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SG Game Design Discussion

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Let's talk about buffs, nerfs, system changes, what our perfect version of SG would look like, how unlikely Mike is to like any of these ideas etc.

I'll start off:

-Remove all "once per combo" arbitrary limits and replace them with something else to limit them; for example make Bella's kanchou wall bounce in such a way that you have to use your otg or one of only a couple of moves that would hit in time to continue the combo, or make filia's hairball dash cancel be limited by hitstun so that you can only link lights from it.

-Improve squigly's neutral in some (small) way


Hopefully we can keep this sort of stuff out of other topics.
 
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Gameplay Discussion was meant to be about the current gameplay and what's going on in it, not what could be improved (although that's how it ended up in the other thread). This is for speculation upon the latter in order to keep the Gameplay Discussion thread focused on what it started of on, and
 
Let's say I have a 5 pages long post which was originally supposed to be a thread on its own (as it's the 2nd Chapter of my ranting on Damage in SG), should I open that as a separate thread still or toss it into here?
 
Th man problem that i have with this thread is i dont think it will get used for its intended purpose that much, and i dont think it will stop balance discussion of a "this character should have this or this is op" type of way... Those things tend to creep into conversation no matter what and they are so close to the original subject matter, that it would be very hard to always stop them mid convo and bring them here.

...having said that... Some things i personally would do (long)

Assists no longer give otg combos or
They scale damage just like throws
Peacock item charge no longer reduces meter built from specials since she lost triple bombs
Painwheel stinger startup decreased, one because it makes flight cancel stinger better, which it could probably use, and 2 because more projectile play would be good for sg imho... Or lower the charge time on lvl2 and 3 stingers.

Bella, give her regular command grabs more recovery. I cant neutral jump a close command grab with pw and punish with a descending (normal) attack... Bella has very little recovery on the close range one.
Merry go rilla gets a nerf as to its close range range... Right now, one cr.lk tick into merry go rilla is enough to push the opponent into its range... Makes it kinda redundant and super easy to use for tick throws..
But maybe thats the point, still doesnt feel right to use or play against for me when its supposed to be the LONG range grab, and the other one is supposed to be short ranged. Make it so that using them is as hard to do as trying to potshot moving opponents with peacocks lvl1 mp and hp items.

Give filia some kind of recovery on her airballs that is more noticeable than it is currently. Currently the way to counter them is to jump in the air and block them and then counter in recovery... Which is like basically impossible to do with any sort of consistency. So i personally would like her to have more recovery on them, on block.
I find most everything else to be fine.

Though i like all of ages changes as well.
 
Dime_x said:
Give filia some kind of recovery on her airballs that is more noticeable than it is currently. Currently the way to counter them is to jump in the air and block them and then counter in recovery... Which is like basically impossible to do with any sort of consistency.

(sorry for going off-topic!)
 
I agree with removing once-per-combo limits if possible, however:
- Guaranteeing that Kanchou can't be caught after would basically require her to remain in the animation for long enough that Peacock would have almost reached the floor if she were hit at the tip of Cerebella's fingers. Else there will be special case followups. This is likely to make you unable to catch, say, Double at all.
- Allowing Airball to only combo into lights, I already tried it. It has two problems...1) that gives you four followups (s.LP/s.LK/j.LK/j.LP) which is more than enough to full-stage carry and increases her damage quite a bit; and 2) her s.LK is 9f and her s.MK is 10f, so either it'd be a 1f link to get the light attack to combo at all, which I'm against because arbitrary difficulty, or you'd be able to 1f link MK if you had 2f to get the s.LK. Or her frame data has to get messed with.
- Squigly with multiple HK divekicks...people with multiple staggers?

Assist scaling etc is already being tried.
Item charge not reducing Peacock's meter is a good point! I'll try that.
The rest of Dime's stuff reads like a "Please make other characters more susceptible to Painwheel/me" rather than a "this would help the game in general". But that's usually the case. (^.^)
 
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One thing I'd like to see considered/refuted is shifting around the way scaling works, with the goal of making the starter and random hits matter more. I'm thinking of a function going roughly like, say...

