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SG Game Design Discussion

I would certainly like to try it, if it is possible at this point.
 
I could be wrong about all of this, but I'm going to just lump pre-jump and pre-block together since I think it is a combination of the two that is the issue.

What I want (which is probably not in the cards) is for projectiles not to cause pre-jump/pre-block. Namely, I hate how projectiles both lock you down and can hit you with lucky timing making full screen projectile spam more annoying than it already is.

I love that a low reset is the perfect counter to chicken-blocking. Getting hit by a full screen SOID when you up-back feels... awful.

I hate that assists can hit up-backing (holy shit does this make copter good).

I am not sure how I feel about mid/highs putting you into pre-block. It doesn't affect much either way (seemingly).

I agree with your view on jump-ins. It seems counter-intuitive to get locked down when you read the jump-in.
 
IsaVulpes said:
Magic balance trick is/was to make her defence shit as a tradeoff.

The main dumb thing about her I saw was DP-JC when hitting assist + enemy point blocked, as it shut down the entire assist game for free; that's fixed woo!
Never had an issue with her offensive potential.. I mean, there's Filia in this game? So whatever

♠♠♠

Does anyone have a contra opinion for "Preblock should have a vertical limit"?

Filia can be kept out and has stubby normals and can be jabbed out of much of her offense, filia requires meter to convert many of her throws, filia doesnt have Eliza's damage. Eliza has boat and boat xx fierce dp against people trying to keep her out. Eliza has great air to airs whereas filias are lacking. I dont find the Eliza/filia comparisons to be super genuine because of filias lack of great neutral, whereas elizas neutral is ridiculous and Eliza has waaaaaay better throws and more damage.

But rather than simply arguing the point which gets us next to nowhere, because my skill may not be yours, or your Eliza partners skill may not be my Eliza partners skill, and you play parasoul in the matchup probably which as far as ive found is the only matchup where i can actually do alright against Eliza... Meaning it might not be a bad matchup for para...


I'd rather just ask you to record any Eliza matches that you have, so that i can see what you say rather than just take your word for it.


I likewise will do the same as soon as i get back home (which wont be for a week or so) in the future, perhaps just putting up video will serve as a better way in which to convey info rather than forum arguing which resorts to theory and hyperbole...


All i know is that without video evidence, anyone would be rather hard pressed to convince me that Eliza's ridiculous priority and ways to circumvent pushblock, and gross air to airs, and hp dp countering people that try to zone her with there own normals, means that she has "weak or bad defense" neutral game defense is a thing to me... And to me... Is ALWAYS more important than "ive already gotten hit, or they've gotten in and put me in lockdown" defense... But thats how i think, because neutral defense has to be gotten through to make the other defenses apparent.

Different topic:


I dont mind the val buff that much except that i dont feel as if val really needs any buffs. But if there was a buff for her to get... I feel like the vial one makes some of the most sense... Because why shouldnt val... Or any character for that matter not have full control over their own choices?

I personally would like to see vals vials get toned down.. SLIGHTLY, to account for this buff though. So that val would generally NEED to hold a vial, rather than having it be an all around good tactic to always load a vial.

Then again...id like painwheel charges across the board to get a bit faster with less full charged dividends to compensate... But thats never going to happen. So yeah.


Also, i like preblock applying the way it currently does. I dont think that nerfing the range on it would be a good thing... Because i dont like buffs to up/back... OF ANY SORT. Up/back to me is almost perfect as it is now.
 
Dime_x said:
And how to balance her? Even with hurtboxes that are realistic she still seems like she will be stupid good. Her high/low/throw/crossup game is dumb as is her anti pushblock game. I dont know how she will be balanced but she seems to really need it at this point.
Magic balance trick is/was to make her defence shit as a tradeoff.

The main dumb thing about her I saw was DP-JC when hitting assist + enemy point blocked, as it shut down the entire assist game for free; that's fixed woo!
Never had an issue with her offensive potential.. I mean, there's Filia in this game? So whatever

All i know is that without video evidence, anyone would be rather hard pressed to convince me that Eliza's ridiculous priority and ways to circumvent pushblock, and gross air to airs, and hp dp countering people that try to zone her with there own normals, means that she has "weak or bad defense" neutral game defense is a thing to me... And to me... Is ALWAYS more important than "ive already gotten hit, or they've gotten in and put me in lockdown" defense... But thats how i think, because neutral defense has to be gotten through to make the other defenses apparent.
Ridiculous priority will be lessened once she gets actual hurtboxes.

Yes, H.DP and Sweep xx DP and things are *really good*, as well as her normals most probably staying topnotch, and I agree that "stopping the opponent from going in" is more relevant than "he is in, what do I do".
But when most of your neutral game relies on slow airnormals with good range, to really make use of it you need to be able to make the necessary space (Doublejump / general backward speed) and/or the ability to make said normals "safe on whiff" (eg with an air fireball).

Eliza's defensive game is shit, so she wants to go in, but you can't really do something like IAD j.HP with her, due to that being a 19f normal (+ high IAD).
So her gameplan is based around staying at a specific midrange distance, baiting you into going in, then running a train on you with random hit into conversion and death.
Which used to work *REALLY* well with M/H.DP entirely locking out assist play and all her normals being unhittable walls. Now that the DP is fixed and her normals got some hurtboxes, she has a much harder time playing that game; and while her offence is ridiculous if she manages to land that hit, her defence is super shit when she doesn't - Air Super has 6 vuln startup frames, Sekh Super is fully vuln, Sekhmet startup is vuln, DP doesn't really hit anything and is throw vuln, she doesn't have access to a doublejump, and none of her other options are secretly good (such as a low/throw dodging backdash, fast button which moves her hitbox far back / super low, whatever) - so she ends up being a high variance character with a neutral game you have to be weary of but which can be played around.

http://skullgirls.com/forums/index....ent-thread-post-your-videos.4222/#post-152966
I posted viddy here, at 1h03 Woofly switches to Solo Eliza, so you might be able to pull more out of that than the other matches? Dnno

E: Merged this with another post
 
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100% Theoretical but what if there was a mechanic where the more you block, a seperate meter fills up to a cap and once you get a hit in, you get bonus scaling down from 1.3? Possibly 5 successful block instances allows you to activate it and the meter rapidly drains when you're not in block stun. It's a comeback mechanic however it rewards blocking rather than getting hit like most comeback mechanics.
 
