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Salty Updates 14 Mar 2014

HA. I wish. I'm at the glass ceiling between high-intermediate and tourney-level. Hopefully, the local I'm attending this weekend breaks that ceiling. Can't afford to go to tournaments like that; otherwise, I'd be going to EVO and events like that.
 
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RetroStation said:
HA. I wish. I'm at the glass ceiling between high-intermediate and tourney-level. Hopefully, the local I'm attending this weekend breaks that ceiling. Can't afford to go to tournaments like that; otherwise, I'd be going to EVO and events like that.
Gatekeeper-life
 
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Guilty Gear does have very long combos at high level. Darkstalkers does not, other than the Sako BB infinite as well as the Jedah and Q Bee Dark Force fly semi infinites. Even at pro level darkstalkers is majority short combos.
 
Skullgirls
464 hrs on record

Skullgirls ∞Endless Beta∞
104 hrs on record

-------------------------
I should stop and take a breather...
 
MegamanDS said:
Skullgirls
464 hrs on record

Skullgirls ∞Endless Beta∞
104 hrs on record

-------------------------
I should stop and take a breather...
I wish I could see the time spent on PS3/360 Skullgirls. Cause god damn. The time I must have spent on vanilla/SDE. I clocked in 150 ish hours on the beta in a month or so (before I stopped playing it so much).
 
lol I have 445 hours on retail
111 hours in beta

this game is 19muchfun47me
 
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Also, using infinites as examples of long combos is a bit disingenuous since they're both long by definition and tend to be oversights or glitches. Unless a game has a ton of infinites being used as BnB, pointing to one and saying "this game has long combos!" is aside the point.

Plus, in some games, those long combos have to be earned by getting counter hits, good starters, or spending meter. You don't get to juggle someone all day out of a jab. (usually.)
 
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WELL @Mike_Z those long Vsav combos are kinda rare but heres another good one to illustrate your point



160 hours in beta

13 hours in retail (I play big band)

2557 hours in Dota

PS: people say they like Vsav length combos yet no one plays Vsav, WEIRD
 
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Er. I got Zappa infinite'd at SoCal Regionals. It's not uncommon at all. (If Brett can do it, anyone can do it. :^)
Neither were the triple-unblockables or the Testament long junk or hell even Sol 20-second Sidewinder combos. None of those require a CH, tons of meter, or particularly hard setup.

And as far as it not being a valid example, +R is a REVISION of two games in which he had infinites. They could have removed it, as they did certain other combos, but they chose not to.
In fact it's easier in +R.

My whole point was that "short combos like GG/VSav have" and "short combos like I get hit with at my level in GG and VSav" are different.
GG and VSav have some pretty absurdly long combos, and also have no real protection against them. But most people aren't good enough to do them, whereas SG makes combos easier.
So even though SG has no infinites and a pretty hard cap on combo length, unlike in GG most players can reach that length, thus it gets complained about.

And no, you would rather not die from short stuff the way you do in VSav. If you think that you just really haven't played it.
 
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Rance said:
PS: people say they like Vsav length combos yet no one plays Vsav, WEIRD
people say they like SG yet no one plays SG
people say SF4 is garbage and MvC3 trash yet everyone plays those

Maybe we need to start telling people that everything about this game is shit when trying to sell it to them
 
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IsaVulpes said:
people say they like SG yet no one plays SG
people say SF4 is garbage and MvC3 trash yet everyone plays those

Maybe we need to start telling people that everything about this game is shit when trying to sell it to them
I'm not sure reverse psychology helps in getting people to play games.
 
Osmiumsmith said:
True, true. But it is better to die faster than to be locked up for a long time seeing the numbers rise. Also, the skill to do long combos is greater than to do shorts. New players, specially new people to fighters, see those and think: "Wow, how much time of practice I will have to take before I can play in the proper way? I don't have time for that."
?