1st hit: 130%
2nd hit: 110%
3rd hit: 90%
4th hit: 70%
5th hit: 55%
6th hit: 40%
7th hit: 30%
8th hit: 25%
9th hit: 20%
10th+ hit: 15% (which is to say, same minimum scaling as it currently is)

This would, essentially, give you a noticeable damage increase when starting combos off optimal starters compared to non-optimal stuff, make random hits matter more and probably also buff resets.
Force scaling for assists would still be in effect, as they frontload a lot of damage. Counterhit damage buff would be redundant, though.
Please tell me why this is actually a bad idea.
 
VIVIT_rv00 said:
Please tell me why this is actually a bad idea.
The problem is that even if you scaled the later hits down to shit people would still use their 30 second long 100 hit combos just to get an extra 2 pixels off their opponent's health bar because it's safer to do that than to reset and, if need be, they can just reset near the end. Not to mention they could just DHC if they were running out of time and had lower health because of the effect that has on scaling.
 
I know about lower minimum scaling creating these sorts of combos. That's why I didn't propose a change to the minimum scaling. It's right there with the damage numbers. All that happens is that you get to it faster (and start at a higher level). This isn't primarily an idea to weaken combos, it's more of a method of making the starter matter more.

Also DHC scaling can remain at its current 55%, maybe get bumped up 5 or 10% to compensate for the function falling faster. Assist, throw and stagger force scale can be at 60%, too.
 
It is. Sorry, my bad.
 
Well, first off, last time I read about scaling (which to be fair was a long time ago) minimum scaling was 20%, which is more than 15%. Now your proposal sounds to me like it'll just increase damage of combos in general, although it does still achieve its goal of buffing resets. Also some characters have it easier when it comes to optimal starters (i.e Filia) than others (Cerebella comes to mind), so it'd shift the balance a bit there too.
 
Mike_Z said:
(reasons)...
- Squigly with multiple HK divekicks...people with multiple staggers?)

Figures there'd be some practical stuff keeping the once-per-combo stuff in. For some reason the limit on otgs and staggers doesn't bother me so much. They feel more like universal rules even if they're not that different from the way kanchou now works.

Squigly's HK divekick and Painwheel's qcf+lp I still kinda dislike the limit on, I think I'd prefer if they were balanced around always having the same effect. Maybe the key difference for me is that staggers and otgs stand out visually from other effects.

At the risk of starting stuff I'll regret later, I'm interested in what you think about Bella's command grab recoveries. I am guessing that a general rule of thumb is for a longer range command grab to have longer recovery, but apart from that I don't have much insight into how balancing a grappler works. Dime's not the only one who's complained to me about how safe a tick throw into diamond drop seems, and I don't really remember being punished on reaction for it much if ever.
 
I would like Grab Bag to have invincible startup and a few active frames. Grab bag seems really hard to want to use, and unless I'm grievously mistaken there's no possible followup. Still be techable, but would allow you to try and predict and punish air stuff. I guess it would make things like air reseting Cerebella hard, since the only possible air reset would be air grab, which gets teched. No invincibility Xframes after being hit so mashing Grab Bag as a reversal isn't an option?

I also think that I would really like the game if grabs all around should scale deeper, my suggestion being 25% like Deflector. Right now it feels like grab resets, air and ground, are too strong in most cases. When comboing, grabs do enough damage to really want to do them (over considering whether you should). If grabs were 25%, then it would make them a mind game over a 50/50. If they were 25%, then you would have to think about whether the opponent wants to get significantly more damage with a hit, or if they want to go for the safer-yet-minimal-damage with a grab. And on a grab, you would have to go for another reset soon to get your damage's worth. Another low damage grab or a high damage hit? And depending on how much health your opponent had could affect how both of you thought about the incoming reset. "I have low health... so he's going to go for a safer option that should kill!" or "I have a lot of health. He's going for a hit to get that damage". And on the attackers side of it, "he has a lot of health, he won't expect a second grab", or "I'll go for the hit, since his health is so low he'll expect a grab." It also seems like you could read the player more, too. More aggressive/greedy players would go for hits more often, where defensive players would go for grabs, where intelligent players would go for the reset not expected at that time.

