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Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

RE: tear disappears on throw

NOOOOOO, I heavily, heavily do not want this. Not only does this take away multiple resets with tear + throw but it also takes away a few damage options + throw extensions. Timing it isn't really that difficult, and as long as you are aware of what you put on screen. I personally have never had this problem except once and then I found a ridiculously ambiguous cross up off it.

So like I said damage, mixups, setup etc. all disappear in exchange for making the character more boring. That's a big no from me.
 
dekillsage said:
getting top 8 at a mostly mid level monthly entry level tournament doesn't mean much... I don't even remember the last time double got top 3 during this time lol

What are we talking about again? lol
Pretty sure she's been in top 8 for every event we've ever had with over 40 entrants, even during the time between Encore and BoG super. That's the point I made. She doesn't have to be popular, or as good as she was, or in Top 3, or winning events. She was still making a consistent showing everywhere, which is more than some characters can say.
 
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idk Double could probably stand to be toned down further. I never see what character they have and I think, "uh oh, this is a hard matchup for Double." Feels like every matchup is either good or even for her. The nerfs to monster and level 5 and stuff didn't really change that.
 
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mcpeanuts said:
idk Double could probably stand to be toned down further. I never see what character they have and I think, "uh oh, this is a hard matchup for Double." Feels like every matchup is either good or even for her. The nerfs to monster and level 5 and stuff didn't really change that.
I sort of agree with this...however,

I don't think just because she's even (or at an advantage) in just about every MU except maybe 4chan is bad. I think she could be toned down in terms of stuff at neutral or in terms of flash step. I haven't looked that much into her to say specifically but she seems to have the "not bad" effect that I've seen from other characters in other fighting games. She doesn't really have a downside I can see except she's not super good at anything. It's kind of weird maybe I'm off base but I think making her more lopsided might make her better and worse in some spots may make her overall a better character. I don't play double but this is just from what I've seen from personal matches and watching streams, tournaments etc.
 
I dont see the warrant for a nerf to double.
She has tools that you specfically for any situation and you chose wrong. You die as opposed to say fukua who would toss m shadow jlp or jhk like a mad man.
Her utility is unique and makes double, double.
 
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Fukuas neutral is even better with these changes. Gonna repost essentially what I said in sgilluminati
If you are dropping fukua because she lost M shadow, you are not a fukua main


Facts. Has SO MUCH better stuff going for her. Just gotta actually think in neutral rather send out a move that is >>>>> all other moves in neutral in the game. New fukua m shadow IMO gives her so much better utility than old m shadow. Just apply it now.

EDIT: P.S. Two fireballs would actually break her
 
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Zidiane said:
Pretty sure she's been in top 8 for every event we've ever had with over 40 entrants, even during the time between Encore and BoG super. That's the point I made. She doesn't have to be popular, or as good as she was, or in Top 3, or winning events. She was still making a consistent showing everywhere, which is more than some characters can say.

I'm pretty sure Cerebella is the most highly played character after double, so.... You could say the same about bella, yet You're asking for bella buffs in this thread when she is already fine
 
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The issue with Double is more that she has good tools for any situation. Is there a matchup where Double players feel scared? When I mess around with her, I always feel comfortable.
 
BTW @Mike_Z just checking in again about Bella's hurtboxes as gllt/drewski brought up since I didn't see you respond. Does this example not work? I'd be okay with trying to find more/better examples of this, cause I know (as you do too probably) that almost everyone complains about comboing on bella being more difficult than others and I really want to try and do something about this one thing. I know that there are things you can do to adjust in a lot of cases (including that example), but it feels weird that it happens for so many characters/players and it's not as easy to see visually as say comboing in Squigly.

RE: About Parasoul Throw/Tears

VIVIT_rv00 said:
I don't want that. Parasoul's appeal comes from properly placing and using tears, and having to adapt combos to certain tear formations is part of that. As she also has two grounded overheads she doesn't need to rely on throw setups when tears would complicate them.