Wrong, actually. SG combos are ridiculously easy, and skills to do long combos are not always greater than a shorter, more rewarding one. Also, what all players dislike is losing a lot of life in one combo, whether it be ten hits or fifty. I suggest you do the following:
  1. Get to a level of competence in these games before making statements like that about what requires greater skill.
  2. Stop getting hung up on combo-ability being what determines whether or not you can play the game. Too many novices do this, before learning what the game is really about.
It's not the guys with the longest, flashiest combos that win the majority of matches (not since SDE, anyway). Please do not let that be your focus as a novice player. Also, SG will never be a game where you can just outplay a better player, or get some mechanic that instantly puts you on a level playing field (ultra, xfc, etc.) You have to work at it to get your wins.

IsaVulpes said:
people say they like SG yet no one plays SG
people say SF4 is garbage and MvC3 trash yet everyone plays those

Maybe we need to start telling people that everything about this game is shit when trying to sell it to them

People already think this game is shit, and don't play. I don't think that's going to work...
 
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View619 said:
  1. Get to a level of competence in these games before making statements like that about what requires greater skill.
  2. Stop getting hung up on combo-ability being what determines whether or not you can play the game. Too many novices do this, before learning what the game is really about.
It's not the guys with the longest, flashiest combos that win the majority of matches (not since SDE, anyway). Please do not let that be your focus as a novice player. Also, SG will never be a game where you can just outplay a better player, or get some mechanic that instantly puts you on a level playing field (ultra, xfc, etc.) You have to work at it to get your wins.


People already think this game is shit, and don't play. I don't think that's going to work...

About 1: That makes it seem that I have to get a master degree in the game before voicing questions, statements or doubts. So... no.

The game is not shit. Far from it. But it is not perfect. Nothing is perfect, we are always running to achieve perfection. Keeping criticism hidden and silent is as bad as caustic trolling. Not everybody, actually, lots of people are basic players. Alienating them by saying their opinions don't matter is really bad PR.
 
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Osmiumsmith said:
About 1: That makes it seem that I have to get a master degree in the game before voicing questions, statements or doubts. So... no.

The game is not shit. Far from it. But it is not perfect. Nothing is perfect, we are always running to achieve perfection. Keeping criticism hidden and silent is as bad as caustic trolling. Not everybody, actually, lots of people are basic players. Alienating them by saying their opinions don't matter is really bad PR.
I'm inclined to agree, due to the simple fact that this game is supposed to cater to both casual and hardcore players. Alienating the casual crowd and dismissing valid concerns isn't beneficial to us as a community in the long run.
 
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RetroStation said:
I'm inclined to agree, due to the simple fact that this game is supposed to cater to both casual and hardcore players. Alienating the casual crowd and dismissing valid concerns isn't beneficial to us as a community in the long run.
Actually, I thought this game was catered to the hardcore player
 
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Broseidon Rex said:
Actually, I thought this game was catered to the hardcore player
It was supposed to be catering to both, hence the comprehensive tutorial.
 
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Osmiumsmith said:
About 1: That makes it seem that I have to get a master degree in the game before voicing questions, statements or doubts. So... no.

The game is not shit. Far from it. But it is not perfect. Nothing is perfect, we are always running to achieve perfection. Keeping criticism hidden and silent is as bad as caustic trolling. Not everybody, actually, lots of people are basic players. Alienating them by saying their opinions don't matter is really bad PR.

Not saying your opinion doesn't matter, just that it doesn't make sense to make statements like "most players would prefer x" when you don't even have a good grasp on what x actually is (x could be a lot worse). If you think that means you need to be a master at the game before you can give an opinion, well that's not true, you just need to understand what you're talking about. This should go without saying, but a lot of people jump the gun before figuring out how things work.

"Short", technical combos that do a lot of damage and lead to unblock-able/difficult reset or wake-up situations with no protection against it happening all over again are not what casual players want. They will just lose to it in the same way, and won't be able to re-create the same scenario themselves without investing time. Beginners who are serious about learning the game will learn it (SG makes it really easy, btw).