I can't really think of much else I want that isn't too selfish. I'm wondering why Cereblla's air grab is so relatively difficult to follow up compared to everyone else now (with Peacock's grab change and Bigband's air grab seeming to say "comboing after air grab easily is a thing"), but I'm fine the way it is I guess.
 
Dime_x said:
Bella, give her regular command grabs more recovery. I cant neutral jump a close command grab with pw and punish with a descending (normal) attack.
Can't you fly-unfly-punish MGR?
 
DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
Well, first off, last time I read about scaling (which to be fair was a long time ago) minimum scaling was 20%, which is more than 15%. Now your proposal sounds to me like it'll just increase damage of combos in general, although it does still achieve its goal of buffing resets. Also some characters have it easier when it comes to optimal starters (i.e Filia) than others (Cerebella comes to mind), so it'd shift the balance a bit there too.

It's probably not a good idea because you don't get optimal starters that often, strictly speaking. Most resets happen off a light, or a throw, or a lockdown attack or something like that so their damage would end up being nerfed. (I don't quite know how minimum scaling works in specific, but it's different for above/below-1k hits. One of them was 15%...)

I suppose buffing the damage stray hits do still has some merit, though. They don't quite matter when compared to, well, any combo situation. But perhaps I'm in the wrong game for that.
 
Bella is the only character who can't combo after any of her normal grabs mid-screen iirc, and she is the grappler of the game. If we're going to increase the recovery on her grabs, then they need to be buffed in some other way. I think the grappler having really good command grabs (normal grab recovery in this case) is fine. Needing to choose between the grab that throws behind her and the one that has a dead zone up-close is hard enough as it is.

I think you can leave normal grabs alone now. Also, in agreement with all assist starters scaling combos.
 
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VIVIT_rv00 said:
It's probably not a good idea because you don't get optimal starters that often, strictly speaking. Most resets happen off a light, or a throw, or a lockdown attack or something like that so their damage would end up being nerfed. (I don't quite know how minimum scaling works in specific, but it's different for above/below-1k hits. One of them was 15%...)

I suppose buffing the damage stray hits do still has some merit, though. They don't quite matter when compared to, well, any combo situation. But perhaps I'm in the wrong game for that.
I don't think it's a bad aim to encourage optimal chain starters and buff the first few hits of a combo, but I don't think the solution lies in damage scaling. Personally I think a stricter IPS would be the solution, one that doesn't let you do whatever you want with your first few hits free of charge, maybe the first hit or two, but with the first chain being completely free of any charge (bar damage scaling, which people can just offset by making their combo longer) people aren't going to want to take a risk with very little reward for succeeding.

Basically my stance is that we don't need to buff things that people should be using, we need to weaken the things they're using instead so they see that there is an alternative that actually gives a bigger reward than they used to get, even if it involves them actually, you know, focusing on the game more.
 
View619 said:
Bella is the only character who can't combo after any of her normal grabs mid-screen iirc, and she is the grappler of the game. If we're going to increase the recovery on her grabs, then they need to be buffed in some other way. I think the grappler having really good command grabs (normal grab recovery in this case) is fine. Needing to choose between the grab that throws behind her and the one that has a dead zone up-close is hard enough as it is.

I think you can leave normal grabs alone now. Also, in agreement with all assist starters scaling combos.

Yes, give Cerebella MORE versatile tools. That's EXACTLY what she needs. It's not like a grappler who doesn't even need to grapple to be effective is good enough.
 
ClarenceMage said:
Yes, give Cerebella MORE versatile tools. That's EXACTLY what she needs. It's not like a grappler who doesn't even need to grapple to be effective is good enough.

Lol, so you're fine with giving her situational grabs more recovery while giving them nothing in return? I see, why don't we nerf something on one of your characters just because and give nothing in return? Just ignore the fact that she gets nothing off of her normal grabs outside of the corner and she can't even convert off of her main grab (DD) without a meter. Meaning, her only scary grab is the one that cost a meter, you know which one that is right?
 