I agree somewhat in that part of the appeal of Parasoul is from learning to place tears or learning to adapt combos depending on their location/detonation timing, but I feel like the case for throws is very different. For ground throws, especially midscreen, there are times/scenarios where there is just nothing you can do and the tear can/will mess you up****. This is very true of airthrow (there is countless footage of players throwing tears for incoming setup, land an airthrow, and then the tear immediately explodes on the opponent before you land, often times nothing they could do on the way down). And having to play around the fact that you can't do something fundamentally basic like a throw because of this feels terrible from a FG playing standpoint, at least to me. It's always something I hated, and learned to avoid stuff like that, and it sucks when this is a thing esp. when (IMO) there isn't MUCH gain from this kind of thing. There's no point in there being a useless frustration for the character if it doesn't benefit much I think.

Basically, you just amounted it to saying "you can play around it", which while true, I think the fact that it can be removed without getting rid of a lot of fundamental*/important* tech to relieve a core frustration means its something worth looking into and that we probably won't miss much or change the core of the character much/at all.

****I think Egret Call jLP jHP works off of most cases of this anyways? But it feels weird and I'm down for making this simpler to convert off of, not trying to say that it's strictly speaking impossible.

gllt said:
RE: Tears disappearing if you throw: voting against. I have lots of setups that die over this. However I've already said losing setups is no big deal for a change that needs to happen. If other Para players like this, rip my setups, change it. I see why it could be useful.

Masqman said:
RE: tear disappears on throw

NOOOOOO, I heavily, heavily do not want this. Not only does this take away multiple resets with tear + throw but it also takes away a few damage options + throw extensions. Timing it isn't really that difficult, and as long as you are aware of what you put on screen. I personally have never had this problem except once and then I found a ridiculously ambiguous cross up off it.

So like I said damage, mixups, setup etc. all disappear in exchange for making the character more boring. That's a big no from me.

If you have tech that requires this, then I'd strongly suggest you try to share it so we can see how much we really NEED it. Parasoul has a LOOOOOOOT of specific/cool tech things that everyone makes or does, and it's hard to tell if this is (yet) another "hey look at this cool hard to setup thing that's pretty neat but not strictly speaking super awesome/necessary" or if it's something more important. I have tech/conversions off of lots of little scenarios for stuff like this just as well, but I don't mind at all sacrificing it for something to make the character feel more streamlined to play, or at least for this case anyways.
 
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This is not referring to anyone this is just about the discussion topic of Parasoul tears (that I'm late to)

Don't change tears. If the tears mess something up that's on the player's decision to grab in that situation. No character deserves a "get out of jail free card" because their tool wasn't convenient at that time. The depth of tears' usage is what makes Parasoul fun.
 
Zidiane said:
She was still making a consistent showing everywhere, which is more than some characters can say.
How surprising that a character which was a must-pick for 2 versions and very fucking good afterwards doesn't just get dropped like a hot rock?
Also surprising that a character which can go anywhere on a team, and kinda on any team, has a notable count of tournament appearances..

Since the inception of the game, the top picked characters are Double,Filia,Parasoul,Bella; and then later Fukua+BigBand were added to those.
Simply because those characters are playable anywhere, everywhere. Doesn't even have anything to do with them being good!

The "problem" with character variety in this game is that Mike didn't want characters who are "just the assist", so he made all the characters with notably good assists/dhcs also strong on point; and this isn't even yet considering that most of those have 2 positions from the get-go (Mid/Anchor), rather than just 1.
On the other hand, characters that are notably good on point didn't all get good Assists/DHCs (more like the opposite)..
.. So we have a bunch of characters that are 'designated anchors', who also work everywhere else, and a bunch of characters that are 'designated points', who you will largely only see on point (or at best as "fake anchors", where they're 3rd on a team so they can Tag/DHC in asap).