Also, SG doesn't cater to the casual crowd. The comprehensive tutorial is for beginners aiming to learn the game, imo. I'm pretty sure it was originally marketed as a competitive game for the tournament/competitive community.
 
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View619 said:
Stop getting hung up on combo-ability being what determines whether or not you can play the game. Too many novices do this, before learning what the game is really about.

This to the max.
 
View619 said:
"Short", technical combos that do a lot of damage and lead to unblock-able/difficult reset or wake-up situations with no protection against it happening all over again are not what casual players want. They will just lose to it in the same way, and won't be able to re-create the same scenario themselves without investing time. Beginners who are serious about learning the game will learn it (SG makes it really easy, btw).

It doesn't even take technical combos. The number of times I've won a match doing nothing but crouch short, forward fierce, stance cancel, repeat is mind blowing.
 
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View619 said:
Not saying your opinion doesn't matter, just that it doesn't make sense to make statements like "most players would prefer x" when you don't even have a good grasp on what x actually is (x could be a lot worse). If you think that means you need to be a master at the game before you can give an opinion, well that's not true, you just need to understand what you're talking about. This should go without saying, but a lot of people jump the gun before figuring out how things work.

I watched a lot of matches and heard a lot of people. I kind of have a grasp. In the same way I am lousy at soccer but know that Barcelona is one of the best teams of the world.

It let me see that MvC 3 Phoenix level 5 was pure bullshit, specially when crowds howled by seeing her getting killed by West and Racoon.

View619 said:
"Short", technical combos that do a lot of damage and lead to unblock-able/difficult reset or wake-up situations with no protection against it happening all over again are not what casual players want. They will just lose to it in the same way, and won't be able to re-create the same scenario themselves without investing time. Beginners who are serious about learning the game will learn it (SG makes it really easy, btw).

In the video I posted, I noticed that when the solo Soul managed to reach the player with the trio after, he would trash them. The main and solo tactic of the trio player was trashing the screen, Solosoul had a hard time with that but in the matches she reached Peacock, most of the times she destroyed her and the rest of the team pretty quickly. The problem would be reaching.

Basically, it is like that Pea/Double/Soul tactic required 5 points of skill, but beating it required 7. That trio with 10 points can diversify a lot better than that.

The match-up issues are continously worked through a game existence. There are patches, nerfs, buffs, and forums and people where you can consult. There may be 5 point skills to beat that but they may be not so obvious to most people. One of the reasons we all talk.

View619 said:
Also, SG doesn't cater to the casual crowd. The comprehensive tutorial is for beginners aiming to learn the game, imo. I'm pretty sure it was originally marketed as a competitive game for the tournament/competitive community.

It has easier and harder difficulties, easier and harder players (all of them with money), people who like to watch the matches, play the matches, play and watch the matches, and people who admire the artwork, the story and the panties. The competitive community was a big target, but watching those adorable voice actors scrubing sold the game to a lot of fans.
 
"Kinda having a grasp" and fully understanding are two different things. For example, you can know x character is the best character based on what other people say, but if you can't actually explain why then you shouldn't make suggestions like "many people would enjoy it if this was nerfed/buffed". I'm going to leave it here though, since this is an open forum and all players are free to say whatever they want, with or without supporting evidence. Not a fan of going in circles.
 
Osmiumsmith said:
I watched a lot of matches and heard a lot of people. I kind of have a grasp. In the same way I am lousy at soccer but know that Barcelona is one of the best teams of the world.
It let me see that MvC 3 Phoenix level 5 was pure bullshit, specially when crowds howled by seeing her getting killed by West and Racoon.
READ THIS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

Your post is a good example of that. You can know that Barcelona is a good team, or know that Dark Phoenix was pretty busted in MvC3, without really knowing why.
But when you go to offer advice for changing things or balancing the playing field you need to know why, and that requires a MUCH deeper understanding.