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View619 said:
Lol, so you're fine with giving her situational grabs more recovery while giving them nothing in return? I see, why don't we nerf something on one of your characters just because and give nothing in return? Just ignore the fact that she gets nothing off of her normal grabs outside of the corner and she can't even convert off of her main grab (DD) without a meter. Meaning, her only scary grab is the one that cost a meter, you know which one that is right?


I understand what you are saying, but... Bellas grabs are anything but "situational" you can literally should you choose to always use mgr. just dash in and cr.lk blocked or hit, then mgr. if your dash was absolutely point blank then the mgr wont hit, but if its a real game it will be perfect range 98% of the time. And you as a bella player, get full combo from it... Were i a bella player i would stay away from DD and just use mgr. with some good ol excelebella thrown in once in a blue moon ... It works.

The thing is, like i said the dead zone on mgr is like really small, which is what makes those 2 command grabs so redundant... Just use mgr.

And Clarence Mage is right, she really should have to use her throws to win... But so many times ive played against good bellas that dont need to hit with a grapple... And still win. I dont mind so much per se...but to give a character that is that powerful so many command grabs is just... Upsetting.


But i digress, i want bella to be good, i want every character to be good. I just want them to make sense as well, and in my mind grapples that have little recovery dont make sense, same as techable ones dont make sense. Also i forgot, but personally i could REALLY go for her air command grab to get 25% more damage... I forgot about that move, but yeah for its application i dont think it does enough damage, personally.


Lol, and besides i never really meant for any of those things i mentioned up top to actually be implemented, though yes, were i designing the game, which I'm not, i would make those changes... In a heartbeat (including bellas air command grab getting a damage buff)
 
Dime_x said:
I understand what you are saying, but... Bellas grabs are anything but "situational" you can literally should you choose to always use mgr. just dash in and cr.lk blocked or hit, then mgr. if your dash was absolutely point blank then the mgr wont hit, but if its a real game it will be perfect range 98% of the time.

I thought the whole point of bella having different throw ranges was for creating a yomi stack around pushblocking the things she'd use to pressure/tic?

i.e., pushblocking c.LK saves you from 236+throw, but fucks you over if you pushblock it and they continue into c.MP to advance and then MGR, where pushblocking that c.MP makes the MGR whiff

The thing is, like i said the dead zone on mgr is like really small, which is what makes those 2 command grabs so redundant... Just use mgr.

They feel right to me, and I don't play Bella.

And Clarence Mage is right, she really should have to use her throws to win... But so many times ive played against good bellas that dont need to hit with a grapple... And still win. I dont mind so much per se...but to give a character that is that powerful so many command grabs is just... Upsetting.

There were Potemkins that made a living entirely off of charge punches and approach mixups, and lots of other examples of grapplers exploiting people's fear of those grapples without ever actually having to use them.

But i digress, i want bella to be good, i want every character to be good. I just want them to make sense as well, and in my mind grapples that have little recovery dont make sense

I think it's kind of a non-issue in this game. I feel that with momentum in this game being as powerful as it is, if she doesn't get a connection when applying a 50/50, she loses all momentum and that's bad enough for a character like her that can't really regain it for a long time after losing it.
 
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1. you could be right about that. But in my experience if someone is pushblocking your cr.lk... Its more pertinent to simply change up its timing than to go for some exotic pushblock bait, also, that pushblock thing that you mention, doesnt work against upback... So its not like its some great anti pushblock mechanic, you have to use it to anti pushblock and then yomi them staying on the ground instead of pushblocking into a jump

2. Have you played other fighting games with grapplers in them not named guilty gear? Potemkin is a good example, but yeah i havent played much if any gg so perhaps thats where the disconnect comes from. I like grapplers to be good... But to be grapplers. I dont know if that relly applies to this convo though so I'll leave it at that.

3. Bella has some ridiculous tools for regaining pressure:

Her sweep is super long range and is 0 on block, does a grip of damage and can be canceled into run on hit or block and is probably at plus frames when canceled... And that moves her forward.

Her dash jump is quite good and she can double jump with it, plus she has j.mp which basically obliterates like everything airborn and is a great jumpin.... Bellas air attacking priority is crazy good.

Her dash empty jump when combined with an assist is crazy good because when she lands she can cr.lk which is ludicrously fast and has crazy range.

