still significant. This was my primary concern.

My second point is that to a lesser extent the length of combos does affect the other aspects of the game. Corner carrying will be different, and it might not be easy to get someone to the corner just from a single hit. If this ends up being true then I would say that it is important. Neutral is still neutral but combo length influences the offense and defense that come before and after it.
 
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My main concern with this isn't to do with the combos themselves, but with how it will affect the length of the matches. Done poorly, I can see this making the majority of matches longer (when they are already pretty long), but done correctly it could shift the focus onto resets just enough to make watching it more hype, give new players more active time and all that good stuff.

I'd also echo Zidiane's thoughts from earlier, but perhaps not as extreme. In my eyes, unless it really isn't working any further changes to the combo system should probably wait until after next year's EVO (read: so, probably the same time as the last of the current DLC characters has come out if all goes to plan) at the very least. The number of complainers that Mike would please by even more changes to the combo system would not be more than the number who drop it because there's no chance for a meta to evolve before everything changes again.

Other than that, I'd say I'm looking forward to this.
 
I am all for this change and anyone who doesn't want to play fast pace mvc2 style reset oriented game is a baby. Thank you based Mike Z. Also, I agree with the "should wait until after evo" bit, even if I want it now. It's only fair

edit: Thinking on this further, I really like this, because it also makes more options against assists worth it. Double snapping becomes a much more powerful option, so calling assists near corners is much riskier than it was before, even though the end result is the same as it is now.
 
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Might be neat. I can't wait to see what comes out of this and I hope people have an open mind to it.
 
I actually don't mind the combos that Mr.Peck posted and I would be willing to try this.

With that being said, I think this is incredibly dumb and restrictive for anyone trying to learn the game. I can't even imagine trying to explain this to a new player and have them still want to play the game afterwards. They would either be triggering IPS all the time or have to learn really specific combos.
 
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RemiKz said:
I actually don't mind the combos that Mr.Peck posted and I would be willing to try this.

With that being said, I think this is incredibly dumb and restrictive for anyone trying to learn the game. I can't even imagine trying to explain this to a new player and have them still want to play the game afterwards. They would either be triggering IPS all the time or have to learn really specific combos.
I feel like a new player wouldn't be able to combo that easily in the first place, so wouldn't this be better for them anyways?
 
WarpedEcho said:
I feel like a new player wouldn't be able to combo that easily in the first place, so wouldn't this be better for them anyways?
Probably, yes. But then they will hit the invisible wall of needing a neutral game sooner, rather than just thinking they need to grind out longer combos in the lab.
 
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WarpedEcho said:
I feel like a new player wouldn't be able to combo that easily in the first place, so wouldn't this be better for them anyways?

I mean a new player trying to learn the game, not someone that literally just picked up the controller and never played the game.
 
I think the idea is really rad on paper, but I share the concern with relearning the game. I'd be willing to give it a try though, and I think it really could be what the game needs.
 
I'll restate what I already said on page 1. This IPS is equally as counter-intuitive as the current IPS. It will take the same amount of effort to understand the mechanic. They are both simple concepts, but they are artificial concepts (I hope my use of this term is clear) that are not necessarily part of the concept of a combo. Meaning that we need to have IPS explained to us, and once it is explained there is no issue. We can copy paste our explanation of the current IPS and just replace the word "opener" with the word "ender". New players will be equally as confused and will learn it equally as quickly.
 
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My initial thought is how will painwheel be affected... Lol


Will ending in flight make flight the ender? Or will it not count as a move since it doesn't hit? If flight becomes an ender then painwheels combos will get majorly truncated, as do many others but not all... a few other things that seem to happen at first glance:

Forces more links, and thusly harder combos... See pecks Bella bnb on the first page and notice the Bella j.lp launch series into a cr.mp on the landing. That is a much harder link than her current one of using st.lp.

This isn't a huge problem offline... But online things will be muddied imho... More dropped combos cause of harder links. That isn't something I look forward to especially since I mostly play online.

It seems to give characters with six series ground chains an inherent advantage at least theoretically... There are just more normals for them to use before they get to there ender, thus higher damage for the faster characters.

I also echo @camails opinion, it just seems like some new stuff to learn for not THAT good a reason. I'm all for learning new stuff, but having to learn redundancies doesn't seem fun. And by redundancies I mean why couldn't we have just learned this from the get go rather than having to learn new stuff to replace our old stuff? It from my perspective seems kinda like a bait and switch... We came to skullgirls enticed by the long combos, then got them taken away from us...
I don't mind short combo styles, but it seems really forced. It seems like a better idea for an sg2 from the fans perspective... But a great idea from a Developers perspective since saying "hey, sg2 has much shorter combos than sg1" and just having people be all "ok, well not buying that game"

Since we already have sg, it seems logical to force this down our throats in this version since we already have it.


But having said all that, it is interesting, but if it does go through... I REALLY HOPE THAT DAMAGE IS TURNED UP TO COMPENSATE. These long ass marathon matches that can happen when both players are of similar levels can really grind my gears sometimes.
 
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