Osmiumsmith said:
In the video I posted, I noticed that when the solo Soul managed to reach the player with the trio after, he would trash them. The main and solo tactic of the trio player was trashing the screen, Solosoul had a hard time with that but in the matches she reached Peacock, most of the times she destroyed her and the rest of the team pretty quickly. The problem would be reaching.
The solo Parasoul in that video did a lot of things wrong, and didn't use several of her tools well or capitalize off many situations in the best way that Parasoul can (or even a moderately good way).
To judge based on that video is, again, not knowing WHY or what could have been done better.
And again, good zoning is mostly *harder* than good rushdown.

Osmiumsmith said:
Basically, it is like that Pea/Double/Soul tactic required 5 points of skill, but beating it required 7. That trio with 10 points can diversify a lot better than that.
To use your scale, that Parasoul had "about 4.5 points of skill", then - she was almost as good as the Peacock player, not better. But you don't know enough about the game to see that, so you think the Peacock side was easy and the Parasoul side was "more skilled" because you don't know enough to know differently.

----

As far as who I care about when designing and balancing the game - the good players specifically. Period.
If the game is accessible enough for casual players (and judging by the number of this type of complaint it seems to be) then what designers really need to think about is "what happens when people are good".
So yes, casual players have money and are very vocal, and I'm sure other members of Lab Zero are very concerned about that...but if they offer an opinion that would ruin a matchup at higher levels, I will ignore said opinion all day and night.

And I will attempt to explain to them why their opinion is irrelevant, as I have been doing with you, and it will largely go unheard because they do not see past their own experiences, as has happened here.
(^.^)

If you think I'd make a design decision based on whether it would make more people knee-jerk react and buy the game, you must be confusing me with someone else.
 
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Mike_Z said:
READ THIS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

Your post is a good example of that. You can know that Barcelona is a good team, or know that Dark Phoenix was pretty busted in MvC3, without really knowing why.
But when you go to offer advice for changing things or balancing the playing field you need to know why, and that requires a MUCH deeper understanding.


The solo Parasoul in that video did a lot of things wrong, and didn't use several of her tools well or capitalize off many situations in the best way that Parasoul can (or even a moderately good way).
To judge based on that video is, again, not knowing WHY or what could have been done better.
And again, good zoning is mostly *harder* than good rushdown.


To use your scale, that Parasoul had "about 4.5 points of skill", then - she was almost as good as the Peacock player, not better. But you don't know enough about the game to see that, so you think the Peacock side was easy and the Parasoul side was "more skilled" because you don't know enough to know differently.

----

As far as who I care about when designing and balancing the game - the good players specifically. Period.
If the game is accessible enough for casual players (and judging by the number of this type of complaint it seems to be) then what designers really need to think about is "what happens when people are good".
So yes, casual players have money and are very vocal, and I'm sure other members of Lab Zero are very concerned about that...but if they offer an opinion that would ruin a matchup at higher levels, I will ignore said opinion all day and night.

And I will attempt to explain to them why their opinion is irrelevant, as I have been doing with you, and it will largely go unheard because they do not see past their own experiences, as has happened here.
(^.^)

If you think I'd make a design decision based on whether it would make more people knee-jerk react and buy the game, you must be confusing me with someone else.


4.5? Ahh, almost there. Poor Solosoul.

I know of that study. It is very cool. That must be why my presidents are so sure of everything and my country is the way it is :BIN:. What muddles it up is that is not an absolute. Everyone knows some "hows" and "whys" outside of their areas of expertise, even though it is true that if it is in your area you will know more.

I don't want anyone to make knee-jerk reactions, those are dangerous.

Everybody's opinion is relevant, Mike. Even a wrong opinion is relevant and important, if you dismiss and ignore them, somebody ends wishing to the Skullheart to make Zombie Papa Doc king. That is why I thank the time that people dispense to explain things.
 