She can poke at off moments with F+hp or her sweep which both let her command a considerable amount of space.


I mean shes certainly not op, but lets not get it twisted, shes damn good.

:)
 
Dime_x said:
1. you could be right about that. But in my experience if someone is pushblocking your cr.lk... Its more pertinent to simply change up its timing than to go for some exotic pushblock bait

Changing timing on the c.LK doesn't change the timing of the pushblock. Pushblock is a reactive response to something putting you in blockstun; not something pre-empt on a read.

also, that pushblock thing that you mention, doesnt work against upback... So its not like its some great anti pushblock mechanic, you have to use it to anti pushblock and then yomi them staying on the ground instead of pushblocking into a jump

They very well might jump, fly, or IAD. In a whole multitude of directions. I'm not saying it's the spiraling trap of systemic doom that starts with c.LK, I'm saying it's one permutation stemming from it that beats another.

2. Have you played other fighting games with grapplers in them not named guilty gear? Potemkin is a good example, but yeah i havent played much if any gg so perhaps thats where the disconnect comes from. I like grapplers to be good... But to be grapplers. I dont know if that relly applies to this convo though so I'll leave it at that.

Think of how many times Hugo actually landed a throw in most 3S matches, as opposed to how many times he slapped, kicked, tripped, or clotheslined someone.

3. Bella has some ridiculous tools for regaining pressure:

Her sweep
Her dash jump is quite good and she can double jump with it,
j.mp (air to air)
j.mp (jump in)
air priority in general
Her empty jump combined with an assist
cr.lk
F+hp or her
sweep

She's in the game for sure, but I wouldn't go so far as to call any of that ridiculous.

As a PW/Double player I would strongly disagree with the notion of air to air priority. As for her c.LK, again, PW/Double has one of the best in the game and I don't feel it's the end of the world for me if Bella has a decent one.

Her ground approaches -and this is important- relies on tugboat assists, command run mixups, or the perceieved threat of jump-ins. While those things are all great when you decide on one and get it right, they're not great (and in some run/armor cases, abysmal) when wrong, which I think you're overlooking a bit.

As for the jump-ins, again I feel other characters really have the edge on her most of the time. There's too many fibers, updos, and pillars, let alone what the point character's doing for AA or spacing.

I really feel we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
 
@hlvn


Pushblocking the first light attack of a ground chain is generally anticipatory. It says it in the mvc3 guide and i think most people would agree more or less.

And agreed to disagree on everything else, we have different perspectives from playing different people. I dont think either of us can change the other players mind and im so convinced that im right, i dont really care if someone else thinks im wrong...I assume it goes the same for you.
 
I don't get why you would want to increase recovery on Bella's grabs
How many other characters have mixups you can punish?

Overheads (grounded or instant or IADs) = Frame advantage on block
Lows = At worst slight frame disadvantage for most chars
Throws = Similar to the cmd grabs, 'punisheable' but not really

Bella is already comparably shafted in this department thanks to Kanchou and lack of a safe string after c.LK
 
@IsaVulpes

How many other characters have mixups that work against high AND low block from almost half a screen away?

How many other characters have unblockables they can cancel into?

You do have a point that most characters mixups arent easily punishable, but the point of safe on block starters is lost on me cause there are few characters with truly safe on block chains. Double only for 2 meters, painwheel only for 2 meters (flight is NOT safe) filia only high attacks, fortune... Fortune doesnt have any that i know of... Etc etc

Val and peacock have safe on block starters though.

And bella can always end her string in sweep which is plus 0... And has so much range that shes still in range of it after having been pushblocked.

But i also have a point when i talk about the only character in the game that has an unblockable into full combo with no assist that reaches near half screen...

That aint nothing to scoff at, nor is the fact that bellas "mixups" arent techable, ARE unblockable, and DO reach halfscreen.



Its no biggie though, its just a sore spot that a command grab isnt beatable by neutral jump>falling jump normal.
 