If you have 3 people who like Fortune and Double, but one of them likes Val more than Fortune and Bella more than Double, while the third finds Peacock a bit more fun than Fortune and thinks Band is better than Double, you'll get:
1) Fortune/Double
2) Val/Bella/Double
3) Pea/Double/Band
-> Despite all 3 people "wanting" to play Fortune+Double, we ended up with 3 Doubles and just 1 Fortune.
*This alone* makes determining character strength based on the count of tournament placings grossly inaccurate, and I haven't yet started on just general character popularity, ease of play, topplayers "winning with anyone", etc

#####

On Para Tears:

In days past, I voted for Snaps not detonating tears, because there will never be a scenario where you'd want it to happen. It was still largely avoidable, but just felt cumbersome.
For throws it's different; it's entirely possible to create a scenario where the exploding tear after a throw (or airthrow) can be used to your advantage - so I am rather against it.

IF something were to be done, then "Throws detonate Tears" makes a lot more sense to me than "Throws make Tear just disappear".
You'd still need a different route, but now with plenty hitstun it should be trivial to find a combo path.
The animations already create those big flames on both throws anyway, so visually it wouldn't be too off either.
 
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Zidiane said:
Pretty sure she's been in top 8 for every event we've ever had with over 40 entrants, even during the time between Encore and BoG super. That's the point I made. She doesn't have to be popular, or as good as she was, or in Top 3, or winning events. She was still making a consistent showing everywhere, which is more than some characters can say.

Okay, Cerebella is not one of those characters.
40 entrants is monthly level of entrants...why does top 8 matter here? Top 8 doesn't mean....

mcpeanuts said:
idk Double could probably stand to be toned down further. I never see what character they have and I think, "uh oh, this is a hard matchup for Double." Feels like every matchup is either good or even for her. The nerfs to monster and level 5 and stuff didn't really change that.

So you want her to be worse for the sake of having a more difficult time winning match ups? That doesn't make any sense to me. Beowulf and Fortune beat double.

fenster said:
If you have tech that requires this, then I'd strongly suggest you try to share it so we can see how much we really NEED it.

Don't take away potential for boring consistency on something that is already consistent zzzzz
 
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So the Peacock bang buff thing is pretty cool and all, but now I've had it happen where my opponent is in the corner and tries to jump at me, to which they meet M bang. Instead of bouncing into me for a combo, the bounce is so strong they actually go over my head, actually hurting my positioning and not letting me combo in the slightest. I think overall it's still better with the increased knockback, but now it has a chance of actually going over your head, so to speak.
 
mcpeanuts said:
idk Double could probably stand to be toned down further. I never see what character they have and I think, "uh oh, this is a hard matchup for Double." Feels like every matchup is either good or even for her. The nerfs to monster and level 5 and stuff didn't really change that.
I'm not really familiar with matchups outside of my own characters, but is double a HARD matchup for any character? I feel like this works both ways and it evens out.

EDIT: NVM I guess Sage answered my question above.

fenster said:
BTW @Mike_Z just checking in again about Bella's hurtboxes as gllt/drewski brought up since I didn't see you respond. Does this example not work? I'd be okay with trying to find more/better examples of this, cause I know (as you do too probably) that almost everyone complains about comboing on bella being more difficult than others and I really want to try and do something about this one thing.
I did some testing today and I've actually found that i tend to have more issues with RESETS on Cerebella than combos. Like on fortune s.hk > l fiber > air throw doesn't like to work on her. j.lk adc j.lp crossup straight up WON'T work on her. With Squigly, launch j.lk delay j.mk grave digger crossup has the tendency to whiff (especially on block). Headless fortune anything on her can be messy at times. Squigly throw or combo into Opera how she bounces tends to feel inconsistent (especially if center stage is also involved, but this sort of thing is why Fuzzy uses tremolo opera as an ender instead). It feels harder to link s.lp after j.hk in a squigly combo on her but that could just be my mind playing tricks on me. I know sprouts has told me that her hutboxes can be a bit wonky with peacock combos as well.