The reward for blocking is that you're not dead.

I mean, unless you really want PBGC Showstopper to do 70% damage.
 
One thing I generally like about SG is that it's relatively simple and intuitive. I don't like the idea of separate block meters and comeback mechanics and whatnot.
 
I don't think the reward for *blocking* in this game is.. actually there.
The main thing blocking gives you is PBGC, which is kinda amazing, but ... still a reversal.
If you just block, all you do is delay the inevitable.
Raw pushblocking doesn't actually create enough distance / frame advantage to accomplish much, especially not with the presence of assists.
Natural pushback is .. really really small, and, again, largely irrelevant anyhow due to assists allowing you a way back in.

I would really really like if the reward for blocking extended beyond "Oh, you didn't Reversal there but decided to block instead? And it worked out? Neat! Now you can reversal here instead!", but I have no real clue how to go about it, and that bonus scaling thing seems.. off, if alone because it doesn't fix this "issue" (is there one?) but makes it worse - you don't get a bonus for blocking, you get a bonus for landing a hit shortly after you blocked (which in most cases is gonna be a Reversal/PGBC).

The only thing I could think of would be something like "Coming out of hit/blockstun and blocking something within X frames afterwards generates a burst of meter", so blocking 3 mixups in a row gives you a full bar or something
That sounds kinda very awful against projectile characters though, and is probably broken in ten other places
 
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I thought blocking is... bad? I mean, it's better than getting hit but in general you're at a disadvantage. Should it be rewarded? I mean, if we need to, can we make meter gain from blocking higher than usual?
 
You're rarely at true disadvantage when blocking
 
Yeah, the whole idea is that most moves are unsafe on block. The reward for blocking is that (A) you're not taking damage and (B) you get frame advantage.
 
That got me thinking... Is there any blockstring long enough so that the assist cooldown replenishes in time for a repeat? I figure the assist would be Cerecopter or H Osiris Spiral I suppose?

So that way you never allow the opponent to leave blockstun (of course, disregarding stuff like pushblock, alpha counters, pbgc blablabla).
 
I'm not home, so I can't test it, but a squigly with stance charge might be able to make infinite block stun with spiral or copter
 
Squigly with a charge can make an infinite blockstring without an assist (If you disregard stuff like pushblock, alpha counters, pbgc etc)
Just do s.lk > s.mk > s.hp repeat or something
 
Broken Loose said:
Yeah, the whole idea is that most moves are unsafe on block. The reward for blocking is that (A) you're not taking damage and (B) you get frame advantage.
A doesn't really work because you still take the damage (just a bit later),
and B doesn't *actually* happen against half the cast (or anyone who knows how to use their assists)

Your options on defense, for the most part, are:
1: Reversal
2: Block, Pushblock, then Reversal
3: Block, then hear the commentator say "Wow, nice Block! .. .. Oh well, can't block forever!"

- Blocking a normal mixup in say SF4 means the opponent's blockstring pushes them out of further mixup range, giving you the neutral game back.
- Blocking a normal mixup in SG means you either PBGC, or have to block another 3 mixups before assist cooldown gives you a miniscule frame window to do things (I still wouldn't call it "Frame advantage", cus quite frankly, you don't got any in most cases).
- There are probably character/assist combinations (Headless Fortune is the first thing that comes to mind) who have access to infinite blockstrings which you literally can't escape ever without the use of PBGC.

PBGC is *really really good* and it's rather nice that it is as good as it is (both to force people to think about their strings, and because offence would be plain unstoppable else), but.. it would be nice if *just blocking* actually did something.
I don't think defence in this game works at all without the use of PBGC?
 
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IsaVulpes said:
it would be nice if *just blocking* actually did something.
I don't think defence in this game works at all without the use of PBGC?

Pushblocks are so central to defense in this game, due to PBGC, absolute guard and of course pushing stuff away. Because it already prevents stuff like infinite blockstring cheese, and it also has counterplay through baiting, there's no need in SG for an additional defense system. It's also a very deep system, since there are so many variables in timing and spacing. To be honest I think SG could do fine without even alpha counters.

In a different game you could reward 'just blocking' in a number of ways; reducing damage, building meter, decreasing blockstun, making some kind of burst available. But they would all make the offensive game more rigid in my opinion.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
Your options on defense, for the most part, are:
1: Reversal
2: Block, Pushblock, then Reversal
3: Block, then hear the commentator say "Wow, nice Block! .. .. Oh well, can't block forever!"
I can. I can block forever.



I also don't totally agree with you that pushblocking doesn't accomplish anything (especially since I've been playing a lot of a game that doesn't have pushblock, and frequently finding myself thinking "gosh, sure wish I could pushblock right now"). Like you're right that if you pushblock and they react to the pushblock by calling their assist that you're still in a bad situation. If you wait until after they call their assist though you can usually find a window where you can push some buttons. You're also right that trying to block someone who has Cerecopter is bullshit, but I'm actually okay with that, I think that's an okay reward to get for putting an assist on your team that isn't useful on defense and is not as useful at neutral as things like Hornet Bomber or LnL or what have you.
 
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