How many characters have mixups that can be avoided solely by jumping? Kanchou, pummel horse, MGR, Diamond Drop and Ultimate Showstopper can all be avoided by someone just holding up and back, and 3 of them are easily punishable regardless of the situation, while DD and MGR can be punished by anyone with decent air mobility. If you're going to complain about Excellebella now then bear in mind that's only 1 of 7 obvious mixup options for Bella, and she's only likely to use it if you've been constantly escaping her other mixups with a backwards jump, complaining about that would be the same as complaining about jumping grabs which, as I'm sure you know, is something every character can do to punish chicken blockers.

And half a screen for MGR? No. Or are you talking about Ultimate Showstopper, which costs meter and is ridiculously easy to punish? Either way it sounds like the concept of spacing is completely lost on you. If you run head first at a grappler in any other game you're not going to be successful. Bella is no different, stay back, bait out her most obvious tools (all of which are easy to punish with the simple method provided in my previous paragraph) and then deal damage to her. Sure, this isn't going to work when someone is one step ahead of you, but in that case get one step ahead of them so their tricks won't work anymore.
 
Just want it to be easier to rush Cerebella down. If anything she needs to be changed to make it scarier to be close/rushing her down.
 
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Mr. X said:
Just want it to be easier to rush Cerebella down. If anything she needs to be changed to make it scarier to be close/rushing her down.
It shouldn't be easy to rush bella down.

It shouldn't be fun or easy to rush any grappler down.

You should be fearful of being near a grappler at all times.

And HERE, we get into actual game design, and not just "damn bella gurl".

How strong should a grappler be, with nerfed damage and many but none of them very strong tool set be at close range?

I wouldn't mind more recovery on her grabs if she could actually get a non meter follow up on Excellebella, Grab Bag, and Dd midscreen.
 
DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
How many characters have mixups that can be avoided solely by jumping?
All of them.

I should really stop right there. I shouldnt have to explain that jumpjng back gets you out of every characters ground mixup and that the things that those characters have to prevent that... Are the same things that bella has:

Cr.lk them as they jump.
Jump toward them and resume pressure against an opponent that is running away.
Use bellas crazy hitbox normals to beat damn near anything the opponent does in the air.

BUT. you seem to lack some component of reading comprehension... Like others, so let me spell it out... Again:

I dont mind any of bellas tools, some i think are weird to be on a grappler... But its whatever. The only thing i think is that her dd and and her mgr could use some more recovery to bring them in line with traditional command grabs... Meaning slower recovery.

Thats it. Anything past that is you guys. Youve all stated weird things like bella not having a safe string ender (she does have one and i showed what it was) youve stated that her mixup is completely negatable by upback and ive shown and stated that the very same thing applies to every character. (You cant high/low mixup airborn characters, you cant low/throw airborn characters, but you can frame trap/airthrow airborn characters aaaand bella can just like anyone else), and even somewhat less to bella since she has the only unblockable and untechable ground to air throw.

Like always i just think you guys are grasping at straws to try and make your arguments seem justified.

I mean lol i already admitted to isa that he had a point about other characters mixups not being easily able to counter for crazy damage. I just countered that point with the fact that no other character has unblockable moves on the ground that reach near halfscreen.

And then you mention jumping away... Lol like people dont jump away from painwheel, or val, or squigly. Every character has to deal with that and jumping away negates all these characters mixup advantages.

But like i said, i dont want bella to lose any tools, i just want some more recovery on her unblockable attacks... I mean if painwheel can have her flight screwed over by not having an unfly, by having a very low height restriction and by not having a double jump so that she can get to the crazy heights on her own that other characters have access to easily... Then i dont see why bellas command grabs cant get another 5 frames or so of recovery so that neutral jumps can actually punish them rat the very least so that more advantage can be had against them.

Also remember that if the bella never gets her grabs jumped (meaning that she predicts right everytime she uses them) then this more recovery... Does nothing. It only penalizes her for missing command grabs... She still has the range, still has the speed, and still has all the comboability that she always had.


But, like i said, this is just what i would do. I dont expect this to actually happen because the designer is semi biased to grapplers. Not that that is a bad thing cause i love grapplers... But bella actually strays pretty far from the stereotypical grappler archetype.
 
You need to be careful with how you exaggerate Dime_X, it sounds like you don't know what you're talking about in some instances (no disrespect).