Come to think of it, a lot of it has to do with crossups. Most things involving her can be fixed with small timing adjustments or less/more hits of a normal. I honestly don't think it's a huge deal but it would be nice to have another look at them! and squigly too
 
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Tears in certain spots keep my opponent in place, I want them there after an air or ground throw to do so since I'm going to reset early after throw. These tears will never be on TOP of the throw. Isa's suggestion of having the throw purposefully detonate tears sounds nice. Then if a tear is on top of your throw, boom, more hitstun instead of shitty passive hitstun that ruins your combo off throw. I'm for this idea if it's not an awful one.

EDIT: RE Double balance, I know someone who doesn't want to speak up about it but thinks HLuger should be toned down. Sorry, I need to say -something-. I dunno if it's fine or not, but when you hear about it after every match.. I'm gonna at least bring it up.

I have some other stuff I need to go collect from people who don't want to talk in the beta thread now so I can put it on the table. :v
 
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her j. mp(?, painwheel move) into vortex resets. But I mean, that's 90% of her game so I wouldn't want that changed. People would flip out if that move was nerfed or taken away.
 
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MegamanDS said:
How do you punish double's gunshot at close range? I feel like her stepback is so big that no one on my team (Fukua, robo, para) can punish her. She can shoot the gun repeatedly and my cr. lk, mk doesn't reach her. I feel like maybe the amount she steps back can be shortened?

This was one of the things Mystery Person Who Won't Post suggested. They're of the opinion that being safe, that useful, stepping back that far, and getting you a full (unscaled?) combo is not ok.

edit: btw hluger is +0 at point blank anyways, you have to pb her out so the bullet will whiff, if you're trying to punish hluger on block in the corner I don't think you CAN
 
dekillsage said:
So you want her to be worse for the sake of having a more difficult time winning match ups?
I neither said nor implied that. Just want people's thoughts on the character.
Dolfy said:
I'm not really familiar with matchups outside of my own characters, but is double a HARD matchup for any character? I feel like this works both ways and it evens out.
I think she beats Big Band. Retail Double beats retail Peacock IMO but with the beta changes I'm not sure that's true anymore, I'd have to play it more. Can't really speak for other characters cause I don't main them.
Swiftfox-Dash said:
So the Peacock bang buff thing is pretty cool and all, but now I've had it happen where my opponent is in the corner and tries to jump at me, to which they meet M bang. Instead of bouncing into me for a combo, the bounce is so strong they actually go over my head, actually hurting my positioning and not letting me combo in the slightest. I think overall it's still better with the increased knockback, but now it has a chance of actually going over your head, so to speak.
Haven't had this happen yet but you did just remind me, I had a game on Friday where I did M Bang with my own back to the corner and I got the wallbounce into a combo. I am... assuming it's not supposed to work like that. I only saw that happen once so I'm not sure how hard it is to reproduce.

e:

MegamanDS said:
How do you punish double's gunshot at close range? I feel like her stepback is so big that no one on my team (Fukua, robo, para) can punish her. She can shoot the gun repeatedly and my cr. lk, mk doesn't reach her. I feel like maybe the amount she steps back can be shortened?
Making Double not move backwards so much when she shoots the gun would probably be a good change. It's kinda wild right now.
 
mcpeanuts said:
Haven't had this happen yet but you did just remind me, I had a game on Friday where I did M Bang with my own back to the corner and I got the wallbounce into a combo. I am... assuming it's not supposed to work like that. I only saw that happen once so I'm not sure how hard it is to reproduce.

I've seen this happen with retail mbang, granted, I was death crawling through the peacock at the time when I got hit by the backwards mbang into full combo, so that's a slightly diifferent scenario.
 
MegamanDS said:
How do you punish double's gunshot at close range? I feel like her stepback is so big that no one on my team (Fukua, robo, para) can punish her. She can shoot the gun repeatedly and my cr. lk, mk doesn't reach her. I feel like maybe the amount she steps back can be shortened?
L Gun is -4, M is -3 and H is +0 on block.