... make a design decision based on whether it would make more people knee-jerk react and buy the game ...


AqlMvBz.jpg
 
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Osmiumsmith said:
Everybody's opinion is relevant, Mike.

This is very not true in the fighting game community. Any FG forum is a vast ocean of bad opinions.
 
I, for one, support using bad opinions as relevant for balancing a game.
 
not all opinions are good, thats like me saying "teacup needs super armor and invincibility on landing" without knowing why Teacup is already a pretty decent special
 
wiredgod said:
This is very not true in the fighting game community. Any FG forum is a vast ocean of bad opinions.
alexpi said:
I, for one, support using bad opinions as relevant for balancing a game.
DeathArcana said:
not all opinions are good, thats like me saying "teacup needs super armor and invincibility on landing" without knowing why Teacup is already a pretty decent special

Well, bad opinions =/= irrelevant opinions. I can and will admit that my opinion is wrong. But I will never aknowledge that voicing something is irrelevant in anyway. If you were wrong, you may have shamed yourself, or learned something new, or both, but you changed your world in someway and that is not irrelevant.
 
DeathArcana said:
not all opinions are good, thats like me saying "teacup needs super armor and invincibility on landing" without knowing why Teacup is already a pretty decent special
It may be a decent special, but why use it when you can barrel loop? /non-seriousness
 
shoryusatsu999 said:
It may be a decent special, but why use it when you can barrel loop? /non-seriousness
because I dont think you can barrel loop from the air if the opponent is on the ground, but lets buff all item drops :P

anyways is the patch going out have glass canopy?
 
Mike_Z said:
As far as who I care about when designing and balancing the game - the good players specifically. Period.

If you think I'd make a design decision based on whether it would make more people knee-jerk react and buy the game, you must be confusing me with someone else.

Thank you Mike_Z for consistently using common sense in your design philosophy. :)
Also, for having the patience to explain in detail what I can't be bothered to explain.
 
Osmiumsmith said:
Well, bad opinions =/= irrelevant opinions. I can and will admit that my opinion is wrong. But I will never aknowledge that voicing something is irrelevant in anyway. If you were wrong, you may have shamed yourself, or learned something new, or both, but you changed your world in someway and that is not irrelevant.
Yes, you told me something I already know is incorrect because your point of view is incomplete and then hung on to it, so you made me slightly more annoyed. The world is changed, congratulations!
And er...if you were willing to acknowledge your opinion might be incorrect, this thread would be a lot shorter. Instead, you presented an opinion that was counter-argued and then stuck to it until this point.

Everyone has an opinion, true.
I should listen to all of them? No way! Nobody does that, not even you. (For example, my opinion is that your opinion is not helpful, but did you listen to that?)

END OF OFFTOPIC BS, no more responses to this.

DeathArcana said:
anyways is the patch going out have glass canopy?
Yep!
 
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To get back on topic, when will the beta changes be merged with the retail version?
 
My guess is that which ever beta changes have been tweaked and tested enough will be implemented with the Big Band patch.
 
the patch will have the not real music track for glass canopy then?
 
DeathArcana said:
the patch will have the not real music track for glass canopy then?
From what I heard, the new music for Patron Saint Glass Canopy stage comes later due to falling behind schedule and the higher priority, as far stages go, is aimed toward working on the stages associated to the remaining characters like music for the Eliza associated stage. Feel free to correct me if wrong.
 
Number 13 said:
From what I heard, the new music for Patron Saint Glass Canopy stage comes later due to falling behind schedule and the higher priority, as far stages go, is aimed toward working on the stages associated to the remaining characters like music for the Eliza associated stage. Feel free to correct me if wrong.
well I figured since Eliza seems to be a pretty while away that there would be some time before her stage even gets worked on that Glass Canopy would not interfere with her stage.
 
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