Everybody has safe on block starters; every character can chain lights together and confirm on the second hit, those are safe.

Bella does not have high/low/unblockable mix-ups from half a screen away, that's just silly

Grapplers not needing to grab you to kill you is not new. If you keep holding up vs a grappler and the he keeps going low to punish it, then you'll die just as fast as if you're sitting there holding down back.

Bella is not Gief and DD/MGR is not SPD. Notice how the only grab she has that is similar to most other grapplers (Ultimate Showstopper) costs METER and is EASILY punishable if you hold up. Stop comparing Bella grabs to Gief/Pot, her standard command grabs are not like their grabs. If you want to punish her standard grabs, learn to treat them like normal grabs and find a punish for those.

For a grab with a restriction (MGR dead zone is an issue even if you'e ticking into it from c.lk, because then you lose your only good option mid screen to beat jumps, and no sweep is not a good replacement for c.lk in SG), another grab that throws the opponent behind Bella and can only be followed up with super, and none of them are 1/2 frame start-up, I don't understand why anybody is complaining about not being able to punish them like "traditional" grappler grabs.

With that being said, I approve of increasing the recovery of DD/MGR...if they receive 1/2 frame start-up each in return. Also, Heat Knuckle Excellebella would make that move useful vs jumps outside of the corner, it seems way too situational at the moment. The only change I would make to Grab Bag is removing the taunt at the end that allows the opponent to tech away, OR make it end in a sliding knock down so you can keep up pressure and have a reason to actually use it. I think it does the most damage/builds the most meter out of all of her raw grabs minus follow-ups, it's just so difficult to land and the payoff isn't too great.
 
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If Diamond Drop is going to be whiff-punishable by jumping, I want to be able to convert it into a full combo anywhere on the screen.

Right now its almost a liability to use it since it throws your opponent full screen, gets you very little damage and un-corners your opponent. Sure, MGR is a good alternative for most situations but DD is so much worse it begs the question of why its even in the game to begin with.

I also want to be able to combo from her air throw form any height (just like every other character in the game).
 
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Dime_x said:
All of them.
Erm, no. If you jump back against Val or Filia when they go for a mix up you're still likely to be hit. You will be blocking but you will still be under pressure and they can chain into a safe ender. Meanwhile if you jump against Bella you have an easy punish in most situations, the only exceptions are when you play as Parasoul, and maybe Double depending on how quick her Barrel drop move happens (haven't tested with her). Every other character in the game has either an airdash or a move that stops them from rising and let's you move down with an attack quickly enough to punish her whiffed grabs. Fortune can air-dash, Peacock can air-dash, Filia can air-dash, Val can air-dash, Squigly can Dive Kick, Painwheel can flight cancel and Bella can j.HP.

Also please refrain from saying "near half screen", more like a quarter:
I5NnnoQ.jpg

kolagfr.jpg

(hit box on USS is only visible during zoom, but it extends as far as the tips of her fingers in this image)

And that last comment about Mike not wanting to weaken grapplers because he played as them? Bella sure isn't top tier in the community's eyes (see the tier thread) and the only thing you want weakened is command grab recovery, so he's certainly done a good job of not letting his bias getting in the way of his decisions. In fact, he even nerfed her damage output not too long ago so saying he's not going to weaken his favourite type of fighter when he's done so already doesn't say good things for the validity of what you write.
 
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I'd still say about half screen. Only a tiny fraction of the most forward part of a hurtbox has to touch a tiny fraction of the most forward part of a hitbox (which is why its deadzone looks huge though you have to be right in front of her to actually be in it).

I'd also say that the hyperbole on all sides in this thread is insane.

I'm actually fine with it as is in the neutral.

I think it gets a tad too strong mashed out relative to other blockbusters, but I would say I'm generally on team "leave it alone".

Also, Dime is right on PW. She cannot realistically punish it. flight cancel into whatever is tight enough as it. You'll only get the punish if you predict it. Sure as shit isn't happening on reaction.
 
Because's it's a shit fucking matchup.

Everyone knows it's a shit fucking matchup.

It's been that way since Vanilla, and it will probably always be that way.

Just how Bella-Fortune is a shit fucking matchup.
 
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