I don't think her guns really need a nerf since aside from them she has rather poor anti-airs and her reversals aren't great. Making them less safe on block would be fine but in terms of how far they step back and such I don't think that should change.

is double a HARD matchup for any character?
I've heard Eliza players say that Eliza really struggles vs Double.
 
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mcpeanuts said:
I neither said nor implied that. Just want people's thoughts on the character.

You did imply that.

MegamanDS said:
How do you punish double's gunshot at close range?

Training mode is pretty good in this game, ya know?

MegamanDS said:
She can shoot the gun repeatedly

It has a lot of recovery, so if you read it and dodge the bullet the CH punish is the easiest thing in the world to get. It's why doubles will do button -> gun, but if double does a string -> gun you can pbgc through it very easily, and if they stagger -> gun you can do a reversal in between the button -> gun.
 
mcpeanuts said:
Making Double not move backwards so much when she shoots the gun would probably be a good change. It's kinda wild right now.
Lex said:
L Gun is -4, M is -3 and H is +0 on block.

I don't think her guns really need a nerf since aside from them she has rather poor anti-airs and her reversals aren't great. Making them less safe on block would be fine but in terms of how far they step back and such I don't think that should change.

So H gun is not punishable on block, and punishable on whiff by 1 move (that I can convert off of) on my team of 3.

 
dekillsage said:
Okay, Cerebella is not one of those characters.
40 entrants is monthly level of entrants...why does top 8 matter here? Top 8 doesn't mean....
60? 80? 100? We don't often get more than ~40 entrants at our Majors, so idk what you want for a baseline.

Combo Breaker was the biggest and toughest tournament of the year, and I feel it's the one that's the best representation of today's game. There were three Bella players in Top 8, and they all lost. Every set where Bella was on the screen, except TJ vs 159Man (where I think anyone would agree that Peacock put in the majority of the work), the Bella player lost. There were 5 sets with Bella total.

I'm not saying Bella is bad/no one uses her/she doesn't do well in tournaments/top 8/etc. I'm saying there are characters who perform as well or better than her right now who are getting experiments, so what's the harm in requesting an experiment for her.

I didn't request any changes at first because I figured, hey, these beta experiments are already pretty set and probably won't change a whole lot outside of what they're intended to change (what I thought was primarily Fukua/Robo, cause they were kinda wonky). After all, Mike went to specific people to get specific changes. Now, though, there are 22 pages of changes with big experiments to over half the cast. So, I don't really see the reason not to ask anymore.

SonicFox5000 said:
Fukuas neutral is even better with these changes. Gonna repost essentially what I said in sgilluminati
I didn't care about m shadow with Fukua on point, I cared about it as an assist. I haven't found anything that makes it preferential to old m shadow as an assist. I liked the way it let me play Bella.
 
dekillsage said:
Training mode is pretty good in this game, ya know?



It has a lot of recovery, so if you read it and dodge the bullet the CH punish is the easiest thing in the world to get. It's why doubles will do button -> gun, but if double does a string -> gun you can pbgc through it very easily, and if they stagger -> gun you can do a reversal in between the button -> gun.
EDIT:

Even if it doesn't happen, it's something I'm gonna push for. It's just the 2 things of double I notice that every pro does is the air vortex reset similar like the Fukua players had and gun shot abuse.
 
MegamanDS said:
So H gun is not punishable on block, and punishable on whiff by 1 move (that I can convert off of) on my team of 3.

You could do dash light as any of your characters once you see it whiff, you could do j.HK as Fukua, you could do j.LP, j.HP as Parasoul, etc. Punishing it on whiff is not hard when you are that close.
 
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MegamanDS said:
So H gun is not punishable on block, and punishable on whiff by 1 move (that I can convert off of) on my team of 3.
With Robo and Parasoul I would assume you could dash and press a button. Did you try that? With Fukua idk
 
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MegamanDS said:
Trust me, I grind training mode pretty hard. I'm sure many characters have a sweet CH punish for it. I usually play the run away game when I start seeing some start to spam gun. I don't think I've ran into people that do string into gun. I feel like that's bad. I usually see gun + assist to cover all bases but even if I'm i a sweet spot, my team (I'm sure other characters are good) seems to struggle a bit.

I'm not saying nerf the gun, but just the step back portion of it. Let her keep the bounce, the stagger into reset and everything else.

Your video didn't show Fukua punishing it with Cr.hp -> fireball -> BFF, or Parasoul st.lp, or dash up + button. If you air block gun and land cancel its hella minus. Even if you don't get a punish she's not in a position to try and contest your pressure, it becomes a commitment. (This is when she misses like in the video you posted).

Move + assist covering all bases.... happens all the time. Pillar + assist, DP+Copter, fireball + assist, etc. This is not unique to luger. The step back she does actually lets get use it vs IAD people pretty reliably. There are a lot of spots where it doesn't even help stop people from doing that, though. This is her only semi safe special and it has so much recovery on it I'm sitting here thinking it could probably be improved a bit but I guess it's just me.
 
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dekillsage said:
Your video didn't show Fukua punishing it with Cr.hp -> fireball -> BFF, or Parasoul st.lp, or dash up + button. If you air block gun and land cancel its hella minus. Even if you don't get a punish she's not in a position to try and contest your pressure, it becomes a commitment. (This is when she misses like in the video you posted).

Move + assist covering all bases.... happens all the time. Pillar + assist, DP+Copter, fireball + assist, etc. This is not unique to luger. The step back she does actually lets get use it vs IAD people pretty reliably. There are a lot of spots where it doesn't even help stop people from doing that, though. This is her only semi safe special and it has so much recovery on it I'm sitting here thinking it could probably be improved a bit but I guess it's just me.
I 100% agree. I'm not disagreeing wtih you. My video was mistake and didn't get my point across. Double can stay as double. It's fine. I just always thought the step back was a pretty big distance.
 
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MegamanDS said:
I 100% agree. I'm not disagreeing wtih you. My video was mistake and didn't get my point across. Double can stay as double. It's fine. I just always thought the step back was a pretty big distance.

That's fine. I just don't want to see characters get nerfed for the sake of getting nerfed. Same with getting buffed.
 
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If I may put my thoughts in on Bella, I think she's really good where she stands. And while I believe she is fine as she is and just seems to be a happy medium (sort of all around good at most things), I wouldn't be opposed to simply trying out small QoL things as I don't feel she needs any overhauls or noticeable buffs. What I'd ask for personally is making copter x dynamo in the corner not go the wrong way at rare times, maybe a tiny buffer on run stop to help with 1 frame links, and perhaps making it to where c.lk into c.mk is more universal after MGR (still can never get it on Painwheel, and I think Zid said it dropped often on another character?)
 
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Step back matters to beat out another button, which lets it be used at all.
If she stood in place and fired that would be a huge nerf.

She STEPS BACK to her original location while still in a counter hit state after she finishes firing, not affecting whiff punishes.
She's also very tall so a lot of jumping buttons will hit her during this.

Gun shot isn't super silly in pressure or anything either, and you have to pay attention to your ranges to pick the better gunshots.
At close range, M is -3 so you're better to use H (+0) (If you're Filia / Fortune, jab beats all her buttons)
At far ranges like dash cLK sMP M Gun gets a little better so you'll opt for that (+2/3), and H Gun will whiff.
 
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Lawnba said:
Setting up tears to do set ups after throw is really fun and I would be bummed to see that go.
Wait, was there talk of this and I completely missed it? I mean, I don't use it that much but I don't see what's so broken about it that it needs to be taken away.
 
As frustrating as it is to have tears accidentally mess up throw conversions, I feel like it'd seem wrong to just lose your tears for successfully landing a throw.
 
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dekillsage said:
Wow guess I should have played Cerebella in top 8 to improve her stats so people can instead say Beowulf wasn't in top 8 and isn't any good.

i mean beo was in multiple top 8s (thanks to you, granted) and people still think he's bad at a high level
 
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